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Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.
I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1782
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP pandering to idiots who can't read warnings would be terrible, nope andski for csm7~ |
Valentyn3
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Don't use jet cans for mining? "Absolutely no jabs or fast punches of any kind. Jabbers can not be on our team." |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Valentyn3 wrote:Don't use jet cans for mining?
So old that forgot when you was new and flew ships that could not hold more then tiny amounts of ore? |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Just a heads up here for the unaware. Bored Vets couldn't care less whether new players start playing EVE; in fact, best I can tell, most of them would rather they didn't. This is why people who 'carebear' or come and 'whine' on the forums get told to gtfo and go play WoW. I should have thought that was obvious.
edit: ..not suggesting i'm one who feels that way. Quite the opposite really, but I can't be bothered to argue with those that do. TIIP: The Incredible Invisible Poster |
baltec1
507
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Valentyn3 wrote:Don't use jet cans for mining? So old that forgot when you was new and flew ships that could not hold more then tiny amounts of ore?
Get a friend to haul it. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
283
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote: A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them).
Mayhaps they should try a less busy system. Let me guess, they were mining in Perimiter ???????????
No hassle for them if they moved to Amarr while noob.
And what kind of game players are they anyway ? Running at what seems like their only signs of trouble ?
When that happened to me in my Noob area (Fricoure/Brapelille/Dodixie) I was only MORE determined to outwith them once I figured out what was going on, which led to me eventually GANKING the ones who stole/flipped me.
They are better off gone. Much worse happens in EVE, but.....that's life in EVE. It ain't for everyone. Good thing they are gone, as they would probably want CONCORD protection next with their Low Sec PI or something. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Just a heads up here for the unaware. Bored Vets couldn't care less whether new players start playing EVE; in fact, best I can tell, most of them would rather they didn't. This is why people who 'carebear' or come and 'whine' on the forums get told to gtfo and go play WoW. I should have thought that was obvious.
All noobs can do effectively is "carebear". You cant take them to W-Space or Null right away. They need skill books, they want to stay close to their starting locations, they want to wander around. And they not used to idea that ship is expendable. And they dont like that idea. It takes some time for them to get used to it and gain experience. All what flippers and gankers effectively do is making people angry and out of the game. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Alex Sinai wrote: A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them).
Mayhaps they should try a less busy system. Let me guess, they were mining in Perimiter ??????????? No hassle for them if they moved to Amarr while noob.
It's not the point of the post where they are in High sec. The point of the post is simple. Can flippers and gankers in High sec are bad for the game. They make people leave more effectively then anything else in the game. |
baltec1
507
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:
All noobs can do effectively is "carebear". You cant take them to W-Space or Null right away. They need skill books, they want to stay close to their starting locations, they want to wander around. And they not used to idea that ship is expendable. And they dont like that idea. It takes some time for them to get used to it and gain experience. All what flippers and gankers effectively do is making people angry and out of the game.
Yes you can. |
|
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
285
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:
It's not the point of the post where they are in High sec. The point of the post is simple. Can flippers and gankers in High sec are bad for the game. They make people leave more effectively then anything else in the game.
Welp, I'M STILL HERE. Sheesh. Maybe affects 5% of noobs...........
Maybe America is the only place with 'Freshman Hazing". That's all it is. And one does NOT quit school because of 'hazing'.
No backbone whatsoever.
And looking for sympathy on these Forums is a Fool's Errand. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Damsel in Distress
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Andski wrote:CCP pandering to idiots who can't read warnings would be terrible, nope
Wow - discriminating idiots and illiterates - this gives Eve a bad name.
I'm new to this game, but form what I understood from reading these forums, it's all related to the CSM and block voting - maybe CCP should introduce a CSM representative for idiots. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 23:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:
It's not the point of the post where they are in High sec. The point of the post is simple. Can flippers and gankers in High sec are bad for the game. They make people leave more effectively then anything else in the game.
Welp, I'M STILL HERE. Sheesh. Maybe affects 5% of noobs........... Maybe America is the only place with 'Freshman Hazing". That's all it is. And one does NOT quit school because of 'hazing'. No backbone whatsoever. And looking for sympathy on these Forums is a Fool's Errand.
Would you please stop editing your posts several times after you posted them? Thanks.
EVE is a game. People come to play. Not to work. Not to get angry at something or be bothered too much. For that they have life. Real life.
If they log in and get anger, bothered and no fun, they leave. As simple as that. No use for any backbones whatsoever here. Its a game. |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Terrible CEOs ruin the experience of new players. Join a better corp. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
544
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
I don't see a problem with flippers... maybe thats because I learned the first time it happened not to shoot/take from the can.
And for the record, when I was a noob I didn't jetcan mine after the first incident... I flew back and forth in my little frigate. Aptly named the Tormentor. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alexandra Delarge wrote:Terrible CEOs ruin the experience of new players. Join a better corp.
Terrible mechanics ruin the experience of new players. Join a better game.
How in the world terrible CEOs stay CEOs in corps in EVE. Obvious troll. |
gfldex
303
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.
You mean the insurance nerf?
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:I don't see a problem with flippers... maybe thats because I learned the first time it happened not to shoot/take from the can.
And for the record, when I was a noob I didn't jetcan mine after the first incident... I flew back and forth in my little frigate. Aptly named the Tormentor.
When i was a noob i learned that too. But when we both were noobs can flippers as it seems wasn't that much of a problem. Today is a whole different story. If you not jetcan they just fly in and bump you interfering with your activities. At least that what i hear'd from people in High sec. I'm not in High and not imagining myself there. But i know a few noob corps run by friends. It's worse then it was when i was noob. |
Liam Mirren
200
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
OP failed to realise (we all did in the beginning, guess what; we're still here) that EVE is a harsh PVP environment which manifests itself in many different ways. If you had several can flippers on the same day don't you think said newbies should THINK about what they're doing and what they should be doing differently? It's not very difficult to ask in rookie/help chat what can be done about it, LEARN what can be done about is and create some teamwork.
In other words, learn from it, deal with it and if you don't or can't adapt, get out.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Renarla
21
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mine into secure cans. Problem solved.
Next! |
|
baltec1
507
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:I don't see a problem with flippers... maybe thats because I learned the first time it happened not to shoot/take from the can.
And for the record, when I was a noob I didn't jetcan mine after the first incident... I flew back and forth in my little frigate. Aptly named the Tormentor. When i was a noob i learned that too. But when we both were noobs can flippers as it seems wasn't that much of a problem. Today is a whole different story. If you not jetcan they just fly in and bump you interfering with your activities. At least that what i hear'd from people in High sec. I'm not in High and not imagining myself there. But i know a few noob corps run by friends. It's worse then it was when i was noob.
It is exactly the same from when I first started mining in my ibis for a domi mothership. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:OP failed to realise (we all did in the beginning, guess what; we're still here) that EVE is a harsh PVP environment which manifests itself in many different ways. If you had several can flippers on the same day don't you think said newbies should THINK about what they're doing and what they should be doing differently? It's not very difficult to ask in rookie/help chat what can be done about it, LEARN what can be done about is and create some teamwork.
In other words, learn from it, deal with it and if you don't or can't adapt, get out.
Very creative and thinking post. Shows so much intellect.
EVE is by far not harsh and totally not PVP environment. EVE is a walk in the park with BLOBS that by mistake or intention somehow called PVP. Just take a good look around. The rest not deserve any comment. |
Liam Mirren
200
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Renarla wrote:Mine into secure cans. Problem solved.
Next!
Clearly, using a secure container and then have one of the newbies do the hauling is not the way to go. Don't you realise that it's better to have 6 newbies mine rather than 5 while 1 is hauling? Teamwork? Logic? Effort? What are those filthy words! If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Renarla wrote:Mine into secure cans. Problem solved.
Next! Clearly, using a secure container and then have one of the newbies do the hauling is not the way to go. Don't you realise that it's better to have 6 newbies mine rather than 5 while 1 is hauling? Teamwork? Logic? Effort? What are those filthy words!
Again for the last time. Not the point of the post.
Point of the post: Want more players in? Make it fun for new players. Not angry, not hard work for them. Or keep your playerbase at the very slowly rising or sometimes sharply falling levels. People play games to have fun. As far as game definition goes. |
Liam Mirren
200
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:OP failed to realise (we all did in the beginning, guess what; we're still here) that EVE is a harsh PVP environment which manifests itself in many different ways. If you had several can flippers on the same day don't you think said newbies should THINK about what they're doing and what they should be doing differently? It's not very difficult to ask in rookie/help chat what can be done about it, LEARN what can be done about is and create some teamwork.
In other words, learn from it, deal with it and if you don't or can't adapt, get out.
Very creative and thinking post. Shows so much intellect. EVE is by far not harsh and totally not PVP environment. EVE is a walk in the park with BLOBS that by mistake or intention somehow called PVP. Just take a good look around. The rest not deserve any comment.
So that's why you keep losing your lol ships to 1-2 people in pvp? If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
189
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.
I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.
if they quit over this, it was inevitable that they would quit eventually anyway.
if you do stupid ****, bad things happen to you in eve.
If they're new, they need to realize they're new, and ask questions before they do ****.
this is working as intended. Eve either makes you stronger or drives you off. It's your choice, though. |
baltec1
507
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:
Again for the last time. Not the point of the post.
Point of the post: Want more players in? Make it fun for new players. Not angry, not hard work for them. Or keep your playerbase at the very slowly rising or sometimes sharply falling levels. People play games to have fun. As far as game definition goes.
EvE has never done anything but grow year on year so CCP does not need to gut its core gameplay to get more numbers in. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:
All noobs can do effectively is "carebear". You cant take them to W-Space or Null right away. They need skill books, they want to stay close to their starting locations, they want to wander around. And they not used to idea that ship is expendable. And they dont like that idea. It takes some time for them to get used to it and gain experience. All what flippers and gankers effectively do is making people angry and out of the game.
Yes you can.
I beg to differ. We had a 20 million Sp requirement on our Wormhole Corp for a reason. Take a Newb into an environment like that, and the best they can hope for is waiting until they can train up Gas-mining, mining, or scanning effectively enough to do something with it. Even then, it's not going to happen overnight, and they are still going to be sitting on their arses for the most part.
TIIP: The Incredible Invisible Poster |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
286
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: And looking for sympathy on these Forums is a Fool's Errand.
Would you please stop editing your posts several times after you posted them? Thanks.
No.
MAN...do YOU EVER have issues. I mean, am I supposed to say, "Yes SIR, dearest Commander, dear ?
Are you really cut out for this game ?????
(and I can't miss the irony in above quotage) OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
baltec1
508
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote: I beg to differ. We had a 20 million Sp requirement on our Wormhole Corp for a reason. Take a Newb into an environment like that, and the best they can hope for is waiting until they can train up Gas-mining, mining, or scanning effectively enough to do something with it. Even then, it's not going to happen overnight, and they are still going to be sitting on their arses for the most part.
This |
|
Umega
Solis Mensa
76
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Just about ever MMO ends up having their sub-base decrease and wane over the years. Of course with varies spikes here and there for different reasons like expansions, good patches, sub to F2P/P2W.. then go back to a downward slope.
EVE going on.. 9ish years now? Has been able to break out of that norm and has had consistent growth over its lifetime. Excluding the shitstorm of '11.. which was an anom in the sense it was a cocktail of varies things hitting the fan at the same time, brought about in a mixture of CCP's fault with a couple of things, player expectations too high or misdirected/understood, and just a broken/manipulated media frenzy.
If EVE were to ever go down the 'entitlement fan club' of needing a snuggie and a hug for every miss-step a player takes themselves, allowing a safety net to catch them and put them back on their feet again with no penality to that player.. this game will die. All the 'vets' will likely lose interest and leave. PvP would become stagnant, the market would become stagnant. And all the people wanting to mind their own business and be left alone.. would end up bored as they do the same PvE with 100% safety over and over.. until it becomes boring and something else more exciting and new on the horizon comes out to play. Happens to every other MMO..
Hasn't happened to this one.
I'll be damned if I am going to watch some of you selfish pricks try to completely flip this game into something it isn't, because you have some weird demented right to believe it should be.. when you can do what I did, and go find the game that fits the style you want.
I fully welcome more people.. more more people bring them on. But those people best get this is EVE.. it isn't like any of the other MMOs they are used, they need to accept that or find something else.
'Vets' don't dislike new people. I'd say from personal perspective.. 'vets' hate stupidity that has nothing to do with just being a fresh newb, and people that are trying to completely change the landscape of EVE, because the game doesn't suit their style.
I wish I could walk into some of your homes.. drop a deuce right on your wall, and tell you 'It looks better this way cause I said so'. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
286
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:
If they log in and get anger, bothered and no fun, they leave. As simple as that. No use for any backbones whatsoever here. Its a game.
Sometimes WEEKS are no fun in EVE, but I'M STILL HERE. And so are many others.
In fact all last SUMMER was miserable.
This is all just one big questionable eye-roll.
OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
60
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:Renarla wrote:Mine into secure cans. Problem solved.
Next! Clearly, using a secure container and then have one of the newbies do the hauling is not the way to go. Don't you realise that it's better to have 6 newbies mine rather than 5 while 1 is hauling? Teamwork? Logic? Effort? What are those filthy words! Again for the last time. Not the point of the post. Point of the post: Want more players in? Make it fun for new players. Not angry, not hard work for them. Or keep your playerbase at the very slowly rising or sometimes sharply falling levels. People play games to have fun. As far as game definition goes.
We don't need new players that just want to change the game to suit themselves and whine about everything that goes wrong. We need players with some backbone, who can see a mistake made, learn from it and get on with enjoying the game. I made my share of mistakes in the first month or so, I still do, but if you never make mistakes you never learn as much.
Fun is objective, I find the game fun because you set your own goals and the game has challenges to overcome that mean you need your wits about you. I don't find the game fun when it's so safe that I don't have to worry what might happen next. My first few months of the game were spent in a large corp that were involved in wars and it was quite a blast to be prey to much more experienced players, the challenge of learning how to evade them and learning to not panic in combat were what made the game fun.
Not sure how you define fun, but I've done mining and I needed to do something a bit more exciting afterwards to have some fun. /facebrick for those times when /facepalm just isn't enough |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
107
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
I think most will let the slow fall behind a wash out, who needs them if they can't make there own way. The mechanics are fine you steel, you can get shot. Don't want stuff stolen lock it up. Can't use team work in a MMORPG go back to minecraft and build your pathetic needles can't be destroyed crap.
GAME IS GRIM AND DARK, OH NO AZZ TO MUCH FOR TEH KIDZ AND NOOBZ WE MUST MAKE HI-SEC SAFE AND PLAYER VS PLAYER INTERACTION SHOULD NEVER BE ALOWED
OH WAIT YOUR A TROLL
1.2/10 I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
286
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:
EVE is by far not harsh and totally not PVP environment. EVE is a walk in the park with BLOBS that by mistake or intention somehow called PVP. Just take a good look around. The rest not deserve any comment.
Are you playing EVE ??? Check your start icon. You were playing something else........ OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Liam Mirren
201
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:45:00 -
[36] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:
EVE is by far not harsh and totally not PVP environment. EVE is a walk in the park with BLOBS that by mistake or intention somehow called PVP. Just take a good look around. The rest not deserve any comment.
Are you playing EVE ??? Check your start icon. You were playing something else........
He does, but he's not very good at it.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
60
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
Umega wrote:Just about ever MMO ends up having their sub-base decrease and wane over the years. Of course with varies spikes here and there for different reasons like expansions, good patches, sub to F2P/P2W.. then go back to a downward slope.
EVE going on.. 9ish years now? Has been able to break out of that norm and has had consistent growth over its lifetime. Excluding the shitstorm of '11.. which was an anom in the sense it was a cocktail of varies things hitting the fan at the same time, brought about in a mixture of CCP's fault with a couple of things, player expectations too high or misdirected/understood, and just a broken/manipulated media frenzy.
If EVE were to ever go down the 'entitlement fan club' of needing a snuggie and a hug for every miss-step a player takes themselves, allowing a safety net to catch them and put them back on their feet again with no penality to that player.. this game will die. All the 'vets' will likely lose interest and leave. PvP would become stagnant, the market would become stagnant. And all the people wanting to mind their own business and be left alone.. would end up bored as they do the same PvE with 100% safety over and over.. until it becomes boring and something else more exciting and new on the horizon comes out to play. Happens to every other MMO..
Hasn't happened to this one.
I'll be damned if I am going to watch some of you selfish pricks try to completely flip this game into something it isn't, because you have some weird demented right to believe it should be.. when you can do what I did, and go find the game that fits the style you want.
I fully welcome more people.. more more people bring them on. But those people best get this is EVE.. it isn't like any of the other MMOs they are used, they need to accept that or find something else.
'Vets' don't dislike new people. I'd say from personal perspective.. 'vets' hate stupidity that has nothing to do with just being a fresh newb, and people that are trying to completely change the landscape of EVE, because the game doesn't suit their style.
I wish I could walk into some of your homes.. drop a deuce right on your wall, and tell you 'It looks better this way cause I said so'.
As Umega said, we don't dislike new players, I've recently taken in a small group of new players to our corp to act as mentor and give them a first step into the game. We dislike the entitlement crowd that thinks they should have the game changed because they pay a sub.
Well here's a newsflash: we pay our sub too. Think about it.
/facebrick for those times when /facepalm just isn't enough |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
It is many moons since I was last mining in hi-sec (perfect hulk pilot) but still not so long that I don't remember my first encounter with can-flippers and ore thieves. I've read the thread and I've noted the usual not-so-helpful-but-couldn't-care-less-noob comments and advice, advice which often is not so practical to a fresh player.
I remember the first encounter, and getting so mad at the audacity of that thief who suddenly went flashy-red after stealing my hard earned veldspar, that despite it being quite apparent to me visually that his ship was a hell of a lot bigger than mine, I couldn't resist firing off a volley of my civilian blasters.
I donGÇÖt think they even hit.
Warping back to the station in my pod I was ready to rage quit, but here is my point: that lesson was the first in a very long line of painful lessons on how to play Eve. If your friends felt they had to quit at the first hurdle, then perhaps it was for the best, as it was only going to go downhill from there.....
Dry your eyes, keep your chin up, and fly safe....
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
286
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 00:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:
EVE is by far not harsh and totally not PVP environment. EVE is a walk in the park with BLOBS that by mistake or intention somehow called PVP. Just take a good look around. The rest not deserve any comment.
Are you playing EVE ??? Check your start icon. You were playing something else........ He does, but he's not very good at it.
Seriously. Sure loses a LOT of Faction Fits. Check out that Loki. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1044
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 01:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
|
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
286
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 01:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:
I remember the first encounter, and getting so mad at the audacity of that thief who suddenly went flashy-red after stealing my hard earned veldspar, that despite it being quite apparent to me visually that his ship was a hell of a lot bigger than mine, I couldn't resist firing off a volley of my civilian blasters.
I donGÇÖt think they even hit.
Warping back to the station in my pod I was ready to rage quit, but here is my point: that lesson was the first in a very long line of painful lessons on how to play Eve.
ROFL. This is SOOOO my early days experience to an exact.
I had never even played an MMO. Did not realize for TWO MONTHS it was an RPG (when I discovered the Attributes.....and images of watching friends play D & D in 1978 came flooding into my mind).
If EVE had been anything like what I heard other MMO's were like, I probably would not have stayed. It is one of the few true challenges I have encountered the past decade.
Just wish it had been around 20 years ago, instead of my knocking distance from age 50. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 01:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Enough with this bullsheet crying an whining already, geez
Almost every whiner misses the point of EVE. THE CHALLENGE is the game. You think ANYTHING would matter in this game if there was no competition, immunity from attack and hand holding? Even the so called "carebear" activities would become completely meaningless. The very thing that all these entitled people cry about is what makes the system thrive. So, come one, look beyond the short term selfishness and apply some logic.
Everyone was a noob at some stage and done some stupid newbie thing. It's just some people learn from it and become better at the game while others refuse to. There are mechanics and tools in the game to minimize risk to almost negligible levels. All you have to do is use them but no, crying about it easier.
Also, all the people that "leave because of bad mechanics" would probably have left, oh maybe 2-3 month later even if they never got "omg griefed". Why? Everything beyond mining and NPCing is competitive and a challenge and they don't like this sort of thing. Either that or they continue to grind their useless activity totally oblivious of all the great things eve has to offer.
No one is against the influx of new players. I'm sure the vets welcome clued up people with open arms. It's this useless sort of, gimme now coz it's me and I'm awsum, players that no one cares about leaving. In fact, on a personal level I'm glad when they leave. I just wish they would leave quietly and not look for some sort of sympathy on the forums. |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
36
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 01:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
You see this type of **** in every game. Very good players going around totally beating up noobs. Never understood the appeal of it tbh as I would find it boring as hell On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á It was a sun |
Valentyn3
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 01:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:You see this type of **** in every game. Very good players going around totally beating up noobs. Never understood the appeal of it tbh as I would find it boring as hell
Because they couldn't fight back in middle school? "Absolutely no jabs or fast punches of any kind. Jabbers can not be on our team." |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
108
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 01:45:00 -
[45] - Quote
My favorite part was on the OP came here on the forums to help his friends. Buy complaning. And not sell some of his excessive faction crap and jump clone to them and help them at all. Hes and awesome guy and good friend obviously I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
Dirk Magnum
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
197
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 01:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Seconding any 0/10 posts made in this thread. 0/10, OP. Better players make the game better. More players just make it crowded. "For example, if you are thinking about selling a Republic Fleet Firetail as a regular Firetail, be sure that the market volume is high on regular Firetails and that there are plenty of buy/sell contracts for Republic Fleet Firetails. [...] The players most interested in Republic Fleet Firetails are going to be players flying regular ones."-á -- PB |
Myxx
Atropos Group Blood Right
487
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 02:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.
