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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.10 10:34:00 -
[1]
I have been thinking about upcoming changes and possibilitis to adabt to those changes in most effective way (where measure of effectivity is mission running speed).
For background story I have alt flying torpedo CNR in missions with my main (cruise missile CNR). As upcoming patch is changing torpedoes considerably I have 2 options open to me (leaving out options to change ships like using marauders or some other race ships altho should something else be more effective than my currently considered options I'm willing to change). Those 2 options I'm currently considering are
1) Switch to cruise missiles (engagement range 110 km, CN ammo) 7x CN Cruise 1x Auto targeter I 1x XL T2 booster 3x T2 hardener 1x H.Cap.Injector II 1x PWNAGE painter 4x CN BCU 1x Signal Amp II 3x CCC I rigs + 5 light/medium T2 drones and 5% proper hardwires.
2) Keep using torps (engagement range 70 km, T2 javelins) 7x Siege II 1x Auto Targeter I 1x CN XL booster 3x T2 hardener 1xDark Blood injector 1xPWNAGE painter 3x CN BCU 1xShadow CPU 1x Selyenne's RCU 1x T2 Hydr. bay thruster 1x T1 Hydr bay thruster 1x T1 Rocket Fuel cache + 5 light/medium T2 drones and 5% proper hardwires.
I'm kinda hanging between those 2 options as both have their advantages. Torpedoes will have really nice RoF after change hits TQ. and if they can still one volley BC's and kill battleships in 3 - 4 volleys they would be even more uber than they currently are for missions. On the other hard their signature is increasing also considerably and I'm not quite sure if 1 painter will cut it (even if I will be using only javelins). That posted 'new' CNR torp fit needs also somewhat bigger investment than switching to cruise missiles (altho it's possible to save a bit by skipping T2 rig). That particular officer RCU is not very expencive also (around 250 mil) but one needs to have AWU 5 (needed anyway for marauders) to make it all fit.
So question I'm looking answer for (in the form of pre patch speculations) is whitch one of those setups would be able to apply more actual dps ine NPC's in lev 4 missions.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.10 14:56:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Akita T
AFAIK, missile flight speed is not stacking-nerfed... so, 3x HBT rigs.
Good to know. In that case it's indeed better to just use 3 missile speed rigs.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.11 17:31:00 -
[3]
Apparently both missile speed and missile flight time hardwires are both slot 7 (unless I'm missing something, ZMC1000 and ZML1000) so theoretical max range drops 5% as I will be able to use only one of those. With max skills it should still reach up to max 70 km tho with javelins.
For topedo setup optimal hardwires would be slot 6: 5% damage for torps slot 7: 5% missile speed slot 8: - slot 9: 5% missile explocion velocity slot10: 5% missile RoF
Feel free to point out any hardwires I might have missed for 'optimal' solution. Should I go cruise afterall hardwires would be the same (just 5% cruise damage instead torpedo one) plus 5% missile signature one in slot 8.
In current iteration in SiSi Javelins look a bit more promising for mission running than switching to cruise (signature 350 m is not too bad, especially as I'm able to use 1 painter with good skills also). Considering that my main character would keep using cruise and consentrating on smaller targets (also with 1 target painter).
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.12 06:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Qui Shon So did you test it?
The guy in the other thread reported hitting npc's at 38-39km, when theoretical range should have been 44-46km.
Not yet. My alt lacks AWU 5 and my main Torps 5. Altho I'm planning to when I get a bit more time (by making some additional compromises when fitting it to squeeze it all in under AWU 5).
