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The Golem (Tech2 Version Raven) disadvantage in missions & pvp!

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Amior Amarr Pringles Inc. STYX.	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:36:00 - [1] Most of you been thinking that the Golem is so uber and it needs to be nerfed. That is total 100% wrong! My reasons why and the things you forgot to think about: NPC Ships most have defenders missiles which takes down from the range of 2-3 missiles per volley you make. This means if a NPC battleship fires 2 to 3 defenders it will cut down your damage by 50% to even 75%. This can also be involved if those who are going against a Golem. They will all know to bring 2-3 missile defender slots. Leavening the Golem to do any 25-50% vs having 100% in damage in the first place! But yea, the Golem can tank which is a nice thing... but in the end you know how to cut down the damage from the Golem itself. Cheers! Once you pop, you can't stop! - Pringles I R PIEWATE! Yarh haha! I eat noobs for breakfast
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:23:00 - [2] Originally by: Amior Most of you been thinking that the Golem is so uber and it needs to be nerfed. That is total 100% wrong! My reasons why and the things you forgot to think about: NPC Ships most have defenders missiles which takes down from the range of 2-3 missiles per volley you make. This means if a NPC battleship fires 2 to 3 defenders it will cut down your damage by 50% to even 75%. This can also be involved if those who are going against a Golem. They will all know to bring 2-3 missile defender slots. Leavening the Golem to do any 25-50% vs having 100% in damage in the first place! But yea, the Golem can tank which is a nice thing... but in the end you know how to cut down the damage from the Golem itself. Cheers! Someone else tried a rough and ready SiSi test and concluded the npc's have a fixed chance of firing a defender per missile fired at them. So, 4 missiles or 8, matters not. Same chance per missile to get shot down. Haven't tested this myself, just passing along a rumour. Further, if you're using torps (as I would think you should be in pvp+using the tp bonus), you'll be fighting 'close range' (I think the max possible range is 45km's?, much less in practice, I'd guess) and so the defenders will have less time to hit a torp. Torps don't get shot down by a single defender, afaik. More like 3 (don't flame me if I'm wrong, I don't use missiles often). Anyways, nowhere near as bleak as you might initially think. __________________________________________________ Originally by: Rells This place is sewer. Full of people that use internet anonymity to do things that would earn them two knocked out teeth in real life.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:34:00 - [3] The DEVS have stated its chance based, as do all the 3rd party NPC stats lol. --------------------------------- Thorax type R&R. (Ribbed and R rated)
JesterWiLD Caldari Greenspring Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:12:00 - [4] Originally by: Amior Most of you been thinking that the Golem is so uber and it needs to be nerfed. That is total 100% wrong! My reasons why and the things you forgot to think about: NPC Ships most have defenders missiles which takes down from the range of 2-3 missiles per volley you make. This means if a NPC battleship fires 2 to 3 defenders it will cut down your damage by 50% to even 75%. This can also be involved if those who are going against a Golem. They will all know to bring 2-3 missile defender slots. Leavening the Golem to do any 25-50% vs having 100% in damage in the first place! But yea, the Golem can tank which is a nice thing... but in the end you know how to cut down the damage from the Golem itself. Cheers! also your wrong, unless 1 defender missile kills 1 torp. As far as I know this isnt the way it works. In the past it took 2 defender missiles to kill a torp, and only 1 defender for a cruise missile or smaller. therefore, 2-3 defenders can equall 0%-25% damage reduction. and seeing as how only 2mill plus npcs take more than 35dps to break the 600 lowest dps of a golem will be fine. though ur right, the golem doesnt need to be nerfd :)
Riley Craven Caldari Sunshine Carebear Crew	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:40:00 - [5] Originally by: JesterWiLD Originally by: Amior Most of you been thinking that the Golem is so uber and it needs to be nerfed. That is total 100% wrong! My reasons why and the things you forgot to think about: NPC Ships most have defenders missiles which takes down from the range of 2-3 missiles per volley you make. This means if a NPC battleship fires 2 to 3 defenders it will cut down your damage by 50% to even 75%. This can also be involved if those who are going against a Golem. They will all know to bring 2-3 missile defender slots. Leavening the Golem to do any 25-50% vs having 100% in damage in the first place! But yea, the Golem can tank which is a nice thing... but in the end you know how to cut down the damage from the Golem itself. Cheers! also your wrong, unless 1 defender missile kills 1 torp. As far as I know this isnt the way it works. In the past it took 2 defender missiles to kill a torp, and only 1 defender for a cruise missile or smaller. therefore, 2-3 defenders can equall 0%-25% damage reduction. and seeing as how only 2mill plus npcs take more than 35dps to break the 600 lowest dps of a golem will be fine. though ur right, the golem doesnt need to be nerfd :) It depends on the NPCs. I have seen some NPCs using defenders one shot torps. They sucked to kill. The problem with PVE is that there are so many stupid concessions made for them that you cant figure out what the hell is going on. If CCP would just wise up and take all that crap off and fit them out like regular player ships with disabled guns and tank mods +-depending on their bounties, the world would be a lot better.
