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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:09:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Delphi Disra on 07/11/2007 22:11:07
Basically the hauling carrier is what every major alliance in eve relies upon to move fuel up. You didnt intend it to be a hauler, but other than the rorq and dread, nothing else is capable of fullfilling the job. I understand that this is why you have introduced the jump freighter. But the problem is #1 they are expensive as hell and #2 it will be months before their are enough jump freighters to keep alliances running. In that time alliances will have allot of trouble keeping POS's fueld etc.
My suggestion is hold off on the carrier cargo nerf untill their are suffiecient jump freighters in eve. Otherwise you will undboubtebly hurt many many alliances and make hars 0.0 life even harsher.
Also an easy fix to carriers:
Make is to that these are selectable through a menu when you right click on a carrier while docked in a station.
Mode 1: Fighting Carrier, Good tank, Exellent DPS, maybee even capability of more drones. It would sacrafice most of it's corperate cargo and ship maintenance bay for this and it's repping capability.
Mode 2: Logistics, instant lock time on freindlys, almost unjammable, bonuses to repping, good tank, and crap firepower (ie 5 drones max), and sacrafice to corp cargo and maint bay size.
Mode 3: Hauling, no DPS, good tank, large hauling capbaility, insane long lock times
This would be a quick and easy fix to the carriers...
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trulon
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:12:00 -
[2]
it will force alliances you shrink to control the space they can manage hense making eve bigger.
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Martin Mckenna
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:12:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Delphi Disra
Edited by: Delphi Disra on 07/11/2007 22:11:07
Basically the hauling carrier is what every major alliance in eve relies upon to move fuel up. You didnt intend it to be a hauler, but other than the rorq and dread, nothing else is capable of fullfilling the job.
One word - Freighter
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:18:00 -
[4]
One word,
Slow
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trulon
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:20:00 -
[5]
speed isnt the issue its how fuel should be moved about it will slow war machines down and force alliances to rebuilt there logistics base the way it should be.
carriers are fleet support not logistics
they have ships for them roles and carriers arnt them
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Jacob Castillo
Caldari
Copperhead Inc.
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: trulon
it will force alliances you shrink to control the space they can manage hense making eve bigger.
This is a very good thing.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
trulon
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:24:00 -
[7]
yeap
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:29:00 -
[8]
Lol.... you guys obviously dont know what kind of a chore POS's already are and the thought of bieng surrounded by thousands of small alliances would be stupid and ya...
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Asestorian
Domination.
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:31:00 -
[9]
It wouldn't surprise me if CCP were slowly trying to encourage the larger alliances to reduce their claim on space a bit. A balance dev responded in another thread about this as well though.
Basically, they were still discussing just how they were going to change carriers, but that as they are they are far too good at being an all-purpose hauler. However, they are going to become even better at hauling ships, so meh.
---
MOZO
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trulon
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:35:00 -
[10]
look at it like this
pos are not ment to be easy or anything like that there supposed to be a ball breaking logistical nightmare its like powering a small city.
the carrier nerf will make frieghters more useful and fit the role they are built for hauling stuff and yes im sorry of your alliance will be up poo creak.
but an alliance is suposed to have a logistical backbone not pos being fueled by carriers.
this nerf is like evaloution alliances that dont adapt will die or shrink
those who evolve will replace there logistical wings with logistical ships
i dont see the upcomming change a problem more like cutting the wheat from the chaff
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:35:00 -
[11]
How are they going to become even better?
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Asestorian
Domination.
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:43:00 -
[12]
Carriers are having their ship maintenance bays increased or something. I'm not sure of the exact mechanics though as I don't personally fly carriers.
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MOZO
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:57:00 -
[13]
ya but you cant put haulers inside it or so i'm told
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.11.07 22:57:00 -
[14]
soo with a hac i get the choice of two modes:
1: a SUPERDUPER killing hac which have TWICE the dps/tank/speed/etc.
or the supportable type:
1: which gets a huge cargo doing a haulers job, a fast alignment, a giant bonus to logistic modules etc..
uhh that sounds fair, why not just have one ship type and 52 different modes and then... sigh
... idiot....
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:02:00 -
[15]
The hack costs 1/30th of a well fitted carrier, and takes bout 1/10th the ammount of skills. You fail please try again.
