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Damned Force	Posted - 2007.10.26 13:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Axos V Maybe you should understand the principle of multiple %'s. (It's standard GCSE math) Lets make it simple 1 missile from the Golem = 2 from a Raven Lets say the chance for a defender to hit is 25% So there's 25% chance that a Golem missile is destroyed Where as there's a 6.25% that both Raven missiles are destroyed (25% x 25%) Chances that both surive Golem = 75% Raven = 56.25% Chance that 1 is destroyed Golem = 0% Raven = 37.5% Lets now factor that over the equivilent of 100missiles (so the Golem gets 50) So the Golem is 75% effective The Raven is 75% effective (56.25% + (37.5%/2)) divide 37.5% by 2 as only 1 missile hits. But we all know the most probably usually happens b4 the bad happens (except for where ecm is concerned) If defenders are chance based, and that chance is bigger than 0% how the hell can be the chance that 1 is destroyed on the GOLEM = 0%?????????
Sevis	Posted - 2007.10.26 13:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Malachi Nefzen Pally is also a worthless needs: BS: 5% ROF & 5% Max Capacitor Marauders: 7.5% Laser Tracking & 7.5% Armor Rep Amount I disagree! New Pally BS: 10% cap use & 5% Max Capacitor Marauders: 7.5% tracking & 5% Armor resist +1 Low Slot 500cpu 15850pg 105,000,000 kg Go ahead, play with it.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.26 13:29:00 - [33] Edited by: d026 on 26/10/2007 13:32:06 Edited by: d026 on 26/10/2007 13:31:16 Originally by: Gamesguy A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km. I dont know how you got that number. I get arround 1300 DPS out of the Golem with: 25% ROF 3 x BCU 4 x TII Sieges with Rage 5 x Hammerhead II All skills LVL And arround 1200 DPS without drones.. Mind post your setup? Still dont get your concern a CNR dishes out way more dmg:)
Axos V	Posted - 2007.10.26 14:14:00 - [34] Originally by: Damned Force Originally by: Axos V Maybe you should understand the principle of multiple %'s. (It's standard GCSE math) Lets make it simple 1 missile from the Golem = 2 from a Raven Lets say the chance for a defender to hit is 25% So there's 25% chance that a Golem missile is destroyed Where as there's a 6.25% that both Raven missiles are destroyed (25% x 25%) Chances that both surive Golem = 75% Raven = 56.25% Chance that 1 is destroyed Golem = 0% Raven = 37.5% Lets now factor that over the equivilent of 100missiles (so the Golem gets 50) So the Golem is 75% effective The Raven is 75% effective (56.25% + (37.5%/2)) divide 37.5% by 2 as only 1 missile hits. But we all know the most probably usually happens b4 the bad happens (except for where ecm is concerned) If defenders are chance based, and that chance is bigger than 0% how the hell can be the chance that 1 is destroyed on the GOLEM = 0%????????? If you read it properly.... we factor that 1 missile from the Golem = 2 from a Raven The Golem can't launch half a missile.... muppet.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.26 14:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Kamikaaazi did anyone check golems PG? It cant be fitted for pvp. No room for 4 siege, mwd and cap injector. If you fit it with cruises then i has 300 dps before bcs-s and thats ****. Worthless ship if you ask me. Gamesguy posted a very nice set-up for it actually in one of the torp change threads.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.26 15:14:00 - [36] Originally by: StonerReakingHavok [############################# ------------ Raven------- ------------ 6 * 1.25 = 7.5 (6 launchers, 25 ROF -- Raven) 1 Missile per volley (6) are shot down, nullifying 16.66667% of DPS. For simplicity I'll round to the nearest whole number. 17. 7.5 * (1.00-.17) = 6.225 ------------ Golem------- ------------ 4 * 2 = 8 (4 Launchers, 100% Damage) 1 Missile per volley (4) is shot down, nullifying 25% of DPS. 8 * (1.00-.25) = 6.00 ########################## You can not say the Golems DPS = The Ravens. Its less than the Ravens in Rev3. Its a considerable amount less than the CNR in Rev3. How many T1 BS's out-dps their T2 Marauder Counterpart for their primary role? You made a mistake calculating the Raven dps. 25% damage isn't equal to -25% Rof. 1/0.75= 1.33, so 33% dps increase. The Golem suffer from a severe design flaw: it's explosion velocity/TP bonuses are geared toward torpedoes, which are good only at pve, while the tractor beam, cargo and bonus to active tanking are geared toward pve. There's a lack of coherence that hurt the ship more than a mere DPS issue. That, or the Golem is supposed to use torps with AB, TP, and a robust shield tank, but in that case it's 8 mid slots that are needed, and a better cap recharge. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.26 16:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Kamikaaazi did anyone check golems PG? It cant be fitted for pvp. No room for 4 siege, mwd and cap injector. If you fit it with cruises then i has 300 dps before bcs-s and thats ****. Worthless ship if you ask me. Gamesguy posted a very nice set-up for it a ctually in one of the torp changethreads. It was a raven setup not a Golem setup. Im not sure if you can fit a Golem that effectively. Gonna wait till somebody updates EFT to find that out:)
