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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.31 02:22:00 -
[31]
And probably cheaper to build too _
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Heraku
Visiontek Heavy Research
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Posted - 2007.10.31 08:43:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Vanye Inovske
To be honest, though, the Rorqual looks superior to me for logistics uses. Less cargo space, but 126k with t1 rigs and t2 expanders is a significant fraction of the jump freighters
I really wonder how you get 126k out of a ship with 20k basecargo and only 3 low and 2 rig slots.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.10.31 08:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Heraku
Originally by: Vanye Inovske
To be honest, though, the Rorqual looks superior to me for logistics uses. Less cargo space, but 126k with t1 rigs and t2 expanders is a significant fraction of the jump freighters
I really wonder how you get 126k out of a ship with 20k basecargo and only 3 low and 2 rig slots.
Base cargo was increased to 40k in SiSi
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Khan Dhu
Khan Dhu Research and Cloning
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Posted - 2007.10.31 10:14:00 -
[34]
No one has posted a picture showing build time yet. Considering a T1 freighter takes about 6-7 days to build (w/ or w/o a Beancounter), I'd expect a T2 freighter to take far longer.
Not to mention people are trying to build the case in the Game Development Forum that killing carrier logistics only to have them picked up by these things is a bit stupid since it's going to be 4-6 weeks before the first one is even close to being built.
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Tunak
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Posted - 2007.10.31 10:39:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Khan Dhu No one has posted a picture showing build time yet. Considering a T1 freighter takes about 6-7 days to build (w/ or w/o a Beancounter), I'd expect a T2 freighter to take far longer.
It's 15 days and change on Sisi.
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.10.31 10:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Khan Dhu
Not to mention people are trying to build the case in the Game Development Forum that killing carrier logistics only to have them picked up by these things is a bit stupid since it's going to be 4-6 weeks before the first one is even close to being built.
They can cry me a river. Its called planning. If they know they are going to have though logistics for a while they better plan ahead then. Its not a reason for CCP to not make the change.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Kokob
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Posted - 2007.10.31 10:58:00 -
[37]
CCP needs to grow some kahones and make sure the rorqual doesn't cheat the jump freighters out of a job.
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CaptianBlack
Minmatar R'n'D.
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Posted - 2007.10.31 12:01:00 -
[38]
freighter 64 mech. eng. cores per invention = 120m ish per invention... BS using 32 per invention = 60m ish.... i have a feeling there is gonna be a shortage of ME cores.. i wonder how stocks will be controlled / replenished Use quotes ("") in URL tags or it breaks the layout.-Rauth |
Vanye Inovske
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Friend or Enemy
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Posted - 2007.10.31 18:13:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: Khan Dhu
Not to mention people are trying to build the case in the Game Development Forum that killing carrier logistics only to have them picked up by these things is a bit stupid since it's going to be 4-6 weeks before the first one is even close to being built.
They can cry me a river. Its called planning. If they know they are going to have though logistics for a while they better plan ahead then. Its not a reason for CCP to not make the change.
Planning? People have been planning their logistics. They've been planning based on the state of the game over the past 18 months or so, where carriers have been the best solution to POS fueling. They've trained alts on carriers, they've spent money on second accounts, they've built up corporate capital ship assets, all based on this. Now CCP is yanking the rug out from under over a year's worth of planning. Since I'm not a logistics guy it won't affect my personal gameplay much, but I don't blame those people who do work on the logistics end of things for being upset at this.
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Tek'a Rain
Gallente Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.31 23:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kokob CCP needs to grow some kahones and make sure the rorqual doesn't cheat the jump freighters out of a job.
yeah man, totally! cant have people USING THE BEST TOOL FOR THE JOB. I mean, when I want to do something, I make sure to do it in the slowest and least effective way, because I'm sure thats what CCP wants.
be right back, gotta get some ice for a drink.
yes, I know I have a freezer full right here, but I think flying to the north pole with a spoon and a measuring cup is a Much better way to get what I need.
