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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.31 17:07:00 -
[1]
Now unfortunately i cant get on the test server atm due to some issue but from the last info i saw on there stats i really do wonder if ccp have really thought about the jump drive capabilitys of the black ops. Last base range i saw was 2 lightyears with cal lv4 that gets upped to 4 lightyears now assuming you have jump fuel calibration lv4 (again basing off last stats i saw of 1000 units of the iso per jump) a single jumps worth of fuel could take up to 360m3 of fuel add in the fuel for a jumpbridge your looking at over half your cargohold to go one way add in ammo (completely ignoring cap boosters) and you have no space.
Now its all well and good saying that the fuel logistics is a problem but this is just pointless why even use the jumpdrive its such a waste it would make more sense if say one of the T2 haulers had the ability to jump along with you but coupled with the currently shockingly bad cloaking abilitys (much has been said how allowing them to use a cov ops cloak would be overpowered but its not like they do huge dps or have great tanks anyway) CCP seems to have prenerfed this ship class more than any other in the history of eve.
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Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
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Posted - 2007.10.31 17:22:00 -
[2]
base: 2 ly, 400 isotopes
Range upped 25% per Jump Drive Calibration lvl. (lvl 4 required) -10% jump fuel per Jump Fuel Conservation lvl.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.31 17:29:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Random Womble on 31/10/2007 17:30:56 Edited by: Random Womble on 31/10/2007 17:30:44 The new consumption ammount is news to me as i said in my earlier post i cant get on sisi atm so could not check and im well aware of what the effects of the jump skills are, even so a one way trip will take up to 144m3 with 4/4 skills which is still quite a chunk of your cargo without including the fuel for the jumpbridge.
It would also not be so bad if there was say a bonus to consumption ammount per black ops level.
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 15:20:00 -
[4]
ohmy. 2 Ly base. :(
as far as i know that means max jump bridge raneg is 2ly + skill too, so max 4.5 ly.
thats not enough. last time i checked it had 4ly and that was just fine. increase the needed amount, so you can jump further, but will not have enough cargo space to make the jump back without having expanders fitted.
seems a reasonable tradeoff to me then.
go far, but no way back, or gimped fighting ability, no change for short range jumps.
2 ly is not enough.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.01 16:01:00 -
[5]
Personally i really dont have any issue with jump range and yes i do know how short it is however you only really need it to get past a couple of systems in one go. As for fitting expanders the combat abilitys of these ships are not spectacular as it is and the minnie one gets a speed bonus so that would kind of defeat the point, black ops and recons should be able to work away from home in hostile areas not have to go back home every 5 minutes to get either ammo or fuel. True that if it could just jump around the whole of eve in one go it would be overpowered but is 4/5 jumps with no ammo or 2/3 with (not including jumpbridge fuel) really enough? Again going on old stats the cargoholds are about the same size as the T1 varient and yet they are supposed to contain jump fuel on top of ammo and more than likely cap boost charges. I would be intrested how a seperate fuelhold would effect things (Like the current stront bit of the POS) especially as this would remove any abuses like daul cap injected widow tanks of insanity.
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 16:29:00 -
[6]
The seperate fuel hold is a nice idea, but i doubt it will be possible to do without extensive code changes.
My problem with the jump range is, that i cant even reach all systems in my region, and i think, it kind of breaks its role as a covert ship. you will have to move fairly close to the target system, unless you allready live next door to your enemys, you will be spotted, which kind of ruins the surprise.
and as a Ship accessible to smaller corps, who dont have access to a titan, you cant even jumpbridge your covert fleet to somewhere close, and go from there.
And besides, i dont see a problem with the former 4ly range + skill. its not like you can move whole fleets with it or move massive amounts of cargo. Its simply not dangerous enough to warrant such a short range.
if you have to move from your homebase with close enough to jump into an enemy system, Then you have to bring a hauler along for the fuel needed to jumpbridge in the recons/bombers. (from another post here, which stated, you just have enough cargo space to move 2 or 3 recons.) This hauler, then needs to cloak, or log or be guarded by another fleet, in short binding more people who cant take part in the actual black ops. As said, this is mainly a concern for smaller corps, but i guess those would like to make use of that ship too.
a larger jumprange would remedy that problem, making it possible to jump from your homebase to your enemy, removing need of fuel hauler/guards. And if the jump fuel amount is balanced right, you cannot jump back if you go long distance. but get the possibility of easy return when limiting yourself to a shorter range.
That would mean that you can choose according to tactical reasonings, if its better to use gates for several jumps to get close to target system, and risk being spotted, or jump longrange, and risk being trapped.
mucho text, sory. but i was realy looking forward to the 4ly baserange, and i'm a bit disapointed at them moment.
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Azuse
The Brotherhood Of The Blade Pure.
