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Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
120
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Posted - 2012.01.27 10:44:00 -
[61] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Tippia, think about it .....
Even if they are not their mains, the "actual" characters are still High sec toons. The point is: the characters are irrelevant. It's the player that matters. If the player can stomach not living in highsec, then he can stomach not living in highsec, no matter how many of his characters do. When people pull out that number to suggest that somehow highsec players are a majority, they're just dead wrong: it's far more likely that a minority of players are highsec players, and most of them can (and do) live just fine outside of highsec. Do they take advantage of highsec? Sure, but that's just because they'd be stupid not to GÇö not that they can't live without it (which is what the GÇ£highsec is majorityGÇ¥-nutters want to make everyone believe). GǪand to expand on and provide more data points to the issue Malc illustrates above: I live and operate out of highsec. (Nearly) every time I dock, I do it in a highsec station, because I take the time to go GÇ£back homeGÇ¥ before logging off. But I still only operate out of highsec GÇö I frequently go gallivanting around lowsec and shallow nullsec. Am I a highsec player? Given the argumentation I present on these boards, would my highsec living make me a good representative of the highsec players if I were on the CSM?
Would you think it wise to open a thread discussing the reasons for regional bias and discrimination and how relevant they are, or do you think I would be mostly wasting my time with it? It might make an interesting discussion on the merits/downfalls why certain animosities exist and if/why they are valid.
"All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems." |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4566
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Posted - 2012.01.27 10:50:00 -
[62] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Would you think it wise to open a thread discussing the reasons for regional bias and discrimination and how relevant they are, or do you think I would be mostly wasting my time with it? I think you'd have to make a proper case for the existence of such a bias first. If it doesn't exist, there is no reason for it.
So far, people just claim that it exists without any real backing, or by relying on completely counter-factual reasons and sheer tinfoilhattery that is trivial to disprove (but less than trivial to make said tinfoil-hat-bearers accept or understand). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
101
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Posted - 2012.01.27 10:56:00 -
[63] - Quote
Not only is the hi-sec is under represented notion false, hi-sec has no real exclusive content that is broken.
Unless some one has proof of ether of the above points? I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
Kelduum Revaan
EVE University Ivy League
897
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:00:00 -
[64] - Quote
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:For what it's worth, Eve University CEO, Kelduum Revaan has already thrown his fedora into the upcoming election... he is a reasonable and respectable human being.
I may have to get that printed on a tshirt. Kelduum Revaan CEO, EVE University |
Kelduum Revaan
EVE University Ivy League
898
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:07:00 -
[65] - Quote
On the actual subject here, the problem is that the stats produced so far are incomplete, and don't represent the people, as has been mentioned.
However, the game does track visits to systems on a per-character basis as well as number of logins, and with some other data mining it would (at least in theory) be possible for CCP to identify a decent proportion of alt accounts and tie them to the people, and determine how many actual players spend most of their time in Nullsec vs Losec and Hisec. Kelduum Revaan CEO, EVE University |
Evenus Battuta
24
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:24:00 -
[66] - Quote
Why do so many morons here think they are to decide what eve is about?
A company makes a game about making profit, not about your heyIamhardcore&toughinvideogame.
Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4567
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:26:00 -
[67] - Quote
Evenus Battuta wrote:Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you. Who's GÇ£weGÇ¥?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Jafit McJafitson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
209
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:31:00 -
[68] - Quote
Evenus Battuta wrote:Why do so many morons here think they are to decide what eve is about?
A company makes a game about making profit, not about your heyIamhardcore&toughinvideogame.
Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.
Maybe if you cast 66% of the votes or even fielded 66% of the CSM candidates, you'd have some CSM representation. But such is the nature of highsec that you don't have to be organized or pay attention or care about anything but yourself to play, wheras nullsec does have to be organized, so highsec doesn't produce candidates and it doesn't vote.
In this thread: Highsec pubbies demonstrate that they don't understand Eve and they don't understand the basics of how democracy works. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
103
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:31:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Evenus Battuta wrote:Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you. Who's GÇ£weGÇ¥?
