Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:08:00 -
[61]
There has to be a better solution to the excessive speed tank problem than nerfing every MWD using ship in the game.
The MWD has been hit with a great many nerfs over the course of EVE and before speed became the problem it is today a lot of us were complaining that it had been over nerfed since the original corrections were made back in the days when one could fit multiple MWD's.
Look to another factor of the speed tank, we don't need to kill it either, just bring it more in line with standard tanking.
|
Vanessa Vale
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:09:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Kolwrath
To all the trolls in this thread, please go back under your bridge. I have seen a nano vexor go 5-8km a second. That isent right. The guy essentially was invincible and could leave the fight at will. And to all those who say "use ship x, y, or z, well quite frankly its a very stupid argument because essentailly you are saying that to counter a nano ship you have to use one of only three ships in the game, in a very specific setup, and bring along friends, just to kill one ship. That is not what I would call balanced.
Like its not balanced when you fight a ship of your own class but it is fully faction fit and need friends? Or not balanced when you get rendered useless by a single damp? Or not balanced when you get jammed and can't do crap?
However I'm not interested in slugfests most of the time. Did you realize you could probably leave the fight at will too? I will agree that nanoships that don't use turrets to attack need some tweaking, tho. Or buff to the ones that do. But that's not going to happen.
|
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:11:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild When almost any concievable setup out there where you might consider using an afterburner works a hell of a lot better with an mwd instead...
...then clearly MWD's are overpowered.
Actually - my theory is that ABs would see far more use if a smaller ship class with an AB could match speed with a larger ship class with a MWD.
ABs are actually useful for smaller ships once within web range, but getting there preety much does require a MWD, and the MWD-fitted ship can quite easily mess up your attempts to speedtank, because ultimately, he's faster then you with the speed boost on.
I use a AB Rifter 90% of my time, and it can do certain things a MWD Rifter just can't. Reaching 1km/s with an AB *almost* enables me to speed-tank someone who's cheap enough to use a T1/langour web and doesn't know how to fly away while MWD-ing to kill transversal. T2/fleeting and even X5 webs kill all hope of speedtanking, even if I used an interceptor for the same role. The speed decrease is just too high.
A 25% boost to ABs across the board (or a nerf to webs, or preferably both) would make 'ABs are for speedtanking' CCP comment valid.
Currently, there is no real speed-tanking in EvE, there's only *kiting* your opponent with a nano-ship, which is different - you rely on keeping out of webrange, because web==death.
In the end, if you want to mess up the MWD, then mess up the web together with it.
|
DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:29:00 -
[64]
Really when I think about nano gangs and stuff like that I always remember a alliance m8 comment when we just splatted a nano gang...
"If people actually fit their ships to fight instead to run faster they could actually win more fights..."
Nano gangs are good to hit and run, gank, and extremelly good to run away, but in the midle of a big fight the nano ships will be victims of their own fit... fragile, extremelly fragille, good to run away from missiles and drones but obvious victims of insta damage. They will survive with a bit of luck, cause they run away, to only see their gang mates using heavier ships being slaughtered victims of lack of support.
|
Aki Yamato
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:50:00 -
[65]
Boost AB !
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
MaDeX
MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 15:21:00 -
[66]
You stupid people, you doing my FU****** head in. STOP SAYING NERF.
THE GAMES NOT BROKEN YOU ARE.
NOW FO.
ARRGHH seriously was you bullied at school or something?
|
Tadehiro
Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 15:40:00 -
[67]
Nooooo!! Don't nerf the MWD!
Seriously. ALL my ships are nano fitted (right up to my Myrmidons, somehow they're still reasonably effective nanoed and infinitely more surviveable).
|
Haradgrim
Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:05:00 -
[68]
A brief history of the OP:
Within the last couple of days they lost a very expensive ship / very expensive fitted ship to a Vaga, inty, or some nano'd boat moving 5+km p/s. In his frustration he came to the board to let out some steam and post whining against a tactic he/she doesn't like to use and hates when used against them.
