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Spacetrooper Kili
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Posted - 2007.11.14 10:00:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Spacetrooper Kili on 14/11/2007 10:01:11 Edited by: Spacetrooper Kili on 14/11/2007 10:00:57
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili polycarbons are fine, not my fault you cant afford t2 polys on your ships.
Again the 'it makes my ships uber so they are fine'...
Saying this just shows you know it's overpowered!
keep flying your uber gallente ships and crying to nerf everything different.
Everything else? I bougth polys and used them on inties and deimos... It just makes insane efficiency for something that is not faction/deadspace/officer stuff, for something of this price.
so whats so uber about fast ships? I see a huginn/rapier i run. I get damped, i run. I get jammed, i run. They kill my drones, i run. I see alot of tacklers, i run. Medium guns have no problems hitting me, i run. I get neutrad, i run. Etc...
Fast ships are useful only for killing lone npc isk farmers. But i guess thats what you are if you are so ****ed about polycarbons.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.14 11:04:00 -
[32]
POlycarbons are OK! Wha tneed to be changed are MWD!!
MWD are the only broken thing on speed fitting and are the sole reason why speed tank wehn doen must be done so extremely focused. Everyone uses MWD that is WR%ONG!!!
MWD must have their MAss penalty QUADRUPLED! and their thrust adjusted . So that they are used only for straight line acceleration to close into enemy, not for speed tanking.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Zirator
Times of Ancar Pure.
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Posted - 2007.11.14 11:32:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon POlycarbons are OK! Wha tneed to be changed are MWD!!
MWD are the only broken thing on speed fitting and are the sole reason why speed tank wehn doen must be done so extremely focused. Everyone uses MWD that is WR%ONG!!!
MWD must have their MAss penalty QUADRUPLED! and their thrust adjusted . So that they are used only for straight line acceleration to close into enemy, not for speed tanking.
I don't know if you ever flew in a straight line towards your enemy but I can say that I did and I didn't like the outcome. People die fast vs turrets ships when transversal = 0.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:03:00 -
[34]
If you want velocity = velocity rig if you want agility = agility rig If you want velocity/agility = polycarbon but you get less bonus to both, imo it should be like half it's now. At maximum.
Just imo :/
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Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:16:00 -
[35]
Excellent first post. A++. Perfect analysis of how wrong Polycarbon stats are. |
Andreya
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:27:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon POlycarbons are OK! Wha tneed to be changed are MWD!!
MWD are the only broken thing on speed fitting and are the sole reason why speed tank wehn doen must be done so extremely focused. Everyone uses MWD that is WR%ONG!!!
MWD must have their MAss penalty QUADRUPLED! and their thrust adjusted . So that they are used only for straight line acceleration to close into enemy, not for speed tanking.
dude the only ship who can deal damage WHILE speed tanking are a crow, a ishtar, and a sacriledge... thats IT...... ishtars and sacs arent supposed to 'speed' anything.... so dont gimme no bull bout speed 'tanking' _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
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Jade190
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:33:00 -
[37]
I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO YOUR PROBLEM:
You all play eve way too much and are obviously in love with it because you have nothing else to love in your lives.... I suggest you all go get girlfriends (or boyfriends fro you females ;D ).
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:36:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili
Originally by: quotewars ...
so whats so uber about fast ships?
One thing that stopped nano gangs I've been in is bigger nano gangs who had more vagabonds... It's one of the only ways to stop nanoships... The other way is for sure huggin and rapier, but in fact, a gang of same size with a few minmatar recons won't hurt too much, they will get killed first and then the ones that didn't think about fleeing are dead too. There are not so many minmatar recon ship pilots around.
If this is not enough flawed, what do you need?
More specificly :
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili I see a huginn/rapier i run.
You run, right, a gallente recon is needed to avoid you to warp out because you'll be out of everyone's range when the huginn finilly gets you to stop. => Does not usually kill you.
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili I get damped, i run.
You still get alive out of the fight.
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili I get jammed, i run.
Same.
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili They kill my drones, i run.
So they couldn't catch YOU, only your drones.
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili I see alot of tacklers, i run.
Everything deserves to be killed when there are enough tacklers and firepower, but most of the time you escape.
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili Medium guns have no problems hitting me, i run.
Are you serious on this one? Med guns of what? An eagle far away so he doesn't get overtracked? Blasters? No, we laught about blaster range with most nano ships... Autocannons? Same as blasters and lower tracking... You must be joking.
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili I get neutrad, i run.
Not dead again...
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili Etc...
And all the other situations where most of nano ships will get out unharmed while all other setups will die!
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili Fast ships are useful only for killing lone npc isk farmers. But i guess thats what you are if you are so ****ed about polycarbons.
Killing isk farmers? Anyway, they cloak when someone enters the system... Tried to catch some on nano gangs, before jumping in system, we got the belts assigned to people, jump in, launch warp as soon as possible, and by the time you are in the belt, you at best see someone warping out!
The real issue is 'Why nano gangs are so impossible to kill?'. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Say hello to my tiny friends ! |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:48:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jade190 I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO YOUR PROBLEM:
You all play eve way too much and are obviously in love with it because you have nothing else to love in your lives.... I suggest you all go get girlfriends (or boyfriends fro you females ;D ).
My wife plays Eve, too, often a lot more than I do.
...won't help with balancing nano rigs, though.
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Jade190
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:55:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
My wife plays Eve, too, often a lot more than I do.
...won't help with balancing nano rigs, though.
Point of that post: You guys take eve way too seriously, it's just a game. You bought the game for some reason, why not play the game you bought instead of buying a game and then asking for changes?
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Darth Pheonix
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:58:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
(text)
So the outcome of every battle or encounter should be: One ship lives and one ship dies (or one side lives and one side dies)?
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Spacetrooper Kili
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Posted - 2007.11.14 13:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Darth Pheonix
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
(text)
So the outcome of every battle or encounter should be: One ship lives and one ship dies (or one side lives and one side dies)?
jep, pvp in eve should be just like fighting NPC-s. You die or kill them all.
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Darth Pheonix
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Posted - 2007.11.14 13:08:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili
jep, pvp in eve should be just like fighting NPC-s. You die or kill them all.
I disagree. And I think it's "unbalance" that we should be forced into such, frankly, bull**** combat.
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Spacetrooper Kili
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Posted - 2007.11.14 13:20:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Darth Pheonix
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili
jep, pvp in eve should be just like fighting NPC-s. You die or kill them all.
I disagree. And I think it's "unbalance" that we should be forced into such, frankly, bull**** combat.
i guess you didn't get my humor :(
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.14 14:13:00 -
[45]
For god sake. For the short brained. MY proposition on MWD is because MWD is NOT supposed to be used to speed tank!! AB are! MWD purpose its ashort speed burst to close range on enemy! MWD should NOT be used to speed tank!!!
By quadrupling the MWD masss penalty and correspondent Thrust adjustment, that would finnaly be achieved.
People Speed tanking would use AB.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.14 14:17:00 -
[46]
The point here is not nerfing nano setups. It's about polycarb rigs being unbalanced as compared to the other rigs and the respective t2 modules. The OP outlines the problem quite well.
For "nerf nanos!", "don't nerf nanos!", "get a life!", "nerf MWDs!", "help, I'm being attacked by gerbils!", please use other threads.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.14 14:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi The point here is not nerfing nano setups. It's about polycarb rigs being unbalanced as compared to the other rigs and the respective t2 modules. The OP outlines the problem quite well.
For "nerf nanos!", "don't nerf nanos!", "get a life!", "nerf MWDs!", "help, I'm being attacked by gerbils!", please use other threads.
Polycarbons are not too strong. Need to take into accoutn the ammount of salvage they need when comparing to other tigs. Also the Nanofibers itself are too weak. So that mass reduction must be done with poly.