He might be right proud to be Hi-sec types buy lots of plexs so as to not have to really work there way in to navy ravens or hulks. But that doesn't mean that there IS any problem with any broken hi-sec exclusive content. And that is still the biggest hole in there QQ
See other parts of the game have what they call problems. Things with there exclusive content that don't work. Ask a null guy how the sove grinding is working out? Or if some caps are just to often the best choice for most situations. Ask a low-sec guy about the problems with a geared for hi-sec GCC system. Ask a FW pilot how the feel about plexing and FW missions. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
378
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:32:00 -
[70] - Quote
The problem with CSM is the same problem with any political system. The available representatives are mouth pieces for those with the resources. The resources are in null. And so, that's where the representation comes from and whom they represent. The CSM is rife with the pitfalls of any RL political system. One need only look at one's own country for an analog.
While Tippia's conclusions are logical, they might not be correct. One can't look at population and representation in order to make conclusions here. Certainly the ghettos of the world outnumber the posh suburban neighborhoods of the wealthy. Yet, representation is clearly in the favor of the few with resources.
I would caution CCP for allowing RL dynamics to overly influence a game which many play to escape their real lives. If there aren't any routes for the escapist to pursue then the escapist will look elsewhere. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
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Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
542
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:32:00 -
[71] - Quote
Evenus Battuta wrote:Why do so many morons here think they are to decide what eve is about?
A company makes a game about making profit, not about your heyIamhardcore&toughinvideogame.
Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.
CCP listening to "real" propositions won't lose, it can benefit the company and the players. |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
27
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:34:00 -
[72] - Quote
I could go for another repeat of Ankhtehblahblah
That drama was extra entertaining. |
Evenus Battuta
24
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:52:00 -
[73] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Evenus Battuta wrote:Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you. Who's GÇ£weGÇ¥?
players have other ways to enjoy ourselves rahter than ruining other's day, or simply don't like being pawns of some arrogant jerks who take a game too seriously.
That's right, we won't be organized. That's why CCP can never know how many subs they already lost.
I for one play the game simply because I like flying spaceship, not because it's some cruel mercyless universe full of sociopath. The space jerk part of the game is something I can take, not the highlight I like. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
366
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:54:00 -
[74] - Quote
To throw out more numbers, one of my RL friends who plays capships has an entire highsec capital building pos sec up, with a complete 10 man alt corp, just to fund his 0.0 pvp habit.
So thats 10 characters who never leave highsec supporting 1 character who roams all of eve killing people.
Is he a highsec or nullsec player?
Or even a lowsec player, since his play style is mostly piratical in style, even tho he mainly does it in null. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
366
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 11:58:00 -
[75] - Quote
Evenus Battuta wrote:Tippia wrote:Evenus Battuta wrote:Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you. Who's GÇ£weGÇ¥? players have other ways to enjoy ourselves rahter than ruining other's day, or simply don't like being pawns of some arrogant jerks who take a game too seriously. That's right, we won't be organized. That's why CCP can never know how many subs they already lost. I for one play the game simply because I like flying spaceship, not because it's some cruel mercyless universe full of sociopath. The space jerk part of the game is something I can take, not the highlight I like.
To quote one of the CCP devs - 'Eve isn't supposed to look like a cold, dark, merciless universe. It is supposed to BE a cold dark merciless universe.'
In other words, thats the point. If you have a problem with that, perhaps you should look for another space game. TOR isn't bad, the pvp kinda sucks, but it doesn't sound like that will bother you, and you even get to fly a spaceship around.
You don't have to be a sociopath to play, or even enjoy Eve, but if you are not, you better enjoy having to take them on. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4569
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:06:00 -
[76] - Quote
Evenus Battuta wrote:Tippia wrote:Evenus Battuta wrote:Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you. Who's GÇ£weGÇ¥? players have other ways to enjoy ourselves rahter than ruining other's day, or simply don't like being pawns of some arrogant jerks who take a game too seriously. That's right, we won't be organized. That's why CCP can never know how many subs they already lost. I for one play the game simply because I like flying spaceship, not because it's some cruel mercyless universe full of sociopath. The space jerk part of the game is something I can take, not the highlight I like. OookayGǪ but who's this GÇ£weGÇ¥ who pay 66% of the subs? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Ganagati
Perkone Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.01.27 12:07:00 -
[77] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:
To quote one of the CCP devs - 'Eve isn't supposed to look like a cold, dark, merciless universe. It is supposed to BE a cold dark merciless universe.'
