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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 16:07:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Ruciza
You are wrong in the sense that Recons are not designed as solo ships but as gang support ships, much like any other ship actually. Tracking disrupts are not only a tank for you, but for all your friends too.
<snip>
Comparing EWAR unfortunately leads nowhere, as you suddenly need to discuss EWAR and solve those issues before looking at Amarr Recons.
If you had a look at the complete thread, you will realize, that the Pilgrim is a solo ship and as such broken.
Suggested it should be a gang/fleet ship, then it plain lacks needed gang support features. As such it lacks most importantly: RANGE.
No matter how you look at it - in solo and gang it is plain broken.
My suggestion: forget about EWAR issues, forget about,... but look at a Pilgrim's role and give the Pilgrim what it needs to fill the role.
Sidenote: your attitude in posting is not nice at all. Here comes why...
Originally by: Ruciza Capless weapons are a counter to cap warfare. ACs are a counter to range disruption. Lamenting that Amarr recons are vulnerable to missiles is like lamenting that the Arazu must be able to solo a Vagabond. You have a fixation on soloing. They are NOT solo ships. Use them that way at your own risk.
1. you completly forgot (said it the nice way) that you can counter TD with playstyle. Not a module, not a specific ship, just by playstyle. 2. Amarr Recons are not only vulnerable to missiles, but also to blasters, lasers, rails,... any of those (see 1st). If you are in doubt, just have a look at the TD effectiveness chart in the EWAR thread. 3. You plain say: "You have a fixation on soloing" - accusation first in my direction.
Do us both a favor: learn to read the thread and please bring arguments. I gladly correct what is wrong, but your claims are plain pointless. __
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Cailais
Amarr W A R
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Posted - 2007.11.07 17:18:00 -
[242]
Im wondering, what if the recon bonus was changed from..
"20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount"
to this...
15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer efficiency.
So both the curse and pilgrim increase the amount of cap drained by 15% per level, whilst also reducing the modules activation cost by 15% per level.
Any thoughts?
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 17:23:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Aaron Mirrorsaver i thought the boost was 100 grid.
also who are you kidding making the max targetting range 48 km?
one good thing would be built in high resistance to ecm and damps for the pilgrim. or any reocon.
I wrote that post out of my head, without research. So if it was 100 grid - my fault.
About the range: the Pilgrim does not need more range. Look at the stats of my suggestion. Then look at what you can do - requires imho a load of skills (EvE-skills) and player skills to use, but... if you can you got a reason to *droool*
Like I said - give it time and think about it and you will realize that my suggestion offers loads of weaknesses but also incredible strong points. __
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 17:26:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Cailais Im wondering, what if the recon bonus was changed from..
"20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount"
to this...
15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer efficiency.
So both the curse and pilgrim increase the amount of cap drained by 15% per level, whilst also reducing the modules activation cost by 15% per level.
Any thoughts?
C.
You did not mention range when saying "efficiency". If one would only tweak NOS/Neut, then range is an issue for the Pilgrim. In case of the current Curse and its NOS/Neut range, this would imho fix the Curse completly. Maybe - not sure yet though - the Curse still could need some tweaks to its grid (like 100 more or so) and a thorough look at its cap. __
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.07 17:33:00 -
[245]
Name: Pilgrim Hull: Arbitrator Role: Force Recon Ship
Force recon ships are the cruiser-class equivalent of covert ops frigates. While not as resilient as combat recon ships, they are nonetheless able to do their job as reconnaissance vessels very effectively, due in no small part to their ability to interface with covert ops cloaking devices and set up covert cynosural fields for incoming Black Ops Battleships.
Developer: Carthum Conglomerate
Carthum ships are the very embodiment of the Amarrian warfare philosophy. Possessing sturdy armor and advanced weapon systems, they provide a nice mix of offense and defense. On the other hand, their electronic and shield systems tend to be rather limited.
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 25% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: 75% reduction to Energy Emissions Capacitor use and 50% reduction to Turret Destabilization capacitor use.
