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Molly Parker Minmatar Independent Manufacturers	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:13:00 - [121] Non mission runners will never understand your problem. It is like in the early days miners posted about griefers. I can only recommend to u searching for an agent assigning u to lvl4 missions in 0.5 or above. I found some and it works perfectly. Just turn down lowsec missions when the agent gives u one. U think it's cowardice? No it's just not being stupid. Fitted for soloing a lvl4 mission makes u unable to fight multiple pvp fitted enemies usually. As for reward it doesn't matter if the agent sends u to lowsec or not. That is the good side. Just skip lowsec for missions if u hate being interrupted or shot down. Doesn't sound like it's the intended game mechanic? Well survival is the most important thing in eve. Do whatever is necessary and possible to accomplish it.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:16:00 - [122] Originally by: SN3263827 If it was not intended, it would have been removed rather than simply made more difficult in the first patch after Kali. Yeah, because how it currently works is such a great indicator of how it was supposed to work. See stacking MWDs, nanofibers, NOS, mineral compression via built items, BPO lottery, and drones with free will... -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:18:00 - [123] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather I mean, what's the point of a mission if someone else steals the mission specific loot (no one can use it anyway but you AFAIK) and prevents you from finishing it ? Causing grief. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:20:00 - [124] Originally by: Mamba Lev If you read the OP and indeed the title of the thread you will find the word 'Mission'. AT no point does it say i was wandering round 0.0 and i got shot boo hoo. Thanks for taking the time to really read the thread and join the debate. I wasn't whining. Someone suggested waiting untill DT. Ace idea, lose the time bonus and the use of that agent for how ever many hours. Like i said there is enough risk from some missions themselves without having to worry about getting ganked when your ship isn't set up for it. I like PvP and and PvE. Missions should have no risk from outside interference. Like i said if i want the risk i'll go roaming in a ship set up for ratting and capable of defending itself from PvP. Mission rewards from running in low-sec compared to high-sec are not big enough to warrant the far greater risk. I do like the idea of a limited Concord response in low-sec. When you log in, you are consenting to PVP, does that make it simple enough for you? I understand your feelings about having zero risk all reward areas for you to get phat l00ts all day, but understand first that every player before you had it this way, and we're not interested in helping to make it easier for you when we took the hard road of learning to deal with it. We got shot, we got ransomed, we got podded with no mercy. So what makes you more special than us princess?
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:25:00 - [125] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Ares Lightfeather I mean, what's the point of a mission if someone else steals the mission specific loot (no one can use it anyway but you AFAIK) and prevents you from finishing it ? Causing grief. For me, causing grief is fine as long as you can grief the griefer back. Which, in this case, you can't. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:37:00 - [126] Edited by: OneSock on 08/11/2007 14:37:26 Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: OneSock Certain rules could be in place to say concord only assist in deadspace or belts but not at moons, gates or stations. Yes, because it makes perfect sense that Concord will come and assist someone in the middle of a pirate stronghold (deadspace) and ignore all the pirates. Hmm yes because it makes perfect sense that Concord will come and assist someone in the middle of a pirate stronghold (deadspace) and ignore all the pirates in high-sec. Oh and I suppose it also makes perfect sense that Concord provide consequences in 0.5 but sod all in 0.4. It's just a designation given by CCP as a demarkation but makes no sense. Even the difference in response between 1.0 and 0.5 sec space is very little other than 20 seconds response time. This is the thing, pirates whine because low sec is dead and they have nothing to shoot, then they whine about any proposal to encourage people to move into low sec. Genius.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:51:00 - [127] Originally by: Mamba Lev Like i said there is enough risk from some missions There's next to no risk in missions if you do them right. High sec you hardly have to even be there. Low sec is only slightly more demanding in the paying attention aspect. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:52:00 - [128] Originally by: OneSock This is the thing, pirates whine because low sec is dead and they have nothing to shoot, then they whine about any proposal to encourage people to move into low sec. Genius. It's usually because those 'proposals to encourage' involve some sort of immunity, and that does nothing for them anyways. The problem that's realized by Hisec dwellers is they don't need each other, all they need is their ship and something to shoot at and they're good. They're not interested in ganging together for survival - it isn't required. If there's an option where they're not required to do x to get to y, they'll do that, and then cry when x pops up.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.08 15:03:00 - [129] Originally by: Christari Zuborov It's usually because those 'proposals to encourage' involve some sort of immunity, and that does nothing for them anyways. The problem that's realized by Hisec dwellers is they don't need each other, all they need is their ship and something to shoot at and they're good. They're not interested in ganging together for survival - it isn't required. If there's an option where they're not required to do x to get to y, they'll do that, and then cry when x pops up. Not everybody has time to create and maintain sufficient in-game relationships to be able to yank someone into a pretty selfish endeavor at the drop of a hat. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Caol UK Corp	Posted - 2007.11.08 15:11:00 - [130] Edited by: Caol on 08/11/2007 15:11:33 This thread may be a troll but just wanted to add that missions need to be scannable. I run the odd mission in Placid, I have been scanned down by pirate corps such as The Movement, Veto and a few others but thats the game. I have been ganked 2-3 times on gates and in missions but its really a cost instead of a game ending event. If you know the aggro in Level 4 missions you can run them with named cruise launchers, good skills and t1 hardeners (no lie). Doing so in an insured Raven means if you are ganked in a mission you loose what? 20-30mil tops? There is a 60-70% proof way to avoid being ganked in mission belts - use your scanner. Always have your scanner up, set it to 360 deg and hit scan every time you kill an npc or something. If you see a buzzard, cheetah, anathema or helios on scan then chances are someone has probes out (ofc, you may not catch the covert on scan whilst its launching its probes) - though who knows, pirates may use no covert ships to scan in the future. If you suddenly see a few hacs pop up on scan, align to a station and reduce your scan range to check. Simple put, all the tools are there for you to survive at the end of the day.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.08 15:31:00 - [131] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Ares Lightfeather I mean, what's the point of a mission if someone else steals the mission specific loot (no one can use it anyway but you AFAIK) and prevents you from finishing it ? Causing grief. What you forgot to mention is that if they do it in HIGH SEC (you know, that place you can't shoot first?) is that it is a petitionable offense to steal the mission-specific item. The answer is simple: Don't do missions in LowSec if you are being harassed by pirates. Do like the rest of us good carebears do and smile and wave to them from Empire Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Kastar Memphis Technologies Intergalactic Brotherhood	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:26:00 - [132] Originally by: Mambo Ted Why did someone think this was a good idea?? I'm doing a Level 4 mission 'Enemies Abound' (tricky enough as it is) i notice reds in system and go to station to wait for them to bugger off. Meanwhile they've probed out the spot and finished it off and taken what i needed to complete it. So now i've lost standing and a very lucrative mission. Ace. That was fun. The excitment never ends. If your doing a mission you should be undiscoverable to PvPrs. Disagreed. Whet you really need to do is be nice to your co-pilots in system doing the same thing and assure mutual defense. Either the pirate types learn fast enough not to mess with you, or you can duke it out and have fun nonetheless. Kas -----------------------------------------------
Modrak Vseth Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:33:00 - [133] Originally by: OneSock Oh and I suppose it also makes perfect sense that Concord provide consequences in 0.5 but sod all in 0.4. It's just a designation given by CCP as a demarkation but makes no sense. Even the difference in response between 1.0 and 0.5 sec space is very little other than 20 seconds response time. Just like the arbitray lines between countries setup by their governments keep their respective armies from crossing those arbitray lines. Originally by: OneSock This is the thing, pirates whine because low sec is dead and they have nothing to shoot, then they whine about any proposal to encourage people to move into low sec. Genius. Low sec mission runners can only be caught in two places: the gate or in their mission. When low sec mission runners ask that they be invulnerable in their mission, it reduces that to gates only. This of course would reduce the number of targets available to pirates, hence the concern. It would also ENCOURAGE gatecamps. Is that something you're actually interested in?