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.12 09:08:00 -
[5]
Made myself a bit time to run one mission in SiSi with new torps. Initial results suck to put it gently. Altho some of that 'suck' can be blamed on crappy fittings I had to use due to lack of some needed skills on my alt (below optimal missile rigging skill and lack of AWU 5)
Mission used in testing was Recon 1 of 3. Results were HAC - 4 to 8 volleys (javelins + painter), 4 - 6 volleys (navy + painter) BS - 7 to 9 volleys (javelins + painter), 6 volleys (navy + painter), 5 volleys (rage + painter) Elite frigate - 3 to 4 volleys (javelins + painter), 4 volleys (navy + painter) BC - 2 volleys (javelins + painter)
Battleships were 900k to 1.2 mil guristas. Used 3 T1 missile flight speed rigs. Theoretical range with javelins were 58.8 km (missile range skills 4, BS 5), as battleships orbited at 32 km it was possible to reach them even with rage torps altho some HAC's were keen at keeping 45 km orbit. 'Compromise' in low slots to make it all fit was using only one CN BCU (+ 2x CPU, 2x RCU). Alt used also 5% missile RoF and speed hardwires (no damage hardwire).
I can currently (in TQ) kill battleships in 3 to 4 volleys (even those 1.2 mil ones in missions) and one volley battlecruisers (with 3x BCU's and navy ammo). I will save final judgement until I'm able to properly test new torps against cruise missiles tho, but my initial impression is that torps might not be worth the hassle afterall.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.12 20:53:00 -
[6]
I'm not entirely 'written off' torps just jet. Those thigs I was shooting were pith usurpers mostly (highest bounty mission version of battleship), so they tank somewhat harder than 'regular' mission opponents and I had only 1 BCU on. In general missions are quite sensitive to small changes in actual damage levels.
Before writing off torps entirely I will try also to run small sample (more than one) of missions with proper damage potential (3x BCU and perhaps even hardwire if I can get my claws on one in SiSi). Will need just to use my main to remote shield boost my alt if I throw out the tank to mount proper gank with sub par skills.
Theoretically Siege Raven would end with approx 5% better dps with new torps by switching from current faction torps to new javelins and approx 60 .. 65 km 'effective' range (t1 rigs, max skills and leaving small playroom to take into acount that your targets are also moving). Part where I'm concerned is however if it's going to be actually faster in missions (as your damage is not dps but discreet in bursts then having to do 'one more' burst can somewhat negate 'on paper' better dps).
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.13 09:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Murasaki Midori what about the cost effectiveness? aren't javs likw three times the prices of regular torps?
They are approx 3x cheaper than ammo I'm currently using. I'm currently 'breaking even' using faction ammo (meaning that profits I earn from doing mission faster go into getting that ammo to make them faster so I earn approx the same I would when I would use T1 ammo, but are doing missions somewhat faster overall).
Would I get same effectivity with T2 ammo it sure would be cost effective for me, altho if it's cost effective in general is somewhat personal depending on your skills and setup.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.14 08:41:00 -
[8]
Managed to do second test run at last. Only one mission tho as after latest SiSi patch I'm somewhat bugged (crashing with session changes, like jumping thru gates and so on, bugreport already filed about it).
It was against blood raiders, 'smuggler interception' with a lot of cruisers and fair share of battleships. Blood raider battleships tank approx as good as regular gurista ones (using proper damagetypes) so it should give reasonable impression about 'average' mission effectivity with new torps.
Results (3x CN BCU, javelin ammo + 1x painter with good skills): BC - 2 (average for 2 BC's) Cruiser - 2.11 (average for 27 cruisers, 1 to 4 volleys) Frigate - 1.33 (average for 6 frigates, 1 to 2 volleys) BS* - 4.45 (average for 11 BS, 3 to 6 volleys)
* average would be somewhat lower as there was 4 BS's that would have been killed with 4 volleys if I would have had also damage hardwire but currently were killed by 5th volley with a bit hull left after 4th.
Range: Theoretical max range was 58.8 km while in practice torps started to do damage at approx 52 km. So with new torps practical max range is approx 90% of theoretical. It's just rough impression tho not hard fact as I'm quite sure it depends on a lot of factors I did not poke.
Conclusions for me: Well, range is more or less ok. A bit on the uncomfortably short side but it's possible to do some missions with that range without running out of targets and having to wait for your opponents to slowboat into range (with some exceptions ofc, like worlds collide and vegenance). Damage potential is good, altho not as good as on paper if you just look at dps number. 'New' RoF number is approx 5.25 sec vs 'old' RoF number of approx 6.8 sec ('new' is T2, 'old' CN). Overall 'new' torps will be marginally faster in missions than old torps ('new' javelins vs 'old' CN torps) by breaking more or less even with old torps against smaller targets (who are usually killed by drones anyway) and by being slightly faster against 'big' targets with exception of BC's who will need 2 volleys to kill with javelins vs 1 volley of 'old' torps. In practice with max skills I would expect javelin effective range to be around 60 ... 63 km.
