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Chief Judge
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Posted - 2007.10.27 13:13:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Chief Judge on 27/10/2007 13:14:09 Edited by: Chief Judge on 27/10/2007 13:13:18 Balanced Amarr Paladin fix? (i dont know if this has already been discussed but anyways ill give it a try..)
Looking forward to your comments.. if u ok this sign it 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level
5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level
that would be a fixed non-overpowered usefull paladin.. why?..
'cause: 1st -i cannot see the reason why is the rep amount bonus on amarr ships?!! (not native bonus for it) Kronos and Paladin they both have same slot layout ATM and 3 of the same bonuses.. THIS DOES NOT SHOW VERSATILITY.. or race originality..
2nd - web bonus and tracking bonus both on the one laser ship? lasers are kings of med range combat.. why use multifreq when u can sit comfortably 40clicks away and rain almost the same dmg.. (yes u deal mostly EM/and omni tanks are tough for amarr but all that is discussion for another thread/fix) (even if u use multifreq u hit from 13 to 20km.. (well outside the web range) stasis web bonus is really not needed here.. instead i would introduce dmg bonus,all of the other races have it.. amarr need it.. (ROF bonus would be too much)
3rd - i am also seeing the new paladin with a bigger base cap amount..
There really must be a reason to fly a paladin.. CCP please give these ideas a thought.. i really feel that amarr have not been given much thought with these new ships..
(i would also like to see 5 or 10% bonus on optimal range instead of 5% more cap but that maybe would be overpowered )
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.27 13:32:00 -
[2]
Allow them to use this device. Then introduce a t2 version which last 12 seconds and allow them to fit both at the same time. And lastely introduce a module which allows them to jump back to their cloning station which needs 10 seconds to activate.
E vola, fixed paladin!
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Chief Judge
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Posted - 2007.10.27 13:39:00 -
[3]
Heh nice module..
But seriously what do you think.. i did some number crunching and i think it is not overpowered.. what do you all think?
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.27 13:50:00 -
[4]
Sounds nice actually. The Web bonus is high stupidity for an amarr ship, replacing it with a damage bonus would at least bring it on equal dps terms as the abaddon.
The resistance amount is far more amarr-typical than the rep amount (although the rep amount is actually better for missions).
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Ilarion Fortunatus
Ebon Seraph
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Posted - 2007.10.27 14:03:00 -
[5]
I find this mix of bonuses to be the best suited, borrowing 2 bonuses from the Abaddon, one from the Apoc and one "Out of nowhere" (Tracking bonus) similar to the Kronos (Damage and rep amount from Hyperion, tracking from Megathron and web strength bonus "Out of nowhere").
However it would still leave other issues such as cap amount and recharge rate. Currently they all have the same cap amount and recharge, however I hope this was an oversight that will be corrected.
I'm a bit disturbed with the borrowing of bonuses from other races to be honest.. I think that the Golem is the most shocking example. I do hope that they will rethink all bonuses in such a way as to use the already established racial ones to achieve similar results, however I'm a bit doubtful that will happen. Hopefully this isn't the first step to the "technological singularity" so to speak.
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Myra2007
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Posted - 2007.10.27 14:35:00 -
[6]
Sensible solution. Many people have proposed it. Its not overpowered and gives an actual incentive to buy the thing. My experience tells me they won't change anything though. No one can seriously convey these bonuses to me. They should know a web bonus is hardly helpful for missions and not at all for a pulse boat in pvp. A blaster boat in pvp will love it though... I was a bit mad when i saw it. Now i think its quite funny actually. Truth is no matter how much they screw up the worst thing that will happen is people stop training amarr and go gallente/minmatar. Which in turn would only further reduce the need for any balancing at all. So, its kinda good business.
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Sevis
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Posted - 2007.10.28 23:14:00 -
[7]
Ship bonus 10% laser cap user per level 5% Cap size per level 5% armor resist per level 7.5% Tracking per level
+1 low slot +1000pg
The Kronos seems to be the ship to compete with, so I'm going to balance to it. The fact that it fits a lot of the same stuff and has the most comparable guns helps out too.