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.07 17:35:00 -
[246]
Name: Curse Hull: Arbitrator Role: Combat Recon Ship
Built to represent the last word in electronic warfare, combat recon ships have onboard facilities designed to maximize the effectiveness of electronic countermeasure modules of all kinds. Filling a role next to their class counterpart, the heavy assault ship, combat recon ships are the state of the art when it comes to anti-support support. They are also devastating adversaries in smaller skirmishes, possessing strong defensive capabilities in addition to their electronic superiority.
Developer: Khanid Innovation
In addition to robust electronics systems, the Khanid Kingdom's ships possess advanced armor alloys capable of withstanding a great deal of punishment. Generally eschewing the use of turrets, they tend to gear their vessels more towards close-range missile combat.
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 25% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range and 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.07 17:42:00 -
[247]
Edited by: Feng Schui on 07/11/2007 17:44:13 or even, a seperate module?
Energy Nosferatu
Description:
Neutralizes a portion of the energy in the target ship's capacitor. Can only be fit on the Amarr recon.
Attributes:
Activation time / duration: 12 seconds Energy Neutralized: 120 energy Energy Transferred: 60 energy Range: 15km
Fittings:
CPU: 10,000 tf Powergrid: 150mw
edit:
OR a skill:
Advanced Energy Emissions: Advanced understanding with Energy Emission Systems. Rank 6 skill 15% reduction in energy emissions capacitor use per level.
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.07 18:13:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Grytok on 07/11/2007 18:15:24 Edited by: Grytok on 07/11/2007 18:14:50 Edited by: Grytok on 07/11/2007 18:13:57 Pilgrim:
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level.
Attribute Tweak: 20% better Capacitor Recharge Rate
Curse:
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range and 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level.
Attribute Tweak: 20% better Capacitor Recharge Rate
Done, without making them FOTM.
EDITs: Colours and misspelling .
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 19:01:00 -
[249]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 07/11/2007 19:01:51
Originally by: Feng Schui Name: Pilgrim Hull: Arbitrator Role: Force Recon Ship <snip> Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 25% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: 75% reduction to Energy Emissions Capacitor use and 50% reduction to Turret Destabilization capacitor use.
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators
Some remarks: 1. I do like your basic idea here. 2. It imho needs the reduced Liquid Ozone Consumption. 3. Cargo bay is still an issue. A Capacitor booster is in most cases not needed, but not obsolete either. 4. Adding a general 75% reduction to Neut use for the ship makes it imho too easy. I would prefer a 15% reduction to Neut cap use per Recon level here. 5. Tracking disruptor cap use - similar to 4. Id prefer a 10% per Recon level. 6. The playstyle "fuel your tank" with enemy's tank is still obosolete which imho is a pitty. 7. Current problems with TDs are stille xistant with this change.
My five cent, as I truly believe that having high skills shouldnt be punished by adding important skills as ship imminent boni. But those tweaks are anyways flavors and minor tweaks :) __
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 19:05:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Feng Schui
Name: Curse Hull: Arbitrator Role: Combat Recon Ship
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 25% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range and 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level
My five cent: 1. From what I see, the Nano-Curse would still be the only viable setup. I do believe that this indicates a still at least semi-broken design... 2. Add to 1. it lacks versatility and it lacks still grid as it needs a cap booster. Due to the cap booster a mid slot is still missing. 3. In addition to 1. the self-fueling hield tank is not possible which is a pitty - as it was an itneresting and totally new playstyle. __
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 19:07:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Feng Schui Edited by: Feng Schui on 07/11/2007 17:44:13 or even, a seperate module?
Energy Nosferatu
Description:
Neutralizes a portion of the energy in the target ship's capacitor. Can only be fit on the Amarr recon.
Attributes:
Activation time / duration: 12 seconds Energy Neutralized: 120 energy Energy Transferred: 60 energy Range: 15km
Fittings:
CPU: 10,000 tf Powergrid: 150mw
edit:
OR a skill:
Advanced Energy Emissions: Advanced understanding with Energy Emission Systems. Rank 6 skill 15% reduction in energy emissions capacitor use per level.