As with all posts of this type they have now been shut up and are likely skilling up for a nano ship as we speak. We can only hope that they have enough time to skill up before CCP nerfs speed due to ongoing whines of the same variety.
That aside; Speed is one of the best parts of the game currently, it makes gate camps less effective (always a plus), it makes directly tanking a stupid amount of damage less important (also a good thing), and requires knowledge of effective/optimal ranges of both weapons and neut/nos, not to mention requires actual micro-mangement which is far better than >click orbith>scram>f1-f6>afk.
Now tell me again why speed is a bad thing? And also how are there no counters? Ever been hit with a heavy Neut while flying an inty? no, well thats why you think there's no counters. Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
|
Mattikus
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:11:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Darkstar Deceiver people like you ruin eve. go away.
i hate you seriously
People like you ruin my morning. Thats gotta be the most stupidest, lamest, immature reply I've ever seen in my life. Push your glasses back on your nose poindexter and get your head outta your ass.
|
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:31:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Haradgrim A brief history of the OP:
Is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Originally by: DeadDuck "If people actually fit their ships to fight instead to run faster they could actually win more fights..."
They said the same thing about WCS.
|
|
14882
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:35:00 -
[71]
Don't you people know that counterstrike is supposed to be a FPS game????!!! Why are you complaining?
O wait...uh...nevermind.
|
Valharu
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:35:00 -
[72]
I think the issue is, that its hard to bring the speed of larger ships back in line of what it should be without crippling Interceptors and possibly frigs.
The idea that a Cruiser is going over 2k for the most part, is pretty much absurd and Illogical based on how our present weapons systems range, trackiing and explosion volocity.
I think it might be better to put a Cap on speed based on each ship. That way ships like the Vega and Demios will always remain faster as a Cruiser vs any other Cruiser but none of the ships would be so fast as to make weapons obsolete and blobbing mandatory to counter them.
If each ship had a speed cap, and just like heat, if you go over it, your hull, armor and shields take damage. It would be a logical counter as a ship is stressed beyond its normal limits.
There is a major difference between speed tanking and speed avoidance. Realisticly, exstream speed has Nerfed weapon system which alot of ****le don't mind cause it works in their favor. They are not really using a great tactic but a game mechanic flaw to get their kills.
The best battles I have been in are the slug fests with multi types of ships in use.
Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships slugging it out. EW Ships cutting other ships off. Fast Interceptors, Frigs and some Cruisers darting in and out doing hit and runs and dying here and there if they were unlucky enough to get locked and webbed. Everything was in play from Speed, to Tanking, To EW.
Tacticaly there is a major difference between a Cruiser being fast and uncatchable by a Battlecruiser, and a Cruiser being so fast a Battlecruser can't hit it and is at its mercy.
Speed in its present form NERFS most other ships in effect, it has taken the combat out of combat and replaced it with unmitigated gank.
I don't know if a speed cap is the Best solution, but it may be a good part of a few solutions that could/should work together.
I think Warp Scrams working on MWDs is also a nice additive, it would add the Arazu/Lach as another race that has a different way of effecting certain aspects of speed. And all races with the new T2 Frigs would now have ways to counter certain aspects of speed.
This would make ABs more viable again. I just think there is a difference between ships made to move fast through systems for quick strikes of in and out and ships who can stay in a combat and remain untouched do to exstream speed.
If the above was to work, it might not be a bad idea to up the in Warp Speed of some T2 Ships. Make Hacs warp at 4.5 AU, Command Ships warp at 4 AU, Assualt Frigs at 6 AU. That repersents their higher tech and ability to move around faster as a skirmish group but does not break the game mechanics in the sublight combat.
Now this could be a whine or this could be a discussion. I have seen both on this board from both sides. I prefer the later but these are my thoughts on this.
|
Akusa Nihil
Aulari Defense Systems
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:40:00 -
[73]
Its called a Huginn.
|
Arnold Duncan
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A Cult of War
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:47:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Eikl There are already too many posts on nano gangs, counters, how the counters don't work, how nanos are the new warp stabs, blah blah blah. Since it's the internet, I'll start another one anyway.