Note however that I have not compared 'new' torps against cruise missile setups altho by first impression 'new' torps should be considerably faster within their engagement range by their greater RoF and slightly better damage per missile. They will be ineffective in some missions tho where some targets will start 90+ km away from you.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.14 14:23:00 -
[9]
Cruise missiles
Got same mission 'Smuggler interception' against blood raiders in TQ and tested it with my main character with cruise missiles. It was not entirely 'fair' comparison as my main has 5% damage hardwire (what my alt in SiSi was lacking), but other than that setup was same as posted above (meaning 4x BCU cruise vs 3x BCU torps).
Skipping the numbers only noticeable difference was that some battleships took 1 more volley above those numbers presented above. Burst damage (per volley) was only approx 5 ..6 % lower than new javelin torps. RoF is 6.23 sec (vs approx 5.25 .. 5.5 with new T2 siege launchers) so on paper dps difference is noticeable in favor of torpedoes. Also I'm using a bit more expencive ammo than my alt was using (CN ammo vs T2 ammo on alt).
Overall new torps are ok for missions with good skills but cruise are more 'universal' and not far behind torpedoes in mission effectivity. Actual speed difference in missions where NPC's are all closer than 60 km would end up somewhere around 15% in favor of torps witch is noticeable but on the other hand long range missions would take considerably longer with only torpedo ship.
And feel free to comment, I'm doing good job convincing myself, but perhaps I'm missing something in here ...
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.15 14:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lord Jovial So what mish should I look out for that torp's will come up short?
Vegenance Worlds Collide Silence the informant Unauthorized Military Presence The Score Massive attack
From the top of my head. Quite likely I have missed some. Most of them have NPC pockets starting at 70 to 120 km away from you in some stages and then you will have to either travel into range or wait for them to get into range themselves.
Originally by: d026
also the dps difference between javelin torps and fury cruisemissiles is marginal but fury cms have like 20k better range..
Hm. You have point there indeed. I did not consider T2 missiles at all when I was pondering about effectivity. Mainly bcos I'm using navy launchers with navy ammo (navy ammo is approx as effective as tech 2 just without drawbacks but considerably more expencive), but it is actually possible that T2 cruise setup might be more effective in some missions than 'new' torps.
I have been keeping an eye on typical mission engagement ranges lately and as mentioned above I'm finding approx 60 km range on new torps to be somewhat uncomfortably short. New RoF is very attractive, but having bunch of rats at 90 km from you could mean very noticeable additional timesink.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.20 06:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: MrRookie
I had the 5% missile speed implant and the 5% missile flight time implant. 2x missile speed rigs and 1x missile flight time rig all T1 rigs. The speed and flight time rigs are stacking nerfed btw so bether stick with 2 speed and 1 flight time.
That rises question for me as perhaps I have missed something relevant.
Originally by: Carniflex Apparently both missile speed and missile flight time hardwires are both slot 7 (unless I'm missing something, ZMC1000 and ZML1000) so theoretical max range drops 5% as I will be able to use only one of those. With max skills it should still reach up to max 70 km tho with javelins.
Have they changed one of those hardwires into different slot or is there some other 'new' (or something I have managed so far miss all the time) hardwire that occupies some other slot. I must admit I have not got any time lately to visit SiSi over past half a week or so.
Range of 60km seems quite good altho not quite sufficent for solo mission running in all missions. But then again it's always possible to fit cruise for those missions where you know that rats are at 90+ km from you and use torps for those missions where that is sufficent to engage NPC's without running out of targets (granted refitting is hassle, but it's needed anyway with cheaper tank's). It should be also quite sufficent if running missions with 2 ships as sitting idle with one ship while another spanks few far away targets is not as bad as slowboating around trying to reach range and then have to travel back to gate later.
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