This seems to be the design structure of Marauder bonuses 1.) Racial weapon equalization bonus 2.) Weapon/ship versatility bonus 3.) Tanking Bonus 4.) Weapon vs small/fast target bonus
For bonus 1, we have to go with the ol' 10% cap use if we want the Paladin to use half the resources of a battleship. This is a state goal of Marauders. As long as this is our racial bonus, it has to be there.
For bonus 2, that web bonus has got to go given the way that pulse lasers work. The web bonus on the Kronos effectively frees up a mid slot. This cap bonus does the same thing to an Amarr ship because now you don't have to fit a Cap Recharger II in there.
For bonus 3, this is the traditional Amarrian tanking bonus. If 5% resist/level is balanced to 7.5% armor rep/level on T1 ships, then it will be slightly less effective on ships with innately higher resists. But it is more effective on plated ships. Fair trade.
For bonus 4, why mess with something that isn't broke? I considered using a bonus to signature res for large turrets, but tracking is better for most uses...even after considering the higher innate beam laser tracking.
Why the +1000pg and +1 low slot?
The basic plan is to get a true low slot advantage on the Paladin. This lowslot advantage is to balance out the additional 50mbit drone bandwidth of the Kronos. This lowslot advantage is NOT suppose to be countered by the fitting requirements of lasers, is has to remain after fitting.
Now, with the new fitting stats, both ships can fit 4 x Best T2 long range weapon, 1 x T2 armor rep, and 1 x T2 MWD, 3 x T2 damage mods, and 1 x T2 Tracking Comp without any fitting mods. In fact, you can fill out the rest of the tank as well with neither one requiring a single fitting mod. The Paladin has 4 remaining low slots, the Kronos has 3. Fit that with a 1600mm and now the Kronos does about 1/3 more damage inside of drone range, but the paladin lasts about 1/3 longer in both HP and Cap.
Do it again with pulses and you get a similair result. The Kronos does more damage but the paladin lasts longer under fire. Additionally, you can use the lowslot advantage to fit a speed mod/nano and maybe even be able to grab a slight range advantage over the Kronos if you dare. An extra plate still probably better though.
With those changes, I would be content to fly a Paladin. It still isn't quite as good as a Kronos in a few ways. For example, the Kronos can use its webber advantage and equip 5 heavy drones. The Paladin would still probably do 5x T2 med and 5x light (maybe ECM?). And the Kronos has more damage in any range where it can use drones. After you meet the minimums, damage is traditionally better than tanking because damage works all the time and tanking only works when you're getting shot. Of course, the Paladin works better (although almost no more damage)in most situations where you can't field drones for whatever reason. That sounds like a pretty fair trade to me.
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Julio Torres
Chosen Path
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Posted - 2007.10.28 23:35:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sevis Ship bonus 10% laser cap user per level 5% Cap size per level 5% armor resist per level 7.5% Tracking per level
+1 low slot +1000pg
etc
This is a sensible change to the Paladin. Why should its T2 bonuses be Gallente & Mintar bonuses? Ship could also use +10/20cpu
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.29 00:04:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 29/10/2007 00:04:09
Originally by: Sevis Ship bonus 10% laser cap user per level
- do you think that the current version of the apoc has cap-problems?
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Ivan Bigun
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Posted - 2007.10.29 00:24:00 -
[10]
Apoc needs to be made the big brother of the Augoror. Give it the usual 10% to energy turret use, and then 10% to armor HP per level.
Then following on from that, give the Paladin the same two base bonuses, with a Marauder bonus of 5% to capacitor capacity and keep the tracking/armor rep bonus.
Paladin shouldn't have any bonuses the Abaddon does, lets leave that for the T2 version of the Abaddon. Apoc/Paladin should be all about the tank, so give them HP bonuses and armor rep bonuses.
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Sevis
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Posted - 2007.10.29 01:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 29/10/2007 00:04:09
Originally by: Sevis Ship bonus 10% laser cap user per level
- do you think that the current version of the apoc has cap-problems?