Put the 'W' back in MWD. Treat them like normal warp drives. When it's on, you can't target anything and you lose drone control. They're for closing or fleeing only. Wanna go faster in combat? Buy an afterburner.
Short and simple. Discuss!
Totally and heartily supported!!
MWD is the new WCS after the wcs nerf. ------------------------------
Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Playing amarr is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair". |
Valharu
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 18:28:00 -
[75]
ROFL! I fly a Huggin/Rapier
It is not the answer and any wargamer should know they should not BE the answer. Its a racial ship. That idea would totally leave the Amarr, Caldari and Gallente out in the dark.
There is nothing wrong with races being stronger or weaker in areas vs other races. But to be cut out of the loop compleatly is just absurd.
Simple stuff like this should not have to be explained.
|
Vitrael
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 18:35:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Eikl Put the 'W' back in MWD. Treat them like normal warp drives. When it's on, you can't target anything and you lose drone control. They're for closing or fleeing only. Wanna go faster in combat? Buy an afterburner.
Let me preface this by saying "what a horrible idea."
The whole point of the microwarpdrive is to go fast while still fighting. It was quickly discovered to be too powerful, so it got nerfed. In fact, it got nerfed worse than any other module in the game. It cuts your cap by 25%, gives you a 500% sig radius increase, gives you a chunky mass increase, and gobbles your capacitor. Guess what? We all still use one because speed is great.
If you have a problem with ships zooming around at 10km/s+ you do not have microwarpdrives to blame. Perhaps you have nothing to blame at all. Let's get something straight:
-No ship with a MWD on in orbit of you can possibly hit you with any turret weapon except in the case of being well under top speed/transversal. If that is the case they too are vulnerable and your argument is void. -No missile ships have been known to effectively use MWD invulnerability tactics with the possible exception of the Crow. Nobody whines about crows because they are easily countered. -Possibly the only ships that maintain their punch while running full speed are the Ishtar and Ishkur. Guess what? They're nerfing scoop to make these tactics less viable. Additionally, they can still be easily countered with a web, particularly webbing interceptors or minnie recons.
Still have a problem with speedy ships? Does it have something to do with not being able to kill them?
Fine. If a ship sacrifices its damage dealing potential and tank to be able to haul ass out of a sticky situation, it earned it.
___________ I learned to accept ship changes months ago. Suddenly I enjoy Eve. You should try it some time. |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 19:20:00 -
[77]
I don't think there is a problem with speed in of itself. Speed and cloaking enables guerilla and skirmish warfare. This means you can go and harass, bleed and terrorize an enemy that has you outnumbered and outgunned. I don't think there is nothing wrong with that.
Why?
Because there is one all-important thing you can not do with guerilla warfare and skirmishing. You can't take or hold space with those tactics. You can only raid people's space. In the end, if you're really going to attack someone or claim and defend space, you need heavy ships and lots of them, and you need to get into big slug fests. Speed and cloaking won't do.
However, I really think there is a problem in the balance between afterburner and microwarpdrive. There is only really one situation where an afterburner is better than an mwd. That is, when you're speed tanking against larger turrets at 10-20 km distance, but as soon as they put missiles or drones on you, you're dead. MWD's give a huge speed boost, and the cap and sig radius penalties and cap usage are just not bad enough in comparison to how much speed you get to discourage people from using them on the vast majority of pvp setups.
Maybe cutting the speed boost by half is too drastic. Maybe something like this would work instead:
Cut the speed boost on MWDs by around 10% (for example, from 500% to 450% on tech 1 MWDs), increase the sig radius penalty and cap usage on them by around 20%, and increase the speed boost on afterburners by maybe 30-40%.