Also my proposition HELPS on the balance between the speed mods. Because without MWD, but AB, the speed mods are better than the Polycarbons.
You need to annalyse the whole contexts of usage not simple numbers of module A and B.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.14 15:00:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Polycarbons are not too strong. Need to take into accoutn the ammount of salvage they need when comparing to other tigs. Also the Nanofibers itself are too weak. So that mass reduction must be done with poly.
As I said above, boosting nanos and making the auxiliar thruster rigs as well as low-friction nozzles better at their respective use than polycarbs works for me, too. I don't think that solves other problems, but that's beyond this thread.
Modules: - Speed? ODI! - Agility? istab! - A bit of both? nano!
Rigs: - Speed? Aux thrusters! - Agility? Low-friction nozzles! - A bit of both? Polycarbs.
That would be nice. Currently, the "modules" part is correct, but the answer to all three questions under "rigs" is "polycarbs", which is what I think is broken. (As well as that tech 1 polycarbs are better than tech 2 nanos)
Quote: Also my proposition HELPS on the balance between the speed mods. Because without MWD, but AB, the speed mods are better than the Polycarbons.
This statement is wrong as shown above - both a Claw and a Crusader with AB II is faster with polycarbs than with aux thrusters.
I do have opinions about your idea of using AB for speed tanking, but I won't discuss them here, because this thread is not about "speed tankers are generally too fast" (which is essentially what you are saying), but "the three speed rigs are unbalanced in regard to each other and to the speed modules."
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Ulstan
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.14 15:32:00 -
[49]
Quote: So the outcome of every battle or encounter should be: One ship lives and one ship dies (or one side lives and one side dies)?
No, not at all. I think if someone loses a fight against a nano'd ship they should be able to just run away, same way the nano ship can just run away from them.
Of course, that's not the way it works now, is it?
If the risk/reward ever becomes "I win, you die. You win, I live" then it's imbalanced and needs fixing.
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2007.11.14 15:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 13/11/2007 18:13:33
Originally by: Jesnen Technically they are balanced as is, they cost 4 times more than an aux thruster and give only a marginal increase in speed
Vagabond - 3x ODI II, 2x polycarb = 6,113 m/s - 2x ODI II, 1x nano II, 2x aux thruster = 5,128 => 19% speed increase with polycarbs, almost 1km/s
Huginn - 3x ODI II, 2x polycarb = 4,158 m/s - 2x ODI II, 1x nano II, 2x aux thruster = 3,491 m/s => 19% speed increase with polycarbs, 600 m/s
Sabre - 2x ODI II, 2x polycarb = 6,390 m/s - 1x ODI II, 1x nano II, 2x aux thruster = 5,405 m/s => 18% speed increase with polycarbs, 900 m/s
Sabre? Con fulfill its role at speed (as it can deploy bubbles)
Huginn? Sure, can web too.
Vagabond? Errrr. Is its role to fly fast and make dumb people shoot at it and then fly away? Because without a single gyro and all that speed you have less dps than an anemic velator.
Why instead of putting up minmatar ships you don't put up a crow, ishtar or curse?
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.14 16:09:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Vanessa Vale Why instead of putting up minmatar ships you don't put up a crow, ishtar or curse?
The argument was not "nano ships are too fast" (I have no idea why people insist on trying to refute arguments never brought up), but "polycarbs are much more useful than aux thrusters even for raw speed." This does not change for other races. I use minmatar ships in my examples because I happen to know them. Feel free to bring up examples of your own.
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Beowulf Scheafer
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.14 16:43:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jesnen When they cost 40mil apiece they should be good, if a person can afford it they should be able to buy a really uber ship, just as if a person has a high amount of sp they should be able to rock. This whining and nerfing everything just serves to dumb down the gameplay, why dont we just get rid of all low and midslots and just move our ships around and push f1-f8. Now thats some exciting combat!!
if something is expensive, it should be good, yes. but 40mil a piece is not exactly much, and definately not 10% the worth of its current efficency ^^.
honestly, the proposed changes from the op are reasonable and in line with other rigs, so i would say they even have good chances to make it ingame.