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.10.26 16:55:00 - [38] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Gamesguy posted a very nice set-up for it actually in one of the torp change threads. The golem loses one low so that's either a chunk of the armor tank or damage gone. Plus who would fly the golem with a paper thin passive tank when it gets an active tanking bonus :X.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.26 17:46:00 - [39] Originally by: SiLeNTFoRCe Golem does need some major assistance. Caldari took a major hit when our Tier 3 BS was the rokh giving us no chance to compete with something like the hyperion, and now they've done it again. A CNR would do much more dmg then the golem and would prolly be a better bet even with the t2 resistance of the golem (which is only going to be a very slight difference after normal tank is applied). The ship may be set rigged for "long" warfare but still wouldn't be worth it in the long run. Doesn't matter how long you can sit there and fight for if you can't kill anything. %5 ROF bonus is deff necessary!!! (dont want to dominate just want to be able to put up a fight) Then use a CNR... Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.26 19:09:00 - [40] In an interview in Germany (I forgot the event, if someone remembers what it was called post it) one of the CCP devs said there was going to be a T2 Mission runner focused battleship made. So for the people saying "It isnt a mission runner ship" they must think that particular T2 Battleship isnt designed yet. State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007
Malachi Nefzen Caldari Insane Decision	Posted - 2007.10.26 19:23:00 - [41] Edited by: Malachi Nefzen on 26/10/2007 19:25:26 Originally by: Gamesguy A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km. With an ROF bonus, lv5 skills, and faction ammo a golem would do ~1350 DPS, IF THE TARGET WAS PAINTED
BAteh Amarr Taggart Transdimensional Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.26 20:03:00 - [42] Of course Paladin sucks. It's Amarr. CCP continues to make Amarrians suck more. And more. Signed, an Amarr.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.26 21:52:00 - [43] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 26/10/2007 14:14:30 Originally by: Gamesguy A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km. I dont know how you got that number. I get arround 1300 DPS out of the Golem with: 25% ROF 3 x BCU 4 x TII Sieges with Rage 5 x Hammerhead II All skills LVL V And arround 1200 DPS without drones.. Mind post your setup? Still dont get your concern a CNR dishes out way more dmg:) Boot up eft. Fit a raven with 6 sieges and 3 BCUs(load rage), use the all lvl 5 skill character, check dps(it is 743 dps, 711 with faction). 7431.33(torp buff)1.33(-25% firing rate that people want)=1314 DPS. 5 hammerhead IIs do 158 DPS, 1314+158=1472 DPS. So I was off by 28, big deal, with faction torps you're still doing 1415 dps.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.26 21:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Malachi Nefzen Edited by: Malachi Nefzen on 26/10/2007 19:25:26 Originally by: Gamesguy A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km. With an ROF bonus, lv5 skills, and faction ammo a golem would do ~1350 DPS, IF THE TARGET WAS PAINTED I guess its a good thing the golem has 7 mids and a painting bonus isnt it.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.26 22:25:00 - [45] Originally by: Sevis New Pally BS: 10% cap use & 5% Max Capacitor Marauders: 7.5% tracking & 5% Armor resist +1 Low Slot 500cpu 14550pg 105,000,000 kg you fail at understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the apoc. the ship can already tank very well. its t2 version does not need to be boosted that much in this regard while ignoring the lack of damage dealing capability in the original. the ship does not need a 10% capuse reduction bonus...half the turrets already does this pretty well. most people have figured it out by now: 4 turrets with 100% capuse = 8 turrets with 50%. it does need additional damage or range to make it worthwile over the apoc or navy apoc for missions (not to mention the abaddon). apoc/navy apoc can already tank fine and more than enough for lvl4s. what they lack is damage. neither the joke currently on the testserver nor your idea provide that.
