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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.14 01:02:00 -
[1]
I did some field testing in a Golem today. I tried to get as much range with with torps as possible. With my skills/implants and 2 x hydraulic bay's i have aeffective max range of 37k. Tough the problem i discovered was that somethimes even at 29-30k my missiles didnt deliver the payload. Now i wonder if this is a desync issue or wheter missiles are somehow bugged? Anybody had similar issues?
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Victor Ivanov
Minmatar The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.14 01:25:00 -
[2]
Premature ejaculation? ----------------------
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.14 01:40:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 14/11/2007 01:40:16 Did you test your range with no implants and no rigs? I've been told that rigs don't work on them. The theoretical max range with no implants/rigs and max skills is 30k on a golem. Factor in that missiles don't accelerate instantly, and your target may have been moving and that sounds about right.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.14 02:10:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 14/11/2007 01:40:16 Did you test your range with no implants and no rigs? I've been told that rigs don't work on them. The theoretical max range with no implants/rigs and max skills is 30k on a golem. Factor in that missiles don't accelerate instantly, and your target may have been moving and that sounds about right.
Rigs/Implants work as they should. Its new to me that missiles have to accelerate any DEV post available concerning this effect? Btw was moving towards the target and gaining on it so i shouldn't have lost any flighttime to the npc movig avay from me..
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Aleyah Dawnborn
Caldari SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.14 02:16:00 -
[5]
Torpedos won't get bonuses from skills, rigs or implants that add to Guided Missiles, as they aren't counted as guided. ---
My God! It's logic! Flee! |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.14 02:18:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/11/2007 02:19:11 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/11/2007 02:18:32
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 14/11/2007 01:40:16 Did you test your range with no implants and no rigs? I've been told that rigs don't work on them. The theoretical max range with no implants/rigs and max skills is 30k on a golem. Factor in that missiles don't accelerate instantly, and your target may have been moving and that sounds about right.
Rigs/Implants work as they should. Its new to me that missiles have to accelerate any DEV post available concerning this effect? Btw was moving towards the target and gaining on it so i shouldn't have lost any flighttime to the npc movig avay from me..
That's not necessarily true.
Consider:
You are moving towards someone that is 28km away at 500 m/sec. Someone is moving away from you (directly) at 450 m/sec. Also suppose you are shooting missiles at them that go 3000 m/sec
----You---->_________->________->_______-Them->
You will catch them in 28,000 meters / (500 - 450) meters/sec = 560 seconds Your missiles will catch them in 28,000 / (3,000 - 450) meters/sec = 11 seconds.
Now, how far will you have gone when you catch them? 500 meters/sec * 560 sec = 280km
How far will your missiles have gone when they catch them? 3,000 meters/sec * 11 sec = 33km
How far away were you when you shot the missile? 28km.
Just a thought. o/
Liang
Ed: I left some random equations laying about
-- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.14 02:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Aleyah Dawnborn Torpedos won't get bonuses from skills, rigs or implants that add to Guided Missiles, as they aren't counted as guided.
hydraulic bays work with torps as well as the the 3%/5% flighttime/velocity implants..
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.14 02:26:00 -
[8]
Edited by: d026 on 14/11/2007 02:26:52 edit
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.14 02:55:00 -
[9]
Edited by: d026 on 14/11/2007 02:58:24 Edited by: d026 on 14/11/2007 02:56:42
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/11/2007 02:19:11 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/11/2007 02:18:32
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 14/11/2007 01:40:16 Did you test your range with no implants and no rigs? I've been told that rigs don't work on them. The theoretical max range with no implants/rigs and max skills is 30k on a golem. Factor in that missiles don't accelerate instantly, and your target may have been moving and that sounds about right.
Rigs/Implants work as they should. Its new to me that missiles have to accelerate any DEV post available concerning this effect? Btw was moving towards the target and gaining on it so i shouldn't have lost any flighttime to the npc movig avay from me..
That's not necessarily true.
Consider:
You are moving towards someone that is 28km away at 500 m/sec. Someone is moving away from you (directly) at 450 m/sec. Also suppose you are shooting missiles at them that go 3000 m/sec
----You---->_________->________->_______-Them->
You will catch them in 28,000 meters / (500 - 450) meters/sec = 560 seconds Your missiles will catch them in 28,000 / (3,000 - 450) meters/sec = 11 seconds.