The module: - creating an Amarr Recon only module would for sure upset people and tbh it sounds like patchwork (sorry for saying that openly *g*) - the skill would wreak havoc. Like the Neut Domi will start to rise as FOTM and it will rule like no tomorrow. An even more fearsome ship than ever before.
Just my five cents. Please tell where I am wrong. __
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 19:33:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 07/11/2007 19:33:35
Originally by: Grytok Pilgrim:
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level.
Attribute Tweak: 20% better Capacitor Recharge Rate
Curse:
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range and 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level.
Attribute Tweak: 20% better Capacitor Recharge Rate
Done, without making them FOTM.
EDITs: Colours and misspelling
With your tweaks you achieved the following: 1. The 5-low-slot Pilgrim now finally can use its 5th low-slot to its advantage (compared to Curse). Nice tweak and tbh it fits my personal taste ;) . 2. The Pilgrim is not longer that heavily dependant on a cap booster. 3. Pilgrim has a higher survivability which it direly needed. 4. The Curse can take advantage of the igher cap recharge.
Critique/suggestions a. Capacitor change for Pilgrim: it still needs one cap booster according first calculations... Seems as if the 20% cap increase is not enough and/or doesnt solve the cap issue at all. My suggestion: use the above mentioned "efficiency" instead of the capacitor recharge change. Thus with each recon level, the Neuts on a Pilgrim need less cap. In the end a Neut uses only like 25% of the cap per cycle than it does now. b. Pilgrim survivability: Besides the resist increase I would suggest a signature radius reduction. Why? A Pilgrim has a more than 10% higher sig radius than a Sacrilege. Where the Sacrilege has way more armor hp and even better resists. Imho a Pilgrim sig radius should be max 110m3, maybe even less when tweaking the armor resists. It just happened now that I noticed that 140m3 for Sacrilege and 156m3 for Pilgrim is a *sorry* plain stupid difference. Totally out of whack and should be considered a typo in regards to the 156m3 for Pilgrim. c. Pilgrim still lacks cargo bay (cap boosters might still be needed) d. Same as c. for Curse - cargo bay to small e. The Nano-Curse is still the superior choice. In fact your tweak increased a Nano-Curses viability but didnt add versatiltiy to the game. I strongly believe that versatility is needed. f. Drone bay is still an issue when next patch comes in. g. There is still a mid slot issue - one mid slot missing.
My five cents, please dont hit me ;)
ATM I ask myself, how many dps a NOS and a Neutralizer has. It is an interesting question, difficult to find out, but definitly worth to answer... I guess I will sit down and calculate it if I can.... or anyone else already did? __
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.07 19:36:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Hydrogen Some remarks: 1. I do like your basic idea here. 2. It imho needs the reduced Liquid Ozone Consumption.
I'm not sure it would need the liquid ozone reduction, since I'm of the mind there are alot of better options for popping a cyno rather than using a recon.
Quote: 3. Cargo bay is still an issue. A Capacitor booster is in most cases not needed, but not obsolete either. 4. Adding a general 75% reduction to Neut use for the ship makes it imho too easy. I would prefer a 15% reduction to Neut cap use per Recon level here.
With a 75% reduction, as well as with energy emissions 5, a cap booster wouldn't be needed, however this option still requires some skill to play, since you'll need to manage your cap, the opponents cap, your ewar, and your tank.
Quote: 5. Tracking disruptor cap use - similar to 4. Id prefer a 10% per Recon level. 6. The playstyle "fuel your tank" with enemy's tank is still obosolete which imho is a pitty.
this actual change, is apart of my whole stealth ship changes. It doesn't really make sense w/o the changes to the other ships (all of the force recons got a cap reduction to their "primary defense" modules - ewar / speed (speed in the case of the rapier)
Quote: 7. Current problems with TDs are still existant with this change.
the 25% bonus would counter the nerf, but you still would only be able to use 1 script per TD
Quote: (EDIT: 8. The upcoming drone bandwidth change is not addressed here :( )
I've always fought with 5 mediums, 5 lights.. as such, I'm actually decently pleased with the drone bandwidth.