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Kokob
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Posted - 2007.11.01 00:00:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tek'a Rain
Originally by: Kokob CCP needs to grow some kahones and make sure the rorqual doesn't cheat the jump freighters out of a job.
yeah man, totally! cant have people USING THE BEST TOOL FOR THE JOB. I mean, when I want to do something, I make sure to do it in the slowest and least effective way, because I'm sure thats what CCP wants.
be right back, gotta get some ice for a drink.
yes, I know I have a freezer full right here, but I think flying to the north pole with a spoon and a measuring cup is a Much better way to get what I need.
Exactly. If ccp is gonna spend valuable programing and content creation time to make t2 jump freighters, they darn well be the best tool for the job. Otherwise, they are a waste of code and the resources would have been better spent in doing something else. I'm soo glad you agree with me.
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Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.11.01 03:24:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Vladimir Tinakin on 01/11/2007 03:24:49
Originally by: Kokob
Exactly. If ccp is gonna spend valuable programing and content creation time to make t2 jump freighters, they had better darn well be the best tool for the job. Otherwise, they would be a waste of code and the resources would have been better spent in doing something else. I'm soo glad you agree with me.
Fixt!
At the moment, as they are, they suck ass and are ludicrous for day-to-day 0.0 logistics. "want to operate a pos in deep 0.0? You need a 9 billion isk ship and 50 days of training first."
Granted, a rorqual isn't exactly cheap either, but its much more affordable, easier to train for, and far more readily available. Jump freighters will never be the latter, unless invention gets a huge overhaul or the copy process is accelerated.
They are a good option for bulk moves: masses of minerals, repackaged ships, etc--a 'luxury' option, as it were. Still, I think CCP should give them another 100k cargohold to be truly worthwhile, otherwise there really isn't much point to them.
They're a great idea, they've been long asked for. Their current implementation sucks, but can yet be improved to "serviceable" levels. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards |
Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2007.11.01 04:09:00 -
[43]
Wow. I've seen alot of changes, but these soul destroying changes to logistics have me seriously thinking about throwing it in :( . I already spend 95% of my time moving things around this would mean that just to spend 99% of the time moving things around I'd have to spend billions and months training for something that's not as good and riskier.
There is no upside to this. - Less Space - Less Range - Less defence - More cost for the equipment - More cost for the movement - More difficult to produce
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Roger Douglas
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.11.01 04:19:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Roger Douglas on 01/11/2007 04:20:08 After reading all of the posts (and agreeing with them), it appears that in the end there is only one superior logistics ship:
The Titan.
You can buy a titan's worth of materials for what it would cost to build and invent maybe 5 of these jump freighters. And if you had a titan you could jump an endless supply of freighters into and out of 0.0 when the mood struck you, and you'll need a cap building POS anyway.
So, I believe the t2 jump freighter wimpiness is simply to keep the Titan from becoming obsolete as the king of logistics.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.11.01 04:39:00 -
[45]
Just wait until they change the titan jumpbridge so that it no longer allows jumping freighters _
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.11.01 07:06:00 -
[46]
Lol @ the whines
Most importantly they are not THAT expensive if you build them yourself. What will make them expensive is the margin that builders will be chargeing on them. Base cost including invention is about 3B tops for one. Titan is still at least 40B+ in materials alone and requires 0.0 building where as Jump Freighters can be build in empire, thus giving just about no construction overhead.)
About the HIGH skill reqs compared to rorqual. Lol. It doesnt even require Capital ships skill. Jump frighter takes 5 more lvl V ranks of training to fly from scratch than the Roroqual, and its a bloddy T2 ship. More funny it takes 3 ranks less than a Carrier. (This is NOT counting the skill to actually beeing able to fit a Rorqual and carrier for optimal hauling. You get that on the Jump Freighter right out of the box.)
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Jahya Massai
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Posted - 2007.11.01 08:07:00 -
[47]
From what I'm seeing on SiSi they lowered the building requirements a bit compared to the screenshot on the first post (which I'm assuming was a waste 10% bpo). The biggest reduction is in tech 2 armor plates, 25K (lol) on the first screenie vs 5K now.