Now, how far will you have gone when you catch them? 500 meters/sec * 560 sec = 280km
How far will your missiles have gone when they catch them? 3,000 meters/sec * 11 sec = 33km
How far away were you when you shot the missile? 28km.
Just a thought. o/
Liang
Ed: I left some random equations laying about
i thought my speed carrys over to the missile. if i fly 100ms and i launch a missile with a 200m/s max velocity (fired from stationay missile battery), it should leave my accelerated bay with 200+ 100= 300 m/s?. im not completely sure if this is right but if so shouldn't this compensate for the lost flightime because the target was moving away from me? (especially if its slower than i am:)
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.14 02:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: d026
i thought my speed carrys over to the missile. if i fly 100ms and i launch a missile with a 200m/s max velocity (fired from stationay missile battery), it should leave my accelerated bay with 300m/s. im not completely sure if this is right but if so shouldn't this compensate for the lost flightime because the target was moving away from me? (especially if its slower than i am:)
I didn't take acceleration into account, actually. And I'm absolutely positive that just because you're going 500m/sec that the missile wouldn't go 3500 m/sec.
Otherwise, you'd see stuff like nano cerbs having missiles go 15-20km/sec.
Liang
-- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.14 03:03:00 -
[11]
Edited by: d026 on 14/11/2007 03:04:30
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: d026
i thought my speed carrys over to the missile. if i fly 100ms and i launch a missile with a 200m/s max velocity (fired from stationay missile battery), it should leave my accelerated bay with 300m/s. im not completely sure if this is right but if so shouldn't this compensate for the lost flightime because the target was moving away from me? (especially if its slower than i am:)
I didn't take acceleration into account, actually. And I'm absolutely positive that just because you're going 500m/sec that the missile wouldn't go 3500 m/sec.
Otherwise, you'd see stuff like nano cerbs having missiles go 15-20km/sec.
Liang
how would a missile act in rl launched from a accelerated spaceship (in a vacuum)?
edit: just tought about this. lets assume a missile has a base speed of 100m/s. your ship goes 500m/s wouldnt the missile impact on you just after you fired it?:) if not somehow the acceleration must cary on to the missile.. at least to a extent..
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.14 03:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: d026
how would a missile act in rl launched from a accelerated spaceship (in a vacuum)?
edit: just tought about this. lets assume a missile has a base speed of 100m/s. your ship goes 500m/s wouldnt the missile impact on you just after you fired it?:) if not somehow the acceleration must cary on to the missile.. at least to a extent..
Go look up some youtube videos on glider aircraft. They start (momentarily) with the inertia provided by their mass and velocity from the "parent" craft.
Air resistance quickly drops their speed down to an "acceptable" level.
Either way, newtonian physics don't apply to Eve, because otherwise we could all accelerate indefinitely in a single direction.
No, your speed does not carry over to your missiles.
Liang
-- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Gor Kraon
Minmatar Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.14 03:34:00 -
[13]
Gotta remember this is Submarines Online, not whatever those 'spaceships' are.
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Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.14 11:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gor Kraon Gotta remember this is Submarines Online, not whatever those 'spaceships' are.
True, and more like: "Submarines In Oil Online"
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.14 11:42:00 -
[15]
Yep. Did some testing also recently. (I was stationary, NPC was coming directly at me). My 'theoretical' range was 58.8 km (javelins) while it started to deliver damage around 52 km mark.
Was using 5% speed implant, 3x T1 hydralic bay thrusters and had relevant range skills (missile speed and flight time) at level 4 + caldary Bs lev 5.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:11:00 -
[16]
There are two issues:
1. An orbiting craft produces a non linear path that the missile follows. The non linear path increase flight time.
2. The pause at the end before the missile delivers payload costs missile flight time.
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Sky Marshal
Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:16:00 -
[17]
Depends of the situation. NPC can launch defenders missiles, so when I tried with a classical Raven, at range and with only one launcher activated, the Torp strikes the target in visual but no damage message, and no damage of course.
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Jerusalem Eve
Amarr Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.11.14 21:13:00 -
[18]
gotta love them new short range torps.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try
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Posted - 2007.11.14 22:51:00 -
[19]
Originally by: d026
i thought my speed carrys over to the missile. if i fly 100ms and i launch a missile with a 200m/s max velocity (fired from stationay missile battery), it should leave my accelerated bay with 200+ 100= 300 m/s?. im not completely sure if this is right but if so shouldn't this compensate for the lost flightime because the target was moving away from me? (especially if its slower than i am:)
In the old days, Ravens often used a "Dive bomber" tactic. They would have 1 ship hold down the victim and another MWD'ing towards the target. While travelling at the speed of a torp, several vollies of the missiles was fired and would hit the target at the same time, making any kind of armor reppering or shield boosing useless (18 torps hitting at once hurts a lot). You can (in theory) still do it, if you can get your Raven up to the speed of a torp. With a little luck, you can even overtake your own missiles.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.15 01:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: d026 Btw was moving towards the target and gaining on it so i shouldn't have lost any flighttime to the npc movig avay from me..
Wrong, the missile start from the position where you are and don't get extra velocity for your speed, so what count is not your velocity relative to your target, but only the target velocity, If he is running away, even if he is slower that your ship, he is adding to the total distance your missile must do.
Some rig/implants work on missile but not on rockets, and torpedoes are rockets.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.15 01:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: d026 Btw was moving towards the target and gaining on it so i shouldn't have lost any flighttime to the npc movig avay from me..
Wrong, the missile start from the position where you are and don't get extra velocity for your speed, so what count is not your velocity relative to your target, but only the target velocity, If he is running away, even if he is slower that your ship, he is adding to the total distance your missile must do.
Some rig/implants work on missile but not on rockets, and torpedoes are rockets.
if it woks like this it will be almost impossible to tell if my missile will hit or not except you can do ****load of calculations besides micromanaging all other modules on your ship while fighting. imho this is a huge drawback for torps i didnt see coming.. at least i need a indicator per target giving me the real range for my weapon. please ccp implement now!:) i mean for turets is quite easy -> check overview: tranversal? ok! distance? ok! fire!
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PCX339
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.11.15 04:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: d026 [
if it woks like this it will be almost impossible to tell if my missile will hit or not except you can do ****load of calculations besides micromanaging all other modules on your ship while fighting. imho this is a huge drawback for torps i didnt see coming.. at least i need a indicator per target giving me the real range for my weapon. please ccp implement now!:) i mean for turets is quite easy -> check overview: tranversal? ok! distance? ok! fire!
Except that the transversal is actually ratioed with the signature radius so if you want to really know what your guns will do you need to memorize enemy ship sig radius (and guess about sig radius altering fittings) and then do a lot of math. I always thought missiles were easier - maybe its a draw
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.15 13:07:00 -
[23]
Originally by: PCX339
Originally by: d026 [
if it woks like this it will be almost impossible to tell if my missile will hit or not except you can do ****load of calculations besides micromanaging all other modules on your ship while fighting. imho this is a huge drawback for torps i didnt see coming.. at least i need a indicator per target giving me the real range for my weapon. please ccp implement now!:) i mean for turets is quite easy -> check overview: tranversal? ok! distance? ok! fire!
Except that the transversal is actually ratioed with the signature radius so if you want to really know what your guns will do you need to memorize enemy ship sig radius (and guess about sig radius altering fittings) and then do a lot of math. I always thought missiles were easier - maybe its a draw
missiles just got the most complex weapon ingame:) still the difference is.. with guns its hard to know what dps you actually do due to the stuff you mentioned. still for torps i never know for sure if the hit at all. if fight starts at 20k and my target moving away at 1km/s my torp max range (8*3000-1000) just dropped significantly and i never gonna hit him . unfortunately speeds are not such nice numbers in eve. 8.42 * 3422 - 986.. is imposible to calculate for me while fighting.. probalby a math nerd can but im not one..
anyway i need to know my range at anytime! adjusted overvie doing this calculations for me would be nice.. a tab in the overview settings as you have for tranversal etc would do fine..
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.15 13:17:00 -
[24]
It could be either
1. The target is running away from you. Since the torps are so slow the extra distance they have to travel to catch the running target can be more than their max range. 2. Lag problems. Sometimes on tranq i see torps exploding on targets well within range of my missiles but doing no damage. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2007.11.15 13:23:00 -
[25]
Showing transversal for missile use? Sounds useless to me...
Physics in eve are really as it's been said before 'submarines in oil', I would even say in jelly...
When you shoot a missile, it is unaffected by your speed. So, if you're being chased, shooting missiles is more efficient (longer range) than if you're chasing someone (zero G physics would tell it doesn't matter what speed you are going but only relative speed counts - by the way, what speed would need to be relative to something, no referential means no calculations at all! - referential in Eve is the sun of the system).
If you want to run some real range tests, drop a secure container, anchor it and shoot it. Or shoot a structure like a POS gun.
PS : remember that the jelly is generated by the sun, all is relative to the sun in Eve. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Say hello to my tiny friends ! |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.15 14:02:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Showing transversal for missile use? Sounds useless to me... .
yeah you are right. but i meant something different, sorry my english is not good enough to make clear point -.-
i dont need transversal for missiles. i wish they could implement a overview tab showing you the corrected distance to the target taking my missile velocity/flighhttime and the targets velocity into account so that i know if im in missile range or not. right now its impossible to tell except you do the calc yourself.
another solution would be to add my ships velocity to the missile so that i always hit as long as i am faster or have the same speed as my opponent. if you want to outrunn my missiles you have to outrun ME instead:) first suggestion sounds better tough.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.15 14:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
If you want to run some real range tests, drop a secure container, anchor it and shoot it. Or shoot a structure like a POS gun.
thats exactely what i dont want to do because you rarely shoot stationary targets.
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2007.11.15 14:28:00 -
[28]
Originally by: d026 i wish they could implement a overview tab showing you the corrected distance to the target taking my missile velocity/flighhttime and the targets velocity into account so that i know if im in missile range or not. right now its impossible to tell except you do the calc yourself.
It's hard to calculate such a column as being related to the current speed of your missiles (there are no interactions between your weaponry and the overview right now). But you could have a relative speed to you that could help a bit more, it would not even be a relative speed to your ship, but the mesurement of the speed vector projected on the line between you and the ennemy ship.
But, what could be done would be on the tactival overlay, showing when you click on a ship or to targeted ship with a color flag if they are in range. There could even be some tracing of the missile potential trajectory calculated with the future ennemy ship position at the supposed time of impact. The fact is we can't even show a proper sphere around the ship, the current sphere is accurate for stationary targets, but not for moving targets and there is no need for a sphere to show if you can shoot your locked targets. (I hope someone understands something here !)
For the 'shoot cans' part, it was just to make sure the implants/rigs/skills are added properly. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Say hello to my tiny friends ! |
Sofring Eternus
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.11.15 19:05:00 -
[29]
Its not a hard calculation to guestimate:
True Distance = ((Distance When Fired / Torp Speed) * Target Speed) + Distance When Fired
Target is 25km away, moving 500m/s and if your Torp goes 1km/s
True Distance = ((25000 / 1000) * 500) + 25000 True Distance = 12500 + 25000 True Distance = 37500m
Which would be obviously out of range. Also remember to round up because your torpedo also has to cover the extra distance covered by the ship since you first fired the missile.
--- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ Amarr dont need Grr... and RAWR is definately too much, but some Oomph would be nice. |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.15 20:11:00 -
[30]
Quote: i dont need transversal for missiles. i wish they could implement a overview tab showing you the corrected distance to the target taking my missile velocity/flighhttime and the targets velocity into account so that i know if im in missile range or not. right now its impossible to tell except you do the calc yourself.
This can't be done because missiles are a delayed effect weapon. They may be in range when you fire them and then out of range by the time your missiles arrive.
Or they may be 'in range' given the targets current velocity but what if he suddenly changes directions? Etc.
If the opponent is heading towards you, you're good. You can fire your missiles at max range.
If he's heading away from you, you'll have to run some guestimations based on how fast the other guy is travelling (assume he's travelling away from you in a straight line) and how fast your missiles move, and how far apart you are. It's really only an issue at the extreme edge of your torpedo range when the target is moving away from you.
I don't find that situation in missions to come up all that often now, but after the torp range nerf it certainly will, and will have the effect of making the practical range of torps less than the theoretical range of torps, as there are definitely NPC ships who will try to keep you at ranges exceeding nerfed torp ranges.
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