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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.10.27 15:55:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan Effectively, the Paladin would need a fifth bonus, to make up for the role bonus being nothing more than the glorified race bonus!
While I agree the Paladin needs some love (as do all Marauders if they're going to fulfill their intended roles) this is like saying all t1 Amarr ships need a third bonus to make up for the -10% cap use being a "race bonus".
The bonuses balance out nicely, it simply doesn't have any real advantage over it's t1 counterparts since a web bonus really isn't going to help it in the same way as it will the Kronos or the way that the TP/Falloff bonuses benefit the other Marauders.
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Darko1107
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.27 16:12:00 -
[62]
Marauders just seem like overly expensive BS tbh. Why have a fleet of overly expensive maurauders to use when you can just have normal bs that do pretty much the same thing.
Or if your a mission runner, why get a cheaper maurader when you love shiney toys and have the isk to buy a cnr.
However a gank squad of marauders could be very nice as thier tanking capability would be immense, running cap transfers and remote reps in thier highs. ------------------
Sig removed, please keep it under the 24,000 byte limit, if you have any questions please email [email protected] - Xorus |
OlCo
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Posted - 2007.10.27 16:42:00 -
[63]
Edited by: OlCo on 27/10/2007 16:46:43 i like Golem like it is
for those who complanes, take youre time... you guys did not had time enough yet to realise what a sirious ship it is, with a right setup it can beat any BS in its way, simple a monster
and i don't see a problem to use it like a mission boat either, just what you need , is a RIGHT fitt, and you ready to ROCK baby
awesom ship.... nice work CCP
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.27 18:37:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
Yes, we've figured that out, and its part of the problem! I mean, you think its ok that for the Amarr ship only, the role bonus effectively doesn't exist? It simply replaces the standard T1 race bonus on the Paladin?
hu? apoc: 8 turrets worth of damage, 4 turrets worth of capuse, 0 utility slots paladin: 8 turrets worth of damage, 4 turrets worth of capuse, 3 utility slots, 1 extra bonus slot to be filled with something usefull instead of the capuse reduction wich is no longer needed
you dont need an additional capuse bonus on the apoc do you? why would you need one the paladin?
personally i would rather have a bonus that actually improves the ship over one thats not really needed anymore due to having half the number of turrets.
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Mush Morton
Caldari Wolf Echelon Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.10.28 02:10:00 -
[65]
I'm going to have to cast a reserved vote of agreement with the OP. In general I'm slow to complain about balancing/design issues from CCP, as they are typically in the best position to make those kinds of decisions. Having said that, I really can't comprehend how the Golem that we now see on Sisi is going to live up to its advertised role as a massive damage dealer. The Marauders were billed as a chassis capable of spearheading assaults deep within enemy territory. As it stands now, it's barely beating out the vanilla Raven for raw damage potential.
I'm desperately holding out hope that there is a siege module of some sort that these ships are designed to use. If not, the Golem may just be the latest in a disappointing series of ship iterations for the Caldari, and indeed T2 ships in general. ----------------- Molon Labe! |
Calimor
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.28 07:00:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Calimor on 28/10/2007 07:00:28
Originally by: OlCo Edited by: OlCo on 27/10/2007 16:46:43 i like Golem like it is
for those who complanes, take youre time... you guys did not had time enough yet to realise what a sirious ship it is, with a right setup it can beat any BS in its way, simple a monster
and i don't see a problem to use it like a mission boat either, just what you need , is a RIGHT fitt, and you ready to ROCK baby
awesom ship.... nice work CCP
CCP, this is the kind of player that enjoyed the Marauders.
Please, review the ships.
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Alyxa Mahan
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Posted - 2007.10.28 10:39:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne you dont need an additional capuse bonus on the apoc do you? why would you need one the paladin?
personally i would rather have a bonus that actually improves the ship over one thats not really needed anymore due to having half the number of turrets.
/sigh And again. Halving the turrets on the Megathron/Kronos = weapon cap use is halved. Halving the turrets on the Apocalypse/Paladin while dropping the laser cap use bonus = weapon cap use stays the same. Result: Imbalance. Got it now?
And regarding those oh so awesome utility slots, the bloody thing hasn't even the grid to fit a T2 repper in addition to four tachyons, what do you want to put in those slots, three micro smarties?
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.29 00:02:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
Halving the turrets on the Megathron/Kronos = weapon cap use is halved. Halving the turrets on the Apocalypse/Paladin while dropping the laser cap use bonus = weapon cap use stays the same.
the paladin can get 1 more bonus because it DOES NOT NEED the capuse bonus anymore. that is ONE BONUS the kronos does not get. you lose a bonus you no longer need + you get a bonus that could be really helpful if someone at ccp actually knew how the apoc works. its an advantage...dont be afraid of the bonus.
the paladin on test (afaik) has a slightly better cap recharge rate and the same capuse than the apoc...plus one free bonus. anyone who was able to work with the cap on the apoc will be happy with what the paladin has to offer with regards to cap. anyone who had issues with the cap on an apoc should start training for another race.