At 90% waste it looks like near 2B build cost + invention cost which I'm guesstimating at 400-500m per run (IF the tech 2 output bpcs follow the general rule of 0 + decryptor modifier for 1-run input bpc).
So, taking into consideration effort, risk, investment etc, I'm expecting them to cost 4-5B on the open market. At a hauling capacity of roughly twice that of the Rorqual.. I'm not convinced. Hopefully the devs will boost that cargo bay a bit.
Otherwise it looks promising.
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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.01 12:06:00 -
[48]
I am still wary of the thing to be honest. Going to save up some more, if the Rhea is around 4 Billion then I will go for that over the Rorqual, as all that isk spent on the Capital ship skill and Capital industrial plus T2 cargo rigs will be about the same as the Rhea, training time is scheduled for completion around late December so I don't mind on that count
Originally by: CCP Morpheus
Post with your alt.
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Mean Molly
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Posted - 2007.11.01 13:23:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Mean Molly on 01/11/2007 13:23:26 Production cost of jumpfreighters is currently at 2.4 bill
In addition there will be BPC cost and invention cost. Lets say bcp cost you 200mill, and every attempt at inventing is 140mill / 2 run.
Total cost will then be:
PLS do math before *****ing.... --- Live and learn, die and learn more! http://www.dukefoss.com/eve/ |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.11.01 13:51:00 -
[50]
huh @ molly
I dont get that list...
Anyways, doing the numbers it looks to me like the cost pr. run will be about 200M (over time), so if your base price for materials are right thats still way below to 3B I put as max.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
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Vanye Inovske
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Friend or Enemy
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Posted - 2007.11.01 13:59:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Qual Lol @ the whines
Most importantly they are not THAT expensive if you build them yourself. What will make them expensive is the margin that builders will be chargeing on them. Base cost including invention is about 3B tops for one.
In which case you could be without necessary deep space logistics capability till next Christmas if you have even a moderately unlucky run of invention attempts. I thought you said people were supposed to plan. Doesn't seem like very smart planning for a space-holding alliance to rely on a role of the dice.
Are all these invention cost estimates including the opportunity cost of a freighter bpo not being in production for months on end?
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Kokob
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Posted - 2007.11.01 14:04:00 -
[52]
As to the comments on preparedness, thats a bunch of hog swallop. Alliances have 3 more weeks of the status quo.. they should use the time to prepare for a few months of fuel so they can await their shiny new jump freighters. That would be all too easy though.. better to cry the sky is falling and curse CCP.
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Salia Deluri
Cirrius Technologies O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.11.01 17:01:00 -
[53]
ouch!
OK so this thing does not need jump drive skill? cool Does jump fuel conservation and jump drive calibration affect the jump range like other capitals still?
I am not cool with the BS on not being able to put loaded ships in my carrier. F the logistics what if I just want to move my own stuff or have loaded cruisers? sigh CCP WTF are you doing? I want a ship that can carry anything in the game not some crippled version of a dumpster. I should be able to move a capital ship assembly array in this thing.
but on witht he fight.
With friends like I have who the hell needs enimies so I pray..
Code of Deluri Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today. |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.11.01 19:17:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Vanye Inovske Are all these invention cost estimates including the opportunity cost of a freighter bpo not being in production for months on end?
No they are based on the fact that I can pick up BPC's at 200M each on the market.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Vanye Inovske
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Friend or Enemy
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Posted - 2007.11.01 19:48:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: Vanye Inovske Are all these invention cost estimates including the opportunity cost of a freighter bpo not being in production for months on end?
No they are based on the fact that I can pick up BPC's at 200M each on the market.