Originally by: Curse stuff from Hydro stuff
I flew a curse post-nerf, and its still overpowered with sensor damps. However, with the TD bonus - 125% bonus to TD - the curse will need to choose his fights a bit better, since damps on a curse will be crap.
Originally by: Module / skill stuff from Hyrdo stuff
just giving some options however, those would be the very last option.
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:58:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Feng Schui
<snip>
just giving some options however, those would be the very last option.
In answer to your points: 1. about liquid ozone reduction I am plain unsure on future roles. Also I got no clue what some Capital pilots would say if the Pilgrim didnt have it anymore. 2. 75% ship ability to cap use of Neuts = 15% cap use reduction for Neuts per Recon level at Recon 5. Please keep in mind, that the Pilgrim is no Cap-wonder - repper,... use cap too. TBH I didnt do the maths, so I dont know for sure. 3. 50% ship bonus to TD cap use = 10% per Recon level less cap use at Recon 5 4. drone bandwidth - I actually dont know, how you use your Pilgrim and for which purpose. To me it is a sudden drop by 80 dps. Considering it was/is 304 dps total for me, this is a huge drop by 26% +. And 304 dps by drones which can be shot down is not impressing at all, but still close to the 315dps maximum for current Pilgrim. 5. You flew a Curse post nerf... *sigh* please stop it. You flew a Nano-Curse, the only viable setup for a Curse. The Nano-Curse might be overpowered, the Curse as such is not. __
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.08 00:48:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Feng Schui on 08/11/2007 00:48:15
Originally by: Hydrogen
In answer to your points: 1. about liquid ozone reduction I am plain unsure on future roles. Also I got no clue what some Capital pilots would say if the Pilgrim didnt have it anymore.
Capital Ship Pilot: "Recons could launch cynos?" =p
Quote: 2. 75% ship ability to cap use of Neuts = 15% cap use reduction for Neuts per Recon level at Recon 5. Please keep in mind, that the Pilgrim is no Cap-wonder - repper,... use cap too. TBH I didnt do the maths, so I dont know for sure.
3. 50% ship bonus to TD cap use = 10% per Recon level less cap use at Recon 5
These would be straight role bonuses, whether recon 1 or recon 5. For the neuts, keep in mind also the energy emission skill = 5% per level. So it would have a 100% reduction of cap use with those.
Quote: 4. drone bandwidth - I actually dont know, how you use your Pilgrim and for which purpose. To me it is a sudden drop by 80 dps. Considering it was/is 304 dps total for me, this is a huge drop by 26% +. And 304 dps by drones which can be shot down is not impressing at all, but still close to the 315dps maximum for current Pilgrim.
5 mediums, 5 lights. Its actually good against people that realize that a pilgrim's sole dps is drones.
Quote: 5. You flew a Curse post nerf... *sigh* please stop it. You flew a Nano-Curse, the only viable setup for a Curse. The Nano-Curse might be overpowered, the Curse as such is not.
Yea, it was a fotm nano-damp curse, I admit that. Also the reason I have a distaste of them =p Took on a Myrmidon and Geddon.. I won. I really should have lost. But of course, take into account pilot skills as well. <-- disclaimer
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.08 01:58:00 -
[256]
Edited by: Grytok on 08/11/2007 02:03:13 Edited by: Grytok on 08/11/2007 02:02:11 Edited by: Grytok on 08/11/2007 02:00:18 The suggested 75% bonus for Neutralizers would actually be a little bit too much I think, because you allready get 25% by the Skill Energy Emission Systems. So maybe 5% per Recon Ship LvL instead would be just right.
But giving the Pilgrim an additional Bonus cries for additional Boni for all the other Force Recons as well, if you get rid of the Cyno-Gen Bonus. TBH, nobody uses Force Recons to build cynos anyways these days, so it's a wasted bonus imho nowadays.
So maybe we can go with it like this...
New Pilgrim
Amarr Cruiser: 5% to Armor Resistances and 10% to Drone damage and hitpoints per level.
Recon Ship: 20% to Neut/NOS transfer amount and 5% to Neutralizer activation cost per level.