Mamba Lev The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:40:00 - [134] Edited by: Mamba Lev on 08/11/2007 16:39:55 Originally by: Christari Zuborov When you log in, you are consenting to PVP, does that make it simple enough for you? I understand your feelings about having zero risk all reward areas for you to get phat l00ts all day, but understand first that every player before you had it this way, and we're not interested in helping to make it easier for you when we took the hard road of learning to deal with it. We got shot, we got ransomed, we got podded with no mercy. So what makes you more special than us princess? Hmm so your saying i had it hard so you can too, are you from yorkshire? What a valuable member of society you are. Originally by: Caol There is a 60-70% proof way to avoid being ganked in mission belts - use your scanner. Always have your scanner up, set it to 360 deg and hit scan every time you kill an npc or something. If you see a buzzard, cheetah, anathema or helios on scan then chances are someone has probes out (ofc, you may not catch the covert on scan whilst its launching its probes) - though who knows, pirates may use no covert ships to scan in the future. If you suddenly see a few hacs pop up on scan, align to a station and reduce your scan range to check. Thanks for the top tip dude.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:53:00 - [135] Originally by: OneSock This is where I think concord needs a slightly different role in low sec. As I see it low sec isn't really as described. There is some security from sentry guns at gates etc. but actually no security at all at belts or in missions. I think "Low Security" is a fairly accurate description for people who are smart and have a decent understanding of the game. If they're not smart, and they don't understand the game, well, even HiSec isn't exactly "High Security". There are tweaks I would make to LoSec missions--somewhat better rewards, more forgiving timers and penalties, etc.-- as well as to LoSec generally. But I'd be very unhappy if the security there became more dependent on NPCs rather than the players themselves. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
William Darkk Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:01:00 - [136] Uh, question. As a noob who's only flown a couple lowsec missions, how do I protect myself from this sort of thing? So far I've just relied on completing the missions as fast as I possibly could. -------------------------------------------------- <3 my Drones
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:18:00 - [137] Originally by: William Darkk Uh, question. As a noob who's only flown a couple lowsec missions, how do I protect myself from this sort of thing? So far I've just relied on completing the missions as fast as I possibly could. The main things: - Pick your agents and systems wisely. Spend some time with the map looking at population, ship kills, pod kills, and NPC kills. Also look at pipes going in and out, and to hisec, hubs especially. - Get to know the locals. Always pay attention to local. - Use lower level agents than you might in hisec at first. - Create undock points and safespots. Safespots that are outside of celestial/directional scanner range (14.5au) are especially valuable. - Look at your map before accepting missions. If it requires jumps, fit for travel and carry your mission modules in your hold. Sometimes it can make sense to set up multiple depots with modules and even ships. - Get to know your directional scanner, especially scanning for probes. To do this, set for max range/360, uncheck "Use Overview Settings", and sort by "Name" on the results list. Probes will always appear under "Scanner Probe". - Learn about probing mechanics. This is too much to get into here, but here's a good place to start. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=431586 - Be careful about using drones. They can be an immense help, but they can also make it much easier to probe you out. - In general, Know Thy Enemy. Know Thy Friends too. In some systems there are local defence channels you can use, but always be a bit paranoid, and think in terms of what you would do if you were in the pirate's shoes, hunting yourself. And who knows, maybe you'll join the other side some time. - Accept that sometime you'll probably get careless and unlucky and lose your imaginary ship. Learn from it. And don't fly what you can't afford to lose. - If none of this sounds like much fun, stay out of losec. Good luck. :) * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:25:00 - [138] Originally by: William Darkk So far I've just relied on completing the missions as fast as I possibly could. Oh, and that's smart too. And be selective about looting and salvaging. Mission completion and LP rewards are much better in losec, loot and salvage are the same. Actually less valuable, because you'll usually have to haul them out of losec to cash in. Often still worth it, but keep the costs and benefits in mind. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:32:00 - [139] Originally by: Tegashi Killing mission runners is a pretty low and dirty practice. In many cases, the odds are so stacked against the mission runner that they don't have a chance. This doesn't qualify as 'PvP' in my view, only griefing since it's such a one-sided engagement. The WoW comment makes me chuckle. The same 'PvP' douchebag mentality strongly exists there too. PvPers = Douchebag. Amazing logic there, bud. I guess you think that EVE should institute a pvp flag or a dueling system restricting pvp to only those who "want" to PVP. Because uneven fights are "griefing." Indeed, we won't let alliances that are bigger than other organizations (be they other alliances or corps) war dec smaller entities. Also, we should restrict gate camps. You shouldn't be allowed to camp a gate unless you are alone. And if a giant 50 person anti-pie blob comes to try and kill me camping a gate by myself, they shouldn't be allowed to engage. Great idea where do I sign up for the suckiest MMO ever made. You know, the one you want to turn eve into? -Karl
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:36:00 - [140] Originally by: Princess Jodi I'd invite you to come to the Drone Regions and run missions there ... but we don't have Missions in the Drone Regions. Thanks again, CCP How many missions do alliances that don't live 0.0 with NPC sov get to run? Very, very, very few. In fact, I know a lot of people who clone jump back to empire to run missions. Guess what? They don't live in the drone regions. Well done, again, whiner. -Karl
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:38:00 - [141] Originally by: Tegashi Originally by: Modrak Vseth Originally by: Tegashi This doesn't qualify as 'PvP' in my view, only making ISK since it's such a one-sided engagement. Fixed that for ya. Sometimes attacking a rich mission runner is about more then the PvP. There is always someone looknig for the easy score rather then grinding missions or rats the hard way. Please. If you think piracy is an "easy score" you are incredibly dense. You should try making a living at it sometime. -Karl
Tegashi	Posted - 2007.11.08 20:07:00 - [142] Originally by: I SoStoned Originally by: Asestorian Tegashi: Whether attacking someone who doesn't want to be attack is low is completely irrelevant. Have you even realised that EVE is a game that has non-consensual PvP as one of it's core mechanics? NO, it is not. Not by a long stretch. CCP says it is, but they make it more and more 'not' than ever. Otherwise we would not have so damnably many 99% untouchable farmers glutting empire in NPC corps. If CCP would remove their immunity to war declarations this game would work correctly. Most often, a player who is performing a mission cannot fit his or her ship to withstand a PvP attack. Most missions require fairly specific fits in order to maximize chance of success and even then success is never for certain. 'PvP'ers' if they even deserve the title, who probe down mission runners realize and capitalize on this fact. A 'PvP'er' who engages a mission runner know full well that he has the extreme advantage just by virtue of how the game mechanics relative to both schools of thought are applied in the game. Therefore, the 'PvP' engagement becomes a Gank because the victim A) Cannot properly fit a mission ship to repel a gank in most cases and B) a mission runner must also contend with whatever NPC agro in addition to the aggression by however many gankers show up to destroy the ship that player has built. Mission runners in this case, have such a small chance of surviving the PvP gank because the odds are so far stacked against them due to the imposition of game mechanics etc. It isn't even close to a fair engagement, tactical challenge, or reasonable skirmish. It's shooting fish in barrels. I love real PvP as much as anyone, but I personally don't think it's right to sink so low as to kill 'easy' targets in this manner. That's just weak.
Tegashi	Posted - 2007.11.08 20:14:00 - [143] Edited by: Tegashi on 08/11/2007 20:14:00 Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Tegashi Killing mission runners is a pretty low and dirty practice. In many cases, the odds are so stacked against the mission runner that they don't have a chance. This doesn't qualify as 'PvP' in my view, only griefing since it's such a one-sided engagement. The WoW comment makes me chuckle. The same 'PvP' douchebag mentality strongly exists there too. PvPers = Douchebag. Amazing logic there, bud. I guess you think that EVE should institute a pvp flag or a dueling system restricting pvp to only those who "want" to PVP. Because uneven fights are "griefing." Indeed, we won't let alliances that are bigger than other organizations (be they other alliances or corps) war dec smaller entities. Also, we should restrict gate camps. You shouldn't be allowed to camp a gate unless you are alone. And if a giant 50 person anti-pie blob comes to try and kill me camping a gate by myself, they shouldn't be allowed to engage. Great idea where do I sign up for the suckiest MMO ever made. You know, the one you want to turn eve into? -Karl No. Not all PvP'ers are doucehbags. Don't try to twist my words because you know full well that is not what I meant. Not at all. PvP'er and Ganker share the same title but they are not one and the same. Personally, I prefer choosing targets that are difficult, can destroy me, and I can learn from the experience. I love the idea of defending corporation space from invaders or those wishing to take what my alliance has built. To me, this is PvP. What qualifies as douchebaggery in my opinion is the idea of running down mission runners because you know they most likely did not or could not fit their ship to properly deal with the gank. Those that suicide gank, or gamp gates just to shoot easy targets. THose that bait newbs with cans outside of stations, flip the ore of miners, or all the other underhanded things people try to do to coax an easy barge or frig kill. This is the kind of thing I speak of.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2007.11.08 20:23:00 - [144] GOD there's a lot of whining going on in here. It's nothing new either, just the same old regurgitated "PvPers are bad" BS. We need to be able to find mission runners because everyone needs some risk in this game. There's risk in the missions already, I hear you say. Well, I am running a lvl 4 mission as I write this. I don't even have to look at my screen. Lot of risk there. CCP has already made this game too damn easy. Any easier and we might as well all migrate to WoW, as that will be the 'hardcore' alternative. Learn to play and stop whining. If you think pirates have it easy, try living like one for a month. Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.11.08 20:32:00 - [145] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 08/11/2007 20:33:37 Originally by: Tegashi Most often, a player who is performing a mission cannot fit his or her ship to withstand a PvP attack. Most missions require fairly specific fits in order to maximize chance of success and even then success is never for certain. snip I love real PvP as much as anyone, but I personally don't think it's right to sink so low as to kill 'easy' targets in this manner. That's just weak. If you ever ran an Angel mission you would have to fit an omni tank anyway. For those Vipers, you need a web, so throw in a scrambler and hey presto...you are in pvp ship. The decision to nerf your ship based on the limited racial damage of npc's was your choice. Easy targets present themselves as just that....easy targets, that is their mistake. It doesn't matter if you are in a nano Hac or a raven, if you present yourself as an easy target, you will die. It is sooo easy to avoid being ganked in missions, if you don't do them afk I ran tons of level 4's in low sec trying to fix my sec status. I was blinky red, so I was hunted by both pirates and anti pirates. I didn't lose a ship to any mission or the probers. I have probed out many mission runners myself, and that is the best way to learn how to avoid getting ganked Here is some obvious advice (amazingly people don't take precautions in low sec) 1. When you land at your first gate, check the range to the nearest celestial. If it is above 5AU then you are pretty safe, and it will take a dedicated prober quite some time 2. After entering the stage via the accel gate, drop a can immediately This will decloak any recons trying to sneak up on you 3. Never stay within 24km of the warp in point 4. Align to a station (if there is one) Do not use a planet as your warp out...to easy to get followed, and your BS will warp slower than a tackler, and there are no guns to help you. 5. Check local, trust no one. If there is zero in the system, mission away. Any one of the others could be in a covert with positive sec. He is just warp in point, so won't look like pirate. 6. CHECK YOUR SCANNER!! Put it on max range, untick overview settings...sort by type, and scroll to scanner probes If you see "Quest probe" on scan scoop drones, warp out, dock up, and have a beer. The mission will still be there for you. No point losing a BS over a time bonus 7. CHECK THE SCANNER!!...cannot be said enough. Its very easy to do missions, so use your time to check on ships in the system, get familiar with traffic, and try to spot possible threats. Keep an eye out for non pve ships...like vagabond, curse, etc. They are NOT running missions 8. Be paranoid, and keep safe...you should not lose a ship in a mission if you are alert
Der Komissar	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:18:00 - [146] I agree 100% with the op. PvP should be 100% consensual. Make another server where pvpers and other grievers can go freely kill each other. Eve is about missions and mining, not killing everyone you see. Also ships should have full insurance for fittings lost and the guy who killed you should pay 10mil for every jump he makes in high-sec, as a bail for concord.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:27:00 - [147] Originally by: Mamba Lev No that would create a situation when running a mission your immune to PvPers. Are you thick? Oh and pirates don't get an opinion on this. Nice easy griefing for them though it is... Eve is a pvp game, "non-consensual" pvp is a defining feature. Nobody should ever be "immune to PvPers." Certainly not while grinding away otherwise low-risk, high yield isk.
Modrak Vseth Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:50:00 - [148] Originally by: Tegashi Most often, a player who is performing a mission cannot fit his or her ship to withstand a PvP attack. Most missions require fairly specific fits in order to maximize chance of success and even then success is never for certain. It's not "cannot fit", it's "choose not to fit". You can still run the missions in a PvP fit. It may be a bit more difficult, but not impossible. Originally by: Tegashi Mission runners in this case, have such a small chance of surviving the PvP gank because the odds are so far stacked against them due to the imposition of game mechanics etc. It isn't even close to a fair engagement, tactical challenge, or reasonable skirmish. It's shooting fish in barrels. More like shooting fish in a barrel that saw you coming from a mile away and had the chance to jump out of the barrel into a pond but decided not to. You ALWAYS have AT LEAST 30 seconds to warp out of your mission when someone else jumps into the system. If you're watching your scanner you WILL KNOW if they're looking for you.
Taedrin Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.11.08 22:00:00 - [149] If you don't like pirates killing low sec mission runners, then deny them their targets. Stop going to low sec. Low sec missions are only fractionally better than high sec missions.
William Darkk Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.08 22:03:00 - [150] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: William Darkk - Be careful about using drones. They can be an immense help, but they can also make it much easier to probe you out. DOH. I'm specced/fitted for drones, as I'm fond of pets in other mmos. -------------------------------------------------- <3 my Drones

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