Jinmie	Posted - 2007.10.26 22:31:00 - [46] Originally by: Sevis Edited by: Sevis on 26/10/2007 14:15:17 Originally by: Malachi Nefzen Pally is also a worthless needs: BS: 5% ROF & 5% Max Capacitor Marauders: 7.5% Laser Tracking & 7.5% Armor Rep Amount I disagree! New Pally BS: 10% cap use & 5% Max Capacitor Marauders: 7.5% tracking & 5% Armor resist +1 Low Slot 500cpu 14550pg 105,000,000 kg Go ahead, play with it. Edit: Woops, gave it too much grid. Fixed. You will never get resists that high, think about balance.
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Gamesguy Boot up eft. Fit a raven with 6 sieges and 3 BCUs(load rage), use the all lvl 5 skill character, check dps(it is 743 dps, 711 with faction). 7431.33(torp buff)1.33(-25% firing rate that people want)=1314 DPS. 5 hammerhead IIs do 158 DPS, 1314+158=1472 DPS. So I was off by 28, big deal, with faction torps you're still doing 1415 dps. Ahh a "gamesguy" arguement about balance. Well where to begin: Thank you for admitting that your using EFT to determine the DPS and setting all skills to Lvl 5. I'm glad you did because at least your being honest. I happen to have a friend that just started Eve a couple months ago, and I have his API to help him with skills. For Kicks, I created a new plan for him using only the skills relevant to getting that 1415 dps. Starting today, October 26th, 2007 he will be able to fly a Golem (at level 1 Marauders) using the Torpedos and Hammerhead II drones and all the T2 fittings he'd need. ....He'll be rocking it up in his Golem (marauders level 1) at 1415 dps (if they gave it the ROF bonus) on April 15, 2009. So what your saying is: "Look at the DPS when I buy premium gear, Faction Torpedos and have all level 5 skills!!" Ahh, if someone is going to spend multi-billions on a ship and fire off faction ammo and have 2 years worth of skills SPECIFICALLY for that one ship, should they not be doing a lot of DPS???? I notice your signature, the whole "Dont nerf my carrier" sig thats going around. Isnt that the basis for your entire case against nerfing carriers? You've put in multiple billions of isk into your ship and 6 months + training time to fly it.... So you guys feel you deserve to own everyone. Maybe... Maybe not. But how can you turn around and argue against a Raven/Golem pilot doing the exact same thing? Exactly how much DPS does your Carrier do right now, Gamesguy? Maybe I should EFT a carrier and grant "all level 5 skills" and toss on some premium gear/ammo/etc..... Lets see your DPS. If you can justify that, then so can the Raven/Golem pilot because in reality they dont have ALL level 5 skills and premium fittings. EFT DPS != Real Dps. State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:21:00 - [48] Originally by: Futureface01 Ahh a "gamesguy" arguement about balance. Well where to begin: Thank you for admitting that your using EFT to determine the DPS and setting all skills to Lvl 5. I'm glad you did because at least your being honest. I happen to have a friend that just started Eve a couple months ago, and I have his API to help him with skills. For Kicks, I created a new plan for him using only the skills relevant to getting that 1415 dps. Starting today, October 26th, 2007 he will be able to fly a Golem (at level 1 Marauders) using the Torpedos and Hammerhead II drones and all the T2 fittings he'd need. ....He'll be rocking it up in his Golem (marauders level 1) at 1415 dps (if they gave it the ROF bonus) on April 15, 2009. Ah I love those arguments, did you happen to include learning skills? Didnt think so. Quote: So what your saying is: "Look at the DPS when I buy premium gear, Faction Torpedos and have all level 5 skills!!" "Premium gear"? Its a standard t2 fit you muppet. Everyone I know(including myself) uses faction ammo, as they are generally far superior to the t2 short range ammo. As for lvl 5 skills, I know lots of people with surgical strike 5, rapid firing 5, etc. Ok not a lot of people will have torp spec 5, so take 2% off that dps, but this can be made up with implants fairly easilly. In addition, all ship comparisons are made with max skills. How is it fair to use less than perfect skills for one ship and then compare to another with perfect skills? Its not. So the standard is everyone uses max skills to equalize the playing field. Quote: Ahh, if someone is going to spend multi-billions on a ship and fire off faction ammo and have 2 years worth of skills SPECIFICALLY for that one ship, should they not be doing a lot of DPS???? Thats bull**. Multi-billion? The Marauders will probably end up costing around 600mil to buy. In addition, you have to balance vs other ships in its class. Its ridiculous for the golem to so vastly outdamage the vargur from further away AND out-tank it at the same time. What did the Vargur pilot also not spent this "2 