Role Bonus: 99% reduction in CPU needs for Covert Ops Cloaking devices and 100% reduction for targeting delay.
*Notice the new Role Bonus where you only get 99% to Covert Ops Cloaking Device instead 100% with ReconShip LvL 5? I think that this should level it somehow with the targeting delay bonus added.*
-----------------------------------
New Curse
Amarr Cruiser: 10% to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% to Drone damage and hitpoints per level.
Recon Ship: 20% to Neut/NOS transfer amount and 40% to Neut/NOS range per level.
! Change Curse slotlayout to: 5 High / 5 Med / 5 Low !
-----------------------------------
The Pilgrim would be able to sustain it's Modules without CapInjector somehow, as the Neuts would take only 50% Cap, if trained up to LvL 5 and it could tank quiet good.
The Curse would be given versatility by changing the slotlayout either to run a proper Armor-tank and use TDs, or to speed-tank, but without the option, to speed-passive-shield-tank, while using TDs. It would have issues with sustaining it's capacitor somehow, but thats the diversity in full-gank vs. tank-mode.
EDIT: Both ships still would not be uber, as they get their whack with the Bandwith, only allowing for 5 Medium Drones. Also as Drones can be shot down and not scooped/redeployed anymore effectively, they're very vulnerable in their DPS.
EDIT: Textwall and spelling .
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.08 10:08:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Grytok
New Pilgrim
Amarr Cruiser: 5% to Armor Resistances and 10% to Drone damage and hitpoints per level.
Recon Ship: 20% to Neut/NOS transfer amount and 5% to Neutralizer activation cost per level.
Role Bonus: 99% reduction in CPU needs for Covert Ops Cloaking devices and 100% reduction for targeting delay.
*Notice the new Role Bonus where you only get 99% to Covert Ops Cloaking Device instead 100% with ReconShip LvL 5? I think that this should level it somehow with the targeting delay bonus added.*
-----------------------------------
New Curse
Amarr Cruiser: 10% to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% to Drone damage and hitpoints per level.
Recon Ship: 20% to Neut/NOS transfer amount and 40% to Neut/NOS range per level.
! Change Curse slotlayout to: 5 High / 5 Med / 5 Low !
I do not like to say it, but your suggestions sound pretty balanced.
Let me tell you what it is I do not like or feel uneasy with:
1. I am unsure on the Pilgrim's survivability still with the 5% armor bonus. Granted it is higher, but the Pilgrim is plain not right in its base stats. Having high armor hp and neglected shields it plain should already have higher base resists. Making a bonus for something which the ship should already have (already lacks a high slot) doesnt sound right. I did not do the maths, so this is an assumption and general feeling only.
2. Some people hate me for always adding it. Esspecially a Pilgrim should vanish from local when cloaked. Actually Id take "vanish from local" over "no target delay" anytime. With the "vanish from local" instead "no target delay" I would *drool* when CCP implemented your suggestion.
3 The Curse - phewwwwww tough one. You would kill shield tanked Curses (which are somehow still viable). On the other hand the Curse is Khanid and not at all inline with Khanid design currently (more so with your change). Additionally NOS/Neut is a Curse's prime weapon and the Curse has HUGE fitting problems when starting to fit 3 or more and actually use them. Also Curse has general fitting problems. It does not "feel" right at all.
Curse sidenote: A Nano-Curse is so dangerous as speed, damps and NOS/Neut range/drain complement each other so nicely. Both just fit very well together. Esspecially when other Nano ships close in to the Nano-Curse.
If - and only if - the dampener change really ensures, that a Nano-Neut-Damp-Curse doesnt work (by taking away the Damp part) your change could be nice, except: the Curse lacks 95 grid exactly. 95 grid is exactly what is needed to fit a base setup with a full neut rack, MARII and MWD II with max fitting skills. Changes to tank to dual-rep or plated would then require to drop Neuts for Missile slots.