I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game. It isnt an exploit. EVE isn't for your kind, I think. |
EnslaverOfMinmatar
BRAPELILLE MACRO BOT MINERS
7
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 02:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Newbie picks up ore from the can
Don't steal stolen ore. Call CONCORD. Every EVE player must read this http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-01-07 or uninstall and DIAF |
Jack Corigan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 02:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Can flippers made me the man i am today. After i got harassed by the same guy afew times, i went and learned the mechanics so i could take him down. All games are Rock-Paper-Scissors based, you just have to learn the rules.
Eve has a delicate balance between mining, manufacturing and pvp, they all depend on each other and you cant just expect to change the game into some cheery happy mining game and expect all pvp to cease around you.
Most important of all, its a multiplayer game. If you get can flipped by 1 guy, call your corp mates. Dont want to get can flipped? Mine with other people. If there was no other people, there would be nobody to sell your ores to. |
Julyan Fox
Fission Inc. Fusion Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 02:44:00 -
[50] - Quote
Well here are a few tips since my first career was mining :
1. As long as you fly a mining frigate, do it in the starter system, Can flipping is not tolerated there, you won t stay there for long tho.
2. Once you move into a mining cruiser, go into a 0.7 system, look for a place with good ore asteroids and anchor at least 4 giant secure containers as close of each other as possible. 4 containers will last you for 1 hour of mining.
3. Once you get into a barge (retriever) station trip is a bit less of an issue, tho if you wanna save a bit of time, bookmark a safe spot just outside of the asteroid belt grid and jettison your cargo there, don t forget to rename your cans to extend the timer to 2 hours, and come with a big cargo hold indu to take it all at once.
4. Never jettison mine unless you have a friend who transfer the ore directly to his hauler or you are ready to lose your ore or gank a fleet. |
|
Scorsigaar
Myname Replacement Brokerage LLC
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 02:46:00 -
[51] - Quote
I am reminded of some bio or sig i saw a while ago, although i can't remember who it was to give proper credit.
"in other MMO's stupid people are annoying. In EVE they are a valuable resource" |
foxnod
BOAE INC GIANTSBANE.
10
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 02:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:Renarla wrote:Mine into secure cans. Problem solved.
Next! Clearly, using a secure container and then have one of the newbies do the hauling is not the way to go. Don't you realise that it's better to have 6 newbies mine rather than 5 while 1 is hauling? Teamwork? Logic? Effort? What are those filthy words! Again for the last time. Not the point of the post. Point of the post: Want more players in? Make it fun for new players. Not angry, not hard work for them. Or keep your playerbase at the very slowly rising or sometimes sharply falling levels. People play games to have fun. As far as game definition goes.
Why would we want more substandard players? We got enough of them as it is. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
276
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 02:52:00 -
[53] - Quote
Corp added to wardec list. |
Killstealing
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
367
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 03:03:00 -
[54] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:OP failed to realise (we all did in the beginning, guess what; we're still here) that EVE is a harsh PVP environment which manifests itself in many different ways. If you had several can flippers on the same day don't you think said newbies should THINK about what they're doing and what they should be doing differently? It's not very difficult to ask in rookie/help chat what can be done about it, LEARN what can be done about is and create some teamwork.
In other words, learn from it, deal with it and if you don't or can't adapt, get out.
Very creative and thinking post. Shows so much intellect. EVE is by far not harsh and totally not PVP environment. EVE is a walk in the park with BLOBS that by mistake or intention somehow called PVP. Just take a good look around. The rest not deserve any comment. blob is a buzzword |
Jafit McJafitson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
244
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 03:14:00 -
[55] - Quote
This game really needs a tutorial system that doesn't involve giving newbies a mining laser and a civilian railgun and telling them to shoot rocks and red crosses.
Instead newbies need to be taught about the nature of the game. Mostly they need to be taught that there are people around who will kill them and rob them. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
109
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 03:23:00 -
[56] - Quote
I think as a noob they should put you in a noob frigg and place you in to pvp with new players for the first 48hours. Thats it just the first 2 days all you can do is undock and fight, or get killed. THEN show players how to make isk. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
Klezmer
In Praise Of Shadows
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 03:43:00 -
[57] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:You see this type of **** in every game. Very good players going around totally beating up noobs. Never understood the appeal of it tbh as I would find it boring as hell I wouldn't exactly call can flippers good at EVE. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 04:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Corp added to wardec list.
I will enjoy that wardec dear troll. May be next time it will cause you to check further before throwing out such word. Don't cry when undocking. |
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
322
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 04:54:00 -
[59] - Quote
Thanks to this thread, I now have better places to go can flipping.
Fly Safe, Die Hard
|
Alara IonStorm
1508
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 05:12:00 -
[60] - Quote
This is the man who should decide the Future of EVE!
I remember when I first bought Super Mario Bros. I ran along and hit a Goomba then my little guy fell down. I threw my controller at the screen and never played Super Mario again. If you're Mario was Invincible all the time more people would have finished the game and would have been happy. Instead they died and quit.
If people were Invincible in EVE everyone would be happy. Infinite Lives is already a good start but you should not be killable and my ship should glow bright and sound like this.
My logical is infallible. |
|
None ofthe Above
6
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 05:23:00 -
[61] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.
I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.
Can-flipping (and possibly can-baiting) is illegal in Rookie systems.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
Most new players and perhaps even the baiters don't necessarily know this, so its not often reported. There probably should be a warning as you enter the system.
More than a few days old players are expected to learn the aggression mechanics as they move out into the rest of New Eden
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above!
|
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
381
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 05:51:00 -
[62] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Just a heads up here for the unaware. Bored Vets couldn't care less whether new players start playing EVE; in fact, best I can tell, most of them would rather they didn't. This is why people who 'carebear' or come and 'whine' on the forums get told to gtfo and go play WoW. I should have thought that was obvious.
edit: ..not suggesting i'm one who feels that way. Quite the opposite really, but I can't be bothered to argue with those that do.
That's pretty much spot-on. CCP are aware of this but at odds with what to do about it. Malcanis has written a very thorough manifesto which covers Highsec issues in detail - makes a lot of sense. Something needs to be done along the lines that Malcanis outlines, or EvE will hemorrhage new players at an increasing rate. Not a good state of affairs.
o/
The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 06:04:00 -
[63] - Quote
I don't have anything against EVE being harsh I enjoy it. For G-ds sake i live in C4. If i would not enjoy all these pvps and decs and surprises I would not be in the game by now. But total noobs should not get that harshness right off the start. It causes a lot of them to leave because they see it not as a challenge but as a flaw and cheating on developers side. It's easy to give advise and troll. How about looking at it from noobs point of view. Don't forget that flipping and ganking significantly increased since the time most of us were noobs. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4638
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 07:27:00 -
[64] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:But total noobs should not get that harshness right off the start. They don't. They start out in an area which has some very specific rules that filter out some of that harshness, and they are informed that this will end once they step outside in the cold. They also have a corp chat that is full of people who can advise them on the threats and risks and on how to minimise them.
Quote:How about looking at it from noobs point of view. Don't forget that flipping and ganking significantly increased since the time most of us were noobs. No. The constant and rather significant security buffs that have happened since I was a newbie had drastically reduced the amount of ganking going on. Back in the day, I could make good money sitting on the Jita 4-4 undock and steal ganked loot; these days, you can sit there for ages without anything happening.
I can't comment on the can flipping because it never happened to me GÇö it was too easy to avoid for me to ever do it GÇö but if it has increased, I would either attribute it to these increased security measures that drive people towards the path of least resistance or to newbies being more stupid these days and not taking the time to learn how the game works.
The best thing that could happen to new players is if space was made a whole lot less secure and if they were informed of this from the get-go so they could start acquiring the skills to survive in such an environment. It sounds like the biggest problem for new players these days is that they're coddled to the degree that they never properly learn what kind of game they're playing, and when the realisation finally hits them, they get all confused and whiney and demand that it be changed into their incorrect/incomplete image of what the game is GÇö into something it never was GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Tiberius Sunstealer
Phantom Soulreavers Axiom Solaris
100
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 07:41:00 -
[65] - Quote
I applaud CCP. They are deterring customers that would've quit later down the track and saving the customers money. I guess those people that say CCP are greedy are partially wrong. |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
882
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 07:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
It is better that can flippers can use game mechanics to bait noobs rather than go get tornado and shoot them off the sky without even giving a warning.
Get |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
554
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 08:21:00 -
[67] - Quote
can flipers arent a reall problem, one can say that ganking is becoming one |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 08:33:00 -
[68] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
It is better that can flippers can use game mechanics to bait noobs rather than go get tornado and shoot them off the sky without even giving a warning.
That's an interesting idea. Would be funny for sure. In any case I think these mechanics needs a serious rework. I could not care much about what happens in high sec but if there will be this same pattern going on without improvemet for noobs we will find eve emptier place to live in. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4639
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 08:40:00 -
[69] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:I could not care much about what happens in high sec but if there will be this same pattern going on without improvemet for noobs you will find eve emptier place to live in. That doesn't make much sense. The pattern was a constant influx of new players back when the game was harder for them GÇö that growth actually became stunted shortly after the NPE improved (but probably for different reasons). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 08:43:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Back in the day, I could make good money sitting on the Jita 4-4 undock and steal ganked loot; these days, you can sit there for ages without anything happening.
And herein lies the motivation, "for players to have an easy life."
The very idea that a few million can take down significantly more in assests so easily and with relative impunity is the reason why ganking is an issue.
When you combine that with the numerous conflict mechanics like bounty system and corporate wars that provide no real way to retaliate to such. And yet all the PvP ganker types then complain in other threads, specifically incursions that risk/reward should be an appropriate model. And yet here for an activity measured in minutes that can net them over 100's of millions in profit.
Huge double standard and weakens the risk/reward argument in my view big time. And this umbrella of relative impunity they can manipulate from themselves only makes the process more orientated for the Ganker.
People complain about the loss of insurance for a criminal activity like its an expected right for such nefarious activities in policed empire space. I personally applaud CCP for at last starting to wake up to some sensible realities about crime. And yet in esence it hasn't stopped the activity, it never really would. Losing a few mil for 100's of mill would never have even shown any significance with an insurance claim on the balance sheet. It's just thrown into arguments as a gestural change by CCP that shows a change in movement in this area.
And yet at the same time, they actually increase the capabilities of a recgnised ganking class the Dessie and introduce and new Tier 3 line of BC's with big guns designed to have the DPS to help take down stuff with alpha strikes and yet at a cheaper price than the use of BS's. I'm sure the savings and improvements here likley pay off for the small loss of an insurance claim.
All I continue to see from Gankers as a result is a one sided point of view where they try to suggest how its our fault in trying to orientate the purposes of our role and how we should operate. And yet when the shoe is on the other foot?
Another interesting argument is one of the null/high differences. Null seccers can come into High sec from their space and expect a cheap income as a rsult of this and yet of course if the same was to be said that any industrial tried to make it into HS they that would be considered suicidal based on the orientated IG mechanics. This double standard whilst maybe not apparent to most due to the "nature" of the game is still there.
Then people argue. But we need the "pinatas", EvE would be dull without it, the economy would never function, BS, BS, BS.
To be honest suicide gankers place too much emphasis and importance on themselves in this regard. It really isnt that significant. I also can't see the thrill from shooting a soft target personally, for me it would only be done as a valid war effort, as something that needed doing, not really as a fun challenge (challenge being the key word). There is also far too much "other" PvP and PvE activity that contributes to the demand curve.
Likewise what gankers fail to appreicate is how much the activity of inflicting damage on assests and industrials infrastructure has on removing supply and the industrials capabilities. Especially if they then have to spend time restoring their position. So the economy can be poorly effected as a result, with the price of items increasing or in some cases removing supply. So for the ganker themselves and for everyone else in the game, the impacts of a fwe of these lazy despots is having a negative effect on their purchasing abilities. So by removing competition in a free market your not helping in everyone's interests.
I personally can't wait to see what CCP will be introducing with the New War features and the Criminal responce features in near furture expansions. Especially if they accomodate a working player policing system into the mix. (One that currently affords benefit to the criminal, what a joke). If in the hope it can reinforce some validity to any PvP campaign so a significance of wars and PvP in this regard has more meaning. The nerfing of corp hopping, dropping, dec shielding and the addition of a working bounty system might actually give some much needed purpose back into the game, at least for empire space.
And if in the promotion of fun will at least keep the PvP orientated happy and with targets that might actually shoot back at them. Cosndier the possibility? Think of the adrenaline rush with the idea of risk pilots? Novel idea eh? In this sense CCP have the perfect opportunity to remold the culture and expectations of players and actually provide the PvP fun everyone is actually crying out for, and yet secretly worried they will end up with a huge problem of actually having to fight. |
|
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 08:58:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:I could not care much about what happens in high sec but if there will be this same pattern going on without improvemet for noobs you will find eve emptier place to live in. That doesn't make much sense. The pattern was a constant influx of new players back when the game was harder for them GÇö that growth actually became stunted shortly after the NPE improved (but probably for different reasons).
I agree on influx with you but who really calculated how many really stayed in the game from all that influx. I'm not offering to dumb down the game (look at previous pages what it took us to get to a dialogue about it from all kinds of trolls and even one wardec list promise with which I intend to deal accordingly once I can access the game = game already dumbed down to disgusting levels).
One possible reason for this issue with noobs might be differnce between what is advertised as EVE and reality. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4639
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:05:00 -
[72] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:The very idea that a few million can take down significantly more in assests so easily and with relative impunity is the reason why ganking is an issue. The very idea that you only buy marginal improvement at vastly increased costs is why EVE even works without completely screwing over the little guy.
If a few millions are allowed to take down significantly more in assets, it's because the asset-holder failed in his risk analysis and did something stupid.
Quote:And yet all the PvP ganker types then complain in other threads, specifically incursions that risk/reward should be an appropriate model. And yet here for an activity measured in minutes that can net them over 100's of millions in profit. GǪexcept that it's not measured in minutes unless you're very very lucky and come across some clueless target instantly as you undock. If the targets were smart, the activity could be measured in days or weeks. There is no double standard GÇö it's just targets not taking responsibility for making it easy for the attackers and then complaining that the attackers have it easy.
Quote:People complain about the loss of insurance for a criminal activity like its an expected right for such nefarious activities in policed empire space. Actually, no, they don't. Some people (most notably me) complain about the loss of insurance for criminal activity because in my view, that loss disincentivises criminal activity and I want to see more of it so I have more risk. The gankers themselves have pretty much universally expressed a complete indifference on the matter. Fortunately, these changes have not seemed to stopped the activity (after all, why on earth should it be stopped?), but as with the many previous security buffs, it might have put a further damper on ganking and that just makes the game dull and makes the targets more complacent and stupid. It's not a good direction.
Quote:All I continue to see from Gankers as a result is a one sided point of view where they try to suggest how its our fault in trying to orientate the purposes of our role and how we should operate. And yet when the shoe is on the other foot? When the shoe is on the other foot, the gankers adapt and overcome, unlike the whiners who demanded those changes because they were to incompetent to do so. Meanwhile, people like me GÇö people who want to be at risk from attacks out of nowhere GÇö are caught in the middle as it removes all that risk we want.
Quote:Likewise what gankers fail to appreicate is how much the activity of inflicting damage on assests and industrials infrastructure has on removing supply and the industrials capabilities. Especially if they then have to spend time restoring their position. So the economy can be poorly effected as a result, with the price of items increasing or in some cases removing supply. Actually, I think they're fully aware of it, which is why it's a part of the game that needs to be preserved and even made easier: because it allows doing significant damage to logistics chains that are hidden behind seemingly unrelated entities.
That's not a GÇ£poor effectGÇ¥ on the economy GÇö it's the driving force for the economy. Removing supply and/or increasing demand, and having prices fluctuate as a result is what keeps the market dynamic and interesting, and which makes it the largest and most vicious PvP arena in the game. A massive destruction of property across all sectors of space is needed to keep the economy healthy. Having a player-run economy would be rather pointless if players couldn't affect it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
277
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:06:00 -
[73] - Quote
Yesterday i brought in a 5-day old newb via wh into the southern coalition deployment system; he learned all sorts of **** real fast like how to get around in a wormhole, be part of a fleet, saw the EVE gate, not use autopilot in nullsec, how to warp within 100k of a station, how to warp away when an -A- carrier launches fighter drones at you, how to jump out of system when they follow you to the gate, not fit a shield booster to his punisher and how to update his clone, in that order.
it was actually kind of a blast, would import more noobs again |
Aubrey Addams
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:11:00 -
[74] - Quote
nearly every player have been can flipped once or twice. they learnt something from it, your friends still standing there after 6-7 canflipping, why? why they haven't go to a system with less traffic? there is map, dotlan, etc. there was time when i mined with hulk, filling up 4 cans, then dock, undock with my orca, and get my cans back, and no1 flipped em. and it was in very high-sec, just i searched a bit for a system with less traffic. sometimes i don't like the harhassment and cruel environment of EVE, but if they quit because of this canflipping, it is better that they leave as soon as possible, or they will whine because of 3 million more things they will face while they spending days in EVE-space. and at least, this game needs a bit of intelligence, maybe your friends lack of it :) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4639
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:12:00 -
[75] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:I agree on influx with you but who really calculated how many really stayed in the game from all that influx. About 350,000 accounts stayedGǪ
Quote:I'm not offering to dumb down the game Actually, you are. You are suggesting coddling new players when what they really needs is a healthy dose of reality at a much earlier stage so they can decide quickly whether they want to play this kind of game or not.
Quote:One possible reason for this issue with noobs might be differnce between what is advertised as EVE and reality. I don't particularly buy that. EVE is being advertised directly and indirectly as a game of massive battles and of huge scams, and then the new players get horribly offended when they get shot at and scammed.
No, the problem is that they think that an MMO is an MMO is an MMO, and assume that EVE will be just like the rest of them. The problem is that all those other MMOs use similar rhetoric in their advertising without actually offering the gameplay to support it. So they come here and expect to be held by the hand and protected and allowed to GÇ£do their thingGÇ¥, when the whole concept of EVE is pretty much the exact opposite: you make your own way though the world; you create security for yourself; and you are always affecting (and are always affected by) everyone else.
Protecting these new players is doing them a disservice GÇö they need to be educated so they can start protecting themselves.
Put another way: can flippers and gankers in highsec are not a problem; players being surprised by them and refusing to adapt to the realities of the game world is the problem. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Arcathra
Technodyne Ltd.
136
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:13:00 -
[76] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t. I understand the point you make but in case of can flippers it is very easy to work around them. Don't use jetcans, use an Orca or have a cloaked pilote ready who flips the can back and cloakes again. Of course it is a bit hard for new players but if they start to actually learn the game they will find easy solutions for their problems.
Ganking on the other hand is a different story, because it is too easy and cheap to kill expensive ships without even having a remote chance of fighting back. The mechanics of Mining Barges and Exhumers should be looked at to make the situation more fair. But there is no need to ban ganking altogether, it is an allowed playing style just as mining and mission running.
CCP don't do everything possible to keep new players out. EVE ist a bit different in terms of gameplay because it is a sandbox game that tries to give every player as much freedom as possible. It is normal that there are playing styles that conflict with each other. The ultimate challange for CCP is to find a balance between all those playing styles so that no one feels too restricted. In fact it is more the EVE community itself who seems to try everything possible to scare away new players. Many players think their playing style is the only viable one and they try to scare anyone who isn't playing as them away from the game. The problem is more about missing respect for other peoples playing styles. And that applies to both sides of the fence, carebears and gankers/hardcore PvPers alike. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
278
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:17:00 -
[77] - Quote
Anyways, the reason noobs are especially targeted in highsec is because wardec evasion is trivial thanks to corp-hopping decshields and, of course, NPC corps. New corporations don't know these tricks, making them juicy targets despite the lack of billions of mods that the wardec-safe vets fly around with impunity. Ban NPC Corps, fix wardecs.
The reason suicide ganking happens is because the ganked pilot is usually a lazy idiot unwilling to use a blockade runner or make multiple trips for his billions in space loot, or a Hulkaddon is underway. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:31:00 -
[78] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:The very idea that a few million can take down significantly more in assests so easily and with relative impunity is the reason why ganking is an issue. The very idea that you only buy marginal improvement at vastly increased costs is why EVE even works without completely screwing over the little guy. If a few millions are allowed to take down significantly more in assets, it's because the asset-holder failed in his risk analysis and did something stupid.