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xHomicide
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.14 18:21:00 -
[53]
Edited by: xHomicide on 14/11/2007 18:25:54 The way to fix speed setups is to STFU and come to realization that speed is important in online internet SPACESHIP games.
With that in hand, polycarbons should be cheaper, so more people would fit them.
Interesting fact: everyone fits warp disruptors, everyone fits MWDs, honestly. Maybe we should nerf plates because basically everyone uses one on their BS. Not to mention plates are basically free in comparison to polycarbons which are designed to be used on fast small cheap err I mean EXPENSIVE AS **** ships.
As it SHOULD BE, a lot of ships rely on speed and thus should obviously fit speed based rigs. --- Razor CEI
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.14 18:27:00 -
[54]
Originally by: xHomicide The way to fix speed setups is to
... post in a thread that is about "fixing speed setups." This isn't.
This thread is about balancing modules, specifically, three rigs for speed setups where one is clearly more useful than the other two even in the roles the other two are specialized in.
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Horribad
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Posted - 2007.11.14 18:30:00 -
[55]
Honestly, why do you think capital warfare is boring as sin?
ITS BECAUSE ITS SLOW. SLOW IS BAD. FAST IS GOOD. go die.
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xHomicide
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.14 18:33:00 -
[56]
Edited by: xHomicide on 14/11/2007 18:34:19 err.... my bad, I double posted. --- Razor CEI
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xHomicide
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.14 18:33:00 -
[57]
You are correct, the other speed modules need to be 'boosted'.
As it stands the other modules are not only 'worse' than polycarbons. They are 'worthless'.
It seems you miss titled your thread 'fix polycarbons' and not 'fix auxthrusters'. --- Razor CEI
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.14 18:34:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Horribad Honestly, why do you think capital warfare is boring as sin?
ITS BECAUSE ITS SLOW. SLOW IS BAD. FAST IS GOOD. go die.
Honesty, did IQs drop recently? Why is it so hard to actually read the thread and understand what you read?
Honestly, we don't give a **** about capital warfare, being slow, being fast, or being the tooth fairy.
This thread is about fixing a module that has unbalanced stats. That's it. Period.
Go cry about speed fits in other threads.
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Bomerang
Dai Dai Hai
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Posted - 2007.11.14 18:41:00 -
[59]
IT'S A TRAP!
No wonder people want to boost aux thrusters because they will give the most gain to the ships who are already the fastest. PERCENT gain anyone.
Polycarbs gives most benefit to the ship who got most mass. Again, percent reduction.
If devs fall for that trap... Who wants my stuff ?
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Gard Stardust
Gallente Pringles Inc. STYX.
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Posted - 2007.11.14 23:16:00 -
[60]
Maybe the error lies within the ability to apply riggs and certain modules several times...
The damage control can be fitted to a ship only once. Why shouldnt other modules be effective only once?
I mean I love the "pimp my ride" MTV thingie - but replacing my standard "engine housing" with a cool "polycarbone engine housing" should logically only work once...
Also replacing the internals with "nanofibre internals" is only doable once in my opinion.
Ubgrade the engine with an overdrive injector - nice thingie, but only doable once...
I would even throw warp core stabs and inertia stabs in the one mod per ship category, too...
this might set some borders to the overbording nano-menace that even the supposed anti nanoship (huginn/rapier) cannot counter - I have seen 3 rapiers trying to hold a vagabond, they were not capable of keeping him from racing back to the gate and jump away.
I think, a ship without a scout/cloak and bigger than a frig should be catched by a gatecamp - and please dont call a three rapier-camp a blob...
PS: Blobs - this is a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE RPG - massive multiplayer online = blob online? Actually I think so - teamwork wins
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