On another sidenote: it feels bad to have a Khanid ship without missile bonus. Somehow a mix should be viable with like 3 heavy missile launchers (with a bonus) and 2 Neuts. Or a 4 missile launcher/1Neut combo with huge tank and TDs,... DPS of Heavy Missile Launcher (only real viable missile launchers for Curse due to range) are pitiful atm.
Keeping all that in mind, I would prefer a tweaked Curse like that:
New Curse
Amarr Cruiser: 10% to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% to Heavy Missile Launcher ROF.
Recon Ship: 20% to Neut/NOS transfer amount and 40% to Neut/NOS range per level.
! Change Curse slotlayout to: 5 High / 5 Med / 5 Low ! +95 grid 75MBit drone bandwidth __
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Holly Chance
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Posted - 2007.11.08 11:41:00 -
[258]
Unfortunately, any changes which will allow the Curse and Pilgrim to be solo ships will almost certainly not be implemented. Recon ships are meant to be stealthy gang ewar support, nothing more. If you take a look at the capabilities of the other races' Recons, the Curse and Pilgrim are the only ones that could ever effectively solo. Sure they have a more offensive type of ewar, but CCP will not return them to the old days, regardless of the logic put forward. The only way we're going to get a Curse-equivalent again is if a new ship type is introduced - which like I said, I've been playing with. I've actually got the base stats and bonuses sorted out, but after looking over them again, I realise quite how obscenely powerful they are... back to the drawing board for a while -_-
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Mortis Tyrathlion
Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.08 11:42:00 -
[259]
Grah, that was me...
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Dlardrageth
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.11.08 12:17:00 -
[260]
On a small side-note, it would really be interesting to get some figures about the usage/sales of different EWAR types in the next economic blog. I'm willing to wager that TDs have among the lowest sales and will degrade further with the EWAR "modifications". If the situation weren't as it unfortunately is, that e.g. the Curse fares much better ATM using the EWAR modules of another race instead of its own ones, thus effectively ignoring the "awesome" bonus it gets on TDs... Rather obscene, tbh, like the need to eventually fit projectile turrets to an Amarr ship because with lasers it simply doesn't work like it should.
Assuming the devs don't want to change anything considering the basic Amarr Recon design. Why not simply boost the TDs instead of the Caldari ECM then? It still would leave the Curse hard-pressed to solo, as it will still be vulnerable to missiles+web, it would still leave the Pilgrim quite vulnerable due to tanking issues. But... at least it would give those ships back more of a useful role in gangs/fleets. Even 10% to TD effectiveness/level thus does not have to be the tip of the iceberg...
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.08 12:24:00 -
[261]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 08/11/2007 12:25:52
Originally by: Holly Chance Unfortunately, any changes which will allow the Curse and Pilgrim to be solo ships will almost certainly not be implemented.
Then the Pilgrim will stay broken or needs a total revamp. Also "solo" as you use it is overrated. Nowadays a Curse runnign around solo dies a fast death (except Nano-Curse which will change now anyways). Faster than a Hac. These changes make it playable in gangs. With damp change, the solo I-win button Nano-Damp-NOS/Neut Curse is dead - which is imho a good thing.
Originally by: Holly Chance Recon ships are meant to be stealthy gang ewar support, nothing more. If you take a look at the capabilities of the other races' Recons, the Curse and Pilgrim are the only ones that could ever effectively solo. Sure they have a more offensive type of ewar, but CCP will not return them to the old days, regardless of the logic put forward. The only way we're going to get a Curse-equivalent again is if a new ship type is introduced - which like I said, I've been playing with. I've actually got the base stats and bonuses sorted out, but after looking over them again, I realise quite how obscenely powerful they are... back to the drawing board for a while -_-
The Pilgrim can simply not be compared to other races force recons. I recommend actually reading this whole thread :) All that as Amarr EWAR cant be compared to other EWAR at all. Changing Pilgrim with gang support in mind, similar to other Recons, will make it a beast which pwns even more solo. This is simply due to the EWAR it has.
Example? For gang support, the Pilgrim needs range, resulting in a NOS/Neut range increase. This will remove the range boundary in solo and make it a killer.