years of training" to get into his ship? Quote: I notice your signature, the whole "Dont nerf my carrier" sig thats going around. Isnt that the basis for your entire case against nerfing carriers? You've put in multiple billions of isk into your ship and 6 months + training time to fly it.... So you guys feel you deserve to own everyone. Maybe... Maybe not. But how can you turn around and argue against a Raven/Golem pilot doing the exact same thing? It takes MUCH less time to get into a marauder compared to a carrier. And marauders are balanced against other ships in its class, carriers do not have another ship in its class to compare to. Quote: Exactly how much DPS does your Carrier do right now, Gamesguy? Maybe I should EFT a carrier and grant "all level 5 skills" and toss on some premium gear/ammo/etc..... Lets see your DPS. If you can justify that, then so can the Raven/Golem pilot because in reality they dont have ALL level 5 skills and premium fittings. EFT DPS != Real Dps. "Premium gear"? You call a fairly standard t2 fitting "premium gear and ammo"? Carriers are balanced around their max theoretical DPS as well. The often quoted 100dps/fighter number includes fighter V, a rank TWELVE skill. Its not some vast conspiracy where everyone uses less than perfect numbers for other ships than use max skills for caldari ships. This is THE standard for ship comparisons. And a 1400-1500 golem that can fire out to 30km and use capless weapons is ******ly unbalanced in pvp.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:49:00 - [49] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 01:53:15 Originally by: Gamesguy Boot up eft. Fit a raven with 6 sieges and 3 BCUs(load rage), use the all lvl 5 skill character, check dps(it is 743 dps, 711 with faction). 7431.33(torp buff)1.33(-25% firing rate that people want)=1314 DPS. 5 hammerhead IIs do 158 DPS, 1314+158=1472 DPS. So I was off by 28, big deal, with faction torps you're still doing 1415 dps. hmm weired i somwhere lost 1-200 dps:) Anyhow CNR dishes out 1370 dps after the torp buff with 4 x bcu/Siege II w Rage/Hammerhead II's. Imho 1450 dps for the golem wouldn't be so over the top...
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:52:00 - [50] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 01:49:48 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 26/10/2007 14:14:30 Originally by: Gamesguy A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km. I dont know how you got that number. I get arround 1300 DPS out of the Golem with: 25% ROF 3 x BCU 4 x TII Sieges with Rage 5 x Hammerhead II All skills LVL V And arround 1200 DPS without drones.. Mind post your setup? Still dont get your concern a CNR dishes out way more dmg:) Boot up eft. Fit a raven with 6 sieges and 3 BCUs(load rage), use the all lvl 5 skill character, check dps(it is 743 dps, 711 with faction). 7431.33(torp buff)1.33(-25% firing rate that people want)=1314 DPS. 5 hammerhead IIs do 158 DPS, 1314+158=1472 DPS. So I was off by 28, big deal, with faction torps you're still doing 1415 dps. hmm weired i somwhere lost 100 dps:) Anyhow CNR dishes out 1,37k dps after the torp buff with 4 x bcu/Siege II w Rage/Hammerhead II's. Imho 1,41k for the golem (full gank/also 4 x bcu) wouldn't be so over the top... 1. You're comparing rage with faction. 2. You try fitting CNR with 7 Siege launcher IIs lol, have fun with that.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:54:00 - [51] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 01:54:36 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 01:49:48 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 26/10/2007 14:14:30 Originally by: Gamesguy A golem with a 5% rof bonus would do 1500 DPS, capless, out to 30km. I dont know how you got that number. I get arround 1300 DPS out of the Golem with: 25% ROF 3 x BCU 4 x TII Sieges with Rage 5 x Hammerhead II All skills LVL V And arround 1200 DPS without drones.. Mind post your setup? Still dont get your concern a CNR dishes out way more dmg:) Boot up eft. Fit a raven with 6 sieges and 3 BCUs(load rage), use the all lvl 5 skill character, check dps(it is 743 dps, 711 with faction). 7431.33(torp buff)1.33(-25% firing rate that people want)=1314 DPS. 5 hammerhead IIs do 158 DPS, 1314+158=1472 DPS. So I was off by 28, big deal, with faction torps you're still doing 1415 dps. hmm weired i somwhere lost 100 dps:) Anyhow CNR dishes out 1,37k dps after the torp buff with 4 x bcu/Siege II w Rage/Hammerhead II's. Imho 1,41k for the golem (full gank/also 4 x bcu) wouldn't be so over the top... 1. You're comparing rage with faction. 2. You try fitting CNR with 7 Siege launcher IIs lol, have fun with that. huh my cnr uses 7 sieges right now on tq.. and everythign fits fine inc tank without fitting mods.. anyway you came with those 1,4k dps with rage not me..