Nope, and go figure the Apoc has 10% cap use per level on lasers. You can dislike that bonus all you want, but if you want to take advantage of the 100% damage bonus to large lasers, then you'll keep it. If you think the ship will have plenty of cap (something I can't imagine for any Amarr) then work on a replacement for Bonus #2.
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Arana Tellen
Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.29 02:03:00 -
[12]
75 % cap reduction compared to 8 normal lasers (abbadon) or 50% (apoc). Also it gets an effective over 4000 boost over powergrid compared to the abbadon when fitting tachs. Use this for other stuff? ---------------------------------
Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz |
Myra2007
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Posted - 2007.10.29 03:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Arana Tellen 75 % cap reduction compared to 8 normal lasers (abbadon) or 50% (apoc). Also it gets an effective over 4000 boost over powergrid compared to the abbadon when fitting tachs. Use this for other stuff?
How does Paladin have 50% cap use reduction against Apoc? Apoc has the 10% cap usage per level while paladin hasnt. So 4 turrets cost exactly the same cap as 8 on an apoc. Laser cap use reduction on pala: 0%.
Now lets do the math for abaddon. It doesn't get the -10% per level so you end up with double cap use on abaddon. Laser cap use reduction on pala: 50%. (dmg reduction: 25%)
Either i totally don't get your point or your math is just wrong.
It will also have less base cap than both apoc and abaddon...
Apart from the fact that i don't see a real reason to fit tachs (this may be a matter of taste though) the question is how valuable is a little more pg when abaddon has another rig slot for an acr, 25% more dmg and costs a hell of a lot less. Who would seriously field a paladin in fleet combat? In that scenario both the web and the rep bonus are both wasted. While the resistance bonus of abaddon is just fine...
For missions an abaddon will do all of them faster, cheaper and that with megabeams instead of tachyons.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.29 07:06:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sevis
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- do you think that the current version of the apoc has cap-problems?
Nope, and go figure the Apoc has 10% cap use per level on lasers.
so you agree that the cap on the apoc is fine but somehow think that the paladin would need an additional 50% capuse reduction on its lasers on top of that to be good with cap? not counting that the paladin has a better cap recharge to begin with.
the advantage of using only 4 turrets with 100% damae boost lies in having 3 utility slots and an additional bonus wich does not need to be wasted on laser capuse redcution. the bonus should be used to improve one of the weaknesses of the t1 apoc/navy apoc.
now maybe have a look at the mass of whine posts about the apoc/navy apoc..see if you can figure out what people complain about....hint: its not the lack of an additional cap bonus.
the web-bonus itself is pretty stupid on a laser boat but trying to replace it with laser capuse reduction still beats it by a good bit.
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Zana Kito
Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.29 07:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Chief Judge
5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level
5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level
Again you people don't seem to understand, ships can only have a fix number of bonuses. To add a cap bonus to purely compensate for the high cap drain on lasers is NOT a bonus, but a negative as it takes a bonus slot for no real bonus. Makes sense?
Paladin needs a 5% dmg bonus and 5% resist bonus i agree with. But replace that 5% cap bonus with something else. The cap advantage should be INBUILT in armarr ships to follow the theme of "cap race" and "built to handle laser platforms".
After these changes, paladin will tank the same as the kronos, has ~1,200 peak dps, compared to ~1,500 peak dps from kronos. It makes up the lack of dps for the extra range on lasers and is a balanced design. |
Arana Tellen
Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.29 08:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Myra2007
Originally by: Arana Tellen 75 % cap reduction compared to 8 normal lasers (abbadon) or 50% (apoc). Also it gets an effective over 4000 boost over powergrid compared to the abbadon when fitting tachs. Use this for other stuff?
How does Paladin have 50% cap use reduction against Apoc? Apoc has the 10% cap usage per level while paladin hasnt. So 4 turrets cost exactly the same cap as 8 on an apoc. Laser cap use reduction on pala: 0%.