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Posted - 2007.11.01 16:42:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Random Womble Personally i really dont have any issue with jump range and yes i do know how short it is however you only really need it to get past a couple of systems in one go. As for fitting expanders the combat abilitys of these ships are not spectacular as it is and the minnie one gets a speed bonus so that would kind of defeat the point, black ops and recons should be able to work away from home in hostile areas not have to go back home every 5 minutes to get either ammo or fuel. True that if it could just jump around the whole of eve in one go it would be overpowered but is 4/5 jumps with no ammo or 2/3 with (not including jumpbridge fuel) really enough? Again going on old stats the cargoholds are about the same size as the T1 varient and yet they are supposed to contain jump fuel on top of ammo and more than likely cap boost charges. I would be intrested how a seperate fuelhold would effect things (Like the current stront bit of the POS) especially as this would remove any abuses like daul cap injected widow tanks of insanity.
This. --------------------------
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 18:04:00 -
[8]
Currently on sisi:
example redeemer: cargobay: 600m3 Fuel needed (helium isotopes): 400 (per ly) Helium isotopes: 0,15m3 per unit. cargo space needed per ly: 60 reduction from jump fuel conservation skill: up to -50%
max jumprange: 4,5 ly max cargo need: 270 (no reduction) 135 (jump fuel conservation 5)
Now, IF it had 4 ly base: max jumprange: 9 ly max cargo need: 540 (no jump fuel conservation skill) 270 (jump fuel conservation 5)
In my opinion, 4 ly range would be completly in order for the ship. As you can see it could do a 2-way trip on its maximum jumprange but would basicly have no cargo whatsoever, and you would need jump fuel conservation skill level at lvl 5 to be able to do it.
But it would at least give you the option to go in without a chance to return by jumpdrive. The only diffrence now is, that you have half your cargohold free for ammo at maximum jumprange, if you want to jump back, and have decent level of jump fuel conservation skill.
Or to put it another way:
If you want to jump back, you cant go further than about 4-5 lightyears, unless you dont plan on carrying ammo.
Meaning, the jumprange is allready limited by that factor, and there is realy no need to put a hard cap of 4.5 ly on the ship.
Risk vs. reward? Give players the option of longer jumps for risk of getting killed because they cant jump back.
As said: the limit of 2 ly, just limits the amount of risk the players can put the ship in. if it stays at that range, everyone, will allways have the option to put enough fuel in it to jump back, even without any jump fuel conservation skill.
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Azuse
The Brotherhood Of The Blade Pure.
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Posted - 2007.11.01 19:38:00 -
[9]
Well the purpose is supposedly operate behind enemy lines for extended periods of time in a gang, therefore it need to be capable of both getting there and returning.
Range is less of an issue imo, probably ccps to now it's lower than all capital ranges although the general rule is the bigger it is the less it can jump but since this ship isn't a capital it's safe to assume ccp skipped that one , probably for the bridges. currently the only factor which limits a jump bridges range is the jump range of the generating ship and naturally they don't want us throwing stacks of ships deep behind the front lines. Limiting the jump bridge range would be one of the ways you could safely increase ship jump range.
What gets to me, as the op stated, are the cargo holds.
I am currently im my blaster Domi, it's got a 600m3 hold wich is compltly full with:
a. ammo
b. boosters
and im tight right now, particularly on operating range with booster dependency. The Sin on the other hand, is supposed to have an increased operating range however it is only capable of carrying the same amount of ammo and charges as my current Domi. This is not a bad thing in the whole, it means i can't load 30 boosters into my ship and maintain a silly tank, however it also mean that i cant carry any additional consumables, i.e:
c. isotopes and stront
and for me this is the issue. It has reduced hit points on the basis it's wingmen will be loaded with ecm etc. however without an increased cargo capacity it also means it is not capable fo performing it's intended role and to me the sound wrong. The only way (as also stated previously) the ship could be made to carry the additional materials without allowing players to sustain cap booster heavy tanks would be separate bays.
In short; it does not matter how far you can, or cannot jump in a ship if when you arrive, you cannot perform your job. I hope ccp will take these issues under consideration, or at the least inform the player base why they chose this method of design when you also take fitting room into consideration.
From my perspective currently it's a good thing i was training for amarr capitals, they appear to have the upper hand for once .
Az --------------------------
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2007.11.01 19:53:00 -
[10]
Easy, get a hauler into space before you go in and put up a fueling secure can in a ss. Problem solved.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente Omniscient Order Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.11.01 20:00:00 -
[11]
The Jump range is fine as it is. It can go just far enough to avoid camps and dangerous areas like bottlenecks, but not so far that you'll see it being used as a taxi just to ferry people around left and right.
Don't forget that the jump drive is NOT this ship's main method of travel. It will rely on jump gates like everything else, and the jump drive is used to avoid detection/fast way into enemy space.
This isn't a solo ship, either -- you'll have at least a few friendlies with you and they've got plenty of cargo room to support your portal generator and jump drive which increases your maximum range by a good margin.
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 21:23:00 -
[12]
interesting to see that i'm the only one who has a problem with the short range. I still think these 2 issues are connected. If you can initiate the operation from your homebase, you dont need to move fuel around, can jumpbridge ships to destination, and then everyone has only to carry the fuel for the return trip.