No, the assest holder might have been trying to maximise his role for purpose. And regardless my argument still holds true, otherwise why do Gankers do it? Why do they exclaim huge profits. When destoryers can take down anything in a manner of numbers its really just a numbers game even though other ships might be better suited, but then its a profit caluclation for doing it for some. Shall we do the maths exercise?
Do you really want to be that bored? You also forgetting cargo or distinctive mods which is usually the pretty shiney stuff gankers go for. Which also makes the scouting easier since they dont have to be bothered calculating the total net gains on complicated overall ships fits etc. I'm sure they will try to be picky in this regard to skew things as much towards certainty.
Quote:Quote:And yet all the PvP ganker types then complain in other threads, specifically incursions that risk/reward should be an appropriate model. And yet here for an activity measured in minutes that can net them over 100's of millions in profit. GǪexcept that it's not measured in minutes unless you're very very lucky and come across some clueless target instantly as you undock. If the targets were smart, the activity could be measured in days or weeks. There is no double standard GÇö it's just targets not taking responsibility for making it easy for the attackers and then complaining that the attackers have it easy.
Pretty sure gankers make life easier for themselves, else why concentrate at the trade hubs where activity is rife? Why hang out on the doorstep of Jita 4 -4 or Emporer family in Amarr? Why do we get warnings of being carefull in the Jita/Amarr trade pire. You yourself have been seen on numerous occasions of quoting that the gankers go where the targets are. Scouting is minimsed to look for high paying cargo and shiney mods to make life easier. Whilst I'm not saying there isnt some scouting involved when you compare the time to what the industrial might have to do to generate the cargo and infrastructure that is the target in an effectively competative manner it simply doesn't equate on an equal footing. Otherwise the actual gank is measured in a matter of seconds given Concords responce times. And I guess a few minutes of selling of the loot, maybe make it 15 - 20 mins, so laborious.
tbc .... |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
12
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:33:00 -
[79] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:All noobs can do effectively is "carebear".
Sing that to the goons or test who regularly take new players straight to 0.0
Truth be told, a new can be doing pvp in null in about a day if they know the right people. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:33:00 -
[80] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:People complain about the loss of insurance for a criminal activity like its an expected right for such nefarious activities in policed empire space. Actually, no, they don't. Some people (most notably me) complain about the loss of insurance for criminal activity because in my view, that loss disincentivises criminal activity and I want to see more of it so I have more risk. The gankers themselves have pretty much universally expressed a complete indifference on the matter. Fortunately, these changes have not seemed to stopped the activity (after all, why on earth should it be stopped?), but as with the many previous security buffs, it might have put a further damper on ganking and that just makes the game dull and makes the targets more complacent and stupid. It's not a good direction.
Look further back in this thread, ganker insurance whiner. Glad you agree though. Also read rest of post about trying to promote risk.
Also not trying to irradicate Ganking, trying to see some equality in the argument. Mostly is dimissed due to selfish interest.
Quote:Quote:All I continue to see from Gankers as a result is a one sided point of view where they try to suggest how its our fault in trying to orientate the purposes of our role and how we should operate. And yet when the shoe is on the other foot? When the shoe is on the other foot, the gankers adapt and overcome, unlike the whiners who demanded those changes because they were to incompetent to do so. Meanwhile, people like me GÇö people who want to be at risk from attacks out of nowhere GÇö are caught in the middle as it removes all that risk we want.
Wrong, it is always the targets fault. Look at the history of anyone trying to argue for a change to ganking and the inane hostile reaction to things. And you say adaptability. At the end of the day, you can help reduce the impcat but its not going to stop it. Nor am I advocating for a complete removal. But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game.
I say you need to review your own obstinace to these issues when it comes to comprimise and adapatability. I wont accept the roll over and do what I say role sorry.
tbc ........ |
|
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:41:00 -
[81] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:Likewise what gankers fail to appreicate is how much the activity of inflicting damage on assests and industrials infrastructure has on removing supply and the industrials capabilities. Especially if they then have to spend time restoring their position. So the economy can be poorly effected as a result, with the price of items increasing or in some cases removing supply. Actually, I think they're fully aware of it, which is why it's a part of the game that needs to be preserved and even made easier: because it allows doing significant damage to logistics chains that are hidden behind seemingly unrelated entities.
Would you say that if more supply was available it would increase trading competition?
Would you say that the aspect of suicide ganking you seem to profit from both as a "vulture" looter and a station trader bias your opinion?
Quote:That's not a GÇ£poor effectGÇ¥ on the economy GÇö it's the driving force for the economy. Removing supply and/or increasing demand, and having prices fluctuate as a result is what keeps the market dynamic and interesting, and which makes it the largest and most vicious PvP arena in the game. A massive destruction of property across all sectors of space is needed to keep the economy healthy. Having a player-run economy would be rather pointless if players couldn't affect it.
Destruction is helpful it does generate demand, doesn't have to suicide ganking and again I beleive there is more significant chaos that is contributing to these things in other PvP arenas alone. And I'm advocating change the conflict systems to help promote this destruction.
The idea that it doesn't remove competition however is not. You are simply representing a one sided argument to this. My beleif due to selfish interests as a station trader and wanting to remove competition from your point of view. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
278
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:43:00 -
[82] - Quote
Quote:But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game. Anyone who attacks a industrial ship unprovoked in highsec has a 100% chance of death. That's pretty well defended. |
Irumani
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:50:00 -
[83] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Alexandra Delarge wrote:Terrible CEOs ruin the experience of new players. Join a better corp. Terrible mechanics ruin the experience of new players. Join a better game.
Terrible players ruin the experience of themselves. There's no cure for that. You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.
- CCP Wrangler |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:53:00 -
[84] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Quote:But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game. Anyone who attacks a industrial ship unprovoked in highsec has a 100% chance of death. That's pretty well defended.
Oh dear, I've been overcome by semantics ........ what an idiot. Contribute much?
Maybe try the "dont let forum alt post line" seeing as you don't agree with me.
Anyone who does "Suicide" ganking should be pretty aware of its outcome and how to do it properly if they want to benefit.
Irrespective of that some simply do it out of spite and shiggles and not for profit. So it seems they don't really care. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2706
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:56:00 -
[85] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Just a heads up here for the unaware. Bored Vets couldn't care less whether new players start playing EVE; in fact, best I can tell, most of them would rather they didn't. This is why people who 'carebear' or come and 'whine' on the forums get told to gtfo and go play WoW. I should have thought that was obvious.
edit: ..not suggesting i'm one who feels that way. Quite the opposite really, but I can't be bothered to argue with those that do. That's pretty much spot-on. CCP are aware of this but at odds with what to do about it. Malcanis has written a very thorough manifesto which covers Highsec issues in detail - makes a lot of sense. Something needs to be done along the lines that Malcanis outlines, or EvE will hemorrhage new players at an increasing rate. Not a good state of affairs. o/
It's nice of you to mention my manifesto, but it should be noted that there's nothing whatsoever in it about providing additional protection for people who disregard warning messages. It does have scope for adding more warnings, though. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
278
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:02:00 -
[86] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Quote:But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game. Anyone who attacks a industrial ship unprovoked in highsec has a 100% chance of death. That's pretty well defended. Oh dear, I've been overcome by semantics ........ what an idiot. Contribute much? Maybe try the "dont let forum alt post line" seeing as you don't agree with me. Anyone who does " Suicide" ganking should be pretty aware of its outcome and how to do it properly if they want to benefit. Irrespective of that some simply do it out of spite and shiggles and not for profit. So it seems they don't really care. CSM forums are reserved for serious discussion so your cowardly alt posting about your poorly reasoned misconceptions on basic concepts of EVE has no place there. If the author of the opinion needs to make forum alts rather then stand behind their beliefs (because deep down they have no faith in what they're presenting and/or they fear space-pixel consequences), then those beliefs certainly aren't worth sharing in a serious discussion. That's what General Discussion is for.
Industrials/Orcas/freighters in highsec enjoy the greatest protection in the game: 100% chance of death for anyone who breathes at them. Not even a Titan can claim that. If you manage to mess that up anyway and die because you turned your ship into a giant pinata and blundered blindly through bottleneck systems, that says more about you then the game mechanics.
Again, the actual problem is that, once learned, nearly every form of PvP in highsec besides suicide ganks is easy to avoid (and even suicide ganks aren't very difficult), meaning noobs who don't know how to evade wardecs and canflip bait are the ones who get preyed upon instead of the NPC corp guy missioning solo in a 6 bil BS |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4644
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:03:00 -
[87] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:No, the assest holder might have been trying to maximise his role for purpose. And regardless my argument still holds true, otherwise why do Gankers do it? Why do they exclaim huge profits. Because it is fun? And your argument doesn't really hold true because it assumes a kind of balance that simply doesn't exist in EVE: bigger isn't better; more expensive isn't more powerful; marginal improvement comes at a huge cost. Again, the fact that you can nuke huge assets with a very small investment is very deliberate part of the balance GÇö it means you have to actually play (a little) smart rather than just buy your way out of trouble.
Oh, and the asset holder trying to GÇ£maximise his role for purposeGÇ¥ is pretty much the same thing as him failing his risk analysis. In almost all cases, his maximisation effort stops at GÇ£cramming the maximum amount of crap into the shipGÇ¥ without doing the second, far more important part: GÇ¥GǪthat the ship can safely handle without turning into a loot pi+¦ataGÇ¥.
Quote:You also forgetting cargo or distinctive mods which is usually the pretty shiney stuff gankers go for. No, I'm not. I'm saying that if you load your ship up with shiny stuff and don't adopt strategies to protect that stuff, you are failing your risk analysis, so it is hardly surprising (and most certainly not an issue) if someone comes along and robs you.
Quote:Pretty sure gankers make life easier for themselves, else why concentrate at the trade hubs where activity is rife? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that the targets are the ones making things easy for the attackers, when they could equally well make it hard for them. I'm also saying that, in spite of this, ganks are rather rare these days: as mentioned elsehwere, you could make a pretty penny stealing gank loot back in the day because it happened with some regularity GÇö these days, it's not worth the (significant) waiting time.
Quote:Also not trying to irradicate Ganking, trying to see some equality in the argument. Problem is: stating that ganking is a problem is not an attempt at seeing equality GÇö it's demanding further inequality in favour of the victims based on absolutely nothing in the way of a rational argument. The actual problem is that the victims refuse to take the matter of security into their own hands and then blame everything and everyone but themselves for that failure. If actual equality was the goal, then ganking would be significanly buffedGǪ and I get the feeling that this isn't the goal for the gank whiners.
Quote:Wrong, it is always the targets fault. EhmGǪ make up your mind? You say that I'm wrong and then you say the exact same thing I'm saying. So which one is it? And I wrong or is it the target's fault? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4644
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:03:00 -
[88] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Look at the history of anyone trying to argue for a change to ganking and the inane hostile reaction to things. And you say adaptability. Yes. Because no matter how much things change, the gankers have always adapted. No matter how much things change, the targets fail to adapt (and their failure is the driving force behind the change). The hostile reactions come from the ignorance of the targets about the options available to them, and how this ignorance makes them claim the most outrageously silly things without having anything to back it up.
Things like GÇ£ganking is a problemGÇ¥.
The hostile reaction is to their demanding change for no adequately explained reason.
Quote:But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game. Nice straw man.
Quote:Would you say that if more supply was available it would increase trading competition? I would say that more supply without any demand would make industrialists' lives more dull and drastically reduce their income.
Quote:Would you say that the aspect of suicide ganking you seem to profit from both as a "vulture" looter and a station trader bias your opinion? Mu.
Quote:Destruction is helpful it does generate demand, doesn't have to suicide ganking It does as long as people can hide their activities behind layers of anonymity and protection from more organised attacks. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
1314
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:09:00 -
[89] - Quote
I know new players who started doing exactly that.
Can flipping and ganking.
We need more of these players and less carebears. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:11:00 -
[90] - Quote
Whats wrong Tippia, lots of unanswered questions there with nice little avoidance channels.
Struck a nerve?
If your going to avoid the questions, pointless discussing. Adaptation perhaps, to denial as usual. |
|
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
208
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:14:00 -
[91] - Quote
So, OP...How's all that GTC-financed ISK working out for you?
/Me giggles....Locator agent running
Is urp-splosion tyme naow? I are kyute kitten! I are in ur mishun! Redoosin' teh lag by ninja'ing ur wrekz! (CCP: Make wrecks probable, and after 30min., tractorable.) |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
294
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:16:00 -
[92] - Quote
This old gem once again... Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4645
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:19:00 -
[93] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Whats wrong Tippia, lots of unanswered questions there with nice little avoidance channels.
Struck a nerve? No. You struck a whole lot of nothing with your fallacies and faulty suppositions. Just because you didn't like the answers doesn't mean the questions are unanswered or avoided.
If you simply don't understand the answers, just say so. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Cannibal Kane
Priest of New Eden Stay Calm Don't Panic
227
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:22:00 -
[94] - Quote
I think all the OP did was give people a target for a wardec.
On another note... I do alot of flipping. Mostly other can flippers cans since they actually commit to fights and popping a Heavy Assualt ships with t1 Cruiser is always exciting.
If I flip a newbie and he actually comes at me with a ship. I give him 10mil for actually having the guts to engage.
I hate that word noob... newbie is better. Newbie is new... noob is a moron that has played for 4 years and still loose his shiny **** doing stupid things.
"Demoralize the Enemy from within by Surprise, Terror, Sabotage, Assassination. This method of Guarilla Warfare is the only Method of Warfare for me"
|
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:24:00 -
[95] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: CSM forums are reserved for serious discussion so your cowardly alt posting about your poorly reasoned misconceptions on basic concepts of EVE has no place there. If the author of the opinion needs to make forum alts rather then stand behind their beliefs (because deep down they have no faith in what they're presenting and/or they fear space-pixel consequences), then those beliefs certainly aren't worth sharing in a serious discussion. That's what General Discussion is for.
Well we both know then that the reason why I use a forum alt then is to avoid the meta gaming malicious strikes due to posting on the forum then don't we.
This is usually because "knuckle scraping" types use the opportunity to grief in this way to demonstrate their point as opposed to debate. So yes, I'm intelligently avoiding that hassle. See above for case and point (though might be humour of course).
If the General discussion could afford a serious discussion with an expectation of "mature" participation, it might not be an issue and your point might be valid. Unfortunatley its not, and your naive propoganda campaign is therefore not helpfull. Especially when you tend to simply use it purely for a spam alternative to points you don't like.
Also, if the CSM can avoid having to declare names in their minutes to avoid drama, I don't see why the forums should not be afforded a similar purpose. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:27:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Whats wrong Tippia, lots of unanswered questions there with nice little avoidance channels.
Struck a nerve? No. You struck a whole lot of nothing with your fallacies and faulty suppositions. Just because you didn't like the answers doesn't mean the questions are unanswered or avoided. If you simply don't understand the answers, just say so.
Make your answers more relevant and actually answer them perhaps?
I'm not going to waste my time pandering to your usual around the houses, water torture process of avoidance. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4645
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:28:00 -
[97] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Make your answers more relevant and actually answer them perhaps? Done. If you don't understand the answers, just say so, and ask for clarification. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:40:00 -
[98] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Again, the actual problem is that, once learned, nearly every form of PvP in highsec besides suicide ganks is easy to avoid (and even suicide ganks aren't very difficult), meaning noobs who don't know how to evade wardecs and canflip bait are the ones who get preyed upon instead of the NPC corp guy missioning solo in a 6 bil BS. Additionally, making ships more gankable, thanks to risk/reward, coerces carebears to scale back on the amount of pimping out they can do n their PvE machine, putting them on a more even playing field with newer players.
K, so we both know you like easier targets now and the affinity for the challanging noobs, no suprises there then. |
Jess Maine
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:41:00 -
[99] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:Renarla wrote:Mine into secure cans. Problem solved.
Next! Clearly, using a secure container and then have one of the newbies do the hauling is not the way to go. Don't you realise that it's better to have 6 newbies mine rather than 5 while 1 is hauling? Teamwork? Logic? Effort? What are those filthy words! Again for the last time. Not the point of the post. Point of the post: Want more players in? Make it fun for new players. Not angry, not hard work for them. Or keep your playerbase at the very slowly rising or sometimes sharply falling levels. People play games to have fun. As far as game definition goes.
And I'm currently happy with both the population and level of enjoyment, and I'm down in Nullsec which is plenty more dangerous than Hi-sec. We don't want people like you numbing this game down for the new generation because you think its the fun and right thing to do - it isn't. Stop complaining and find solutions to your own problems instead of whining about ship losses that could EASILY be avoided. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:42:00 -
[100] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Make your answers more relevant and actually answer them perhaps? Done. If you don't understand the answers, just say so, and ask for clarification.
I do undertsand the answers, they aren't relevant and simply avoidance techniques, repeat ad infinitum Tippia water toruture process TM count incremented by 1.
|
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
282
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:44:00 -
[101] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Again, the actual problem is that, once learned, nearly every form of PvP in highsec besides suicide ganks is easy to avoid (and even suicide ganks aren't very difficult), meaning noobs who don't know how to evade wardecs and canflip bait are the ones who get preyed upon instead of the NPC corp guy missioning solo in a 6 bil BS. Additionally, making ships more gankable, thanks to risk/reward, coerces carebears to scale back on the amount of pimping out they can do n their PvE machine, putting them on a more even playing field with newer players.
K, so we both know you like easier targets now and the affinity for the challanging noobs, no suprises there then. that was established when I started replying to your posts. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4649
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:44:00 -
[102] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:I do undertsand the answers No, you don't, or you would actually try to argue the points being made rather than trying this silly GÇ£oh, but you didn't answerGÇ¥ evasion.
If you don't understand the answers (including if you don't understand the relevance), just say so, and ask for clarification.
Why is it so hard for you to point out any actual, specific problems with my answers? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 10:59:00 -
[103] - Quote
I dont like getting wet, I guess.
Tippia wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Look at the history of anyone trying to argue for a change to ganking and the inane hostile reaction to things. And you say adaptability. Yes. Because no matter how much things change, the gankers have always adapted. No matter how much things change, the targets fail to adapt (and their failure is the driving force behind the change). The hostile reactions come from the ignorance of the targets about the options available to them, and how this ignorance makes them claim the most outrageously silly things without having anything to back it up. Things like GÇ£ganking is a problemGÇ¥. The hostile reaction is to their demanding change for no adequately explained reason.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12291174 (Likley 10:1 ratio of assest discrepancy, with attempts to improve defence)
Imo, hulk has attempted to compromise for defence, attackers significantly undervalued by comparison.
Quote:Quote:But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game. Nice straw man.
You havent answered the question. Avoidance.
tbc .... |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:00:00 -
[104] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:Would you say that if more supply was available it would increase trading competition? I would say that more supply without any demand would make industrialists' lives more dull and drastically reduce their income.
Without supply there would be no competition, without demand there would be no supply. Its a balance. You only are arguing from one side. Try this rather than avoiding with semantics. Re-read the question and answer fairly as possible with a yes no answer?
Since, if on an existing trading situation more supply would increase competition? I understand its sepculative as its up to individuals but the normality is for competing trade to acctively out bid each other in the quest for buyers. Thus with more supply being introduced it increases competition. I have a station trader alt myself and I know how frustrating it can be to try to keep up with other peoples interests in trade hubs.
But my opinion of your expertise in economics will go down if you say no to this one. The simplest way of looking at it is that if it is a monopoly the trader can command what price they like assuming demand.
Quote:Quote:Would you say that the aspect of suicide ganking you seem to profit from both as a "vulture" looter and a station trader bias your opinion? Mu.
Scared of your self acclaimed status? And doesnt answer the question.
tbc .. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:01:00 -
[105] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:Destruction is helpful it does generate demand, doesn't have to suicide ganking It does as long as people can hide their activities behind layers of anonymity and protection from more organised attacks.
Hence why I'd advocated in my original post the importance to ensure that the conflict mechanics can improve those methods. Quoting out of context much, or as usual miss representing posts with only part quotes? |
T'Laar Bok
45
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:23:00 -
[106] - Quote
When I started playing Eve it wasn't unusual for me to have 12 full cans out, rotating them as they expired before hauling them back to staton. Sometimes I'd lose ore to other players, sometimes I didn't.
Not sure where I'm going with this, just thought I'd share.
Except to say to your friends to have patients and stick with it, you'll eventually welcome the detractions.
Amphetimines are your friend. |
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
1316
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:23:00 -
[107] - Quote
I partly like this conversation, although i think you should both scratch it all and restart by rephrasing what you were talking about, simply to remove the "you didn't answer my questions".
Why restart ? Because it's only getting deeper and deeper, more and more complicated, so a fresh start via simple means is needed. That is ... if anybody here actually WANTS to talk about it, instead of just throwing opinions at one another.
That said ... i believe you guys are wasting your time. Get abstract, reduce the information of what's going on and who's participating and then check the options.
There's no way to educate people by force. Those who want to be educated, will get educated. Those who don't ... won't. That's a fact and we can split most players into these two categories.
-> One can't force people into getting smarter.
I've met quite a few people who've spent their first weeks only reading up, but there seem to be way more people not doing that ... and they can't be forced to do it.
There are those who run the tutorials (i never did), but these can't do very much either, because there's far more knowledge about EvE out there than could be offered by any tutorials ever.