Now lets do the math for abaddon. It doesn't get the -10% per level so you end up with double cap use on abaddon. Laser cap use reduction on pala: 50%. (dmg reduction: 25%)
Either i totally don't get your point or your math is just wrong.
It will also have less base cap than both apoc and abaddon...
Apart from the fact that i don't see a real reason to fit tachs (this may be a matter of taste though) the question is how valuable is a little more pg when abaddon has another rig slot for an acr, 25% more dmg and costs a hell of a lot less. Who would seriously field a paladin in fleet combat? In that scenario both the web and the rep bonus are both wasted. While the resistance bonus of abaddon is just fine...
For missions an abaddon will do all of them faster, cheaper and that with megabeams instead of tachyons.
Sorry, did not relise it did not get the cap bonus. 4000 powergrid lets you fit tank and gank
Its more of a close range pvp ship though IMO. ---------------------------------
Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz |
Sevis
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Posted - 2007.10.29 11:28:00 -
[17]
Because the range on pulse lasers is so hard to quantify, I will explain this using beams.
Every race has a weapon equalization bonus. This is a bonus you find on almost all of their ships that brings the racial weapons they fit into a level playing field. By default, with no ship bonus, Tachs do about 25% more damage than Rails and 33% more damage than Artillary. Go figure, most Gallente ships have a 5% damage/level bonus and Minmatar have a 5% RoF/level bonus. Amarr ships, whose guns are already superior, get a "wasted" bonus because they don't need anything else. After the weapon equalization bonus bonuses are applied, all 3 gun types will be about the same aside from some minor differences in flavor. (Amarr get an innate tracking bonus, Gallente get an innate range bonus, Minmatar get an innate falloff bonus). A straight damage bonus on the Paladin would make it overpowered, doing even more damage than the Kronos does now at all ranges greater than 15km.
Yes, maybe a lot of things should work differently about lasers. But until that happens, this is our racial equalization bonus. It serves to keep other races from mounting lasers, and it does so pretty well. The problem with lasers, especially beams, is that they are double or triple nerfed to make up for this 1 bonus. The fitting requirements on Tachs are sooo high that they make us spend 2 low slots just to fit them. We're the only race that has to do this. People think it doesn't hurt us, because we always get an extra low slot. But to get that low slot we give up a mid. So, depending on where you stop looking we're always at least 1 slot short. If we kept the extra low slot (which is a fair trade for losing a mid) then Amarr boats wouldn't be weak compared to other races. I'll say it again. Add 4500pg to an Apoc and 1 low slot (to balance out the drones) and you'll have a boat that is every bit as good a Megathron and outperforms it in at least a couple of ways.
The 10% cap use per level bonus on Amarr ships is not the problem and it is working fine...especially for Beams. The problem is the fitting costs of beam lasers, and the cap use of pulse lasers.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.29 12:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sevis Because the range on pulse lasers is so hard to quantify, I will explain this using beams.
Every race has a weapon equalization bonus. This is a bonus you find on almost all of their ships that brings the racial weapons they fit into a level playing field. By default, with no ship bonus, Tachs do about 25% more damage than Rails and 33% more damage than Artillary. Go figure, most Gallente ships have a 5% damage/level bonus and Minmatar have a 5% RoF/level bonus. Amarr ships, whose guns are already superior, get a "wasted" bonus because they don't need anything else. After the weapon equalization bonus bonuses are applied, all 3 gun types will be about the same aside from some minor differences in flavor. (Amarr get an innate tracking bonus, Gallente get an innate range bonus, Minmatar get an innate falloff bonus). A straight damage bonus on the Paladin would make it overpowered, doing even more damage than the Kronos does now at all ranges greater than 15km.
Yes, maybe a lot of things should work differently about lasers. But until that happens, this is our racial equalization bonus. It serves to keep other races from mounting lasers, and it does so pretty well. The problem with lasers, especially beams, is that they are double or triple nerfed to make up for this 1 bonus. The fitting requirements on Tachs are sooo high that they make us spend 2 low slots just to fit them. We're the only race that has to do this. People think it doesn't hurt us, because we always get an extra low slot. But to get that low slot we give up a mid. So, depending on where you stop looking we're always at least 1 slot short. If we kept the extra low slot (which is a fair trade for losing a mid) then Amarr boats wouldn't be weak compared to other races. I'll say it again. Add 4500pg to an Apoc and 1 low slot (to balance out the drones) and you'll have a boat that is every bit as good a Megathron and outperforms it in at least a couple of ways.