And do you honestly believe that price will remain 200M once people are after freighter bpcs for invention? Eventually it may re-stabilize there after people buy bpos for copying purposes, but in the short term there won't be anywhere near enough bpcs on the market for you to use for invention, not at that price.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.01 20:39:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Akita T Just wait until they change the titan jumpbridge so that it no longer allows jumping freighters
Cassandra
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Reapeat Offender
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.01 21:34:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Reapeat Offender on 01/11/2007 21:44:56 Lets pretend that all of what we are seeing on Sisi is currently planned to go live. There a 2 different forces at play that are going to have far reaching negative impacts on deep 0.0 logistics.
The first is the removal of cargo from ships being transported in carrier ship hangar arrays. Carriers are currently relied upon quite heavily for logistics. Alliances will be scrambling for a replacement on relatively short notice. Looking to the past as a guide, it is likely there will be just a few weeks time(tops) before CCP announces this and it goes live. Not a lot of time for "planning", as some have liked to point out in this thread earlier.
So that now leads us to the second issue. What we believe to be CCP's solution to the problem they are creating with the carrier cargo nerf: the t2 jump freighter. The fact that it is t2 and not tier 2 will be the problem. A tier 2 ship being built from a NPC seeded BPO is predictable. Just like the launch of the Rorq last patch. Completed ships were being shipped out right on schedule upon the release of the BPO. That will not be the case for invented ones. The biggest issue is the availability of BPC's. There are only a relative handful of them on the market at any one time. That supply will draw to near 0 once even a hint of this hits the general Eve population. With the cost of the t1 freighter BPO's and the long copy time as hurdles, the BPC supply issue is not likely to be resolved for many many months. They will be trickling onto the market at highly inflated prices. Also keep in mind, not everyone is going to be able to switch their BPO use to copying as t1 production will need to continue since its needed to build the t2. With the long copy times, some BPO's needing to stay in production, huge price hurdle for the average pubbie to get into the BPC making business, the supply of BPC's for the budding inventor is going to be a real challenge and a bottleneck.
Assuming normal invention sucess rates along with the number of chances the motivated inventor is going to even get to try due to bpc availability, it is quite a possible normal outcome that it could take months to actually obtain the invented BPC one needs to build the t2 version. We won't even discuss the build costs, time, need for t1 version that will all be astronomical compared to other invented t2 ships.
So, the situation we have is that a key componet of many logistics chains may be removed without its intended replacement being available for months potentially. Perhaps not available at all for some due to the costs involved.
I will leave the discussion of the validity of both the carrier cargo nerf and its intended replacement being t2 to others. I would just appeal to CCP to not do both of these at the same time. If CCP feels the need to nerf Carrier cargo hauling ability to the point of making it impractical, then at least gives those who currently rely upon it heavily a reasonable amount of time to find alternatives while keeping in mind that obtaining a t2 jump freighter for even the most motivated amongst us could take several months at a minimum.
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.11.01 22:26:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Qual on 01/11/2007 22:37:03 Dont tell me you cant get enough Ragoons together to protect a freighter convoy...
Yes, freighters are still in the game. They are still the ultimate hauler, though very slow, and for the really large empires the Titan jump bridge will still solve the problem of gettin past low sec space in one piece.
Am i saying it is as easy as now? No not by a long shot. But those big blue, red and yellow patches in southern space tells me its way to easy now. Unlike what Sir Molle has told you, eve is NOT about concoring the whole universe. CCP putting an extra hindrence up for wild space grabbing gets my seal of approval.
Edited for spelling
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Vanye Inovske
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Friend or Enemy
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Posted - 2007.11.01 22:38:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Qual You freighter are still in the game. They are still the ultimate hauler, though very slow, and for the really large empires the Titan jump bridge will still solve the problem of gettin past low sec space in piece.
Or maybe not.
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2007.11.01 22:43:00 -
[60]
Yeah, but see the thing with freighters, and I've done MANY freighter convoys: is that what takes 1 hour with carriers takes 6-8 hours of highly organized, large-scale, I-wannna-go-home, gate jumping.
No need to attack his politics, what he said is absolutely right. And believe you me, you do this week in and week out, you will see a large collapse of the EVE economy as people simply stop buying and losing their moms and caps because it will become too much of a hassle to replace them. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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