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:48:00 - [6] Well with the raven, a fired defender would cause you to lose 1/6th or your firepower for that volley, or allow you only 83% of your potential output. With the golem, that same defender will cause you to lose 1/4th of your firepower for that volley, or allow you only 75% of your potential output. So the question is. How much more powerful is the Golem to begin with over the raven? If it only has 10% more firepower, then it is only marginally better than the raven and of course valued at between 4-8 times the raven's cost.
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.13 06:09:00 - [7] Originally by: JesterWiLD Originally by: Amior Most of you been thinking that the Golem is so uber and it needs to be nerfed. That is total 100% wrong! My reasons why and the things you forgot to think about: NPC Ships most have defenders missiles which takes down from the range of 2-3 missiles per volley you make. This means if a NPC battleship fires 2 to 3 defenders it will cut down your damage by 50% to even 75%. This can also be involved if those who are going against a Golem. They will all know to bring 2-3 missile defender slots. Leavening the Golem to do any 25-50% vs having 100% in damage in the first place! But yea, the Golem can tank which is a nice thing... but in the end you know how to cut down the damage from the Golem itself. Cheers! also your wrong, unless 1 defender missile kills 1 torp. As far as I know this isnt the way it works. In the past it took 2 defender missiles to kill a torp, and only 1 defender for a cruise missile or smaller. therefore, 2-3 defenders can equall 0%-25% damage reduction. and seeing as how only 2mill plus npcs take more than 35dps to break the 600 lowest dps of a golem will be fine. though ur right, the golem doesnt need to be nerfd :) Well you are both right. However torps is getting a "boost" and will from Rev 3 onwards be quite useless in PVE. So all ratters and mission runners have to start using cruise missiles (who can be shot down by 1 defender as you correctly described).
Nolan Dempsey Mining Bytes Inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.11.13 07:59:00 - [8] How exactly are torpedoes going to be useless in PvE? I can see them being useless in level four missions due to the mix of ship types and need to keep range, but for chaining belts I don't see how it's going to be anything but a massive boost.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.11.13 09:00:00 - [9] Originally by: Nolan Dempsey How exactly are torpedoes going to be useless in PvE? I can see them being useless in level four missions due to the mix of ship types and need to keep range, but for chaining belts I don't see how it's going to be anything but a massive boost. I think the GOLEM is a big fail....... 1st. Without damage or rof bonus the dps is worst than the CNR 2nd. The TP bonus is useless in PVE because noone would use Torps 3rd. Missile explosion veloc in PVE is useless If i mean PVE i mean missions. Because i dont see any reason to use for ratting. Any BS or better BC can easy handle beltrats and not a big loose if u ganked. I see no reason to use there a billion ship which only advantage is the ammo usage(and if u see this as problem, use amarr or drones). So the only usage in PVE would be in missions, where a good amount of NPC's orbiting outer 30km so the torps are useless, and so the TP and explo veloc are useless too. if u want to make the ship useful, give the +5% rof on the place of explo veloc and maybe the same webbonus as other on the place of TP.
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.13 10:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Nolan Dempsey How exactly are torpedoes going to be useless in PvE? I can see them being useless in level four missions due to the mix of ship types and need to keep range, but for chaining belts I don't see how it's going to be anything but a massive boost. Because around 75% of all spawns appear around 60 km from belt beacon. I have in my days ratted sanshas, guristas, angels and drones. Of these only angels are close range, and they aren't very good at it, several of their bs types often spawn close but mwd away from you while shooting, so in the end they are shooting you with AC from over 50km (missing horribly of course). Guristas bs likes to fight around 40-55 km, drones likes a 60km range (they have close range versions too but they seldom approach, instead they lock you then fly around in a random pattern until they die having not fired a single shot at you). I cant really recall how close sanshas liked to be because I was much younger when I was in Stain and used 130km bookmarks and cruise so I wouldn't get shot (as my tanking skills where not really top notch). But I'm fairly confident they use a long range too, since they use beams and cruise, not pulse and torp. Anyway, all that wall of text was useless anyway, because the ones that use defenders, guristas, are also the longest range pirate faction. So you will be forced to use cruise to rat guristas in a golem, and your cruise will be shot down. Very easy.
Holy Cheater Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.13 11:26:00 - [11] With guristas NPC and marauder's sensor strength you'll be almost permanently jammed... That's the bigger problem. Also cruise missiles has 1,5 times less dps/volley (with the same amount of ammo loaded), which is making torp-range nerf a big trouble. BTW, did devs change the amount of torps loaded into a siege launcher?
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:15:00 - [12] the marauders are a joke of a t2 ship, useless... a tank that is only slightly better then the T1 and a dps, that is only just sligtly better in calculation but in reality is worse. sigh
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:25:00 - [13] The Golem does need a damge boost if it's supposed to use cruises, or a range boost if it's supposed to use torps. The Vargur lack PG to fit artilleries, but CCP stated they didn't want to give it the PG for it, or it would become an AC/neut pvp pwnmobile. The Paladin and Kronos look very promising. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:28:00 - [14] golem owns in pvp:)
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.13 13:22:00 - [15] Yeah, its great.... PVP ruined the ship for us. It appears they will not make it an upgrade in missions because if someone can fit torpedos and a MWD apparently they can "WTFPWN" or something like that. Too bad in missions you can use neither MWDs nor torpedoes. State of the Golem Oct 25, 2007
Vardemis Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.11.13 13:28:00 - [16] With the CNR we have the best mission running ship anyway, an upgrade from that one would have been hilarious anyway. I think the Golem is fine as it is.
Amior Amarr Pringles Inc. STYX.	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:24:00 - [17] I was thinking instead the boost in damage per gun they should allow those battleships to use XL guns/missiles and bring in Citadel Cruise Missiles. Its the only way I see PVE would be worth it for lvl 4 + 5 missions for the golem to actually hit some damage. AKA would become a Mini Dreadnought... Once you pop, you can't stop! - Pringles I R PIEWATE! Yarh haha! I eat noobs for breakfast
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:59:00 - [18] Bloody !@^%!&!@$ hell ! What's this, invasion of clues newbs that don't read forums and only go on SiSi months after ships appeared part five ?!? From a practical standpoint, the Golem will usualy be almost identical in damage output to the T1 Raven, but fall short of the CNR... but only use roughly half the ammo. That includes NPC defenders effect and so on and so forth. It has a better tank, a better cap recharge, an extra mid (but one less low), a bonus to painters and to explosion velocity (most useful for torps, but somewhat useful for cruise too)... basically, unless jammed to hell (because it's easy to), it will get better overall DPS in PvP as a Raven. Now, yes, it WILL suck in missions compared to a CNR. The reason is that the T1 Raven can already tank (at good skills) pretty much any mission with a T2-only fit... so all that matters is damage output, of which the CNR just has more. The Golem's painter/expvelo bonuses are hardly of any use in missions (torps will lack the needed range, therefore you'll be using cruises... so painters are amost useless, and cruises already have a high enough explosion velocity to not get a damage reduction against mission NPCs) and therefore miserably fails as a mission-boat. As a PvP boat, while better overall as the Raven, it still sucks, if only for the low sensor strength (and ignoring any other shortcomings). But who knows, maybe you'll get lucky and NOT come across any Caldari newly buffed ECM boats (and the new, deadly ECM frigate). So, anyway, the Golem DOES suck in missions (compared to the CNR), but whatever the OP said about it has nothing to do with why. _ New character creation guide \| [CNVTF] corp recruiting \| Stacknerfs explained
iudex Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.13 17:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Akita T From a practical standpoint, the Golem will usualy be almost identical in damage output to the T1 Raven Hi Akita T, you're right this topic has been discussed many times in many threads. As far as i remember people always said the damageoutput of a raven is equal to that of a golem as 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus = 4 launcher with 100% dmg bonus, nothing new. But now imagine the situation of a pvp raven after the torp changes. Some will get the idea to create a pure gank raven with as much dps as possible. They will prolly fit 6 siege launchers and then see that extra 2 highslots and fit them with turrets, as the raven has 4 turret highslots, compared to the golem which has no turret highslots. 2 blasters together with that 6 torp launchers would fit well into the combat range (as it's specialized on close combat anyways after update) and clearly outdamage a gollum. Sure it's way hard to fit, you'd prolly need one or more reactor control units instead of a pdu and maybe one or more power grid bonus rigs, but it should be doable (didnt try it yet due lack of gunnery skills, but caldaris are told to train for hybrid weapons, so not only a few should have the skills for that). My skills