Alternatively one could remove drone bay and drastically icnrease NOS/Neut effectiveness. Nice gang support, but then you see 2 men gangs pwning each and everything. Eg Pilgrim and Sacrilege (Sac with Improved cloak).
Whatever you say about inline with others and solo: I still do believe that there must be a ship which punishes solo ratting in 0.0 by our Ravens and others. Pilgrim is well suited to do so if it vanishes from local. __
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Diomidis
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.11.08 14:10:00 -
[262]
I keep revisiting this thread...really nice input and suggestions by more than a few lads. Some points:
1) When using numbers, % of ships used, total number of Amarr vs. other Races players etc, why Recons are and should be a "minority" while HAS and other T2 cruisers shouldn't?
Why the "few in numbers" Minmatar players get to play with a solo pwn mobile that can choose it's fights, outrun and/or speed tank anything stronger while pwning anything faster that it's not careful enough? Vagas are fine, creating a class of their own, while someone could easily claim that they should be plain "anti-support" vessels, only being able to out-dps and brake frig class ships...
This "fleet support" thing is silly...fleet battles are enough boring as they are, and surely a BS thing...small gangs tho are fun, relay heavily on personal skills and tactics and help you improve and invent knew ways of pwing or at least surviving.
2) Nerfing everything isn't a solution, the Amarr Recons are broken in every aspect tho: dps, ewar, drones, speed...nothing is up to par according to their role. A ship that uses un-bonuced ewar and performs way better than it's specialized ewar modules plain suckz and should be enough to mobilize CCP for rethinking the way TDs work on these ships. The same goes for NOS/Neuts. I-win exploits in cap killing by other races led to nurfs that completely gimped Amarr Recons, and left the "cheaters" using the same tactics (like Domis) almost intact it this role.
Sorry for tiring u out with this long post...just my 2(xx) cents.
Help us fly more Recons as fighters...@*#$&(!@# support.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.08 14:38:00 -
[263]
Well, 65 days, 13 hours; and if nothing is done, I'll start training for the Rapier
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.08 18:46:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Feng Schui Well, 65 days, 13 hours; and if nothing is done, I'll start training for the Rapier
Why that specific time? __
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Aaron Mirrorsaver
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2007.11.08 20:26:00 -
[265]
certainly any of the more recent suggestions on ths page of the thread would be better than what ccp did.
R.E.C.O.N. is recruiting
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Cailais
Amarr W A R
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Posted - 2007.11.08 22:05:00 -
[266]
Yeeehaa! Got a reply from the devs in GD - here it is:
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
Originally by: Cailais
Noooooo! what about the pilgrim!!!!
/me sobs
C.
OK, really last reply here:
I fly the Curse and the Pilgrim myself. I think the Curse is a damn fine PVP ship (I'd show you some pretty cool killmails if I could). The Pilgrim however might need some loving, especially in regards to the range it's doomed to fight at. But on the other hand, you have to realize that all the similar recons for the other races (falcon, arazu and rapier) have next to no damage output and are pretty useless solo.
Pilgrim still does its role in small gangs / fleets.
I don't agree with Zulupark with regard to the pilgrims role in gangs/fleets on account of its range issues - but perhaps theres a dim light upon the horizon: dont trash your pilgrims just yet!
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.08 22:06:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Aaron Mirrorsaver certainly any of the more recent suggestions on ths page of the thread would be better than what ccp did.
It is not about what CCP did decide for those ships. It is plain that the consequences of the NOS nerf were app not that obvious. Just hoping to be able to bring it to their attention....
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Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
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Posted - 2007.11.08 22:50:00 -
[268]
Just dropping by to check out the current status of the Amarr recons - Still Broken - just what I thought... -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amarr - getting screwed since 2005. |
Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.09 02:46:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Originally by: Feng Schui Well, 65 days, 13 hours; and if nothing is done, I'll start training for the Rapier
Why that specific time?
Thats when these misc skills I've been meaning to train, and recon 5, are finished.
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.09 09:30:00 -
[270]
Oha, actually I was thinking about retraining too, except...
1. fully specced for Amarr Recon 2. training new ship lines atm so no time to do.. :( __
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