You could also then tweak the speed boost values a little more so that 1mn modules (both afterburners and microwarpdrives) give a slightly higher boost than 10mn, and 10mn modules give a slightly higher speed boost than 100mn modules. It wouldn't be a big difference, but just a few percentages. The Stabber and Vagabond could get a slight boost to their base speed to compensate.
|
Fenderson
Finite Horizon Synchr0nicity
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 19:53:00 -
[78]
the devs are already doing exactly what they should be doing to counter nano gangs. rather than nerfing speed, they are providing good counters to speed.
the upcoming interceptor boost, for example, will finally allow interceptors to be used as a counter to nano ships, as they should have been all along.
also the new ewar frigs, especially the minmatar one will be great tools against speed fits.
the main reason nano gangs are so effective now is simply that they are usually met with half-assed and poorly planned/organized/led resistance. the devs are now giving you even more tools at your disposal to organize and effectively counter nano-gangs, and everyone can afford a few tech 2 frigates.
|
Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 20:44:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Fenderson the devs are already doing exactly what they should be doing to counter nano gangs. rather than nerfing speed, they are providing good counters to speed.
the upcoming interceptor boost, for example, will finally allow interceptors to be used as a counter to nano ships, as they should have been all along.
also the new ewar frigs, especially the minmatar one will be great tools against speed fits.
the main reason nano gangs are so effective now is simply that they are usually met with half-assed and poorly planned/organized/led resistance. the devs are now giving you even more tools at your disposal to organize and effectively counter nano-gangs, and everyone can afford a few tech 2 frigates.
Interceptors and frigates die so fast to a vegabond its not even funney. . .infact, the strength of the nano setup is that you are in a relativly large ship (cruiser) going as fast as an inti, and killing it before it can say Kizer Soze.
MWD/Nano setups are a little imba, I feel dirty flying them, but to say that one Huggin is going to stop a nano-gang is pure idiocy. The Huggin will die first, then we party. -----------
|
Eikl
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 21:18:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Haradgrim A brief history of the OP:
Within the last couple of days they lost a very expensive ship / very expensive fitted ship to a Vaga, inty, or some nano'd boat moving 5+km p/s. In his frustration he came to the board to let out some steam and post whining against a tactic he/she doesn't like to use and hates when used against them.
Beep, sorry, you've utterly failed at amateur psychoanalysis. I've never lost a ship to a nano gang (that I remember), I've flown in them sometimes, and I've been reasonably effective at chasing them away. I just enjoy seeing how rabidly people react to a suggested change to FotM. I actually think speed gangs are kind of fun, and I don't want to see them vanish entirely, but their growing popularity and the eternal buff/nerf cycle of online games dictates that either game mechanics or game play will change to make them less prevalent.
|
|
Solant
Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 21:23:00 -
[81]
This is absolute rubbish. Heres why:
MWD is activated instantly. You want anyone to be able to run from a fight at will by hitting alt f2? Its already hard enough to lock people down and kill them in this game, and WCS was nerfed FOR A REASON. If you cant take the heat, dont fly there.
Additionally, the game has been altered by mwds for several years now. They are an intrinsic piece to the puzzle that is balancing in EVE. You cant just remove them from the game in their current role and expect the game to work. Ever tried flying an interceptor with an afterburner?
|
Cailais
Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 21:38:00 -
[82]
Ok I think thats enough now. The next patch will issue in a whole bunch of changes, and once theyve gone live for a while perhaps then the Nerfit Community can start rabbling.
We really could just do with some stability for a bit modules wise. Sure change is good, but reaching for the 'nerf' button at every ship death is a touch to far.
C.
- sig designer - eve mail
Low Sec Idea |
Grim Vandal
Caldari Burn Proof
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 22:18:00 -
[83]
current combat is pretty lame ...
nice game ccp but it fails at some points sadly ...
one of them is combat speed ...
out of web range nano ships own, within webrange you cant move 1 even 1 km anymore... who thought it would be a good idea to have it that way eh???
in my opinion:
change webifiers:
-90% speed if mwd is activated -60% speed if AB is activated -30% speed on normal drives only one web at any give time can affect one ship
maybe after that some things like jump in range should be changed to: between 30km and 15km ... that is still highly debatable tho ...