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voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:14:00 -
[16]
In general I agree with your idea Delphi Disra split carrier into 2 to 3 ship types. But I think industery capitals and jump frighters should take the bulk jump hualing role.
As it is with triage mode you lose all your dps and have the fighters you delegate to squad mates just drop dead as well.
so all we really need is a fighter control mod that lets control wings of fighters and lose our ablity to remote rep as well, and while we have it running we can use the triage mod.
moon Material guide ª salvaging guide
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:27:00 -
[17]
well i don't necessarily agree with the changes note that the changes wont be coming out for a while. (at least i think that is what they said)
especially given the vagueness that is rev3
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Hozac
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:31:00 -
[18]
0.0 is supposed to be harsh
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hozac
0.0 is supposed to be harsh
harsh and boring to death are two very different things.
do you really want to fly a freighter through 0.0 just to fuel poses?
now this i suppose is a boost to established alliances because they already have their jump bridge networks in place.
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Vitrael
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:36:00 -
[20]
Most alliances don't need anyone at all in 3/4 of their space except for POS logistics carriers. This is stupid. Even jump freighters are stupid. The whole idea of 0.0 sovereignty is totally askew if an attacking party can't disrupt the logistics line.
The purpose of sieging a castle in real life is to force the enemies to surrender once they are out of munitions and food.
The purpose of sieging a POS in Eve is to destroy it, because cutting the logistics line is pretty much impossible with carriers around.
Personally I think Eve should mirror life in this respect and the carrier logistics cut will help achieve this.
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:43:00 -
[21]
No you are wrong, with jump bridge networks it will just make it easier for big alliances to swallow up small ones.... Oh well i kinda look forward to only a few large alliances in the game ;)
Never mind CCP, let big alliances swallow small ones :)
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Seeing EyeDog
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Delphi Disra
One word,
Slow
3 words:
Deal with it
_____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey
Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
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VanillaFace
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:44:00 -
[23]
Games are meant to be challenging.
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Major Stallion
Four Rings
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Vitrael
Most alliances don't need anyone at all in 3/4 of their space except for POS logistics carriers. This is stupid. Even jump freighters are stupid. The whole idea of 0.0 sovereignty is totally askew if an attacking party can't disrupt the logistics line.
The purpose of sieging a castle in real life is to force the enemies to surrender once they are out of munitions and food.
The purpose of sieging a POS in Eve is to destroy it, because cutting the logistics line is pretty much impossible with carriers around.
Personally I think Eve should mirror life in this respect and the carrier logistics cut will help achieve this.
ugh another "real life"-er....when are people going to stop comparing Eve to RL?!
________________________________
Originally by: CCP Nozh
As soon as people start comparing EVE to real life or battlestar galactica I stop reading.
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voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:48:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vitrael
Most alliances don't need anyone at all in 3/4 of their space except for POS logistics carriers. This is stupid. Even jump freighters are stupid. The whole idea of 0.0 sovereignty is totally askew if an attacking party can't disrupt the logistics line.
The purpose of sieging a castle in real life is to force the enemies to surrender once they are out of munitions and food.
The purpose of sieging a POS in Eve is to destroy it, because cutting the logistics line is pretty much impossible with carriers around.
Personally I think Eve should mirror life in this respect and the carrier logistics cut will help achieve this.
umm.. 
You can store over a years worth of fuel at pos if you want too. A pos if stock up right can't be staved out. Ammo for the weapons maybe but just use lasers.
Salvaging and Rigging guide
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Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:51:00 -
[26]
Actually the OP's request that the carrier cargo nerf be held off on until a fair number of jump freighters are around sounds quite good to me.
------------------------------
One more soldier off to war...
And one Velator in my hangars. |
Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2007.11.07 23:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: VanillaFace
Games are meant to be challenging.
Challenging yes, Boring no.
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Xilimyth Derlin
The Funkalistic
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:53:00 -
[28]
If the new Jump Frighters are going to take the mainstay of 0.0 logistics, they really should increase the jump range OR lower the fuel per jump. (Personally, I'm for the later).
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voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.07 23:54:00 -
[29]
Anther way to stop carriers/mothership be the solomoviables that people thing they are, is to not allow them to use webs or warp scrablers that would mean they would need tracklers ect. As it is most ship can simple fly a way from a solo carrier any way.
Salvaging and Rigging guide
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Hozac
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Posted - 2007.11.08 00:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
harsh and boring to death are two very different things.
do you really want to fly a freighter through 0.0 just to fuel poses?
I don't want to fly anything anywhere to fuel poses, thats why I did spam hundreds of poses across space. It was your choice to put up those poses, now its your problem to deal with them. Don't want to? Well then take them down. Don't go to the forums whining because you made alot of work for yourself and now you don't want to do it.
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.08 00:18:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Delphi Disra on 08/11/2007 00:21:38
If you think I'm wining because I'm not prepared you are dearly mistaken. This will hurt many, I wont be one of them. Personally I preferr a few large powerfull alliances over the uncohesive rabble that 0.0 is filled with.
Thank you CCP for killing all the small/inept alliances, and making it so that small ones or newbs wont be able to start small 0.0 alliances.
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voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.08 00:20:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Hozac
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
harsh and boring to death are two very different things.
do you really want to fly a freighter through 0.0 just to fuel poses?
I don't want to fly anything anywhere to fuel poses, thats why I did spam hundreds of poses across space. It was your choice to put up those poses, now its your problem to deal with them. Don't want to? Well then take them down. Don't go to the forums whining because you made alot of work for yourself and now you don't want to do it.
Just try running one pos in 0.0 and come back tell us what you think of the coming changes
Salvaging and Rigging guide
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:22:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Delphi Disra on 08/11/2007 00:23:26
He probly doesnt have enough isk to buy a caracal to pvp in... you think he can even afford a small pos? :)
+ he probobly cant even dream of flying a carrier...
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mechtech
Silver Snake Enterprise
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Posted - 2007.11.08 00:26:00 -
[34]
Adapt or die.
It might be a tough month or 2, but you'll get throught it with more effort thrown on logistics.
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voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.08 00:35:00 -
[35]
Originally by: mechtech
Adapt or die.
this is of course coming from some body who has never done logistics ?
the rorqual or the amarr dread will alliance to Adapt ect, then when jump frighters come out we will be back to where we started (well for the large alliances any way)
so in 3 months time will you be saying
unAdapt or live  
Salvaging and Rigging guide
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Seeing EyeDog
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Posted - 2007.11.08 00:35:00 -
[36]
Originally by: voidvim
Just try running one pos in 0.0 and come back tell us what you think of the coming changes
Um, so then drop POS's that you cant handle to fuel anymore. No one is going to laugh at you because you cant maintain a huge workload. If anything, this change will see sov drop in alot of systems. If that makes you anxious to know that enemies can move in next door to your space and attack you at will....maybe you should go play WoW?
_____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey
Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
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Bosie
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.11.08 00:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Delphi Disra
I have sand in my vagina
Please, make friends and work as a team to fuel that POS!
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word,
which means more to me than any other.
That word is ENGLAND |
voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:45:00 -
[38]
Edited by: voidvim on 08/11/2007 00:45:53
Originally by: Seeing EyeDog
Originally by: voidvim
Just try running one pos in 0.0 and come back tell us what you think of the coming changes
Um, so then drop POS's that you cant handle to fuel anymore. No one is going to laugh at you because you cant maintain a huge workload. If anything, this change will see sov drop in alot of systems. If that makes you anxious to know that enemies can move in next door to your space and attack you at will....maybe you should go play WoW?
ooohh WoW thats low 
it's just that the people who never do logistics the ones who are the one being the most vocal and I know member in their alliance who do logistics and feel just the same about the changes.
Salvaging and Rigging guide
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Bosie
Originally by: Delphi Disra
I have sand in my vagina
Please, make friends and work as a team to fuel that POS!
Refrain from posting a quote of somthing i never said, and how about you actually come out to 0.0 and see what it's like. I somehow dont know how somone that's not in an alliance nor lives in 0.0 can even have a legitimate opinion on this issue.
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Ruciza
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Posted - 2007.11.08 00:55:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Ruciza on 08/11/2007 00:56:08
Maybe they just want you to cringe in frustration, get nervous breakdowns and start to abandon POS. The argument that the current rate of pos spam will be held up no matter the workload is of course not to be taken seriously. Yet you hear it all the time. Learn to say no, even if your goddamn alliance goes down the drain.
On a lighter note, you do not know what this nerf exactly entails. You know nothing, and all you have is anxiety. Quite a way to play a game that's supposed to be fun by the way. The devs are talking about choosing the carrier role with modules or rigs. One of those roles may be that of a transport. No swiss army knife, but still a solution for logistics.
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:58:00 -
[41]
No i'm not complaining about that, they intend to make it so that a Iteron V with items inside it wont fit in a carrier. This makes it so that carriers will be incapable of hauling. This will kill many small alliances, since their will not be enough jump freighters to sustain them.
That is my arguement. Keep the carriers capable of hauling UNTIL their are sufficient jump freighters in the game.
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Bosie
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.11.08 01:16:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Delphi Disra
Originally by: Bosie
Originally by: Delphi Disra
I have sand in my vagina
Please, make friends and work as a team to fuel that POS!
Refrain from posting a quote of somthing i never said, and how about you actually come out to 0.0 and see what it's like. I somehow dont know how somone that's not in an alliance nor lives in 0.0 can even have a legitimate opinion on this issue.
Perhaps because I have been there seen it and got the t-shirt.
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word,
which means more to me than any other.
That word is ENGLAND |
Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
|
Posted - 2007.11.08 01:24:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Delphi Disra
No i'm not complaining about that, they intend to make it so that a Iteron V with items inside it wont fit in a carrier. This makes it so that carriers will be incapable of hauling. This will kill many small alliances, since their will not be enough jump freighters to sustain them.
That is my arguement. Keep the carriers capable of hauling UNTIL their are sufficient jump freighters in the game.
the recent skill req reduction, to racial freighter lvl4, i think is a good compromise that we have ALREADY gotten (its on SISI)
that being said, you are correct, there would be a delay before we start getting the ships themselves. I dont think its killer, you can still transport SOME fuel in the carrier, or cargo expanded dread, if you must.
I don't think its a killer for any properly orged 0.0 alliance tho. I just dont buy the sky is falling routine. I lived in 0.0 for well over a year when there where NO frieghters OR capitals. We had to run industrials up with fuel. WE had plenty of LARGE alliances claiming vast areas of space with big POS networks. Kids today  are just spoiled, and they try to make too few people maintain everything. I think there should be an obvious award to those that can org a good op, not a free pass so everyone can do it with a single alt.
just my 2 cents. I think there should be less POS in the game. This requires a game mechanic change as well, but a logistical bottleneck is not a surprising first step.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Maglorre
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Posted - 2007.11.08 01:30:00 -
[44]
Actually, I'm quite looking forward to seeing how this pans out. As it is, our alliance has quite a few high skilled players in carriers that do all the logistics work with their carriers and a handful of cyno alts. Then they turn around and throw it in our faces every now and then saying that nobody ever helps.
There are quite often many of the lower skilled members there asking if they can help and being told "no, we've got it covered". I can't fly a carrier, I can fly a freighter, the most I've been asked to do is empire hauls and then a final jump into low sec to where the carriers are.
I would love, instead, to get a reasonable sized gang to escort a few freighters into 0.0. A mixed gang of support ships and BS with maybe a few carriers on standby in case the **** hits the fan. This would maybe require that we bust a gate camp or 2, fight off an attack or maybe just the usual warp/jump/warp/jump with nothing happening.
IMO, that would be a LOT more fun than sitting around watching carriers jumping in and out of systems and would involve a lot more people in the logistics operations.
A few people have mentioned the use of jump bridges. Well, NEWS FLASH, they have nerfed them. It's my understanding that a freighter will not be able to use them any more. So there goes that argument.
That leaves the jump freighter (which will, admittedly, favour the more established and richer alliances) but it has a limited jump range and 1/4 the capacity of a normal freighter and the Rorqual, which also has a limited jump range.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.11.08 01:35:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Maglorre
Actually, I'm quite looking forward to seeing how this pans out. As it is, our alliance has quite a few high skilled players in carriers that do all the logistics work with their carriers and a handful of cyno alts. Then they turn around and throw it in our faces every now and then saying that nobody ever helps.
There are quite often many of the lower skilled members there asking if they can help and being told "no, we've got it covered". I can't fly a carrier, I can fly a freighter, the most I've been asked to do is empire hauls and then a final jump into low sec to where the carriers are.
I would love, instead, to get a reasonable sized gang to escort a few freighters into 0.0. A mixed gang of support ships and BS with maybe a few carriers on standby in case the **** hits the fan. This would maybe require that we bust a gate camp or 2, fight off an attack or maybe just the usual warp/jump/warp/jump with nothing happening.
IMO, that would be a LOT more fun than sitting around watching carriers jumping in and out of systems and would involve a lot more people in the logistics operations.
A few people have mentioned the use of jump bridges. Well, NEWS FLASH, they have nerfed them. It's my understanding that a freighter will not be able to use them any more. So there goes that argument.
That leaves the jump freighter (which will, admittedly, favour the more established and richer alliances) but it has a limited jump range and 1/4 the capacity of a normal freighter and the Rorqual, which also has a limited jump range.
dev posted said the frieghter change on SISI was a mistake, and that freighters would still be able to use jump bridges.
That being said, while a freighter op SOUNDS like fun (and looks like it on paper) they rarely are. The enemy will see you coming, gather, and strike, all primarying the freighter, who will die regardless of what you do. Its very frustrating, there is no game mechanic to truely escort and protect the freighter.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Delphi Disra
Gallente
An Eye For An Eye
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.08 01:46:00 -
[46]
maybee somthing should be introduced to help freighters and make freighter ops more viable?
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Maglorre
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Posted - 2007.11.08 01:50:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
dev posted said the frieghter change on SISI was a mistake, and that freighters would still be able to use jump bridges.
OK. Missed that bit, good and bad as we will have jump bridges soon 
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
That being said, while a freighter op SOUNDS like fun (and looks like it on paper) they rarely are. The enemy will see you coming, gather, and strike, all primarying the freighter, who will die regardless of what you do. Its very frustrating, there is no game mechanic to truely escort and protect the freighter.
Would take a pretty big gang to take out a freighter with logistics support from multiple logistics ships and then the carriers when they jump in. And if you are stupid enough to broadcast your intentions to your enemies with enough advance warning to let them get organised then you deserve to get ganked
It's not like in high sec where the attacker's gank squad can hide in local making scouts next to useless and where your support can't pre-emptively engage neutrals (or even engage post attack). Use forward and rear scouts, your freighters should not ever be engaged if you do it right.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.11.08 01:59:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Maglorre
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
dev posted said the frieghter change on SISI was a mistake, and that freighters would still be able to use jump bridges.
OK. Missed that bit, good and bad as we will have jump bridges soon
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
That being said, while a freighter op SOUNDS like fun (and looks like it on paper) they rarely are. The enemy will see you coming, gather, and strike, all primarying the freighter, who will die regardless of what you do. Its very frustrating, there is no game mechanic to truely escort and protect the freighter.
Would take a pretty big gang to take out a freighter with logistics support from multiple logistics ships and then the carriers when they jump in. And if you are stupid enough to broadcast your intentions to your enemies with enough advance warning to let them get organised then you deserve to get ganked
It's not like in high sec where the attacker's gank squad can hide in local making scouts next to useless and where your support can't pre-emptively engage neutrals (or even engage post attack). Use forward and rear scouts, your freighters should not ever be engaged if you do it right.
To a point. Problem is, no one today wants to:
1. get together enough people to do such a support op
2. Be in the support op
sadly enough....
Also, once the enemies have enough ships....the freighter is going to die. quickly...before teh carriers cyno in. and the logisitic ships may have to go first, true, but it wont matter. Which really is the problem, cause the outcome of the freighter escort op are invariably:
1. Enemy gets together the peps required, and wins by default
2. You get no action for the 2 hours of running up the map, warping at .7 au/sec across 192 au warps.
There is alot of work that needs to be done to make the logistical side the way it SHOULD be...and while the coming changes are a step in the right direction, they maybe the incorrect first step.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari
System-Lords
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.08 02:01:00 -
[49]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=620431
Check that out... It's the answer to all your prayers! 
Latest Video, Click Here!
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