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
And regarding those oh so awesome utility slots, the bloody thing hasn't even the grid to fit a T2 repper in addition to four tachyons, what do you want to put in those slots, three micro smarties?
eh? its a "missionship" as in made for "missions"...like in "pve". and it gets a bonus to tractor beam range. what could possibly fit in there? surely not a tractor beam and 2 salvagers? the whole point in cutting the number of weapons in half is to make room for utility modules for missionrunners.
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Alyxa Mahan
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Posted - 2007.10.29 00:54:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne the paladin can get 1 more bonus because it DOES NOT NEED the capuse bonus anymore. that is ONE BONUS the kronos does not get.
Huh? The Kronos gets every single bonus the Paladin gets. And halved cap use on top of that.
Or how about this, as some people like numbers: 4x425mmII cap/sec (according to EFT with max skills): 13,8 4xTachyonII cap/sec: 33,3 This means nothing more than that the Paladins guns eat his complete recharge, while the Kronos still has more than half left for his tank. Or in other words, the Kronos has an advantage of one integral cap recharger over the Paladin, even with its cap size bonus. And that with the same slots, better damage, easier fittings, higher speed/less weight... The imbalance between those two ships is just gross.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne the paladin on test (afaik) has a slightly better cap recharge rate and the same capuse than the apoc...
Unfortunately also a smaller base cap, next try...
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne eh? its a "missionship" as in made for "missions"...like in "pve". and it gets a bonus to tractor beam range. what could possibly fit in there? surely not a tractor beam and 2 salvagers? the whole point in cutting the number of weapons in half is to make room for utility modules for missionrunners.
Oh yeah, i've heard that theory before. Seriously, do you fly missions? And if you do, do you really want to clear up a room with a single tractor and two salvagers? Maybe even during the mission, draining more of your precious cap? I think i'll keep my trusty destroyer for that job...
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.29 07:31:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
Huh? The Kronos gets every single bonus the Paladin gets.
i'll try and make it simple:
mega has: 5% damage, 7.5% tracking kronos has: 5% damage, 7.5% tracking, 2% web effect, 7.5% repair amount = 2 new bonuses over the mega
apoc: -10% laser capuse, 5% cap capacity paladin: - , 5% cap capcity, 7.5% tracking, 2% web effect, 7.5% repair amount = 3 new bonuses
3 > 2
kronos gets halfed capuse for its guns and the paladin gets an additional bonus. seems pretty good until you see that whoever came up with the idea of using the web bonus on a laserboat has no clue as to how lasers work and are used in missions.
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
4x425mmII cap/sec (according to EFT with max skills): 13,8 4xTachyonII cap/sec: 33,3
if you want to complain about tachyons do so but dont blame their shortcomings on the paladin. this new ship doesnt need to start out gimped because people cant manage their cap properly. hint: you dont have to use tachyons for everything (and please accept their drawbacks if you insist on them).
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
Or in other words, the Kronos has an advantage of one integral cap recharger over the Paladin, even with its cap size bonus. And that with the same slots, better damage, easier fittings, higher speed/less weight... The imbalance between those two ships is just gross.
so because the kronos is a lot better than the paladin you want to gimp the paladin with that crappy bonus which is already used to gimp a lot of other amarr ships?
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne the paladin on test (afaik) has a slightly better cap recharge rate and the same capuse than the apoc...
Unfortunately also a smaller base cap, next try...
still better peak recharge
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
And if you do, do you really want to clear up a room with a single tractor and two salvagers?
actually no... i usually cant be bothered to salvageat all but i could use this to loot and salvage a few of the wrecks while doing the missions.
a few > none at all.
and you can still use the slots for other utility items. smartbombs come to mind if you dont like using frigs on those close tacklers. hint: you dont have to use tachyons.
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Alyxa Mahan
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Posted - 2007.10.29 09:01:00 -
[71]
If you don't use tachyons, you accept right from the start that the Paladin will not just do less damage than the Kronos, but a lot less damage. Unacceptable.
And seriously, this is getting ridiculous. shinsushi has been trying for quite some time to get it into your guys heads that all weapons are balanced with their racial boni in mind. ALL Gallente gunboats get +5% damage, ALL Minmatar gunboats get +5% ROF, and ALL Amarr gunboats get -10% cap use, if a ship lacks that bonus, it suffers for it. For the sake of understanding, don't think of these as a bonus, but as a penalty to everyone else who wants to use the weapon. And by halving the weapons on all four Marauders, the Amarr ship is left again in the dust. If only the Paladin would get half the guns with the 100% bonus, and the other Marauders stay at 8 guns, then the removal of the cap use bonus would be warranted and balanced.