Supposedly CCP wrangler said that... or rather, said:
"EVE is not designed to look like a cold, dark, unforgiving world. It's designed to BE a cold, dark, unforgiving world"
but I've been looking and can't find the original quote to save my life, just other people saying he said it. |
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
204
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:07:00 -
[78] - Quote
CSM democracy is just badly broken.
If 200,000 carebears vote for 20 carebear PvE candidates, they get 10,000 votes each If 100,000 nulsec players vote for 4 nulsec PvP candidates, those get 25,000 votes each.
How is this outcome and CSM representative for the player population? Let people vote for ideas, not candidates, to see what the playerbase really wants.
Or do pre-elections like the americans do and have only 2 candidates or parties. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4569
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:14:00 -
[79] - Quote
Cathy Drall wrote:CSM democracy is just badly broken.
If 200,000 carebears vote for 20 carebear PvE candidates, they get 10,000 votes each If 100,000 nulsec players vote for 4 nulsec PvP candidates, those get 25,000 votes each.
How is this outcome and CSM representative for the player population? Because those 20 carebears have 20 different and probably disparate opinions and platforms that they want to promote, each with only ~10k supporters.
The 4 nullsec candidates have 4 different and probably disparate opinions and platforms that they want to promote, each with ~25k supporters.
Any one of those nullsec platforms have more people supporting it than any one of the highsec platforms. The outcome accurately shows how much support each platform has and thus represents those ideas that the largest number of people can get behind.
If those 20 highsec platforms aren't all that different, they should probably try to consolidate themselves into a single platform (or, say, as few as 4 or 5) to more accurately represent the different views that people hold. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
104
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:17:00 -
[80] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Evenus Battuta wrote:Tippia wrote:Evenus Battuta wrote:Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you. Who's GǣweGǥ? players have other ways to enjoy ourselves rahter than ruining other's day, or simply don't like being pawns of some arrogant jerks who take a game too seriously. That's right, we won't be organized. That's why CCP can never know how many subs they already lost. I for one play the game simply because I like flying spaceship, not because it's some cruel mercyless universe full of sociopath. The space jerk part of the game is something I can take, not the highlight I like. OookayGǪ but who's this GǣweGǥ who pay 66% of the subs?
I think hi-sec guy is selling me the plex's that keep my alts going. Or maybe not, might just be null guy trying to get a replacement carrier for the one he lost ratting. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
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Jafit McJafitson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
212
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 13:10:00 -
[81] - Quote
Cathy Drall wrote:CSM democracy is just badly broken.
If 200,000 carebears vote for 20 carebear PvE candidates, they get 10,000 votes each If 100,000 nulsec players vote for 4 nulsec PvP candidates, those get 25,000 votes each.
How is this outcome and CSM representative for the player population? Let people vote for ideas, not candidates, to see what the playerbase really wants.
Or do pre-elections like the americans do and have only 2 candidates or parties.
Seeing as how there are 14 CSM seats, your example would mean that there would be 4 nullsec CSM members and 10 Highsec CSM members.
The real problem is that you don't produce candidates and you don't vote. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
543
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 14:46:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jafit McJafitson wrote:Cathy Drall wrote:CSM democracy is just badly broken.
If 200,000 carebears vote for 20 carebear PvE candidates, they get 10,000 votes each If 100,000 nulsec players vote for 4 nulsec PvP candidates, those get 25,000 votes each.
How is this outcome and CSM representative for the player population? Let people vote for ideas, not candidates, to see what the playerbase really wants.
Or do pre-elections like the americans do and have only 2 candidates or parties. Seeing as how there are 14 CSM seats, your example would mean that there would be 4 nullsec CSM members and 10 Highsec CSM members. The real problem is that you don't produce candidates and you don't vote. TEST propaganda |
Di Mulle
33
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Posted - 2012.01.27 16:12:00 -
[83] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:The problem with CSM is the same problem with any political system. The available representatives are mouth pieces for those with the resources. The resources are in null. And so, that's where the representation comes from and whom they represent.
The one and only final resource needed to be elected is voters. Number of them. Some people try hard to convince that absolute majority live in highsec (and that that imagined majority has a very special interests, which evil minority manages to ignore and stomp on, etc. etc. and further nonsense).