Nolan Dempsey Mining Bytes Inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.11.13 22:23:00 - [20] Originally by: Draahk Chimera Originally by: Nolan Dempsey How exactly are torpedoes going to be useless in PvE? I can see them being useless in level four missions due to the mix of ship types and need to keep range, but for chaining belts I don't see how it's going to be anything but a massive boost. Because around 75% of all spawns appear around 60 km from belt beacon. I have in my days ratted sanshas, guristas, angels and drones. Of these only angels are close range, and they aren't very good at it, several of their bs types often spawn close but mwd away from you while shooting, so in the end they are shooting you with AC from over 50km (missing horribly of course). Guristas bs likes to fight around 40-55 km, drones likes a 60km range (they have close range versions too but they seldom approach, instead they lock you then fly around in a random pattern until they die having not fired a single shot at you). I cant really recall how close sanshas liked to be because I was much younger when I was in Stain and used 130km bookmarks and cruise so I wouldn't get shot (as my tanking skills where not really top notch). But I'm fairly confident they use a long range too, since they use beams and cruise, not pulse and torp. Anyway, all that wall of text was useless anyway, because the ones that use defenders, guristas, are also the longest range pirate faction. So you will be forced to use cruise to rat guristas in a golem, and your cruise will be shot down. Very easy. Okay, I see your point. I'm used to Blood Raiders who are almost always with in 20-30k of me.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.14 01:07:00 - [21] Originally by: iudex Originally by: Akita T From a practical standpoint, the Golem will usualy be almost identical in damage output to the T1 Raven Hi Akita T, you're right this topic has been discussed many times in many threads. As far as i remember people always said the damageoutput of a raven is equal to that of a golem as 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus = 4 launcher with 100% dmg bonus, nothing new. But now imagine the situation of a pvp raven after the torp changes. Some will get the idea to create a pure gank raven with as much dps as possible. They will prolly fit 6 siege launchers and then see that extra 2 highslots and fit them with turrets, as the raven has 4 turret highslots, compared to the golem which has no turret highslots. 2 blasters together with that 6 torp launchers would fit well into the combat range (as it's specialized on close combat anyways after update) and clearly outdamage a gollum. Sure it's way hard to fit, you'd prolly need one or more reactor control units instead of a pdu and maybe one or more power grid bonus rigs, but it should be doable (didnt try it yet due lack of gunnery skills, but caldaris are told to train for hybrid weapons, so not only a few should have the skills for that). you are completely right.. i mnage to fit some heavy ion blasters on my raven with 6 x sieges. anyway i tested teh golem quite extensively on sis. its a killer machine. the tanking and tp bonus helps alot in pvp. not so mention you can field like 30-35 cap 800's. nothing will kill you solo except another marauder or heavy neut boat or well a scorp with scram perhaps:)
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:22:00 - [22] Defender missiles have a fixed chance to be shot against a missile fired. This means that 8 or 4 missiles, you will get, say, 30% chance for them to be shot down. Golem or raven, the effect is the same. Less missiles fired means less defenders fired against them That said I have not seen a torp shot down by defenders, but I could be wrong - I have stopped seeing defenders since I quit missioning. It takes two defenders to shoot down a torp, and I have not yet seen an npc shoot 2 defenders against a single torp. Which is why cruise missiles sucked so bad for missions, cause torp dps always delivered while pretty much half my cruises were shot down by the strongest opponents. The Raven (and golem) will now be a lot more challenged in pve because of the torp change - which is a step in the right direction IMO, considering they will also be a lot better for pvp. But yes, the golem deserves no nerf, it seems to be pretty close to as good as it should be. A little better or a little worse I don't know, but close... Still awaiting the Caldari Gunboat Fix (tm)... -----sig----- Originally by: Kaemonn:Signature Originally by: kieron: off duty You dont have to swallow! Win...
Dragon Lord Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.14 23:59:00 - [23] Well im finding it hard to find a niche for the golem For missions CNR is better For pvp its very nice but do u realy want to pvp in a ship that costs over a billion isk and isnt a cap ship? Looting, ok thats a niche i guess, it will be the best at it by far, but i kinda hoped a t2 bs would be a little more than a glorified salvage ship. I suppose a small gang of golems could easily run any lv5 or high end plex, but again there all in low or null sec which for a billion isk bs isnt a good place to be unless ur super rich like entity.

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