Its just, if you cross compare the Paladin and Kronos to their T1 hulls and to each other, there's simply a massive imbalance here, and the removal of the cap use bonus is one of the reasons. Others are that the Kronos already starts with a much better base, and gains more on top of that, while the Paladin only gets weird, non-Amarr or outright useless boni.
Oh and yeah, the Paladin get a better recharge, but only thanks to it cap bonus. Last time i checked, the two ships have equal base cap and recharge, with the Paladin effectively getting one inbuilt cap recharger with its cap bonus. Unfortunately, after you factor in weapons drain, its the Kronos that has an effective cap advantage of one inbuilt cap recharger. Surprise.
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Fuazzole
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Posted - 2007.10.29 11:22:00 -
[72]
Originally by: StonerReakingHavok
...... How many T1 BS's out-dps their T2 Marauder Counterpart for their primary role?
The Megatron is close, Kronos is a joke with neut's..but should still do about 7%more dps
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:56:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
If you don't use tachyons, you accept right from the start that the Paladin will not just do less damage than the Kronos, but a lot less damage.
you mean like it has been for ages with the apoc and the megathron? surely your are not trying to say that the apoc (famous for its big cap and lack of damage dealing capability) isnt among the best when it comes to dealing damage? you mean to tell me that it cant compete with the megathron (famous for breaking stuff apart) in terms of damage unless it fits its supposed superweapon with the tachyon beam (where you only need about 2 slots for fitting mods just to get the guns in)?
only thing i'm wondering then is why you dont want a damage bonus on the paladin but instead insist on a capuse reduction bonus thats not really needed on the ship.
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan shinsushi has been trying for quite some time
are you trying to bring him up as a reference for spamming the forums with useless drivel or as an excuse for failing to understand the problems that -10% capuse bonus has brought?
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
and ALL Amarr gunboats get -10% cap use, if a ship lacks that bonus, it suffers for it.
- like the abaddon suffers because it has a laser damage bonus instead of that capuse reduction one? - and i guess the punisher, maller and prophecy actually benefit from the -10% capuse bonus? cleary all of these ships would be horrible failures with a damage or range bonus instead? the people fitting autocannons or blasters to them must feel pretty stupid now.
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
For the sake of understanding, don't think of these as a bonus, but as a penalty...
this (without the rest you added there by mistake) is exactly how i think about the bonus. its a penalty making sure our tankers are gimped by their very design.
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Ynos Fukse
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Posted - 2007.10.29 16:08:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Ynos Fukse on 29/10/2007 16:10:18 GOLEM SUCK BIGTIME (for missions).
I dont need tractor beam bonus.
I dont need 3 emty high slots.
I dont need explosion velocity crap bonus.
I dont need to "stay longer"
I dont need 1275m3 cargo lol.
...so CNR i will use becose give me much isk dealing faster with missions.
.
another thing is.. i dont understand why t2 BSs are so crapy besides faction BS's When I'm looking at t2 cruisers... are far more powerfull then faction cruisers.
Maybe they are afraid to make them too powerfull... well ppl if I pay so much isk and train so much time for them.. i want more.. If not i play with a better ship.. CNR or WHY NOT RATTLESNAKE??? haha.
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Ynos Fukse
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Posted - 2007.10.29 16:09:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Ynos Fukse on 29/10/2007 16:09:46 .
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Malachi Nefzen
Caldari Insane Decision
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Posted - 2007.10.29 16:25:00 -
[76]
At least drop that lame target painter bonus ont he golem, and make it explosion radius
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Ynos Fukse
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Posted - 2007.10.29 16:38:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Malachi Nefzen At least drop that lame target painter bonus ont he golem, and make it explosion radius
lol i forgot about that.. Well that bonus is crap.. target painter + cruise? no worth to loose a med slot for that.
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Doomed Predator
Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.10.29 17:25:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Doomed Predator on 29/10/2007 17:26:26 I just wish the golem would get the crappy bs bonus of 10% increase to exp velocity changed to 5% rof. The same thing happened with the Nighthawk. But this could just be a pre-nerf so it wount cost 3 bill as it probably will when they give it the 5% rof bonus.
Or change that to 10% bonus to 200% bonus. Now that could be interesting
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Ynos Fukse
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Posted - 2007.10.30 08:52:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Ynos Fukse on 30/10/2007 08:52:10
Originally by: Doomed Predator Edited by: Doomed Predator on 29/10/2007 17:26:26 I just wish the golem would get the crappy bs bonus of 10% increase to exp velocity changed to 5% rof. The same thing happened with the Nighthawk. But this could just be a pre-nerf so it wount cost 3 bill as it probably will when they give it the 5% rof bonus.
Or change that to 10% bonus to 200% bonus. Now that could be interesting
It should have bonus for torpedos range... In this way torpedos will be usefull in missions.. and that bonus fot target painters.
If not, players will use just cruise missiles in missions.. and u dont need target painter for those.... so target painter bonus in this case is usless.
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