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:01:00 - [52] Originally by: d026 huh my cnr uses 7 sieges right now on tq.. and everythign fits fine inc tank without fitting mods.. anyway you came with those 1,4k dps with rage not me.. This for pvp, I pretty sure you can't have 7 siege IIs a mwd and a heavy injector on the CNR without fitting mods...
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:02:00 - [53] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 02:02:52 ok agreed with mwd is gonna be tricky.. im still on old torprange mod:)
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:08:00 - [54] but actually if you really want you can do it anyway you just need a anci router and a buffer tank..
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:11:00 - [55] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 02:08:51 but actually if you really want you can do it anyway you just need a anci router and a buffer tank.. ther problem remains tough.. if we dont give him the rof bonus the golem is just going to suck bad ass in pve.. whats your suggestion here? fly a cnr?:) Well if damage is a problem with cruise due to defender missiles then simply give the golem an hp bonus to its missiles. Like say 2x bonus so it takes twice as many defenders to shoot down cruises fired from a golem, or even 3x. No/very little missile shoot down from npcs=higher actual dps without affecting its pvp balance.
I SoStoned	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:23:00 - [56] Hardly a ship worth shelling out the ISK for, from my view. Does anyone have a clue at all why these 'advanced technology' powerhouses have 2/3 the sensor strength of their T1 counterparts? Just to forcefully keep them out of any and all PvP situations because they'd be permajammed by a single Griffin? IMO Marauders = FTL. Love those mission runners facing gurista, too... LOL
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:33:00 - [57] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 02:37:14 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 02:08:51 but actually if you really want you can do it anyway you just need a anci router and a buffer tank.. ther problem remains tough.. if we dont give him the rof bonus the golem is just going to suck bad ass in pve.. whats your suggestion here? fly a cnr?:) Well if damage is a problem with cruise due to defender missiles then simply give the golem an hp bonus to its missiles. Like say 2x bonus so it takes twice as many defenders to shoot down cruises fired from a golem, or even 3x. No/very little missile shoot down from npcs=higher actual dps without affecting its pvp balance. no deffenders are imho not really the problem. the problem is that the cnr has similar alpha but better rof thus killing faster.. the golem is obsolet in pve if there is anotehr ship (cnr) that does kill faster.. the golem only would make sense if he had either the raven rof or a higher alpha allowing him to 1 volley npcs where the cnr cant or at least do it as fast as teh cnr/raven. the only purpose i see in the golem right now is either pvp or ninjaratting in hostile teritorry (but i doubt that anybody in the right mind would do later in a 600mil-1bil ship). the most elegant solution tought would be to give him anotherrange bonus instead of the 5% rof, giving it the ability to use torps in missions. imho the bonus could be restricted to deadspace only or at leats allow mwd's in deadspace..
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:19:00 - [58] Originally by: d026 It was a raven setup not a Golem setup. Im not sure if you can fit a Golem that effectively. Gonna wait till somebody updates EFT to find that out:) That it was, my bad. Still I'm sure some viable set-ups will reveal themselves, though I like you am too darn lazy to run the math when I can wait for EFT to get updated.