The 10% cap use per level bonus on Amarr ships is not the problem and it is working fine...especially for Beams. The problem is the fitting costs of beam lasers, and the cap use of pulse lasers.
THIS. I would add about 20-30 CPU more and only the PG. No need for extra slot
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try
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Posted - 2007.10.29 12:12:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sevis Because the range on pulse lasers is so hard to quantify, I will explain this using beams.
Every race has a weapon equalization bonus. This is a bonus you find on almost all of their ships that brings the racial weapons they fit into a level playing field. By default, with no ship bonus, Tachs do about 25% more damage than Rails and 33% more damage than Artillary. Go figure, most Gallente ships have a 5% damage/level bonus and Minmatar have a 5% RoF/level bonus. Amarr ships, whose guns are already superior, get a "wasted" bonus because they don't need anything else. After the weapon equalization bonus bonuses are applied, all 3 gun types will be about the same aside from some minor differences in flavor. (Amarr get an innate tracking bonus, Gallente get an innate range bonus, Minmatar get an innate falloff bonus). A straight damage bonus on the Paladin would make it overpowered, doing even more damage than the Kronos does now at all ranges greater than 15km.
Yes, maybe a lot of things should work differently about lasers. But until that happens, this is our racial equalization bonus. It serves to keep other races from mounting lasers, and it does so pretty well. The problem with lasers, especially beams, is that they are double or triple nerfed to make up for this 1 bonus. The fitting requirements on Tachs are sooo high that they make us spend 2 low slots just to fit them. We're the only race that has to do this. People think it doesn't hurt us, because we always get an extra low slot. But to get that low slot we give up a mid. So, depending on where you stop looking we're always at least 1 slot short. If we kept the extra low slot (which is a fair trade for losing a mid) then Amarr boats wouldn't be weak compared to other races. I'll say it again. Add 4500pg to an Apoc and 1 low slot (to balance out the drones) and you'll have a boat that is every bit as good a Megathron and outperforms it in at least a couple of ways.
The 10% cap use per level bonus on Amarr ships is not the problem and it is working fine...especially for Beams. The problem is the fitting costs of beam lasers, and the cap use of pulse lasers.
I agree on the concept, but its wrong to compare Tachs with Arties and Rails. Tachs are oversized weapons that no other race has. So do the comparison on Mega Beams instead.
I to think Laser are fine damage modification wise, it is the tanking and ease of gap closing that kills them.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.10.29 12:16:00 -
[20]
Personally i dont like the 5% cap bonus. Look at the cargo on those ships, combine that with low m¦ need of ammo for amarr, and you got a ship that screams Heavy cap injector.
For pve, in all honesty i never needed a capbonus to tank stuff on ANY ship with 7 lows. I think the reason the current paladin sucks so much is really simply that it has boni, which are not bad really, but are also not really useful to a laser boat.
So lets replace all the boni of the paladin with useful ones:
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level
5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level 5% bonus to range of turrets requiring Large Beamlaser Specialization
Ok i admit it, i had no idea for a 4th bonus and just tried something. But that bonus would allow using multifreq over greater distance in pve. I know many of you prefer pulselaser, but with a trackingbonus and small rangebonus tachs might really start to shine on this ship.
That way you are always using atleast 3 of your 4 boni regardless of fitting, just like the kronus. Flame away .
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Sevis
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Posted - 2007.10.29 12:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I agree on the concept, but its wrong to compare Tachs with Arties and Rails. Tachs are oversized weapons that no other race has. So do the comparison on Mega Beams instead.
I think that's maybe what they use to be, but they clearly aren't oversized anymore in anything but fitting requirements.
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