As Tippia said, there's a lack of responsibility ... and it's the lack of acknowledging that ... ... "it's my fault if i die, i just don't know that i don't have enough information at hand to stay alive" ... ... which can be reduced to "it's my fault", which is the hardest part for most of the morons out there.
Hence, the only thing that can be done is to try and weed out all those who don't "fit" into EvE ... ... preferably as soon as possible ... to actually improve the overall experience for everybody.
Accepting the people who don't "get" the game only makes the game worse. It fills the forums up with more threads about whining people who can't deal with (eve) reality ... ... such as incursion-whiners whining about people who legitimately enter it and kill the mom as soon as it pops up ... ... or people whining about (ninja) salvagers "stealing" their salvage ... hauler pilots whining about getting popped ... ... or people whining about afk-cloakers ... etc etc etc ...
Wow, this list really keeps on going ........
Now, those who come up with "don't force onto others how you play your game" or "i play the way i want to" ... Well ... you may play as you want, but the rules of the game are clearly stated and YOU have to obey them ! Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:31:00 -
[108] - Quote
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:So, OP...How's all that GTC-financed ISK working out for you? /Me giggles....Locator agent running Is urp-splosion tyme naow?
Don't **** your pants when your locator finds. You funding your pvps with gtcs? Very bad habit. You know how to scan at all? Or farm sites? Go to school boy. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4650
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:33:00 -
[109] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12291174 (Likley 10:1 ratio of assest discrepancy, with attempts to improve defence)
Imo, hulk has attempted to compromise for defence, attackers significantly undervalued by comparison. So? Why is that a problem? Also, no. That was a very poor fit for defence.
Quote:You havent answered the question. Avoidance. GǪexcept that it wasn't a question GÇö it was a statement trying to impose a position on me that I have never taken. I didn't provide an answer GÇö I provided a rebuttal, explaining that your statement was a straw man.
Quote:Without supply there would be no competition, without demand there would be no supply. Its a balance. You only are arguing from one side. Try this rather than avoiding with semantics. Re-read the question and answer fairly as possible with a yes no answer? It's not so much a balance as a dynamic system that seeks an equilibrium. If it becomes static, it becomes boring, and more to the point: if the supply vastly outpaces the demand, it just hurts the industrialists. Of course I'm only arguing from one side: mine. The answer cannot be made with a simple yes or no because of the dynamics. Most likely, no, it wouldn't GÇö the margins would be nil and there is no profit in trying to compete over them. It would just stack up in ever-expanding backlog sell orders that never get fulfilled. That is not competition GÇö that's just stagnation. We've seen this happen before and it didn't generate any competition then either.
Also, going by the way many carbears argue, there would most certainly be a supply without a demand GÇö just look at all the demands for buffed mining ability.
Quote:Scared of your self acclaimed status? And doesnt answer the question. It fully answers the question: your question rests on faulty suppositions and thus cannot be answered meaningfully.
Have you stopped beating your wife yet (Y/N)?
Loaded question, false dichotomy, (another) straw man, causal oversimplification, beggin the questionGǪ pick your fallacy.
Quote:Quoting out of context much, or as usual miss representing posts with only part quotes? The context is that you're trying to infer that ganking is harmful. I'm rejecting that supposition and pointing out that, the way the EVE economy works, destruction of assets is pretty much always beneficial and that ganking in particular is pretty much required due to the kind of destruction it enables. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
baltec1
514
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:44:00 -
[110] - Quote
I have been playing for years and had one gank attempt upon one of my industry ships. I looted his stuff and sld it in jita with the rest of my cargo.
Industrial ships a VERY easy to tank to survive a gank. |
|
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
1317
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:46:00 -
[111] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I have been playing for years and had one gank attempt upon one of my industry ships. I looted his stuff and sld it in jita with the rest of my cargo.
Industrial ships a VERY easy to tank to survive a gank.
I see a guy who tries to use his brains to survive and who acknowledges that he CAN die, but he can TRY to avoid it ... and i see people coming telling him that he's wrong, simply because they don't have the information that he has. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:48:00 -
[112] - Quote
I'm simply going to have to disagree with your opinion on the matter as I feel we are simply diometrically opposed on two ends of a valid spectrum, Tippia.
All I see is you arguing your case with extremes selfishly in a deperate attempt to maintain any position in game. And I'm sorry I've lost quite a bit of respect for your opinion as a result.
And whilst I might be championing the "industrial/trader" case, freely admit it. But I'm also trying to advocate PvP improvements and fun here for all for non-selfish reasons. There is no call for removal of mechanics, I'm not trying to prevent something exclusively, no. In essence I'm trying to make a compromise as usual.
Does this mean that some "carebear" types might provide challenging views of "dumbing" the game down to the point of pointlesness asking for "cotton wool" mechanics? Yes, I've seen many an example of this and I also don't like the immunity approach.
But my view is there is simply too much in favour of criminal "suicide ganking" with gaming mechanics and just how it works. And as such more consequential outcomes and difficulty needs to be applied to the ganking process. Wether you like that view or not will not change the opinion, as I have explained.
Maybe I should just change my entire view on the subject and start being obstinatley self interested also and ask for complete immunity in High sec and stuff the EvE gaming community interests, seems to be the accepted "status quo". Lets just let EvE go to the wall, who cares. |
baltec1
516
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 11:53:00 -
[113] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:I'm simply going to have to disagree with your opinion on the matter as I feel we are simply diometrically opposed on two ends of a valid spectrum, Tippia.
All I see is you arguing your case with extremes selfishly in a deperate attempt to maintain any position in game. And I'm sorry I've lost quite a bit of respect for your opinion as a result.
And whilst I might be championing the "industrial/trader" case, freely admit it. But I'm also trying to advocate PvP improvements and fun here for all for non-selfish reasons. There is no call for removal of mechanics, I'm not trying to prevent something exclusively, no. In essence I'm trying to make a compromise as usual.
Does this mean that some "carebear" types might provide challenging views of "dumbing" the game down to the point of pointlesness asking for "cotton wool" mechanics? Yes, I've seen many an example of this and I also don't like the immunity approach.
But my view is there is simply too much in favour of criminal "suicide ganking" with gaming mechanics and just how it works. And as such more consequential outcomes and difficulty needs to be applied to the ganking process. Wether you like that view or not will not change the opinion, as I have explained.
Maybe I should just change my entire view on the subject and start being obstinatley self interested also and ask for complete immunity in High sec and stuff the EvE gaming community interests, seems to be the accepted "status quo". Lets just let EvE go to the wall, who cares.
There is not an imbalance in favor of gankers. There are more than enough tools to stop yourself from getting ganked, the fact that people chose not to use them is not an argument for further nerfs to pirates. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:00:00 -
[114] - Quote
Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2708
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:00:00 -
[115] - Quote
It seems like you're putting more effort into complaining than it would take to actually put some tank on your haulers, and maybe use a Blockade Runner, Orca or Freighter to move the high-value stuff, and fly defensively.
I regularly move high value cargoes through hi-sec, and I have never, ever been ganked in hi-sec, not even once in over 5 years. For the simple reason that when I'm carrying said high value cargo, I fly in exactly the same way as I do in 0.0 or lo-sec: I assume everyone in local is hostile unless I know for sure they aren't, and will, given the chance, kill me and take my stuff. I fly, fit and choose my ships accordingly.
So far it has worked flawlessly.
I've had some pretty hairy escapes, like when I didn't notice that we had a wardec, and I jumped an Iteron V full of T2 ships and mods into a system with 5 WTs in, but even then I managed to get my ship and cargo out intact.
Perhaps you should try this method before dismissing it out of hand. It really does have its charms: desperately maneuvering a cloaked Ity V slowly further and further from the gate while 5 hostiles were trying to decloak me, and trying to work out in my head "how far away from a Taranis does a cloaked, fully expanded iteron have to be before it's safe to decloak and warp?" was an incredibly tense and thrilling experience that lasted what seemed like hours. I didn't get any KMs from it, but in a sense you could say I won a 1v5, and afterwards I was pretty wrung out, let me tell you!
PS The answer is 80Km. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
baltec1
516
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:01:00 -
[116] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you.
90% of this thread is everyone telling you you are wrong. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2708
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:01:00 -
[117] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you.
This exact same thread was alive and well as far back as 2007 to my certain memory, and in all likelihood, much further back. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:02:00 -
[118] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: There is not an imbalance in favor of gankers. There are more than enough tools to stop yourself from getting ganked, the fact that people chose not to use them is not an argument for further nerfs to pirates.
When hulks cannot get consistantly get knocked out of the sky from a handfull of destroyers regardless of whatever shield fits they put on them and at significantly less assest cost to themselves I will beleive you. Until then sorry, just another dont touch my area of the game, don't care about you comment.
Bring on a working bounty system, bring on corrective war changes, bring back the fun. Pinata bashing doesnt interest me or the losers who participate in it. |
Sasha Azala
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:02:00 -
[119] - Quote
Simple effective way to avoid can flipping is to not use cans. Worked for me in the past.
If people insist on solo mining using cans then make sure it's in a quiet system. Problem with quiet systems though is the price you will get for the ore is lower than busier systems. Might be better to just keep hauling it back to the station each time.
Alternatively, a second account, one hauling one mining.
Is it really putting people off of the game? I don't see any real evidence of this.
I've just got back yesterday, from about 2 months of playing Skyrim fairly solidly, but Skyrim just does not quite deliver what I Iook for in a game.
On returning last evening (GMT) I was surprised to see that the online account figure was over 50,000. So again it does not seem to be putting people off.
As long as the CCP don't jump on the same ban wagon that most MMOs have done, then it's a game I'm likely to return to if I do leave for awhile.
Main thing I see as putting any new players off, is the amount of time it takes to train up to do something more useful. Of course you could increase your training by buying and selling PLEX then buy some +4 implants. But most people new won't want to buy PLEX as they've not decided if they like the game enough by then.
Before anyone says 'post with your main' this is my main as from last evening. |
Shirah Yuri
Allied Assault Universal Constant Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:04:00 -
[120] - Quote
I consider myself very much an industrialist, miner and trader.
This could imply that I was seeing can-flippers and gankers in a bad light. But, to put it simple, I am not. Can-flippers distort the business of solo miners and kill the ships of stupid and/or too daring solo miners. For any sane miner, this serves as incentive to team up with others. Have one player act as a hauler and other players do the mining work. What's wrong with that?
Gankers shoot down careless traders and miners. Yes, I've had my losses, too, and I've learned from them. But: traders shot down means less competition for me as a trader. And ships being destroyed... yay for the industy. And, to be honest, it's quite an adrenaline surge to fly with a transport carrying a billion isk in cargo. I wouldn't want to miss that :)
As the ferengi put it nicely:
- Peace is good for profit. - War is good for profit.
You just gotta work with that muscle between your ears. |
|
Argyle Jones
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:06:00 -
[121] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:All noobs can do effectively is "carebear". You cant take them to W-Space or Null right away. They need skill books, they want to stay close to their starting locations, they want to wander around. And they not used to idea that ship is expendable. And they dont like that idea. It takes some time for them to get used to it and gain experience. All what flippers and gankers effectively do is making people angry and out of the game.
I agree that less options are open to you as a new player, but what you're saying is simply not true. You can PVP effectively after a few days of skill-training, tackling in a frigate or providing some wholesome DPS in a destroyer class vessel.
Granted A frigate or a destroyer is no use in solo PVP against a veteran player, but if you're in a corporate fleet and you have several ships, that frigate is immensely useful. The key thing is to join a decent player run corporation and learn the ropes from someone with experience. They could tell you what to do to defend yourself. They'd have a designated hauler to keep the jet-cans relatively empty and the loss from can flippers to a minimum and they would never be mining in an area with 7 can flippers to begin with.
Instead of complaining that CCP is not molding their 9 year old game to exactly the way you want to play it you should consider learning the best way to play the game as it is.
/Yargle
|
baltec1
516
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:07:00 -
[122] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:baltec1 wrote: There is not an imbalance in favor of gankers. There are more than enough tools to stop yourself from getting ganked, the fact that people chose not to use them is not an argument for further nerfs to pirates.
When hulks cannot get consistantly get knocked out of the sky from a handfull of destroyers regardless of whatever shield fits they put on them and at significantly less assest cost to themselves I will beleive you. Until then sorry, just another dont touch my area of the game, don't care about you comment. Bring on a working bounty system, bring on corrective war changes, bring back the fun. Pinata bashing doesnt interest me or the losers who participate in it.
Hulks can easily tank a gank brutix all the way up to an alpha tempest. |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
70
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:13:00 -
[123] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you.
Not pure fact as this thread has only continued because players who appreciate the different facets of the game are telling you that you're incorrect. I have an industrial character on my 2nd account and he's only been ganked when I got careless. If you're so concerned about new players why not do what I'm doing and take a few under your wing and show them the ropes, they actually learn from your experience then. That's a far better way to keep players in the game than wrapping them in cotton wool. in other MMO's stupid people are annoying. In EVE they are a valuable resource /facebrick for those times when /facepalm just isn't enough
|
Nex apparatu5
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
154
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:16:00 -
[124] - Quote
I got flipped and ganked as a wee noob. It just made me want to become a ganker, because mining was so boring and that one cane killed everyone by itself..
To this day, I try to return that favor by ganking miners in hisec. |
Matalok
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:18:00 -
[125] - Quote
Argyle Jones wrote:I agree that less options are open to you as a new player, but what you're saying is simply not true. You can PVP effectively after a few days of skill-training, tackling in a frigate or providing some wholesome DPS in a destroyer class vessel.
As a founding member of a corporation born on this idea, anyone who says newbies can't join in PvP or go into nullsec are elitist idiots. A newbro in a Rifter can really ruin someone's day given the opportunity. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4650
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:21:00 -
[126] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:I'm simply going to have to disagree with your opinion on the matter as I feel we are simply diometrically opposed on two ends of a valid spectrum, Tippia. Fair enough.
Quote:All I see is you arguing your case with extremes selfishly in a deperate attempt to maintain any position in game. And I'm sorry I've lost quite a bit of respect for your opinion as a result. So what is this position I'm supposedly trying to maintain?
Quote:There is no call for removal of mechanics, I'm not trying to prevent something exclusively, no. In essence I'm trying to make a compromise as usual. See, now you're just bein na+»ve. There are plenty of calls for the removao of mechanics and that's the whole problem: there is no room for compromise withthe safety extremists. Even for the nore noderate, the question remains: why compromise? Why is any change needed at all? What is the problem?
Quote:But my view is there is simply too much in favour of criminal "suicide ganking" with gaming mechanics and just how it works. And as such more consequential outcomes and difficulty needs to be applied to the ganking process. GǪand this is where the real difference lies. In my view, there is nothing favouring the criminals except the victims' complete and unrelenting refusal to take any responsibility whatsoever for the situations that arise. Evading the criminals is trivially easy already and it will not matter one whit how many more tools become available to the victims GÇö they refuse to use the ones that already exist; adding more just gives them more things to refuse.
Quote:Maybe I should just change my entire view on the subject and start being obstinatley self interested also and ask for complete immunity in High sec and stuff the EvE gaming community interests, seems to be the accepted "status quo". Lets just let EvE go to the wall, who cares. Go ahead. That will just make your motivations and views farther removed from mine. It rather sounds like you're implying that I'm motivated by self-interest. The problem is that while, yes, you could probably paint it as such, the interest is most likely vastly different from what you think it is, as shown by your question about my biases.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:22:00 -
[127] - Quote
Never been personally ganked.
Always try to be sensible rather than being stupidly greedy.
Will try to reduce risks.
Will use defensive tehcniques.
Will use sensible tactics, routes, spying, intelligence, watch local, don't just assume the closing mining ship is not a future warping point, keep a distance from belt warp points etc etc.
For me personally its not an issue.
For those who risk stupid things like plex running, multi billion assests in one haul with no provisions for sensible hauling techniques or shiney officer factions modded ships, they deserve what they get.
My view is simply that the risk needs to remain, ganking needs to remain but some steps towards valid retaliation and the discrepency of what gankers can achieve needs to be rebalanced in favour of the industrial.
Being in a corp currently does not afford any protection to a unaffiliated ganker who might have used a trial account just to make a small profit, rinse and repeat. Even more of a problem now with 60 day trials and the increased free training time. And the poor newb who cannot war dec, cannot respond to the avoidance tactics afforded and poor combat abilities. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4650
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:22:00 -
[128] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you. The reason these threads grow so big is because it's so hard to squeeze any kind of solid answers out of the obstinate security junkies as to why more safety is needed.
They have a tendency to demand changes without providing any argument for those changes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4650
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:27:00 -
[129] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:My view is simply that the risk needs to remain, ganking needs to remain but some steps towards valid retaliation and the discrepency of what gankers can achieve needs to be rebalanced in favour of the industrial. GǪand that just highlights the problem: they already don't use the tools at their disposal, so why would they suddenly start to use those new tools?
As for what the gankers can achieve, an immemse portion of that is already under the industrialists' control. Again, they just choose not to exercise that control. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:31:00 -
[130] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you. The reason these threads grow so big is because it's so hard to squeeze any kind of solid answers out of the obstinate security junkies as to why more safety is needed. They have a tendency to demand changes without providing any argument for those changes.
I'm sorry but that is just bang out of order. I have been nothing more than civil in pandering to the request of supplying evidence and reasons by your water torture techniques in this thread. Largley the reason why it has expanded into boredom for others.
But this is the atypical trolling technique you use Tippia, it isnt clever debate at all, so don't pretend it is. It just a technique to out stamina your oponent with obstinate view point. There's nothing intelligent about it at all. And by virtue its just a controlling technique on the forums not very beneficial to the communty either.
|
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2710
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:32:00 -
[131] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Never been personally ganked.
Always try to be sensible rather than being stupidly greedy.
Will try to reduce risks.
Will use defensive tehcniques.
Will use sensible tactics, routes, spying, intelligence, watch local, don't just assume the closing mining ship is not a future warping point, keep a distance from belt warp points etc etc.
For me personally its not an issue.
For those who risk stupid things like plex running, multi billion assests in one haul with no provisions for sensible hauling techniques or shiney officer factions modded ships, they deserve what they get.
My view is simply that the risk needs to remain, ganking needs to remain but some steps towards valid retaliation and the discrepency of what gankers can achieve needs to be rebalanced in favour of the industrial.
Being in a corp currently does not afford any protection to a unaffiliated ganker who might have used a trial account just to make a small profit, rinse and repeat. Even more of a problem now with 60 day trials and the increased free training time. And the poor newb who cannot war dec, cannot respond to the avoidance tactics afforded and poor combat abilities.
Interesting fact: It's virtually impossible to gank someone in high sec if they are alert and aware of how the game works.
Arguments like "but mining is so boring that it's impossible to pay attention while you're doing it" are not persuasive: if mining is so boring, why are you doing it? Do something else! There are so many things other than mining that even a fresh-out-of-the-tutorials player can do that there's simply no reason for them to be mining. It's not even the most lucrative - in fact it's actually one of the WORST income streams available to hi-sec players.
And yes, it's appallingly easy to gank someone in hi-sec if they're AFK and have never bothered to try to find out how EVE works, but in all honesty, so what? Why should we even try to balance EVE around a minority of lazy self-inflicted ignoramuses? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Sasha Azala
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:37:00 -
[132] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Tippia wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you. The reason these threads grow so big is because it's so hard to squeeze any kind of solid answers out of the obstinate security junkies as to why more safety is needed. They have a tendency to demand changes without providing any argument for those changes. I'm sorry but that is just bang out of order. I have been nothing more than civil in pandering to the request of supplying evidence and reasons by your water torture techniques in this thread. Largley the reason why it has expanded into boredom for others. But this is the atypical trolling technique you use Tippia, it isnt clever debate at all, so don't pretend it is. It just a technique to out stamina your oponent with obstinate view points and avoidance techniques. There's nothing intelligent about it at all. And by virtue its just a controlling technique on the forums not very beneficial to the communty either.
I tend to be more carebearish myself, but I'd hate to see Eve without those misfits that try to ruin a person's day. In truth they can be a pain, but on the other hand they make Eve a bit more interesting. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4650
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:39:00 -
[133] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:I'm sorry but that is just bang out of order. I have been nothing more than civil in pandering to the request of supplying evidence and reasons by your water torture techniques in this thread. Largley the reason why it has expanded into boredom for others. So you consider yourself one of those obstinate security junkies? Or are you taking things personally that might not apply to you?
Quote:It just a technique to out stamina your oponent with obstinate view points and avoidance techniques. No, it's a technique to not let people get away with categorical claims without providing any kind of evidence, reasoning, or argument backing them up. I have seen more and more people adopt it for the benefit of all (or, well, for the benefit of those who prefer reasoned argumentation over unfounded nonsense GÇö trolls serm to hate it). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
146
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:41:00 -
[134] - Quote
I've already done the math on the profitability ganking Exhumers with T2 fit Tornados.
These figures are averages, based on current Intact Armor plate prices, building the Tornados yourself off of a BPO, and assuming around 4M/T2 Arty and a 50% drop rate.
Kill one Mackinaw, you take a 25M loss. (rare - only happens when you blow it, shank a shot, fumble your rampage) Kill two Mackinaws, you make a 15M gain. (dead easy) Kill 3 Mackinaws, you make a 55M gain. (also, quite easy) Kill 4 Mackinaws, and you get around 95-100M. (not hard, but sometimes you need to waste a Hulk instead of 2x Macks - or bots randomly warp off to unload....) Kill 5 Mackinaws, and you earn 140M or so. (anything more than 4 takes some skill, fast lag-free internets or working in 0.5 space) Kill 6 Mackinaws, and you can earn 180M+.
There seems to be this idea that ganking Exhumers shoudn't be profitable. I don't get that. Mining is profitable (well, kinda) - so why shouldn't ganking miners be profitable? I've gotta have 450M ISK/per account to pay for my PLEX. Takes me like a whole afternoon of killing Macks to earn that much. Its a real chore sometimes....
@Shazzam, or whoever is the guy arguing with Tippia for two pages: You seem not to like the idea that you can kill 220M worth of hulk for 10M worth of dessies - or 660M worth of Hulks for one 60M Tornado.
I guess the question is: What would be a 'fair' rate of exchange then? You seem to think that miner-gankers should not allowed to profit from their trade. Further, it seems in your world - dessie gankers losing 10M/gank is insufficient, so I guess the question is:
In your fantasy: How much ISK should the gankers be 'required' to pay in order to kill an Exhumer? A hundred million? Two hundred million? 500 M? What figure would make YOU feel better about losing your Hulk? What do you consider fair?
Just remember: in EVE, 'fair' has very little to do with it. Hell, in a more 'fair and equitable' world, you might even stand a chance in an argument with Tippia. |
Captain Torgo
The Geedunk Expedition
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:45:00 -
[135] - Quote
There's an easy fix to this. We tell newbies this all the time but they don't listen.
DON'T. JETCAN. MINE!
Simple really. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Tippia wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:Pure fact that this thread grew so big means that people do care and feel that there must be some changes to either way means this is something that worth the discussion and attention from both the CSM and CCP. Thank you. The reason these threads grow so big is because it's so hard to squeeze any kind of solid answers out of the obstinate security junkies as to why more safety is needed. They have a tendency to demand changes without providing any argument for those changes. I'm sorry but that is just bang out of order. I have been nothing more than civil in pandering to the request of supplying evidence and reasons by your water torture techniques in this thread. Largley the reason why it has expanded into boredom for others. But this is the atypical trolling technique you use Tippia, it isnt clever debate at all, so don't pretend it is. It just a technique to out stamina your oponent with obstinate view points and avoidance techniques. There's nothing intelligent about it at all. And by virtue its just a controlling technique on the forums not very beneficial to the communty either. I tend to be more carebearish myself, but I'd hate to see Eve without those misfits that try to ruin a person's day. In truth they can be a pain, but on the other hand they make Eve a bit more interesting.
Like salt makes food more tasty. But put too much of it and you throw the dish out. I would not imagine eve without gankers or flippers. It would be terribly boring for newbies too. But there must be way more balancing to flipping and especially ganking mechanics. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:49:00 -
[137] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Never been personally ganked.
Always try to be sensible rather than being stupidly greedy.
Will try to reduce risks.
Will use defensive tehcniques.
Will use sensible tactics, routes, spying, intelligence, watch local, don't just assume the closing mining ship is not a future warping point, keep a distance from belt warp points etc etc.
For me personally its not an issue.
For those who risk stupid things like plex running, multi billion assests in one haul with no provisions for sensible hauling techniques or shiney officer factions modded ships, they deserve what they get.
My view is simply that the risk needs to remain, ganking needs to remain but some steps towards valid retaliation and the discrepency of what gankers can achieve needs to be rebalanced in favour of the industrial.
Being in a corp currently does not afford any protection to a unaffiliated ganker who might have used a trial account just to make a small profit, rinse and repeat. Even more of a problem now with 60 day trials and the increased free training time. And the poor newb who cannot war dec, cannot respond to the avoidance tactics afforded and poor combat abilities. Interesting fact: It's virtually impossible to gank someone in high sec if they are alert and aware of how the game works. Arguments like "but mining is so boring that it's impossible to pay attention while you're doing it" are not persuasive: if mining is so boring, why are you doing it? Do something else! There are so many things other than mining that even a fresh-out-of-the-tutorials player can do that there's simply no reason for them to be mining. It's not even the most lucrative - in fact it's actually one of the WORST income streams available to hi-sec players. And yes, it's appallingly easy to gank someone in hi-sec if they're AFK and have never bothered to try to find out how EVE works, but in all honesty, so what? Why should we even try to balance EVE around a minority of lazy self-inflicted ignoramuses?
Totally agree, afk, blast away.
Sorry the fact that mining is underpaid is not a valued argument to not do it, a valid argument to make it more competative perhaps.
Its also comparitively easy to ambush someone even attempting to do so. As in you can't d-scan the opposite side of a gate. You can't d-scan from inside a station. You don't know who is around. Spies watching others and using bait, cuckoo tricks are clever tactics used these days. It can pratically make it impossible to even move around. As if the ganker wants to get you in transit and chooses to tough. Its far too easy for the predator on this one in my view. Even WTZ is not neccesarily an answer these days with Sebo's. Even BC's with the right fit can pop a cov-ops before transit with the right fitting.
I really would love to see the discrepency of assests gained to lost from suicide ganking however in a bigger picture. It would help to have a more clearer picture than just individual scenarios.
|
baltec1
516
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 12:55:00 -
[138] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote: Like salt makes food more tasty. But put too much of it and you throw the dish out. I would not imagine eve without gankers or flippers. It would be terribly boring for newbies too. But there must be way more balancing to flipping and especially ganking mechanics.
No, people just need to learn to not be stupid. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:12:00 -
[139] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:I've already done the math on the profitability ganking Exhumers with T2 fit Tornados. These figures are averages, based on current Intact Armor plate prices, building the Tornados yourself off of a BPO, and assuming around 4M/T2 Arty and a 50% drop rate. Kill one Mackinaw, you take a 25M loss. (rare - only happens when you blow it, shank a shot, fumble your rampage) Kill two Mackinaws, you make a 15M gain. (dead easy) Kill 3 Mackinaws, you make a 55M gain. (also, quite easy) Kill 4 Mackinaws, and you get around 95-100M. (not hard, but sometimes you need to waste a Hulk instead of 2x Macks - or bots randomly warp off to unload....) Kill 5 Mackinaws, and you earn 140M or so. (anything more than 4 takes some skill, fast lag-free internets or working in 0.5 space) Kill 6 Mackinaws, and you can earn 180M+. There seems to be this idea that ganking Exhumers shoudn't be profitable. I don't get that. Mining is profitable (well, kinda) - so why shouldn't ganking miners be profitable? I've gotta have 450M ISK/per account to pay for my PLEX. Takes me like a whole afternoon of killing Macks to earn that much. Its a real chore sometimes.... @Shazzam, or whoever is the guy arguing with Tippia for two pages: You seem not to like the idea that you can kill 220M worth of hulk for 10M worth of dessies - or 660M worth of Hulks for one 60M Tornado. I guess the question is: What would be a 'fair' rate of exchange then? You seem to think that miner-gankers should not allowed to profit from their trade. Further, it seems in your world - dessie gankers losing 10M/gank is insufficient, so I guess the question is: In your fantasy: How much ISK should the gankers be 'required' to pay in order to kill an Exhumer? A hundred million? Two hundred million? 500 M? What figure would make YOU feel better about losing your Hulk? What do you consider fair? Just remember: in EVE, 'fair' has very little to do with it. Hell, in a more 'fair and equitable' world, you might even stand a chance in an argument with Tippia.
I honestly don't know.
What I'd like to achieve i suppose is a measurement of equality for income generation within the two roles. But how the hell you fairly measure that holistically and make it comparable I really don't have complete the answer to. Thats what I pay CCP for.
The idea that gankers can buy a plex in an afternoon, doesn't really make it attractive to afford to do other things does it. And I simply don't want to advocate that everyone in EvE should therefore be a ganker. It kind of doesnt work out logically. And I'm sorry, if your saying the only way to get ahead in the game is to be a criminal and your being a mug enjoying other stuff, then EvE isn't viable for promting the other stuff.
(Also I dont really want to bring and emphasis towards a reality argument into it about crime prevention as it is a game after all).
Hence why my argument boils down to an equation of assest discrepancies. And how easy it is to ruin someone elses day. But it might not be the bigger picture of course.
e.g. Miner 1, could not be untouched for five years and earn whatever. No risk, earning. Infinate pleasure.
Miner 2, could be ganked 10 times in the first two months and have to plex simply to keep themselves interested in the game. Bordering on biomass, bb I'll go play WoW.
Somewhere between these two extremes there is a comparable factor of genuine content.
Taking some step to at least empower them with retaliation methods might add some fun. Might just be simply compounding the problem further in theory with the assest model. Especially if they lose out in the retaliation or have to pay someone anyway. But when criminals can simply corp hop, drop, jump into insignificant newbie ships when chased down, be an NPC corp so you can't war dec them. It kind of makes the aspect of trying to get even moot and detracts from the fun of the game.
Leaves you with a view: "Your a miner your role is to take it up the ******* for the sake of everyone elses fun" |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:12:00 -
[140] - Quote
Baltec1 we argue for ages on these forums and not once you suggested anything, just all denials and not a breeze of fresh air from you. Offer something creative or beneficial to anyone and don't say Eve is perfect. It's far from it and that's a good thing. |
|
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
27
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:13:00 -
[141] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom, you seem to state yourself that eve shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator. Who do you think is the victim in almost all gank cases? The lazy, ignorant people. Is that who you're defending?
Also, I see these claims how it's all too easy. Have you ever tried hunting a real gank target to profit from? Or are you passing off opinions as facts in the same post where you accuse other of being biased.
As a high sec pirate, when I can be bothered, I can tell you with absolute certainty from personal experience, for every person ganked there are hundreds that pass me by because they are taking precautionary measures like being tanked, using cloaky haulers, perfect balance of cargo value for ship making it not worth ganking and so on and so on. Then there are the shanked ganks, the terrible drops.
Please don't spout off your opinions as if they are common knowledge facts.
I believe my post was civilised enough. This uninformed whining about suicide ganks annoys me to no end, because I fear someone who matters at CCP may start believing it.
On the flip side, I have transported, 100s of billions, probably even more, accross high sec over the years without a single incident. Surely with all this super easy ganking out there, the law of probabilities would demand that I'd have been ganked already, multiple times. |
Planetmaster
Weekenders
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:19:00 -
[142] - Quote
Go to 0.0 and mine there. Join any SOV ally |
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:21:00 -
[143] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: CSM forums are reserved for serious discussion
I laughed. Well really I chuckled. Out loud.
7/10 for well delivered and undoubtedly unintended irony. |
baltec1
516
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:23:00 -
[144] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Baltec1 we argue for ages on these forums and not once you suggested anything, just all denials and not a breeze of fresh air from you. Offer something creative or beneficial to anyone and don't say Eve is perfect. It's far from it and that's a good thing.
What part of tank your ships is so hard to get? How many ways is it possible to say this same thing over and over again before it get through to you that there are many ways to defend yourself in high sec or avoid the chance of getting ganked all together?
I suggest that you use the current tools in game rather than whining on the forums for CCP to protect you. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:30:00 -
[145] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:Baltec1 we argue for ages on these forums and not once you suggested anything, just all denials and not a breeze of fresh air from you. Offer something creative or beneficial to anyone and don't say Eve is perfect. It's far from it and that's a good thing. What part of tank your ships is so hard to get? How many ways is it possible to say this same thing over and over again before it get through to you that there are many ways to defend yourself in high sec or avoid the chance of getting ganked all together? I suggest that you use the current tools in game rather than whining on the forums for CCP to protect you.
What part of a sentence "I don't live in high sec" you missed? And I don't ask for advise. I asked for discussion which seems to be going well. So either give ideas or base your argumentson something more then "no because I say no." |
Caldari Acolyte
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:33:00 -
[146] - Quote
No reason for endless debate on this, 2 words, Nich game, fixed. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:33:00 -
[147] - Quote
Ludi Burek wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom, you seem to state yourself that eve shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator. Who do you think is the victim in almost all gank cases? The lazy, ignorant people. Is that who you're defending?
Also, I see these claims how it's all too easy. Have you ever tried hunting a real gank target to profit from? Or are you passing off opinions as facts in the same post where you accuse other of being biased.
As a high sec pirate, when I can be bothered, I can tell you with absolute certainty from personal experience, for every person ganked there are hundreds that pass me by because they are taking precautionary measures like being tanked, using cloaky haulers, perfect balance of cargo value for ship making it not worth ganking and so on and so on. Then there are the shanked ganks, the terrible drops.
Please don't spout off your opinions as if they are common knowledge facts.
I believe my post was civilised enough. This uninformed whining about suicide ganks annoys me to no end, because I fear someone who matters at CCP may start believing it.
On the flip side, I have transported, 100s of billions, probably even more, accross high sec over the years without a single incident. Surely with all this super easy ganking out there, the law of probabilities would demand that I'd have been ganked already, multiple times.
I don't have to be a ganker to understand. The balance books on these things seem pretty obvious looks kind of profitable from someone elses perspective above. Some ganks fail, some ganks profit. If you have all the figures to demonstrate your view then I might also agree with you 100% as to the effective levels you want to claim also.
But really this is what I want to know, some suicide ganks fail, most don't on the assest level. Or else why do it? If we are led to beleive from the stats above suicide gankers have it nice a cushy with the plex an afternoon process.
I could agree that suicide ganking may not be a prevelant issue for most though.
Still from the examples above what I want to see is the relative simplicity of "actual" ganking events, all the other "ganker not bothered" targets don't really interest me. They really weren't any risk to you either where they?
If we could get an accurate picture of "net" gains it might help. |
baltec1
517
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:34:00 -
[148] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:
What part of a sentence "I don't live in high sec" you missed? And I don't ask for advise. I asked for discussion which seems to be going well. So either give ideas or base your argumentson something more then "no because I say no."
What does it matter where you live in relation to your topic?
Also, please re-read what I put, its clear you didn't read it before typing out that reply. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:41:00 -
[149] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:
What part of a sentence "I don't live in high sec" you missed? And I don't ask for advise. I asked for discussion which seems to be going well. So either give ideas or base your argumentson something more then "no because I say no."
What does it matter where you live in relation to your topic? Also, please re-read what I put, its clear you didn't read it before typing out that reply.
Still trollin as usual Baltec? Well, everyone gets fun in their own field.
What really surprised me though is that a lot of ppl assumed I'm a carebear just because I put up a topic on ppl that left this game thanks to flips and ganks. How the hell that makes me a carebear in their minds I fail to understand. |
baltec1
517
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:43:00 -
[150] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:
Still trollin as usual Baltec? Well, everyone gets fun in their own field.
What really surprised me though is that a lot of ppl assumed I'm a carebear just because I put up a topic on ppl that left this game thanks to flips and ganks. How the hell that makes me a carebear in their minds I fail to understand.
Ok riddle me this
Blocade runner fitted with a cov ops cloak, agility mods in the lows, AB and tank in the mids using insta undocks from stations.
How would you gank this in high sec? |
|
Liam Mirren
203
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:47:00 -
[151] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:What really surprised me though is that a lot of ppl assumed I'm a carebear just because I put up a topic on ppl that left this game thanks to flips and ganks. How the hell that makes me a carebear in their minds I fail to understand.
Dude, anyone who quickly glances at your lossmails and notices the sheer stupidity of your fits KNOWS you're a carebear. Blaming others for one's own lack of knowledge&effort is the very definition of a carebear. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:50:00 -
[152] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:
Still trollin as usual Baltec? Well, everyone gets fun in their own field.
What really surprised me though is that a lot of ppl assumed I'm a carebear just because I put up a topic on ppl that left this game thanks to flips and ganks. How the hell that makes me a carebear in their minds I fail to understand.
Ok riddle me this Blocade runner fitted with a cov ops cloak, agility mods in the lows, AB and tank in the mids using insta undocks from stations. How would you gank this in high sec?
Can noob fly that? No. Can relatively new player fly that? No if he's not industrial.
Who said I'm against that king of ganks on gates? I am for that! I am against stupid ganking of new players and in proportion of 3 Lokis vs 1 Navitas. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:55:00 -
[153] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:What really surprised me though is that a lot of ppl assumed I'm a carebear just because I put up a topic on ppl that left this game thanks to flips and ganks. How the hell that makes me a carebear in their minds I fail to understand. Dude, anyone who quickly glances at your lossmails and notices the sheer stupidity of your fits KNOWS you're a carebear. Blaming others for one's own lack of knowledge&effort is the very definition of a carebear.
Dude, FYI I'm not putting kills on battleclinic unless asked for km. Not my style, it's childish to use that thing and gives out info on what you fly to kill. Surprise worth more then km. |
baltec1
518
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:58:00 -
[154] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:
Can noob fly that? No. Can relatively new player fly that? No if he's not industrial.
Who said I'm against that king of ganks on gates? I am for that! I am against stupid ganking of new players and in proportion of 3 Lokis vs 1 Navitas.
An iteron V can get 22k ehp and 350 dps tanked |
Liam Mirren
203
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:58:00 -
[155] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:What really surprised me though is that a lot of ppl assumed I'm a carebear just because I put up a topic on ppl that left this game thanks to flips and ganks. How the hell that makes me a carebear in their minds I fail to understand. Dude, anyone who quickly glances at your lossmails and notices the sheer stupidity of your fits KNOWS you're a carebear. Blaming others for one's own lack of knowledge&effort is the very definition of a carebear. Dude, FYI I'm not putting kills on battleclinic unless asked for km. Not my style, it's childish to use that thing. And nice troll.
Yes because none of the 70 million people you killed in this game have a KB of their own, I'm sure. How is it childish to use facts? Your fits are all idiotic which means that your knowledge on EVE close to 0. I like the troll thingy reply, because that's about the best thing you can try.
Lets keep this real: you're clueless about EVE, on several fronts. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2712
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 13:58:00 -
[156] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Malcanis wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Never been personally ganked.
Always try to be sensible rather than being stupidly greedy.
Will try to reduce risks.
Will use defensive tehcniques.
Will use sensible tactics, routes, spying, intelligence, watch local, don't just assume the closing mining ship is not a future warping point, keep a distance from belt warp points etc etc.
For me personally its not an issue.
For those who risk stupid things like plex running, multi billion assests in one haul with no provisions for sensible hauling techniques or shiney officer factions modded ships, they deserve what they get.
My view is simply that the risk needs to remain, ganking needs to remain but some steps towards valid retaliation and the discrepency of what gankers can achieve needs to be rebalanced in favour of the industrial.
Being in a corp currently does not afford any protection to a unaffiliated ganker who might have used a trial account just to make a small profit, rinse and repeat. Even more of a problem now with 60 day trials and the increased free training time. And the poor newb who cannot war dec, cannot respond to the avoidance tactics afforded and poor combat abilities. Interesting fact: It's virtually impossible to gank someone in high sec if they are alert and aware of how the game works. Arguments like "but mining is so boring that it's impossible to pay attention while you're doing it" are not persuasive: if mining is so boring, why are you doing it? Do something else! There are so many things other than mining that even a fresh-out-of-the-tutorials player can do that there's simply no reason for them to be mining. It's not even the most lucrative - in fact it's actually one of the WORST income streams available to hi-sec players. And yes, it's appallingly easy to gank someone in hi-sec if they're AFK and have never bothered to try to find out how EVE works, but in all honesty, so what? Why should we even try to balance EVE around a minority of lazy self-inflicted ignoramuses? Totally agree, afk, blast away. Sorry the fact that mining is underpaid is not a valued argument to not do it, a valid argument to make it more competative perhaps.
Actually the argument wasn't that mining isn't lucrative enough but that if it's not intereting enough for you to pay attention, you should do something more engaging. But as a matter of fact I agree with that last sentence of yours. Mining does need to be more competitive. At the moment, the income from mining is so low because it's incredibly easy, ore is superabundant and there's a very low barrier to entry, and mining is, overall, pretty safe.
To increase the income from mining, we will need to either make mineral sources much scarcer, or make mining require considerable player skill, or make mining more dangerous. Probably some combination of the 3 will be required. What are your preferences? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Sasha Azala
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:03:00 -
[157] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote: Who said I'm against that king of ganks on gates? I am for that! I am against stupid ganking of new players and in proportion of 3 Lokis vs 1 Navitas.
Is it not better that a new player learns early on when they have less to lose?
It does not matter how many ships are ganking that's fairly irrelevant. You can't say it has to be one on one for example as that would be too artifical.
|
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:03:00 -
[158] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:
Can noob fly that? No. Can relatively new player fly that? No if he's not industrial.
Who said I'm against that king of ganks on gates? I am for that! I am against stupid ganking of new players and in proportion of 3 Lokis vs 1 Navitas.
An iteron V can get 22k ehp and 350 dps tanked
Does newbie know how to fit it or have skills? |
baltec1
518
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:06:00 -
[159] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote: Does newbie know how to fit it or have skills?
If their cargo is worth ganking for then they have played long enough to get the skills to tank an iteron V.
If not, Badger, 14k EHP and 2x t2 warp core stabs, trainable in a matter of weeks. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
277
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:06:00 -
[160] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Corp added to wardec list. I will enjoy that wardec dear troll. May be next time it will cause you to check further before throwing out such word. Don't cry when undocking. I don't think you've seen our killboard. |
|
Liam Mirren
203
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:07:00 -
[161] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:baltec1 wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:
Can noob fly that? No. Can relatively new player fly that? No if he's not industrial.
Who said I'm against that king of ganks on gates? I am for that! I am against stupid ganking of new players and in proportion of 3 Lokis vs 1 Navitas.
An iteron V can get 22k ehp and 350 dps tanked Does newbie know how to fit it or have skills?
Does a newbie have enough stuff in his cargo hold to become victim of a suicide gank, if he's not a full on idiot? If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Klezmer
In Praise Of Shadows
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:12:00 -
[162] - Quote
GET OUT OF SCRUBLORD HIGH SEC AND PROBLEM IS SOLVED. NEXT. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:16:00 -
[163] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: To increase the income from mining, we will need to either make mineral sources much scarcer, or make mining require considerable player skill, or make mining more dangerous. Probably some combination of the 3 will be required. What are your preferences?
None of the above, nor am I neccesarily interested in improving mining income so significantly even if it is needed.
My opinion is "competative", valued, purposefull etc. blah, blah, bit of a difference.
And your suggestions and not the only soultions for that.
The reduction of importance the game currently affords to minerals coming from missioning, ratting and drone goo etc, could be reduced and mining improved to compensate. Thus in theory economy remains stable, miners have a better proportionate share on the influence of mineral assests.
Note I don't mean removal of the other mineral generating proccesses as I recognise how significant they are in the economy, but the shifts towards the mining role, whose priority is the use of these, should afford the effectiveness to the role that it at least can compete more effectively than it currently does. |
Liam Mirren
203
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:19:00 -
[164] - Quote
Minerals from reprocessing mission loot and drone region rats should be considerably lowered (Personally I feel that no meta 0 loot should drop from NPCs), this would surely help. The issue Malcanis brought up is a logical one; worth&income is proportionate to effort and risk, if you want mining to be vastly more profitable you have to make it more difficult to do. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
45
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:26:00 -
[165] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote: A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them).
You'd think that after a couple of run-ins with a can flipper they would try and think of a counter strategy. God forbid there might be some thinking involved, and they might actually have to take some action of their own, rather than sit behind the protection of a noob-friendly mechanic. ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:27:00 -
[166] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Minerals from reprocessing mission loot and drone region rats should be considerably lowered (Personally I feel that no meta 0 loot should drop from NPCs), this would surely help. The issue Malcanis brought up is a logical one; worth&income is proportionate to effort and risk, if you want mining to be vastly more profitable you have to make it more difficult to do.
Why when the view is they are comparatively underpaid?
Maybe becuase I need to replace my hulk losses to keep in line with the destroyers you lost but got some nice drops to help replace it all?
Prove to me that it isn't equally less difficult to gank someone and earn a plex in an afternoon and tell me I shouldnt nerf that and then say minerals can't be re-distributed better.
Wouldn't take much of a shift. Largely unnoticable in the economy other than the miners pocket as the overall mineral wealth is effectively unadjusted if balanced.
If your assuming I'm asking for the Lion's share for mining your wrong, given the current distributions that would be too much of an influence. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4656
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:27:00 -
[167] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Like salt makes food more tasty. But put too much of it and you throw the dish out. I would not imagine eve without gankers or flippers. It would be terribly boring for newbies too. But there must be way more balancing to flipping and especially ganking mechanics. Where is the imbalance?
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:I really would love to see the discrepency of assests gained to lost from suicide ganking however in a bigger picture. It would help to have a more clearer picture than just individual scenarios. How do you mean? Are you talking about drop rates?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Wacktopia
Noir.
152
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:35:00 -
[168] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story: *snip*
Look, this is not WoW, Lord of the Rings, Hello Kitty, Star **** or any of the many other MMO's out that that let you play in a play-pen. It's intended to be hard-going because it will always be hard going. Those that make it through the first few months and experience some pain, suffering or loss are pretty-much good to go.
The thing is; you don't reach some level in EVE where you are suddenly immune to all this stuff. The threat is always there. The bunch of can flippers you describe may get baited by some players with noob alts the very next day and they'll probably sit there thinking "oh gee, this seems unfair that my can-flipping gig had just been busted".
This is madness???? THIS. IS. SPART-EVE!!!!! Apparently we're getting censored now. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
466
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:43:00 -
[169] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
I can't comment on the can flipping because it never happened to me...
being the victim of a can-flipper got me into my first player corp.
Was chillin' in Luse with a few other people, local had maybe 8 people in it ... one of whom was a can flipper. Flipped my ore, and a few other peoples' as well. One of the "good" PvP pilots set up a gang (yeah, it was a gang back then), so that next time the flipper nabbed someone's can, we could all shoot at him (yes, back then you went flashy to anyone in gang when flipping cans).
The gang lead had everyone fit a point to keep the flipper in one place while the rest of the gang warped in on him. I think we killed him once or twice that night ... after he left system (for good, he never came back after that night), the PvP guy who got us all sorted out invited me into their corp.
After that, I don't think I ever got flipped again... well, except when I was the bait |
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
215
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:53:00 -
[170] - Quote
Solution: people just should stop mining. It's a waste of time and skills. |
|
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:00:00 -
[171] - Quote
Cathy Drall wrote:Solution: people just should stop mining. It's a waste of time and skills.
First Tippia returns for a round of trolling boredom, now obvious troll stirs the pot. Please biomass yourself if you can't sensibly contribute.
|
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Reverse Safari Venture Industries
793
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:01:00 -
[172] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So old that forgot when you was new and flew ships that could not hold more then tiny amounts of ore?
I remember those days well. It was bout a year ago for me.
We mined with retrievers and one guy ran rounds in a bestower. We'd drop ore in a jetcan which he would immediately scoop to his hold, leaving one item in the can to hold it open. Even when we made the switch to hulks, we kept up the bestower hauler for a while until I trained up an orca alt. |
March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
119
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:03:00 -
[173] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote: A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
i was tricked and killed first time when i was 1-2 months old n000b. "Hey, help me to test my tank. I will take your can and you can shoot me for free". Those "pro" killed my fail-fit Myrmidon which was like 80% of my total wallet. With returned insurance i was barely able to buy new one. Used stuff from corp hangar to fit it. Because of lack of ISK.
End of a story? I'm here. 2 years passed. Lesson learnt.
You sure Eve needs guys who can't take 1 kick in a butt?
|
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3023
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:05:00 -
[174] - Quote
However taught you to can mine needs to die.
|
Liam Mirren
205
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:11:00 -
[175] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Maybe becuase I need to replace my hulk losses to keep in line with the destroyers you lost but got some nice drops to help replace it all? I mean if you want miners to be the sacraficial lamb in EvE at least pay them better so there are more opportunities for you to gank them? Feeds the ganking economy surely, lol
Here's the deal, it's not at all difficult to avoid being ganked for the same reason that it's not at all difficult to avoid being can flipped, there's many ways (other than using an orca or secure can) to avoid can flipping and there's tons of ways to dramatically lower the risk of being ganked, to almost 0. It's all about a little bit of thinking, some preparation and a bit of non-afk effort.
Why should we, or the game for that matter, cater for stupid/lazy people who for some reason completely ignore the fact that this is a PVP based MMO and just go about their business without thought or preparation? Real newbies have an excuse to not know stuff, but once they're exposed to it (after the initial "why me" phase) they have the option to put in effort to learn and do something about it. And older players certainly don't have an excuse.
One can only gank or can flip someone who chooses to not have put in effort to protect himself. Why try and cater for those people? If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:23:00 -
[176] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Maybe becuase I need to replace my hulk losses to keep in line with the destroyers you lost but got some nice drops to help replace it all? I mean if you want miners to be the sacraficial lamb in EvE at least pay them better so there are more opportunities for you to gank them? Feeds the ganking economy surely, lol Here's the deal, it's not at all difficult to avoid being ganked for the same reason that it's not at all difficult to avoid being can flipped, there's many ways (other than using an orca or secure can) to avoid can flipping and there's tons of ways to dramatically lower the risk of being ganked, to almost 0. It's all about a little bit of thinking, some preparation and a bit of non-afk effort. Why should we, or the game for that matter, cater for stupid/lazy people who for some reason completely ignore the fact that this is a PVP based MMO and just go about their business without thought or preparation? Real newbies have an excuse to not know stuff, but once they're exposed to it (after the initial "why me" phase) they have the option to put in effort to learn and do something about it. And older players certainly don't have an excuse. One can only gank or can flip someone who chooses to not have put in effort to protect himself. Why try and cater for those people?
Sorry dont agree. Repeated ground, read back if you need to.
By argued reasons above why should we cater for stupid lazy ganker interests? |
Liam Mirren
205
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:25:00 -
[177] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Sorry dont agree. Repeated ground, read back if you need to.
What, you don't agree with the fact that only lazy idiots get repeatedly ganked? Or that you can do something about it? Perhaps you don't agree that we shouldn't cater for the lowest denominator?
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:By argued reasons above why should we cater for stupid lazy ganker interests?
Well, they obviously put in more effort than their targets. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Ronald Ray Gun
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:26:00 -
[178] - Quote
Try reading the official mining guide. Nowhere does it mention jet can mining. No jetcan means no flippers. Simple. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:28:00 -
[179] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Sorry dont agree. Repeated ground, read back if you need to.
What, you don't agree with the fact that only lazy idiots get repeatedly ganked? Or that you can do something about it? Perhaps you don't agree that we shouldn't cater for the lowest denominator?
Mining competitveness effects all miners why do you consider it to be the lowest denominator?
If so stop saying we are worthless underpaid scrubs.
By whats been reported all over the shop, mining seems to be revered as the worst profession, ergo sum it needs an improvement. Can't have it both ways.
|
Klezmer
In Praise Of Shadows
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:29:00 -
[180] - Quote
Heaven forbid people work to protect their assets by not putting them in a gigantic cannister that can easily be stolen from. |
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Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:30:00 -
[181] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Sorry dont agree. Repeated ground, read back if you need to.
What, you don't agree with the fact that only lazy idiots get repeatedly ganked? Or that you can do something about it? Perhaps you don't agree that we shouldn't cater for the lowest denominator? Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:By argued reasons above why should we cater for stupid lazy ganker interests? Well, they obviously put in more effort than their targets.
So the act of being able to kill a soft target with no way of fighting back, where death is the final outcome of your logic to prove effort which therefore precludes the outcome, suggests an argument?
By the very measurement of game assests which is combined to the mineral scale for measureing and comapring things it doesnt make sense.
The activity of mining and industrial work is perceived to be labourious and time consuming to acheive anything, yet you can get a plex in an afternoon? Get real. |
FluffyDice
StarFckers Inc. The Jagged Alliance
63
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:31:00 -
[182] - Quote
I love you guys. Never change. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:33:00 -
[183] - Quote
Also show me the stats for the ones who got away? Where are they recorded, whats supporting those claims? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4663
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:34:00 -
[184] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:First Tippia returns for a round of trolling boredom, now obvious troll stirs the pot. Please biomass yourself if you can't sensibly contribute. SoGǪ why don't you? Also, just so you know, I don't troll. Trust me, the day I start trolling, you'll notice.
Was the question too hard for you?
Also, Cathy's suggestion isn't nearly as silly as you would like to think GÇö mining no longer serves much of a purpose in EVE (which, incidentally, is why it's considered relatively underpaid and why it's a such a magnet for ganks) since it doesn't even contribute with a critical portion of the minerals.
Quote:By argued reasons above why should we cater for stupid lazy ganker interests? They already have to use more smarts and spend more energy, so if it makes the targets realise that they're living in dangerous environment and makes them start using proper safety behaviour (and maybe even explore the tools available for retribution), then yes GÇö it's a good trade-off. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:35:00 -
[185] - Quote
Not interested Tippia, bait your hook on someone else. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2713
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:36:00 -
[186] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Malcanis wrote: To increase the income from mining, we will need to either make mineral sources much scarcer, or make mining require considerable player skill, or make mining more dangerous. Probably some combination of the 3 will be required. What are your preferences?
None of the above, nor am I neccesarily interested in improving mining income so significantly even if it is needed. My opinion is "competative", valued, purposefull etc. blah, blah, bit of a difference. And your suggestions and not the only soultions for that. The reduction of importance the game currently affords to minerals coming from missioning, ratting and drone goo etc, could be reduced and mining improved to compensate. Thus in theory economy remains stable, miners have a better proportionate share on the influence of mineral assests. Note I don't mean removal of the other mineral generating proccesses as I recognise how significant they are in the economy, but the shifts towards the mining role, whose priority is the use of these, should afford the effectiveness to the role that it at least can compete more effectively than it currently does.
But the thing is no matter what is done to drone alloys or loot reproc, if there is as much ore as anyone wants, and mining is really easy, then the reward for mining will always be EVE's "minimum wage".
Personally I completely agree with you that miners should be the primary source for all minerals, but that's not going to stop them getting ganked. If anything, it will increase competition between miners, and since they'll be in heightened competition with each other, they'll have every incentive to start ganking each other more than now. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Liam Mirren
205
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:38:00 -
[187] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Sorry dont agree. Repeated ground, read back if you need to.
What, you don't agree with the fact that only lazy idiots get repeatedly ganked? Or that you can do something about it? Perhaps you don't agree that we shouldn't cater for the lowest denominator? Mining competitveness effects all miners why do you consider it to be the lowest denominator? If so stop saying we are worthless underpaid scrubs. By whats been reported all over the shop, mining seems to be revered as the worst profession, ergo sum it needs an improvement. Can't have it both ways.
Which part of "it's not difficult to not get ganked or can flipped" don't you get? I'm not saying mining is worthless, I'm saying that lazy miners get ganked or can flipped. Just as lazy people who run mission in their Tengus get suicided and lazy people in low sec, 0.0 or WH lose their ships and assets. It's the other way round more like; lazy people get taken advantage from and lazy people will choose something easy and boring to do.... mining.
Miners who DO put in some effort to protect themselves do quite well and actually, these miner gankings ensure that people who put in effort get rewarded as their afk/idiot/botting competition gets taken care of. Just as in any other part of this game. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Ifly Uwalk
Concentrated Evil Mining For Profit Alliance
148
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:39:00 -
[188] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:I accidently the EvE icon on my desktop when I woolly wanted the WoW icon. Now I haz a cry. gb2wow n00b. |
ariana ailith
Aribar Conglomerate
41
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:41:00 -
[189] - Quote
yawn |
Morgals
Sturm Reich Sturmgrenadier Syndicate
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:41:00 -
[190] - Quote
Can flipping in high sec is fine.
Can flipping where newbies missiopn during the tutorial and the career missions.....is not fine.
Had a newbie on TS fall for this during one of there career missions.
The mess of explaining the aggro mechanics was horrible. Finding out where he was, the status of the other player, and then possible actions. Well he died then explaining how he earned himself a 15min timeout.
Player was fine because we where there to explain what happened in detail and how he stole. (yes he clicked the dialog box w/o reading). Also went over what do next time(dock up).
Without us there to help he would not understand what happened and simply be frustrated.
Short of a better clearer aggresions system..no can flipping in systems where tutorial or career agents are would be nice. Looking for a mature, adult gaming community that has been active in EvE since 2004?Recruitment is open! Come join our public channel and get to know us. SGHQ-PUBLIC [url]http://sgeve.dai-coar.com/[/url] |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4663
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:42:00 -
[191] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:So the act of being able to kill a soft target with no way of fghting back, where death is the final outcome of your logic to prove effort which therefore precludes the outcome, suggests an argument? You quite missed his point: the reason the targets got killed was because they put in less effort than the gankers (because there are, indeed, plenty of ways for them to fight back).
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Not interested Tippia, bait your hook on someone else. Ok, fine. I accept your surrender. vOv
Quote:The activity of mining and industrial work is perceived to be labourious and time consuming to acheive anything, yet you can get a plex in an afternoon? Get real. That just shows that either PLEXes are overpriced, or that some other activities are vastly overpaid. And again, the reason mining is underpaid has very little to do with ganks or can flips, and a whole lot more to do with it being rendered largely irrelevant in the current economy.
In fact, if anything the opposite causal chain is in effect: mining is not a low-reward job because of ganks and theft; rather, mining is a target for ganks and theft because it's low-paying.
Morgals wrote:Short of a better clearer aggresions system..no can flipping in systems where tutorial or career agents are would be nice. You mean the rule that is already in effect? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:46:00 -
[192] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: But the thing is no matter what is done to drone alloys or loot reproc, if there is as much ore as anyone wants, and mining is really easy, then the reward for mining will always be EVE's "minimum wage".
Not convinced by this. Adding more minerals into the miners pot should afford some improvement to income if the overall mineral composition in the economy is maintained. Its just redistributing assests which can be turned into ISK.
But its not easy, due to the losses. This inflicts a degree of difficulty, but something outside of our control. Its just an expected passive overhead miners have to face. Why should that aspect of the role simply be eliminated as a valued aspect to the mining profession?
Quote:Personally I completely agree with you that miners should be the primary source for all minerals, but that's not going to stop them getting ganked. If anything, it will increase competition between miners, and since they'll be in heightened competition with each other, they'll have every incentive to start ganking each other more than now.
I'm not asking for the cessation of ganking, how many times?
Also rivalry goes on now, if all miners have an equal adjustment then they all have an equal changed footing, so what really has changed in regards to competition between rival miners? |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:48:00 -
[193] - Quote
Here's simplified list of what we got so far as i see it:
Carebears = creative, self-respected and active people (miners, inventors, researchers, builders). They dont need to prove anything to anyone and they play the game for the creative side of it. And of course hated.
PvPers = also creative and self-respected active people who also happen to have industrial alts or mains to fund their war efforts. They pvp for fun or for defense or for both in addition to attacking for SOV.
Pirates = same as pvpers with decent ships and scanning abilities sitting on gates for lucrative targets of opportunity.
Canflippers = teenagers or adults who never grew up. None or low self-esteem and constant need to prove anything to anyone that they more then just no one.
Gankers = same as canflippers.
Newbie systems gankers = dicks. Just without them.
A bit simplified classification, but that's what it is in my opinion. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4664
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:57:00 -
[194] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Not convinced by this. Adding more minerals into the miners pot should afford some improvement to income if the overall mineral composition in the economy is maintained. Its just redistributing assests which can be turned into ISK. No, because mining is something that is very easy for anyone to do.
If you just increase the portion of minerals that is produced by miners (or, more accurately, reduce the portion of minerals that come from other sources and hope that miners wlil compensate for the loss), what will happen is that more people start mining in the early rush and then the same amount of minerals ends up being produced, at the same final price as we see right now. End-result: mining is still minimum-wage because it's so simple.
Quote:But its not easy, due to the losses. It is easy, losses included. It's particularly easy since the losses are easy to avoid if you actually pay attention and try to maintain a minimum of control over your environment.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2713
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 15:58:00 -
[195] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Malcanis wrote: But the thing is no matter what is done to drone alloys or loot reproc, if there is as much ore as anyone wants, and mining is really easy, then the reward for mining will always be EVE's "minimum wage".
Not convinced by this. Adding more minerals into the miners pot should afford some improvement to income if the overall mineral composition in the economy is maintained. Its just redistributing assests which can be turned into ISK. But its not easy, due to the losses. This inflicts a degree of difficulty, but something outside of our control. Its just an expected passive overhead miners have to face. Why should that aspect of the role simply be eliminated as a valued aspect to the mining profession? Quote:Personally I completely agree with you that miners should be the primary source for all minerals, but that's not going to stop them getting ganked. If anything, it will increase competition between miners, and since they'll be in heightened competition with each other, they'll have every incentive to start ganking each other more than now. I'm not asking for the cessation of ganking, how many times? Also rivalry goes on now, if all miners have an equal adjustment then they all have an equal changed footing, so what really has changed in regards to competition between rival miners?
What will have changed is that you effectively get a greater reward for ganking another miner.
eg: let's say that mining produces 45% of the total supply of $Mineral. If you gank a fellow $Mineral miner, you're only effecting 45% of the supply of $Mineral.
Now suppose drone alloys are nerfed and now mining produces 90% of the total supply of $Mineral. Each miner you gank now reduces the supply by twice as much. You get twice as much benefit (ie: it raises demand for your output of $Mineral by twice as much) for ganking, so the incentive to gank is greatly increased. Simple game-theory.
Miners getting ganked is a bad thing for the individual miners that lose their mining ship, but it's a good thing for every miner that doesn't get ganked. That's why it's good that ganking happens; alert, careful miners with a good knowledge of game mechanics get a comparitive advantage over lazy, ignorant miners. Even if the good miners get ganked sometimes, it doesn't matter; it only matters that they get ganked significantly less, so that competitive advantage occurs. Without ganking, they'd be on exactly a level par with the lazy ignorant miners. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
16
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:07:00 -
[196] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Not interested Tippia, bait your hook on someone else. You were too scared to post with your main so you created an alt to discuss stuff on the forums and now you don't want to use it? |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:07:00 -
[197] - Quote
Simple model for idiots who dont understand redistirbution.
Old way: Price of Trit fixed at 10 isk
Miners produce 10 units, Reprocessing produces 1000 units.
Value miners = 100 isk, Value reprocessing = 10,000 isk
New way: Price of Trit still fixed at 10 isk.
Miners produce 15 units, Reprocessing produces 995 units.
Value miners = 150 isk, Value Reprocessing = 9950 isk
Net change = 150% to miners, 99.5% to reproeccesors.
Even this change though not neccesarily the wanted values I want for a mining increase (before anyone gets stupid troll)
shows that a small change towards miners can have a significant change to them in value, whilst not effecting reprocessing significantly.
Prices remain the same, same amount of Trit.
Class dismissed.
|
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
215
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:11:00 -
[198] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Cathy Drall wrote:Solution: people just should stop mining. It's a waste of time and skills. First Tippia returns for a round of trolling boredom, now obvious troll stirs the pot. Please biomass yourself if you can't sensibly contribute. I'm sorry but if you inists on engaging in semi-afk activities in a costly, paper-thin tanked vessel that earns you perhaps one thrid or less than the average L4 mission runner you're just asking for problems. And you know it.
Not saying it's how things should be but CCP decided that's the way it has to be. Don't blame the people making use of the game mechanics but the people who invented them. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4664
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:12:00 -
[199] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Simple model for idiots who dont understand redistirbution.
Old way: Price of Trit fixed at 10 isk Miners produce 10 units, Reprocessing produces 1000 units. Value miners = 100 isk, Value reprocessing = 10,000 isk
New way: Price of Trit still fixed at 10 isk. Miners produce 15 units, Reprocessing produces 995 units. Value miners = 150 isk, Value Reprocessing = 9950 isk Net change = 50% to miners, 99.5% to reproeccesors. Fixed. Also, you forgot one step:
News of increased mining wealth doubles the miner population. Net change: 25% less value per miner. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:13:00 -
[200] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Malcanis wrote: But the thing is no matter what is done to drone alloys or loot reproc, if there is as much ore as anyone wants, and mining is really easy, then the reward for mining will always be EVE's "minimum wage".
Not convinced by this. Adding more minerals into the miners pot should afford some improvement to income if the overall mineral composition in the economy is maintained. Its just redistributing assests which can be turned into ISK. But its not easy, due to the losses. This inflicts a degree of difficulty, but something outside of our control. Its just an expected passive overhead miners have to face. Why should that aspect of the role simply be eliminated as a valued aspect to the mining profession? Quote:Personally I completely agree with you that miners should be the primary source for all minerals, but that's not going to stop them getting ganked. If anything, it will increase competition between miners, and since they'll be in heightened competition with each other, they'll have every incentive to start ganking each other more than now. I'm not asking for the cessation of ganking, how many times? Also rivalry goes on now, if all miners have an equal adjustment then they all have an equal changed footing, so what really has changed in regards to competition between rival miners? What will have changed is that you effectively get a greater reward for ganking another miner. eg: let's say that mining produces 45% of the total supply of $Mineral. If you gank a fellow $Mineral miner, you're only effecting 45% of the supply of $Mineral. Now suppose drone alloys are nerfed and now mining produces 90% of the total supply of $Mineral. Each miner you gank now reduces the supply by twice as much. You get twice as much benefit (ie: it raises demand for your output of $Mineral by twice as much) for ganking, so the incentive to gank is greatly increased. Simple game-theory..
Totally agree but the the examples you are quoting afford for a ridicoulous skewing of your argument. Like I said I'm only interested in a small adjustment to afford here, and i know how important it is to maintain the Lions share in the reprocessing economy, I said this earlier. But in theory it is the same still regardless, beacuse despite whatever influence a miner has to the economy, ther removal of one over another is still equal.
Difference between equal effects and over exagerating a point that will never come about. Tried to emphasise this earlier with my comments about at least trying to maintain the order of things. |
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
146
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:13:00 -
[201] - Quote
Well, you seem pretty impressed by my ability to earn 450M in a session by ganking Exhumers, as you've made several references to my results by now. You seem to suggest that I don't deserve that kind of ISK for my efforts and it suggests imbalance.
So, enlighten me - if Solo-ganking Macks and Hulks profitably without insurance is 'so easy' and requires no skill at all - how would you go about it? Explain it to me. You profess to be an expert what is and isn't balanced. You claim that gankers have it 'too easy', so it shouldn't be hard for you to explain HOW to turn a consistent profit doing it. Here's your chance to showcase your knowledge.
I understand how to mine, how to tank an Exhumer, how to avoid a gank. I can also identify a bot and quickly recognize a bad tank - and how to exploit them. That probably makes me a better miner than 90% of them, and I hardly ever do it. (Well, except to troll miners after killing a bunch of them....nothing like a few cycles of ice after you've cleared out all the riff-raff....)
I want you to illustrate what you KNOW about ganking - other than complaining about it. Or dismissing people like Tippia, who clearly have a much wider experience in-game than you do. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
466
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:17:00 -
[202] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote: Carebears = creative, self-respected and active people who don't necessarily play all of EVE. Generally maligned here because of the ones who cry on the forums that they should be left alone to do stuff.
PvPers = also creative and self-respected active people who play all of EVE
(more stuff)
Now, I'm not saying your post was wrong, but this is generally how it works out.
Nearly everything in the game that one can do is "PvP". Granted things have been lessened in the recent past in some areas (e.g. rock spawns are daily now, not on M/F), making things look "not PVP".
It took me a long time to wrap my head around this (I was a carebear). Actually, if you look on the old forums, you'll probably find at least one occasion where Tippia (or another) was telling me off for being daft about how EVE works. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:18:00 -
[203] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Simple model for idiots who dont understand redistirbution.
Old way: Price of Trit fixed at 10 isk Miners produce 10 units, Reprocessing produces 1000 units. Value miners = 100 isk, Value reprocessing = 10,000 isk
New way: Price of Trit still fixed at 10 isk. Miners produce 15 units, Reprocessing produces 995 units. Value miners = 150 isk, Value Reprocessing = 9950 isk Net change = +50% to miners, -0.5% to reproeccesors. Fixed. Also, you forgot one step: News of increased mining wealth doubles the miner population. Net change: -25% value per miner.
Yeah sorry, net rather than total change. Thankyou.
but .... missed your own rebalancing trick ......
Change of increased miners reduces mission runners, reduces reprocessing input.
What assest readjustment shall we afford to that change? |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
16
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:20:00 -
[204] - Quote
Here is a simple and effective way to avoid can flippers: Follow the instructions laid out in theMining Guide
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4664
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:27:00 -
[205] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:but .... missed your own rebalancing trick ......
Change of increased miners reduces mission runners, reduces reprocessing input.
What assest readjustment shall we afford to that change? Miners stop picking up every last 800 cap charge and finish missions quicker, and thus earn more money. Net change -¦0%. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
mUfFiN fAcToRy Psychotic Tendencies.
900
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:32:00 -
[206] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:OP failed to realise (we all did in the beginning, guess what; we're still here) that EVE is a harsh PVP environment which manifests itself in many different ways. If you had several can flippers on the same day don't you think said newbies should THINK about what they're doing and what they should be doing differently? It's not very difficult to ask in rookie/help chat what can be done about it, LEARN what can be done about is and create some teamwork.
In other words, learn from it, deal with it and if you don't or can't adapt, get out.
Translation: *coughs* ahem...
Hahaha OP is stupid! Grow a pair then come back and we might let you speak.... |
Liam Mirren
206
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:37:00 -
[207] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Translation: *coughs* ahem...
Hahaha OP is lazy! Put in some effort and you'll find things suddenly work out better....
FTFY
I expected better of you tbh. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
None ofthe Above
6
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:41:00 -
[208] - Quote
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:Try reading the official mining guide. Nowhere does it mention jet can mining. No jetcan means no flippers. Simple.
In game tutorial still mentions it. Noticed that the other day while training up an alt.
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above!
|
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:49:00 -
[209] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Well, you seem pretty impressed by my ability to earn 450M in a session by ganking Exhumers, as you've made several references to my results by now. You seem to suggest that I don't deserve that kind of ISK for my efforts and it suggests imbalance.
So, enlighten me - if Solo-ganking Macks and Hulks profitably without insurance is 'so easy' and requires no skill at all - how would you go about it? Explain it to me. You profess to be an expert what is and isn't balanced. You claim that gankers have it 'too easy', so it shouldn't be hard for you to explain HOW to turn a consistent profit doing it. Here's your chance to showcase your knowledge.
I understand how to mine, how to tank an Exhumer, how to avoid a gank. I can also identify a bot and quickly recognize a bad tank - and how to exploit them. That probably makes me a better miner than 90% of them, and I hardly ever do it. (Well, except to troll miners after killing a bunch of them....nothing like a few cycles of ice after you've cleared out all the riff-raff....)
I want you to illustrate what you KNOW about ganking - other than complaining about it. Or dismissing people like Tippia, who clearly have a much wider experience in-game than you do.
Already stated I'm not a ganker before. Should give an obvious understanding of my practical application.
No interest to do so. Logically it does not afford me to say I don't know the mechanics in theory.
If your Epeen is so hurt about me calling ganking bad by attacking soft targets well? Not my problem.
I'm sure there is a lot of clever activities in terms of picking a target and I wouldn't say it is not an ativity of redundancy to some thought. But its a pretty much open a shut case of find target, once established, point and fire, wait for Concordokken. Whatever tactics you may have rehearsed in terms of bait, cuckoo or other clever tactics am sure deserve some recognition also.
I'm not looking at it from that level of the spectrum of combat activities. What about all the planning and activity that goes into all of the various industrial activities. Whilst the physical aspect of mining could be viewed as point guns at rock then fire, wait for cargo to get full, keep aware etc. Isnt exactly einstein and riveting it still doesnt elimante all the various activities associated with the role.
Most aspects of the role are asscoated with planning that afford any exercising of the brain cells.
But I'm not going to dismiss the risk that we face in how we manage our acceptable losses.Anyone who doesn't figure these in to their mining plans could be asking to fail. Or are you now saying that all industrials should now simply just ignore all the industrial losses as relevant?
As to Tippia, she is a pain and she jolly well knows it. She wont be happy until she has disected every last minute aspect of detail and then will deconstruct the scalpel, her facemask, gloves, the operating table then the theatre until she finds the answer to why the patient wasn't on the table to begin with.
I really don't mind reminding her how obtuse he/she is. Probably a nice person if you try to simply go the popularity route, but just because she annoys the hell out of people or their arguments you don't like and then try for a popularity strike doesn't always make her opinion right or unflawed. (Case and point above) |
Liam Mirren
207
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 16:56:00 -
[210] - Quote
Here's a tip; if you WOULD put in effort to learn how gankers make profit or how can flipping works or anything else that affects you.... you might figure out how to counter it. And that really is the crux; if you're too lazy to learn how to avoid becoming a victim (by putting in effort to learn how and why things happen) then you only have yourself to blame.
I'll state it again, it's SUPER EASY to avoid being ganked or can flipped, like seriously easy. It doesn't involve massive, high SP ships, it doesn't involve fighting back and it doesn't involve 17 alts. All it requires is some effort and a bit of knowledge. So, why should we care for people who choose to not put in that effort? Why should a miner who puts in ZERO effort into securing his assets be just as safe as a miner who DOES put in that effort and time? If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
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ILikeMarkets
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 17:01:00 -
[211] - Quote
I figure CCP never intended EVE to break 50,000 concurrent users. Can you imagine the nightmare if there were 100,000 players on at once?
That's the hell we'd have to deal with if can flipping wasn't possible. Luckily, it is. The flippers help keep the population numbers at a respectable amount. Leave them to their work, please. Protect highsec.-áWe are the 66%.
https://p.twimg.com/Ajc6KNBCQAAT9my.png (Source: https://twitter.com/ccp_diagoras ) |
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance Dark Empire Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 17:03:00 -
[212] - Quote
I remember when I 1st got into mining, but it wasnt until I could fly an Osprey. Then I mined with a Rokh, jetcan mining.
But in all honesty, when I look back. I would have been better off running missions while training to fly the Hulk. I would have made a lot more isk while training up. Best advice I could give a prospective new player interested in mining would be just that. Run missions while training. and that's if you REALLY want to mine. Because after awhile, once that player gets to level 4's they may completely lose interest in mining.
if someone is being pestered by can flippers and bumpers/gankers. the best option is to move. there is nothing in highsec that you cannot find in another system that has less than 20 people online in it at any given time. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 17:03:00 -
[213] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Here's a tip; if you WOULD put in effort to learn how gankers make profit or how can flipping works or anything else that affects you.... you might figure out how to counter it. And that really is the crux; if you're too lazy to learn how to avoid becoming a victim (by putting in effort to learn how and why things happen) then you only have yourself to blame.
I'll state it again, it's SUPER EASY to avoid being ganked or can flipped, like seriously easy. It doesn't involve massive, high SP ships, it doesn't involve fighting back and it doesn't involve 17 alts. All it requires is some effort and a bit of knowledge. So, why should we care for people who choose to not put in that effort? Why should a miner who puts in ZERO effort into securing his assets be just as safe as a miner who DOES put in that effort and time?
Yawn. Repeat ad infinitum. Must be an echo. How many times has this irrefutable point of view be forced down my throat as something I have to swallow.
Short of saying a big expletive: Old ground, read above.
But just to demonstrate your bias, how much SP does it take to fit a destroyer. Then compare that to the SP to be an effective miner, an effective refiner and an effect industrialist to make best economical oppurtunities and make a profit from the role to actually make any reasonable income. You'd be surprised how much is the answer. Its not just jump into a mining frigate and suddenly its all mai tais at 11 o'clock.
Someone find me a reasonable person who doesnt want to just get paid by Goonies in Hulkageddon, plz, I'm praying, no begging, WHERE IS THE SANITY ........... fizz, whip, bang, poof !!!
Tired now, having been overwhelmed by so many, and not being able to actually play internet spaceships. Play nice kiddies, know you wont. Some other babysitter will be by soon to infuriate you with reason shortly I'm sure. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4664
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 17:16:00 -
[214] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:As to Tippia, she is a pain and she jolly well knows it. Yes, I know that trolls get infuriated by me asking them to provide data or reasons or arguments to support their assertions. I also know that someone who has an actual point to make will have no problems doing the same.
Quote:She wont be happy until she has disected every last minute aspect of detail and then will deconstruct the scalpel, her facemask, gloves, the operating table then the theatre until she finds the answer to why the patient wasn't on the table to begin with. Fun fact: deconstruction is a very useful technique for determining what the actual issue is.
Quote:I really don't mind reminding her how obtuse he/she is. The problem is that you should probably spend that energy on trying to explain the issue instead, since the supposed obtuseness is merely a tool to highlight the unfounded nature of the claims being made.
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:But just to demonstrate your bias, how much SP does it take to fit a destroyer. Then compare that to the SP to be an effective miner, an effective refiner and an effect industrialist to make best economical oppurtunities and make a profit from the role to actually make any reasonable income. You'd be surprised how much is the answer. No-one is surprised by the answer. What's surprising is that you think it's even remotely relevant to anything. In your own words: old ground, read above. EVE is not like any other game, where bigger is better, where higher price buys absolute or even proportionally higher effectiveness, and it most certainly isn't a game where GÇ£higher levelGÇ¥ is a ticket to success.
It's not a bias GÇö it's intentional game design. The ability for a low-SP destroyer to completely ruin a high-SP Hulk's day is proof positive that the game is working as intended. It most certainly isn't a problem in any shape or form.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Liam Mirren
207
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 17:23:00 -
[215] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Yawn. Repeat ad infinitum. Must be an echo. How many times has this irrefutable point of view be forced down my throat as something I have to swallow.
Short of saying a big expletive: Old ground, read above.
I gets repeated because it's truth.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
146
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Posted - 2012.01.30 17:30:00 -
[216] - Quote
Funny to watch you talk down to people who know far more about this game than you do.
How long to fly a dessie? About as long as it takes to train into DC II - which by itself, makes you invulnerable to most destroyers, as well as many Tornados. Oh, wait, but using a DCII would slightly slow down your mining efficiency, so thats right out, huh?
The amount of SP it takes to train the proper mods for tanking a Hulk are trivial compared to the length of time it takes to train the Large Projectile skills it takes to instapop even a badly tanked Hulk with a Tornado.
My point had little to do with epeen and more to do with:
I know a lot about Hulk tanks - and that make me a better ganker.
What little you did say shows you know jackshit about ganking - and, thus, you have no idea how to effectively counter it. Thus the whining to have 'mommy and daddy' change the conditions of the game because its 'so unfair'.
This game rewards knowledge and adaptability. It punishes stupidity and arrogance.
And thats why you mine and get ganked, while I do the ganking and make far more ISK doing it.
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Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
1318
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 17:38:00 -
[217] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Fun fact: deconstruction is a very useful technique for determining what the actual issue is.
Yep. The reason why this is needed lies within those who don't use the proper words to describe the issues they have. Wow, what a sentence. ^^
Don't blame Tippia for having to deconstruct most of the stuff that's written on the forum ... blame people for not being exact and detailed about their thoughts and feelings.
TL;DR: Confirming Tippia. Wow, i really must be sick ... lol
Edit: I have experience in ganking and ganking gankers. I love them for being part of the game and for the ability to shoot them just so (GCC) and i would never want them to get removed, simply because they are a valid part of the game and i can blow their pods up when they are -5 or suicide their pods if they have bounty, but aren't criminals. ^^ Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Argyle Jones
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 17:41:00 -
[218] - Quote
Ludi Burek wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom, you seem to state yourself that eve shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator. Who do you think is the victim in almost all gank cases? The lazy, ignorant people. Is that who you're defending?
I'm kinda split on the whole issue, but what you're saying here is a bit of a stretch. The ganker can fall on his prey at any time, in any place, meaning the prey has to be alert at all times. Just cause you fail to d-scan every 5 seconds for the whole time you're mining doesn't necessarily mean you're lazy or ignorant. Maybe you had to check the market, or someone sent you a convo or whatever...
I suppose it's not unfair to say that mining in an exhumer in empire space has essentially become just as dangerous than ratting in a battleship in 0.0, in the sense that a miner now has to check his d-scan constantly for catalysts and tornados and watch local for known gankers. Whether that is what CCP intends with high-security space or not I have no idea.
I just don't think it's a fair argument to say anyone who falls prey to a gank is lazy and stupid.
/Yargle
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Marduk Nibiru
Physical Chaos
55
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 17:46:00 -
[219] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Valentyn3 wrote:Don't use jet cans for mining? So old that forgot when you was new and flew ships that could not hold more then tiny amounts of ore?
I'm building an Industry alt. I know exactly how annoying it is. I have to either mine in a frig or destroyer and can mine...or mine in a cheap hauler with 5k storage.
Guess which I choose. I AFK mine and either play my main, another alt, read, or watch TV. Some day I make get ganked but I'm pulling a profit none the less.
Guess what I do when I see someone jet can mining. That's right, I wait for a while, meander on over, and take their ore.
Results in some serious lols actually. People get all kinds of passive aggressive. "Can't wait to catch you out in lowsec!"
I especially like when they put out secure containers in .9 systems and mine into them. I just cruise over and take the can, I don't even have to wait out an aggression timer in the station. Then I repackage, get the ore, and sell the can on the market. Guess who buys it...
What you never see me doing, is dropping a can...unless of course I'm trying to trick you into bending over.
What I am doing, which newbs probably don't know much about (which is why you should join a *good* corp), is setting up for the future. I'm training in skills I need to build stuff, training and occasionally grinding for standing so I get perfect refinement...tossing blueprints into labs that won't be finished for a very long time...In a few months my toon will actually be able to make ISK rather than suck it up.
The problem with a lot of newbs though is that they want to start out easy and be able to make piles and piles of ISK without working for it. I'm not making much of anything right now. I occasionally do a contract run that looks good but you can bet I'm working from the assumption that it's a scam every time. I play smart and take only those risks I'm willing to suffer. Instead of changing the game to be something else, this is what newbs need to be learning to do. Don't turn Chess into Sorry just because you can't figure it out immediately. |
Marduk Nibiru
Physical Chaos
56
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 17:56:00 -
[220] - Quote
Argyle Jones wrote: I just don't think it's a fair argument to say anyone who falls prey to a gank is lazy and stupid.
/Yargle
I'd agree with this. If you're going to be a miner you need to work from the assumption that you're going to get ganked sometime. You need to learn how to mitigate the issue. Consider your ship cost as part of the operating cost of your ISK making scheme. Don't fly it if you can't afford to lose it. Get out of the pipelines. Consider some tank and/or warp stabs instead of those cargo extenders. Make it cost to kill you. Make it difficult to find you; most gankers are lazy, which is why they're after the lazy kills. I should know, I've done it many times.
For example, mine in some deep hole in some backwater system nobody goes to. Someday you'll get ganked there, but shouldn't be every day like all these newbs cry about. You'll need to do some hauling of course, which makes you vulnerable, but you should still be able to pull a profit.