Which is prety much the only way i see this working. without massively reducing the fuel needs of bridge and jumpdrive.
in no case will you be able to have the fuel with you to do several jumpbridges and jumps. hence the my requsting the range to be put back to 4, which was just perfect.
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twit brent
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.11.01 22:06:00 -
[13]
Im liking blackops the way there are right now. Oh and a covert ops cloak would be very overpowered on a ship like this.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.02 00:45:00 -
[14]
What actually leads you to believe it would be overpowered? you might want to run some figures on tank and DPS, the way i see the ship is a way of inserting a strike group behind the enemy and coming along as a portion of the DPS (not a huge ammount) except theres no surprise really with a normal cloak and then ofcourse you can barely manage to get there in the first place with any ammo or cap boosters.
I know they are meant to use gates most of the time but only allowing the black ops to do one in then out job before returning home (which could be quite some distance since its meant to be behind enemy lines not on the front) seems pointless. Please dont mention trying to bring a hauler along with you again because its not likely to get far if say the blockade runners could jump with the black ops then fine but otherwise no. Your gang mates are not likely to have much room to store fuel for you either unless they need to head back to base after a short period or perhaps thats part of the whole nerf carrier plan have one jump with you to act as a forward outpost (kinda hard to miss again slightly defeating the point).
Will i still fly them? Probably intially but atm if i get one it probably will just be the one for testing purposes since i cant get on SiSi.
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Sha'ara Sha'amashira
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Posted - 2007.11.02 11:40:00 -
[15]
The Problem i think here is that everyone is looking at this sucker like its a mix between both force and fleet recon ships. Each of these will require entirely different setups for these ships as far as i can tell. If you want to fit it as a cloaking damage dealer then it will be good but not the best. If you wanna fit it like its a fleet recon it will be nothing but Jumping and Jump Bridging with its tank and then mostly full of nothing but fuel. After that if you want to jump bridge for smaller ships if your not jumping in stealth bombers, which should easily be able to jump back out on their own after they have been dropped in to clear something like a gate camp with bombs. Most of the cov ops ships you will send it will not have much to really place in their cargo holds except for probes, if they take less probes thats basically and extra 150 cargo hold per cov ops ships that you jump through to carry extra fuel for you. Thats the way i've been seeing how this is gonna work at least.
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Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2007.11.03 04:57:00 -
[16]
These are ONLY supposed to be able to say jump past 1 gate camped system. That's it. So you enter 0.0 by bypassing whatever 23x7 gatecamp is setup on your entry point jumping 1 jump in behind them, then continue to use normal gates for the rest of your journey. So far it's the ONLY jump-capable ship that can use gates and jump. When you're done playing around you use another single jump to bypass a gatecamp. That's it. Fuel for 2 jumps is all that it needs to fulfill this role. Sure more is nice, but if you want more, you need to sneak in your own fuel supply.
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2007.11.03 07:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Admiral Nova These are ONLY supposed to be able to say jump past 1 gate camped system. That's it. So you enter 0.0 by bypassing whatever 23x7 gatecamp is setup on your entry point jumping 1 jump in behind them, then continue to use normal gates for the rest of your journey. So far it's the ONLY jump-capable ship that can use gates and jump. When you're done playing around you use another single jump to bypass a gatecamp. That's it. Fuel for 2 jumps is all that it needs to fulfill this role. Sure more is nice, but if you want more, you need to sneak in your own fuel supply.
You have to get something capable of creating a cyno field past that gate camp. If you can get a recon ship through it, you can get the blackops BS through it. If you align manually while cloaked it runs gate camps just as well as a recon ship.
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Kublai Khan
Caldari TAOSP Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.03 07:36:00 -
[18]
Meh I wish they let them use the Covert Ops cloack. Then ppl would use them in PvP as well. Would be hard to catch, but anything dies in a dictorbubble anyway and the setup on these ships would probably make them cost in the range of 1-3Bns anyway. A bit longer jumprange wouldnt be bad, tho 2,5 to 3 Ly base probably is sufficient :)
Wouldnt be harder to catch than nano rigged ships are today anyhow...
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Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2007.11.03 09:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Xequecal You have to get something capable of creating a cyno field past that gate camp. If you can get a recon ship through it, you can get the blackops BS through it. If you align manually while cloaked it runs gate camps just as well as a recon ship.
Not quite, because while you can jump in 'cloak and pray' and then get out of a bubble and warp. In the reverse direction it's much easier in a cov-ops cloaking ship as you're not seen when you hit the edge of the bubble, infact, not seen at all until you jump.
You can also cyno off a frigate classed ship, which could MWD out of a bubble. You could also cyno into a ship that was pre-placed.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.03 11:48:00 -
[20]
All ships should have seperate fuel bays imo .. volatile radioactive goodies and ot ammunition in the same bay? It's a miracle we don't explode half the time without a shot fired :P
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