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
Caldari Burn Proof
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 22:19:00 -
[84]
Originally by: MaDeX You stupid people, you doing my FU****** head in. STOP SAYING NERF.
THE GAMES NOT BROKEN YOU ARE.
NOW FO.
ARRGHH seriously was you bullied at school or something?
you have no clue at all do you ...
Greetings Grim |
Fenderson
Finite Horizon Synchr0nicity
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 22:53:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Atius Tirawa
Originally by: Fenderson the devs are already doing exactly what they should be doing to counter nano gangs. rather than nerfing speed, they are providing good counters to speed.
the upcoming interceptor boost, for example, will finally allow interceptors to be used as a counter to nano ships, as they should have been all along.
also the new ewar frigs, especially the minmatar one will be great tools against speed fits.
the main reason nano gangs are so effective now is simply that they are usually met with half-assed and poorly planned/organized/led resistance. the devs are now giving you even more tools at your disposal to organize and effectively counter nano-gangs, and everyone can afford a few tech 2 frigates.
Interceptors and frigates die so fast to a vegabond its not even funney. . .infact, the strength of the nano setup is that you are in a relativly large ship (cruiser) going as fast as an inti, and killing it before it can say Kizer Soze.
MWD/Nano setups are a little imba, I feel dirty flying them, but to say that one Huggin is going to stop a nano-gang is pure idiocy. The Huggin will die first, then we party.
CURRENTLY inties die way too easy to vagabonds. but when inties can start tacking at 30km with standard t2 fit, that situation changes drastically. Inties will now be able to approach and tackle a vagabond without ever getting into a range where the vaga can hurt it.
|
Tiny Carlos
Destructive Influence
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 23:03:00 -
[86]
I'm sure I'm not the only PvPer that's a bit tired of putting an MWD on every single ship I fit (gotta be able to burn out of the bubble even if you ain't nanoing up).
A bit of a nerf to MWD would create a lot of moaning, but not as much as some people would expect.
"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx |
Allestin Villimar
|
Posted - 2007.10.27 00:04:00 -
[87]
Nano ships will die once heavy interdictors come out, seeing as they'll be pretty much the ultimate scrambler. Massive tank, low sig radius, and high scram/web all in one mod? Yes please.
|
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Hooligans Of War Insurgency
|
Posted - 2007.10.27 00:58:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Nano ships will die once heavy interdictors come out, seeing as they'll be pretty much the ultimate scrambler. Massive tank, low sig radius, and high scram/web all in one mod? Yes please.
Lol, read the description again for the new bubble module.
Jita fix: The distributed market hub
|
Stuart Price
Caldari Havoc Inc
|
Posted - 2007.10.27 02:23:00 -
[89]
This discussion is going the same way as all the posts about nos before they changed that.
I for one am hoping for a similar outcome: MWD being rebalanced/redesigned. Along with webbers to take that into account.
Many of the ideas presented here look pretty good so let's hope the devs are feeling open minded and are happy to ignore the whining of those who fly vaga's, nanatars et al pretty much exclusively whilst kidding themselves they have mad skillz.
Currently there are VERY few times where it's viable to fit an afterburner over a MWD, if indeed any. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
Steel Tigeress
Gallente Ravenous Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.10.27 03:25:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Vitrael
Let me preface this by saying "what a horrible idea."
The whole point of the microwarpdrive is to go fast while still fighting. It was quickly discovered to be too powerful, so it got nerfed. In fact, it got nerfed worse than any other module in the game. It cuts your cap by 25%, gives you a 500% sig radius increase, gives you a chunky mass increase, and gobbles your capacitor. Guess what? We all still use one because speed is great.
Actually you couldnt be more wrong, back when MWD's were implemented the idea was pitched as a way for attackers to close the distance befor battle, or to be used to escape... they were never intended to be used While fighting. So in effect what the OP is proposing is that MWD's be changed to the way they were intended all allong.
The fact that people still use them during combat only shows that the penalties were not big enough, or the devs nerfed it in the wrong way.
If MWD's were changed to be non-combat, they could then have their penalties un-nerfed.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |