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Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
208
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Posted - 2012.01.30 10:14:00 -
[91] - Quote
So, OP...How's all that GTC-financed ISK working out for you?
/Me giggles....Locator agent running
Is urp-splosion tyme naow? I are kyute kitten! I are in ur mishun! Redoosin' teh lag by ninja'ing ur wrekz! (CCP: Make wrecks probable, and after 30min., tractorable.) |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
294
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Posted - 2012.01.30 10:16:00 -
[92] - Quote
This old gem once again... Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4645
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Posted - 2012.01.30 10:19:00 -
[93] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Whats wrong Tippia, lots of unanswered questions there with nice little avoidance channels.
Struck a nerve? No. You struck a whole lot of nothing with your fallacies and faulty suppositions. Just because you didn't like the answers doesn't mean the questions are unanswered or avoided.
If you simply don't understand the answers, just say so. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Cannibal Kane
Priest of New Eden Stay Calm Don't Panic
227
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Posted - 2012.01.30 10:22:00 -
[94] - Quote
I think all the OP did was give people a target for a wardec.
On another note... I do alot of flipping. Mostly other can flippers cans since they actually commit to fights and popping a Heavy Assualt ships with t1 Cruiser is always exciting.
If I flip a newbie and he actually comes at me with a ship. I give him 10mil for actually having the guts to engage.
I hate that word noob... newbie is better. Newbie is new... noob is a moron that has played for 4 years and still loose his shiny **** doing stupid things.
"Demoralize the Enemy from within by Surprise, Terror, Sabotage, Assassination. This method of Guarilla Warfare is the only Method of Warfare for me"
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Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2012.01.30 10:24:00 -
[95] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: CSM forums are reserved for serious discussion so your cowardly alt posting about your poorly reasoned misconceptions on basic concepts of EVE has no place there. If the author of the opinion needs to make forum alts rather then stand behind their beliefs (because deep down they have no faith in what they're presenting and/or they fear space-pixel consequences), then those beliefs certainly aren't worth sharing in a serious discussion. That's what General Discussion is for.
Well we both know then that the reason why I use a forum alt then is to avoid the meta gaming malicious strikes due to posting on the forum then don't we.
This is usually because "knuckle scraping" types use the opportunity to grief in this way to demonstrate their point as opposed to debate. So yes, I'm intelligently avoiding that hassle. See above for case and point (though might be humour of course).
If the General discussion could afford a serious discussion with an expectation of "mature" participation, it might not be an issue and your point might be valid. Unfortunatley its not, and your naive propoganda campaign is therefore not helpfull. Especially when you tend to simply use it purely for a spam alternative to points you don't like.
Also, if the CSM can avoid having to declare names in their minutes to avoid drama, I don't see why the forums should not be afforded a similar purpose. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:27:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Whats wrong Tippia, lots of unanswered questions there with nice little avoidance channels.
Struck a nerve? No. You struck a whole lot of nothing with your fallacies and faulty suppositions. Just because you didn't like the answers doesn't mean the questions are unanswered or avoided. If you simply don't understand the answers, just say so.
Make your answers more relevant and actually answer them perhaps?
I'm not going to waste my time pandering to your usual around the houses, water torture process of avoidance. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4645
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:28:00 -
[97] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Make your answers more relevant and actually answer them perhaps? Done. If you don't understand the answers, just say so, and ask for clarification. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2012.01.30 10:40:00 -
[98] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Again, the actual problem is that, once learned, nearly every form of PvP in highsec besides suicide ganks is easy to avoid (and even suicide ganks aren't very difficult), meaning noobs who don't know how to evade wardecs and canflip bait are the ones who get preyed upon instead of the NPC corp guy missioning solo in a 6 bil BS. Additionally, making ships more gankable, thanks to risk/reward, coerces carebears to scale back on the amount of pimping out they can do n their PvE machine, putting them on a more even playing field with newer players.
K, so we both know you like easier targets now and the affinity for the challanging noobs, no suprises there then. |
Jess Maine
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:41:00 -
[99] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:Renarla wrote:Mine into secure cans. Problem solved.
Next! Clearly, using a secure container and then have one of the newbies do the hauling is not the way to go. Don't you realise that it's better to have 6 newbies mine rather than 5 while 1 is hauling? Teamwork? Logic? Effort? What are those filthy words! Again for the last time. Not the point of the post. Point of the post: Want more players in? Make it fun for new players. Not angry, not hard work for them. Or keep your playerbase at the very slowly rising or sometimes sharply falling levels. People play games to have fun. As far as game definition goes.
And I'm currently happy with both the population and level of enjoyment, and I'm down in Nullsec which is plenty more dangerous than Hi-sec. We don't want people like you numbing this game down for the new generation because you think its the fun and right thing to do - it isn't. Stop complaining and find solutions to your own problems instead of whining about ship losses that could EASILY be avoided. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:42:00 -
[100] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Make your answers more relevant and actually answer them perhaps? Done. If you don't understand the answers, just say so, and ask for clarification.
I do undertsand the answers, they aren't relevant and simply avoidance techniques, repeat ad infinitum Tippia water toruture process TM count incremented by 1.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
282
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Posted - 2012.01.30 10:44:00 -
[101] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Again, the actual problem is that, once learned, nearly every form of PvP in highsec besides suicide ganks is easy to avoid (and even suicide ganks aren't very difficult), meaning noobs who don't know how to evade wardecs and canflip bait are the ones who get preyed upon instead of the NPC corp guy missioning solo in a 6 bil BS. Additionally, making ships more gankable, thanks to risk/reward, coerces carebears to scale back on the amount of pimping out they can do n their PvE machine, putting them on a more even playing field with newer players.
K, so we both know you like easier targets now and the affinity for the challanging noobs, no suprises there then. that was established when I started replying to your posts. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4649
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:44:00 -
[102] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:I do undertsand the answers No, you don't, or you would actually try to argue the points being made rather than trying this silly GÇ£oh, but you didn't answerGÇ¥ evasion.
If you don't understand the answers (including if you don't understand the relevance), just say so, and ask for clarification.
Why is it so hard for you to point out any actual, specific problems with my answers? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:59:00 -
[103] - Quote
I dont like getting wet, I guess.
Tippia wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Look at the history of anyone trying to argue for a change to ganking and the inane hostile reaction to things. And you say adaptability. Yes. Because no matter how much things change, the gankers have always adapted. No matter how much things change, the targets fail to adapt (and their failure is the driving force behind the change). The hostile reactions come from the ignorance of the targets about the options available to them, and how this ignorance makes them claim the most outrageously silly things without having anything to back it up. Things like GÇ£ganking is a problemGÇ¥. The hostile reaction is to their demanding change for no adequately explained reason.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12291174 (Likley 10:1 ratio of assest discrepancy, with attempts to improve defence)
Imo, hulk has attempted to compromise for defence, attackers significantly undervalued by comparison.
Quote:Quote:But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game. Nice straw man.
You havent answered the question. Avoidance.
tbc .... |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:00:00 -
[104] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:Would you say that if more supply was available it would increase trading competition? I would say that more supply without any demand would make industrialists' lives more dull and drastically reduce their income.
Without supply there would be no competition, without demand there would be no supply. Its a balance. You only are arguing from one side. Try this rather than avoiding with semantics. Re-read the question and answer fairly as possible with a yes no answer?
Since, if on an existing trading situation more supply would increase competition? I understand its sepculative as its up to individuals but the normality is for competing trade to acctively out bid each other in the quest for buyers. Thus with more supply being introduced it increases competition. I have a station trader alt myself and I know how frustrating it can be to try to keep up with other peoples interests in trade hubs.
But my opinion of your expertise in economics will go down if you say no to this one. The simplest way of looking at it is that if it is a monopoly the trader can command what price they like assuming demand.
Quote:Quote:Would you say that the aspect of suicide ganking you seem to profit from both as a "vulture" looter and a station trader bias your opinion? Mu.
Scared of your self acclaimed status? And doesnt answer the question.
tbc .. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:01:00 -
[105] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:Destruction is helpful it does generate demand, doesn't have to suicide ganking It does as long as people can hide their activities behind layers of anonymity and protection from more organised attacks.
Hence why I'd advocated in my original post the importance to ensure that the conflict mechanics can improve those methods. Quoting out of context much, or as usual miss representing posts with only part quotes? |
T'Laar Bok
45
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:23:00 -
[106] - Quote
When I started playing Eve it wasn't unusual for me to have 12 full cans out, rotating them as they expired before hauling them back to staton. Sometimes I'd lose ore to other players, sometimes I didn't.
Not sure where I'm going with this, just thought I'd share.
Except to say to your friends to have patients and stick with it, you'll eventually welcome the detractions.
Amphetimines are your friend. |
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
1316
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:23:00 -
[107] - Quote
I partly like this conversation, although i think you should both scratch it all and restart by rephrasing what you were talking about, simply to remove the "you didn't answer my questions".
Why restart ? Because it's only getting deeper and deeper, more and more complicated, so a fresh start via simple means is needed. That is ... if anybody here actually WANTS to talk about it, instead of just throwing opinions at one another.
That said ... i believe you guys are wasting your time. Get abstract, reduce the information of what's going on and who's participating and then check the options.
There's no way to educate people by force. Those who want to be educated, will get educated. Those who don't ... won't. That's a fact and we can split most players into these two categories.
-> One can't force people into getting smarter.
I've met quite a few people who've spent their first weeks only reading up, but there seem to be way more people not doing that ... and they can't be forced to do it.
There are those who run the tutorials (i never did), but these can't do very much either, because there's far more knowledge about EvE out there than could be offered by any tutorials ever.
As Tippia said, there's a lack of responsibility ... and it's the lack of acknowledging that ... ... "it's my fault if i die, i just don't know that i don't have enough information at hand to stay alive" ... ... which can be reduced to "it's my fault", which is the hardest part for most of the morons out there.
Hence, the only thing that can be done is to try and weed out all those who don't "fit" into EvE ... ... preferably as soon as possible ... to actually improve the overall experience for everybody.
Accepting the people who don't "get" the game only makes the game worse. It fills the forums up with more threads about whining people who can't deal with (eve) reality ... ... such as incursion-whiners whining about people who legitimately enter it and kill the mom as soon as it pops up ... ... or people whining about (ninja) salvagers "stealing" their salvage ... hauler pilots whining about getting popped ... ... or people whining about afk-cloakers ... etc etc etc ...
Wow, this list really keeps on going ........
Now, those who come up with "don't force onto others how you play your game" or "i play the way i want to" ... Well ... you may play as you want, but the rules of the game are clearly stated and YOU have to obey them ! Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:31:00 -
[108] - Quote
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:So, OP...How's all that GTC-financed ISK working out for you? /Me giggles....Locator agent running Is urp-splosion tyme naow?
Don't **** your pants when your locator finds. You funding your pvps with gtcs? Very bad habit. You know how to scan at all? Or farm sites? Go to school boy. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4650
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:33:00 -
[109] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12291174 (Likley 10:1 ratio of assest discrepancy, with attempts to improve defence)
Imo, hulk has attempted to compromise for defence, attackers significantly undervalued by comparison. So? Why is that a problem? Also, no. That was a very poor fit for defence.
Quote:You havent answered the question. Avoidance. GǪexcept that it wasn't a question GÇö it was a statement trying to impose a position on me that I have never taken. I didn't provide an answer GÇö I provided a rebuttal, explaining that your statement was a straw man.
Quote:Without supply there would be no competition, without demand there would be no supply. Its a balance. You only are arguing from one side. Try this rather than avoiding with semantics. Re-read the question and answer fairly as possible with a yes no answer? It's not so much a balance as a dynamic system that seeks an equilibrium. If it becomes static, it becomes boring, and more to the point: if the supply vastly outpaces the demand, it just hurts the industrialists. Of course I'm only arguing from one side: mine. The answer cannot be made with a simple yes or no because of the dynamics. Most likely, no, it wouldn't GÇö the margins would be nil and there is no profit in trying to compete over them. It would just stack up in ever-expanding backlog sell orders that never get fulfilled. That is not competition GÇö that's just stagnation. We've seen this happen before and it didn't generate any competition then either.
Also, going by the way many carbears argue, there would most certainly be a supply without a demand GÇö just look at all the demands for buffed mining ability.
Quote:Scared of your self acclaimed status? And doesnt answer the question. It fully answers the question: your question rests on faulty suppositions and thus cannot be answered meaningfully.
Have you stopped beating your wife yet (Y/N)?
Loaded question, false dichotomy, (another) straw man, causal oversimplification, beggin the questionGǪ pick your fallacy.
Quote:Quoting out of context much, or as usual miss representing posts with only part quotes? The context is that you're trying to infer that ganking is harmful. I'm rejecting that supposition and pointing out that, the way the EVE economy works, destruction of assets is pretty much always beneficial and that ganking in particular is pretty much required due to the kind of destruction it enables. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
baltec1
514
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:44:00 -
[110] - Quote
I have been playing for years and had one gank attempt upon one of my industry ships. I looted his stuff and sld it in jita with the rest of my cargo.
Industrial ships a VERY easy to tank to survive a gank. |
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Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
1317
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:46:00 -
[111] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I have been playing for years and had one gank attempt upon one of my industry ships. I looted his stuff and sld it in jita with the rest of my cargo.
Industrial ships a VERY easy to tank to survive a gank.
I see a guy who tries to use his brains to survive and who acknowledges that he CAN die, but he can TRY to avoid it ... and i see people coming telling him that he's wrong, simply because they don't have the information that he has. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:48:00 -
[112] - Quote
I'm simply going to have to disagree with your opinion on the matter as I feel we are simply diometrically opposed on two ends of a valid spectrum, Tippia.
All I see is you arguing your case with extremes selfishly in a deperate attempt to maintain any position in game. And I'm sorry I've lost quite a bit of respect for your opinion as a result.
And whilst I might be championing the "industrial/trader" case, freely admit it. But I'm also trying to advocate PvP improvements and fun here for all for non-selfish reasons. There is no call for removal of mechanics, I'm not trying to prevent something exclusively, no. In essence I'm trying to make a compromise as usual.
Does this mean that some "carebear" types might provide challenging views of "dumbing" the game down to the point of pointlesness asking for "cotton wool" mechanics? Yes, I've seen many an example of this and I also don't like the immunity approach.
But my view is there is simply too much in favour of criminal "suicide ganking" with gaming mechanics and just how it works. And as such more consequential outcomes and difficulty needs to be applied to the ganking process. Wether you like that view or not will not change the opinion, as I have explained.
Maybe I should just change my entire view on the subject and start being obstinatley self interested also and ask for complete immunity in High sec and stuff the EvE gaming community interests, seems to be the accepted "status quo". Lets just let EvE go to the wall, who cares. |
baltec1
516
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:53:00 -
[113] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:I'm simply going to have to disagree with your opinion on the matter as I feel we are simply diometrically opposed on two ends of a valid spectrum, Tippia.
All I see is you arguing your case with extremes selfishly in a deperate attempt to maintain any position in game. And I'm sorry I've lost quite a bit of respect for your opinion as a result.
And whilst I might be championing the "industrial/trader" case, freely admit it. But I'm also trying to advocate PvP improvements and fun here for all for non-selfish reasons. There is no call for removal of mechanics, I'm not trying to prevent something exclusively, no. In essence I'm trying to make a compromise as usual.
Does this mean that some "carebear" types might provide challenging views of "dumbing" the game down to the point of pointlesness asking for "cotton wool" mechanics? Yes, I've seen many an example of this and I also don't like the immunity approach.
But my view is there is simply too much in favour of criminal "suicide ganking" with gaming mechanics and just how it works. And as such more consequential outcomes and difficulty needs to be applied to the ganking process. Wether you like that view or not will not change the opinion, as I have explained.
Maybe I should just change my entire view on the subject and start being obstinatley self interested also and ask for complete immunity in High sec and stuff the EvE gaming community interests, seems to be the accepted "status quo". Lets just let EvE go to the wall, who cares.
There is not an imbalance in favor of gankers. There are more than enough tools to stop yourself from getting ganked, the fact that people chose not to use them is not an argument for further nerfs to pirates. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:00:00 -
[114] - Quote
Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2708
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:00:00 -
[115] - Quote
It seems like you're putting more effort into complaining than it would take to actually put some tank on your haulers, and maybe use a Blockade Runner, Orca or Freighter to move the high-value stuff, and fly defensively.
I regularly move high value cargoes through hi-sec, and I have never, ever been ganked in hi-sec, not even once in over 5 years. For the simple reason that when I'm carrying said high value cargo, I fly in exactly the same way as I do in 0.0 or lo-sec: I assume everyone in local is hostile unless I know for sure they aren't, and will, given the chance, kill me and take my stuff. I fly, fit and choose my ships accordingly.
So far it has worked flawlessly.
I've had some pretty hairy escapes, like when I didn't notice that we had a wardec, and I jumped an Iteron V full of T2 ships and mods into a system with 5 WTs in, but even then I managed to get my ship and cargo out intact.
Perhaps you should try this method before dismissing it out of hand. It really does have its charms: desperately maneuvering a cloaked Ity V slowly further and further from the gate while 5 hostiles were trying to decloak me, and trying to work out in my head "how far away from a Taranis does a cloaked, fully expanded iteron have to be before it's safe to decloak and warp?" was an incredibly tense and thrilling experience that lasted what seemed like hours. I didn't get any KMs from it, but in a sense you could say I won a 1v5, and afterwards I was pretty wrung out, let me tell you!
PS The answer is 80Km. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
baltec1
516
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:01:00 -
[116] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you.
90% of this thread is everyone telling you you are wrong. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2708
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:01:00 -
[117] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you.
This exact same thread was alive and well as far back as 2007 to my certain memory, and in all likelihood, much further back. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:02:00 -
[118] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: There is not an imbalance in favor of gankers. There are more than enough tools to stop yourself from getting ganked, the fact that people chose not to use them is not an argument for further nerfs to pirates.
When hulks cannot get consistantly get knocked out of the sky from a handfull of destroyers regardless of whatever shield fits they put on them and at significantly less assest cost to themselves I will beleive you. Until then sorry, just another dont touch my area of the game, don't care about you comment.
Bring on a working bounty system, bring on corrective war changes, bring back the fun. Pinata bashing doesnt interest me or the losers who participate in it. |
Sasha Azala
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:02:00 -
[119] - Quote
Simple effective way to avoid can flipping is to not use cans. Worked for me in the past.
If people insist on solo mining using cans then make sure it's in a quiet system. Problem with quiet systems though is the price you will get for the ore is lower than busier systems. Might be better to just keep hauling it back to the station each time.
Alternatively, a second account, one hauling one mining.
Is it really putting people off of the game? I don't see any real evidence of this.
I've just got back yesterday, from about 2 months of playing Skyrim fairly solidly, but Skyrim just does not quite deliver what I Iook for in a game.
On returning last evening (GMT) I was surprised to see that the online account figure was over 50,000. So again it does not seem to be putting people off.
As long as the CCP don't jump on the same ban wagon that most MMOs have done, then it's a game I'm likely to return to if I do leave for awhile.
Main thing I see as putting any new players off, is the amount of time it takes to train up to do something more useful. Of course you could increase your training by buying and selling PLEX then buy some +4 implants. But most people new won't want to buy PLEX as they've not decided if they like the game enough by then.
Before anyone says 'post with your main' this is my main as from last evening. |
Shirah Yuri
Allied Assault Universal Constant Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:04:00 -
[120] - Quote
I consider myself very much an industrialist, miner and trader.
This could imply that I was seeing can-flippers and gankers in a bad light. But, to put it simple, I am not. Can-flippers distort the business of solo miners and kill the ships of stupid and/or too daring solo miners. For any sane miner, this serves as incentive to team up with others. Have one player act as a hauler and other players do the mining work. What's wrong with that?
Gankers shoot down careless traders and miners. Yes, I've had my losses, too, and I've learned from them. But: traders shot down means less competition for me as a trader. And ships being destroyed... yay for the industy. And, to be honest, it's quite an adrenaline surge to fly with a transport carrying a billion isk in cargo. I wouldn't want to miss that :)
As the ferengi put it nicely:
- Peace is good for profit. - War is good for profit.
You just gotta work with that muscle between your ears. |
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