Natural conclusion is then that resources needed to be elected are in a highsec... Something is wrong in some of the pictures, isn't it.
CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
Di Mulle
33
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Posted - 2012.01.27 16:16:00 -
[84] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Right at this moment, 3 of my 6 "toons" are in hi-sec systems, 1 is in lo-sec, while the other two are in Venal. Am I a "high sec player"?
If I were a CSM, would you say that I was unable to represent hi-sec players? Or would I be unable to represent 0.0 players?
That is simple question, but the "balanced" (or whatever it is called) elections evangelists will never bother to produce an answer. CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
nate555
GODHC INTERSTELLAR FLEET
39
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Posted - 2012.01.27 16:27:00 -
[85] - Quote
I may live in high sec but when I can I go to low sec to pew pew. Not a whole lot of money in high sec. Incursions over crowded. Missions are my passion |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
204
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 16:46:00 -
[86] - Quote
ILikeMarkets wrote:
Anyhow, over the past year I've watched level 4s in highsec get nerfed in their drops and locations (many being pushed to lowsec). I've seen PI in highsec get nerfed, mining in highsec get stomped into the ground. And I can't help but wonder- would these changes have taken place if there were more vocal highsec players on the CSM to say "Wait, stop. What are you doing? There are a TON of players who enjoy highsec gameplay and you are basically screwing them over". The changes didn't move anyone into lowsec or 0.0 that weren't already there. All it did was just make them a little more miserable. Honestly, I don't see the point.
101 of why hisec gets nerfs:
1) When its copious ISK faucets are not balanced with its own ISK sinks + low sec sinks + WH sinks + 0.0 sinks.
EvE IS its economy, letting economy rot like in the other MMOs would kill EvE fast.
Apparently CCP keep introducing new features balancing the ISK outflow like they had low sec risk (ships popping and stuff) while they get spammed in hi sec where ISK outflow is minimal at best. The results? Dr. Ejyo The Economist screams: "Okay, Houston, we've had a problem here" and then the nerf comes.
2) Because not a single MMO allows any significant improvement of players who stay in the starting areas. EvE is actually the most lenient game. Try getting rich in WoW or anywhere else by sitting in the capital town and the surrounding zone. Try doing "heroics" or "raids" in the starter zones. No, you get sh!tty grey drops, crappy minerals, basic instances. Compare this with L4s, incursions, both give almost top notch to top notch revenue while sitting in the beginner area.
Basically they keep |
Zyress
Deaths Head Brigade Gryphon League
24
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Posted - 2012.01.27 17:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
Write in Ron Paul for CSM |
Dunbar Hulan
The Flaming Sideburn's Art of War Alliance
60
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Posted - 2012.01.27 18:02:00 -
[88] - Quote
I'll step up for hi sec empire players, let me be your voice on the CSM. I think it's time Empire was represented and your voice heard. Right after being elected , I will push for the following :
1. Docking/ Redocking delay of 15 minutes- As you sit there admiring your Raven Navy issue with officer mods, I think it's unfair that you don't get a chance to use them against another player.So when you get aggro from someone/WT you can show them the mistake they made in taking you on in your officer mod fitted ship.
2. Move level 4 missions to low sec and level 5 missions to NPC null. Empire is way too crowded, you need more room to get these missions done.
3. Make Incursion systems 0.0 systems for the duration of the Incursion. That way you can bring in the heavy stuff to really show Sansha a thing or two.
Who's with me ? -áThe Sideburns- Always Outnumbered- Never Outgunned. Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
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Posted - 2012.01.27 18:41:00 -
[89] - Quote
Actually, to improve your safety, I was about to suggest that CONCORD help take care of the invasions.
If I recall correctly, their biggest police ship is capable of killing an enemy supercarrier in one shot. This will be a shot heard all around Empire. The smaller ships can take care of the rest of the enemy fleet, to ensure that the system is perfectly safe to mine in.
Of course anyone attempting to interfere with CONCORD handling of the clear and present threat would be similarly neutralized. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
576
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 19:34:00 -
[90] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:I could go for another repeat of Ankhtehblahblah
That drama was extra entertaining.
Will you vote for the Voice of Reason candidates if we promise to throw sporks?
Issler Dainze Voice of Reason Party CSM 7 Caandidate |
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