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:46:00 - [59] Originally by: Gamesguy Ah I love those arguments, did you happen to include learning skills? Didnt think so. Yep. Level 4 in all Tier 1, Level 4 in all Tier 2 and Level 4 Learning. But thanks for playing. Quote: "Premium gear"? Its a standard t2 fit you muppet. Everyone I know(including myself) uses faction ammo, as they are generally far superior to the t2 short range ammo. Everyone I know runs missions to make isk, not lose it. Some people hell bent on speed fire off faction ammo under the justification they can do "more" missions. Most just use nice, cheap standard ammo. But what do you know about that? Your a 0.0 PVP'er obviously, seeing fit to come trash threads about a PVE ship. I wonder if your also one of those folks that thinks all eve should just be 0.0 and missions should just be removed.... I know a lot of you PVP'ers are lofty elitists like that. Quote: As for lvl 5 skills, I know lots of people with surgical strike 5, rapid firing 5, etc. Ok not a lot of people will have torp spec 5, so take 2% off that dps, but this can be made up with implants fairly easilly. Well thank you for at least admitting people wont have torp spec 5. Now how about Gal Drone Spec 5 and Combat Drone 5? :P Quote: In addition, all ship comparisons are made with max skills. How is it fair to use less than perfect skills for one ship and then compare to another with perfect skills? Its not. So the standard is everyone uses max skills to equalize the playing field. Fine, but no other ship was compared. When you post on a balance thread, full disclosure is the most professional thing to do. And if you recall I did say "At least you were honest". Full level 5 skills in everything takes something like 20 years and is impossible. Full Level 5 skills with just one ship is possible, but barely possible. If you maxed every single skill that helps the ship your in, you'd be training 2.5-3 years. Quote: Thats bull***. Multi-billion? The Marauders will probably end up costing around 600mil to buy. Time will tell. Why do I have a feeling they are going to be 2 billion to start, 1 billion 6 months from now and maybe* 800m a year from now? Most of you pvp'ers seem to think we mission runners are Billionaries. Perhaps Curzon Dax is to blame? Quote: It takes MUCH less time to get into a marauder compared to a carrier. Depends on the carrier. It isnt much less, but it is less. If isk isnt an issue (which it isnt to you in every single argument you have ever made) and you custom created a new character for this role, at 10m skillpoints, who'd be more powerful? The guy who was born to fly a Carrier or the guy born to fly a Battleship? Its pretty damn obvious. I am not really on either side of the Carrier issue, so you cant place me in that category. But when your advocating not fixing the mission running Golem on one side of your mouth while joining the "its not fair!" club on the Carrier issue thats hypocritical. Quote: And a 1400-1500 golem that can fire out to 30km and use capless weapons is ******ly unbalanced in pvp. Show me a mission runner that asked for that stupid torpedo change! It was people on your side of the universe that made that happen, not us! I dont want the torpedo change, CCP can keep it. Its utterly broken in missions now, even Javelins are utterly broken. They CANT be used regardless of how you fit since NPCs will fight outside of range and MWDs can not be used in a mission area. Just like you could give a rats-ass about what hurts mission runners, I feel the same way about what offends you 0.0 people. Right now there are 170 different non-faction ships in EVE (rev2). 3 of them are for us Mission runners, the other 167 are for you**. Let us have our Marauders working perfectly for missions, and figure out a way to stop pvp'ers from exploiting it without harming us. State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007
Alyxa Mahan	Posted - 2007.10.27 07:08:00 - [60] Edited by: Alyxa Mahan on 27/10/2007 07:14:27 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne the ship does not need a 10% capuse reduction bonus...half the turrets already does this pretty well. most people have figured it out by now: 4 turrets with 100% capuse = 8 turrets with 50%. Yes, we've figured that out, and its part of the problem! I mean, you think its ok that for the Amarr ship only, the role bonus effectively doesn't exist? It simply replaces the standard T1 race bonus on the Paladin? For those who like statistics, lets compare the Marauders to their base hulls, shall we? The only thing thats stupid is leaving them as they were for such a long time. Paladin: same damage for the same cap Golem: same damage for the same cap (ok, its zero) Vargur: more damage for the same cap (zero too) Kronos: more damage for nearly half the cap You see the problem now? The dev blog states the effective turret reduction means "weapon capacitor need and munitions consumption rates are reduced", and thats simply not the case for the Paladin! Its guns use exactly the same amount of energy as every other Amarr laserboat (with the notable exception of the oddball Abbadon)! Effectively, the Paladin would need a fifth bonus, to make up for the role bonus being nothing more than the glorified race bonus! Originally by: Futureface01 Show me a mission runner that asked for that stupid torpedo change! It was people on your side of the universe that made that happen, not us! I dont want the torpedo change, CCP can keep it. Its utterly broken in missions now, even Javelins are utterly broken. They CANT be used regardless of how you fit since NPCs will fight outside of range and MWDs can not be used in a mission area. Try to do missions with ACs, blasters or pulses. Face it, torpedos were broken. They are BS sized shortrange weapons, big brother of rockets and HAMs.

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