I don't think that all those that get ganked are lazy or stupid. It's a part of eve. Even PvP players get ganked (anyone saying otherwise hasn't done real PvP yet because there's no way to avoid the surprise butt sex that's out there waiting). The people that are always bitching about it though....I think it IS fair to say they're lazy and/or stupid. |
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
375
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 18:04:00 -
[221] - Quote
somebody tell this guy that hisec is supposed to be safer, not safe.
..or is he trollin'?
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Alaric Faelen
Aquila Venatici
63
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 18:06:00 -
[222] - Quote
It happens. The first mistake is expecting completely 'safe' anything in a game that is obsessive about it's unrestricted PvP. The problem is that mindset, not that people actually will agress you in a space war game.
But newbies aren't really worth bothering with, and Eve is gigantic. Just move a couple jumps away and **** roids in peace. People that grief newbs are usually little more than that themselves. Actual players have better things to do with their game time. It's actually fairly rare too in my experience- again, you're just not worth it.
Stop trying to mine in the market hub system, jump 2-3 away to some .5 high sec in a dead area and you can continue wasting your time mining all alone.
Pretty much anyone still playing after six months has gone thru the same thing in some capacity. I've been kept from mission running for paltry isk that I made at it, due to a war dec before I ever really understood the rules for it. I simply learned them.
It's also an MMO. If you want to do things in safety, then try numbers. Join a corp, or just one of the free boost fleets always offered in market hub/newbie systems. The ability to steal or agress you unwillingly isn't a 'broken' mechanic- it's that any resource needs protecting, so you should be thinking of adding armed escort to mining operations, not simply letting you generate reward for no risk.
The can flipper risks little from provoking a newb, but also stands to gain little. The miner gains little solo mining in high sec, but also loses little when said flipper griefs them. That is a balanced system. The higher end of this risk/reward scenario is null sec mining, which pays well but is wide open to attack. Likewise these miners don't just sit in barges watching television, they recognize increased risk for that reward and use armed escort. The people that look to attack these miners risk a great deal more, but of course the reward is substantially higher.
It's not broken. It's you. And we all deal with the same thing, no matter what level we do it at. From newb mining to WH farming- someone will always be there to kill you and steal your stuff. THAT IS EVE.
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Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
29
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Posted - 2012.01.30 21:20:00 -
[223] - Quote
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Also show me the stats for the ones who got away? Where are they recorded, whats supporting those claims?
Well, now you're just being thick headed. You seriously think that everything has a 100% record on the other side of the fence?
Also, multiple times you state you aren't aware of any mechanics and "you don't need to be aware" to have your opinions. And you talk down to people with that attitude? The guy earlier asked you to describe how you could achieve the same thing he does and you just dismiss it but continue to hammer down you views.
Just come out already and admit you want full immunity. It's clear from your posts you're a opinionated scrub with extremely limited experience.
Also post with your main if you believe in what you're saying so much. I am. And yes, I would add you to the watch list, just like you suspect. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
285
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 21:22:00 -
[224] - Quote
he fears for his pixels, he can't post with his main cuz i drop what i'm doing and move to highsec to terrorize everyone in GD that makes bad posts |
YUMAD BRO
Aliastra Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 21:47:00 -
[225] - Quote
Fnkn OP Tard
....I WAN NO GET SHOOTS
.......I NO LIKEY PEWPEW, LEAVE ME LONE!!
.......... I AM A FUKN NUB BOY THAT HAS NO CLUE WHAT THE GAME IS ABOUT.
STFU and live with it or go back to Hello Kitty Island Adveture you TARD.
NUB |
J Kunjeh
357
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 21:56:00 -
[226] - Quote
YUMAD BRO wrote:Fnkn OP Tard
....I WAN NO GET SHOOTS
.......I NO LIKEY PEWPEW, LEAVE ME LONE!!
.......... I AM A FUKN NUB BOY THAT HAS NO CLUE WHAT THE GAME IS ABOUT.
STFU and live with it or go back to Hello Kitty Island Adveture you TARD.
NUB
Wow...you're so coooo...and so hardkore.....can I be just like you? Puweeese? "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
Ehn Roh
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 22:01:00 -
[227] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.
I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.
You can't take the actions you described without getting a warning window or disabling the warning windows. They got what was coming to them.
I'm ok with a better explanation for noobs on what will get them in trouble, but the can mechanics should remain as they are. Either find a more secure way/location to mine or deal with the consequences.
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Tian Nu
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2012.01.30 22:06:00 -
[228] - Quote
if you quit eve cos you lose one nice ship you are not suited to play eve so quiting well is quiter dream. Father O'Malley about Darius III begging for whelp: GÇ£Hows that working out for ya ? I make it 02:21 and all I see is you begging Riverini to get numbers and trying to recruit from the incursion public channel.GÇ¥ |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1808
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 22:08:00 -
[229] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:he fears for his pixels, he can't post with his main cuz i drop what i'm doing and move to highsec to terrorize everyone in GD that makes bad posts
You don't? andski for csm7~ |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
208
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Posted - 2012.01.30 23:24:00 -
[230] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:So, OP...How's all that GTC-financed ISK working out for you? /Me giggles....Locator agent running Is urp-splosion tyme naow? Don't **** your pants when your locator finds. You funding your pvps with gtcs? Very bad habit. You know how to scan at all? Or farm sites.
Ah, no, that seems to be you. Most characters your age can't afford all those shinies, but I've noticed that, invariably, all that do,
A) Finance them through GTCs or illegally bought ISK from a illegitimate seller B) Don't have the faintest clue what to do with/when to use them. (I mean, really: A CONCORD Smokescreen CovOps? On a wet paper aeroplane of a ship? That shows great insight) C) Also invariably, they end up losing them in quite hilarious manners.
Yes, I know quite well how to farm wormhole sites (if that's the type to which you refer), and even better how to scan--If I know more or less where you are from d-scan, then you will be a warpable hit in less than 30 seconds, maximum. Same is true of any decent prober who knows what they're about and has the right ship and equipment.
I also know better than to waste faction missile-launchers on a Tier 1 battlecruiser that is nominally a gun-boat.
At least, I hope that you're using GTCs from an authorised seller, as that's a legit way to "buy ISK" quickly (if, in my view, a bit lame)...I do hope you didn't buy that ISK from...elsewhere. I are kyute kitten! I are in ur mishun! Redoosin' teh lag by ninja'ing ur wrekz! (CCP: Make wrecks probable, and after 30min., tractorable.) |
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
286
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 23:33:00 -
[231] - Quote
the above post is why npc forum alts exist |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
547
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 23:40:00 -
[232] - Quote
OMG, some of those fits make me want to punch myself... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
286
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 23:41:00 -
[233] - Quote
Andski wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:he fears for his pixels, he can't post with his main cuz i drop what i'm doing and move to highsec to terrorize everyone in GD that makes bad posts You don't? http://dthi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12276599
no need to move |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
72
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 00:00:00 -
[234] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:OMG, some of those fits make me want to punch myself...
I just did as a warning to myself not to ever fit ships like that. in other MMO's stupid people are annoying. In EVE they are a valuable resource /facebrick for those times when /facepalm just isn't enough
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Borun Tal
Cubicle Warriors from 'merica
40
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 00:51:00 -
[235] - Quote
tl;dr
Christ, can this thread be full of more fail than (notice i said THAN, and not "THEN") it already does?
OP, I'm sure someone here will tell you where to go for WoW or Hello Kitty Online. |
baltec1
518
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 00:53:00 -
[236] - Quote
I see my fittings advice was quickly forgotten. |
Superterrier
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 01:18:00 -
[237] - Quote
Quick! Firesale your Anathemas! A goon was killed with a ship - nerf incoming! |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
282
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 01:21:00 -
[238] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:he fears for his pixels, he can't post with his main cuz i drop what i'm doing and move to highsec to terrorize everyone in GD that makes bad posts I just so happen to already be in highsec and happen to be looking for work in the space terrorism sector. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 01:30:00 -
[239] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mars Theran wrote: I beg to differ. We had a 20 million Sp requirement on our Wormhole Corp for a reason. Take a Newb into an environment like that, and the best they can hope for is waiting until they can train up Gas-mining, mining, or scanning effectively enough to do something with it. Even then, it's not going to happen overnight, and they are still going to be sitting on their arses for the most part.
This
It's a wormhole Baltec. You get podded it's a one-way trip back to highsec, and you're probably not going to find a way back for a week or two. Do you honestly think one 4-5 minute fight resulting in two weeks seperated from your Corpmates in Highsec is fun? TIIP: The Incredible Invisible Poster |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
108
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 02:35:00 -
[240] - Quote
If you jet can you are asking to get messed with. It you must jet can make a nearby safespot and do short jumps to jet can there. If you get flipped you NEED TO MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE! When I have jet canned I have never been flipped. Why? Because I moved away from starter systems. Get away from starter systems, get away from trade hubs and you can mine in 'relative' peace.
And if you have come to the forums crying about getting can flipped, pick a new profession, because you are now a tear magnet. I know I left a battleship in this station. Wait, you can put ships in Station Containers? ****! I just trashed them. |
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Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
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Posted - 2012.01.31 04:52:00 -
[241] - Quote
Well so far reading all the posts I understand why a lot of people simply not coming to forums. There's very few constructive posts or discussion and mostly spam, threats, insults from one player to another. WAKE UP GUYS! THIS IS A GAME!
You not discussing life critical topics on the front line sitting in a trench with a rifle or fighting for a life changing things. And yet a lot of posts here reads like a "my epeen bigger then yours and that's why im so cool".
Who cares what you fly. How cool you are and how much experience in game you have if a lot of posts here show that people can't discuss things as people but more do so as some kind of underaged low esteem heavily undereducated teens. Which i'm sure they are not. Learn how to discuss even borderline topics instead of just shitting on the forums. And what ship you fly or how many kills you got is completely irrelevant to ability to discuss things.
CCP you wonder why people not post on your forums for discussion and most not even read them? Read the thread. That's why. But may be that's the policy of yours. |
Spineker
145
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 05:01:00 -
[242] - Quote
Barely literate basement dwellers I bet they have small Epeens especially null sec. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
290
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 05:02:00 -
[243] - Quote
I handled the OP already back on page 3, now we are discussing how pr0 the anathema is |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2012.01.31 05:02:00 -
[244] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Well so far reading all the posts I understand why a lot of people simply not coming to forums. There's very few constructive posts or discussion and mostly spam, threats, insults from one player to another. WAKE UP GUYS! THIS IS A GAME!
You not discussing life critical topics on the front line sitting in a trench with a rifle or fighting for a life changing things. And yet a lot of posts here reads like a "my epeen bigger then yours and that's why im so cool".
Who cares what you fly. How cool you are and how much experience in game you have if a lot of posts here show that people can't discuss things as people but more do so as some kind of underaged low esteem heavily undereducated teens. Which i'm sure they are not. Learn how to discuss even borderline topics instead of just shitting on the forums. And what ship you fly or how many kills you got is completely irrelevant to ability to discuss things.
CCP you wonder why people not post on your forums for discussion and most not even read them? Read the thread. That's why. But may be that's the policy of yours.
Understand the sentiment Alex, but the sooner you conclude to the level of selfishness and inability to be mature about something not so critical as you put it, it's better to be apathetic to using the general forum for serious discussion.
You have to follow the norm in EvE, most people are puppets who prescribe how to play and cannot accomodate others or be capable of out of the box thinking. As its more important to be popular in EvE than have integrity. As players simply want to ensure they are getting their in game bacon and classically dont give a crap about your standpoint they will argue tooth and nail for every last crumb about their position regardless. Sad truth, but you'll just get emotionally confused and frustrated if you persist in trying to overcome it, imho.
Just raise your points in "Features and Ideas" forum if it helps, there is "less" of the trollish behaviour. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
282
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 05:04:00 -
[245] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Well so far reading all the posts I understand why a lot of people simply not coming to forums. There's very few constructive posts or discussion and mostly spam, threats, insults from one player to another. WAKE UP GUYS! THIS IS A GAME!
You not discussing life critical topics on the front line sitting in a trench with a rifle or fighting for a life changing things. And yet a lot of posts here reads like a "my epeen bigger then yours and that's why im so cool".
Who cares what you fly. How cool you are and how much experience in game you have if a lot of posts here show that people can't discuss things as people but more do so as some kind of underaged low esteem heavily undereducated teens. Which i'm sure they are not. Learn how to discuss even borderline topics instead of just shitting on the forums. And what ship you fly or how many kills you got is completely irrelevant to ability to discuss things.
CCP you wonder why people not post on your forums for discussion and most not even read them? Read the thread. That's why. But may be that's the policy of yours. Didn't you hear? EVE is real. |
Spineker
145
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 05:05:00 -
[246] - Quote
Damn it I am always late.
There is reverse jet can system. Especially for epeens in their T2 shitships
However they generally run then so not so much fun. |
kenxi
GLOBAL DISSENSION KRYSIS.
27
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Posted - 2012.01.31 05:12:00 -
[247] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Well so far reading all the posts I understand why a lot of people simply not coming to forums. There's very few constructive posts or discussion and mostly spam, threats, insults from one player to another. WAKE UP GUYS! THIS IS A GAME!
You not discussing life critical topics on the front line sitting in a trench with a rifle or fighting for a life changing things. And yet a lot of posts here reads like a "my epeen bigger then yours and that's why im so cool".
Who cares what you fly. How cool you are and how much experience in game you have if a lot of posts here show that people can't discuss things as people but more do so as some kind of underaged low esteem heavily undereducated teens. Which i'm sure they are not. Learn how to discuss even borderline topics instead of just shitting on the forums. And what ship you fly or how many kills you got is completely irrelevant to ability to discuss things.
CCP you wonder why people not post on your forums for discussion and most not even read them? Read the thread. That's why. But may be that's the policy of yours.
Came looking for tears and ran outta jars on page 3!
OP go to the fridge get the rum and coke and have a few your way to riled.
It happens to everyone and I mean everyone who has ever mined in eve To be frank your friend is better off gone. Perhaps he will eventually come back I know ive raged quit a few times The % of morons is always greater than what you would expect it to be unless you always assume 100% of people are morons |
NaturalBeast
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
19
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Posted - 2012.01.31 05:20:00 -
[248] - Quote
OP: Take a step back and think about something. Do you want to play a game that is boring, predictable and a complete waste of time?
Or do you want a sandbox type game that allows you to have a bit of fun and blow up pixels. And in the process know that you actually impacted another player in some way. But in the end, nothing has changed. You still have food in the fridge and your car is still in the driveway.
But maybe just maybe you relieved some stress and had some fun. Don't take things so seriously here and you will do fine.
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Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2012.01.31 05:33:00 -
[249] - Quote
NaturalBeast wrote:OP: Take a step back and think about something. Do you want to play a game that is boring, predictable and a complete waste of time?
Or do you want a sandbox type game that allows you to have a bit of fun and blow up pixels. And in the process know that you actually impacted another player in some way.
The funny thing about this is why people are incapable of seeing that the game does and can accomodate "both" the avenues you are "flavouring" with your descriptions. |
Ai Shun
210
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 05:37:00 -
[250] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
I could tell you the opposite story.
A friend of mine joined EVE Online and while I set out on an Industrial, production and Hauling career he was soon skimming along the outskirts, looking for opportunities for larceny. Within a few weeks he was raking in three or four times the ISK I was, having fun flipping cans, stealing salvage and generally behaving badly. Occasionally he'd be blown up, other times it would be the reverse.
He LOVED that.
Until he realised how insignificant the fun he was having was in terms of ISK. Especially when he compared it to the same old same old grind of Missions (No Incursions at the time) and the ability to purchase PLEX.
So he left. He left something he enjoyed doing.
It was a ******* shame.
Now, if I were to apply your logic, I could say that L4 Missions and PLEX are turning away players and if CCP wanted to do anything to save their game they'd need to remove those from the game. But that would be illogical, wouldn't it? Because it would be entirely anecdotal and the only problem here was my friend. He understood the concept of EVE Online, but he was disgusted by how World of Warcraftish some aspects of it was. Your story is effectively the reverse; but no less anecdotal.
Be careful of making a judgement on a game based off one experience; rather try to savour the full flavour and understand the glorious whole of New Eden which is Null, High, Low, Tritanium, Tengus, Sansha and all the rest melted together.
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Spineker
145
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Posted - 2012.01.31 05:50:00 -
[251] - Quote
Even though I dislike 0.0 Epeen corps and alliances if you want to mine join one they are happy to have industrials and will come to your defense in most cases and if your fancy mining ship gets whacked they will most likely help you replace it. 0.0 is industrial friendly and they will kill and fight to defend them. In most cases anyway and not the crap corps just looking for taxes but the ones who actually understand industrial characters make the galaxy spin.
In most intelligent corps a mining op getting attacked is all hands on deck. That is considering they don't already have CAP over one.
You will get rich unlike mining Trit in Highsec.
Not only that but you will mine far more interesting ores. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 06:21:00 -
[252] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t. I could tell you the opposite story. A friend of mine joined EVE Online and while I set out on an Industrial, production and Hauling career he was soon skimming along the outskirts, looking for opportunities for larceny. Within a few weeks he was raking in three or four times the ISK I was, having fun flipping cans, stealing salvage and generally behaving badly. Occasionally he'd be blown up, other times it would be the reverse. He LOVED that. Until he realised how insignificant the fun he was having was in terms of ISK. Especially when he compared it to the same old same old grind of Missions (No Incursions at the time) and the ability to purchase PLEX. So he left. He left something he enjoyed doing. It was a ******* shame. Now, if I were to apply your logic, I could say that L4 Missions and PLEX are turning away players and if CCP wanted to do anything to save their game they'd need to remove those from the game. But that would be illogical, wouldn't it? Because it would be entirely anecdotal and the only problem here was my friend. He understood the concept of EVE Online, but he was disgusted by how World of Warcraftish some aspects of it was. Your story is effectively the reverse; but no less anecdotal. Be careful of making a judgement on a game based off one experience; rather try to savour the full flavour and understand the glorious whole of New Eden which is Null, High, Low, Tritanium, Tengus, Sansha and all the rest melted together.
I agree that there's always two sides of the medal. What I wanted to do with this post is to raise the discussion so that players share their thoughts on how to may be balance things a bit so that newbies won't rage quit before they even get a taste of real eve and a bit older players won't die out of boredom. Removing ganking completely would be terrible for both sides but balancing it more so that it will actually become blockade running for ones and hunting for others instead of what we got now. May be restricting can flipping to 0.7 and lower with better ores or somehow balancing it so it won't drive miners crazy because 40 minutes of their work went out of window and still be interesting for flippers. I wanted discussion, ideas, creativity. Instead I got mindless trolling and insults from one player to another and these aren't some teenagers but a grown ups with a lot of education and life experience. It's frustrating and disappointing. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
112
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 06:49:00 -
[253] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.
I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.
^^ Is not a question to start a debate, a wine story, a few flimsy flammable comments, a question to CCP and some insults to the veteran's of the game. What did you think would happen? Have you read the forums? I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 07:34:00 -
[254] - Quote
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.
I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game. ^^ Is not a question to start a debate, a wine story, a few flimsy flammable comments, a question to CCP and some insults to the veteran's of the game. What did you think would happen? Have you read the forums?
As far as I see on these forums debates only who's epeen is bigger. A few rare reasonable posts here and there drowning in flood of epeens big and bigger shouts and that's that. Community? There's no community here. I kind of expected more from grown ups. I was wrong. |
NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
162
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 07:38:00 -
[255] - Quote
I will admit i did not read this whole thread but i got a rather good idea on what the op is trying to say.
You feel that EVE is to harsh on a new player,not because you have exsperiensed it like that your self,but because a friend of a friend told you that was the case? Did someone tell this person that they should consider trying to mine in a less populated system,maybe get away from the starting system and dont stick around in areas where they do get can flipped?
If your friends decided that moving away from that system,or finding other ways around it (ninja mining,using a GSC or similar) to avoid getting can flipped was to much of an effort,or not worth it,they either where looking for an exuse to quit the game or they would rage quit in a couple of months when they got suecide ganked for the first time when they decided it was a good idea to move a bill worth of stuff in a t1 hauler on ap.
People that do enjoy EVE in general (note in general,not saying everyone) enjoy it because you can get scammed,can get your stuff stolen,or have to think to find a solution to a problem.
If CCP changed this,EVE wouldent be the same. Who knows maybe they would get a lot of new players in that would handle playing for 2 or 3 months until they discovered that they loose ships when they fight NPC's. Well if thats a problem CCP could just change it so you dident loose your ship but would respawn in the closest station with your fully fitted ship back.
But then they would try to PVP and they loose their stuff they would also rage because they had put so much work into it and put ALL their isk into some fancy faction mods because good stuff makes you "uber". So then CCP could just make it so that when you lost a ship in PVP you got that back as well.
And like that the whole thrill and challange of EVE is more or less gone. The next things on the list would ofc be corp thefts,scamming and all those small things that adds to EVE's atmosphere. But hey..atleast CCP would be sitting with a bunch of players who are just waiting for the next WOW patch to come out and need something to kill time...
I realize this is hard to understand when your new to EVE. It does hurt to loose all your stuff,but its the best way to learn,and you will never repeat the same mistakes again. Do your research,ask around,find a group that actually wants to help and you will hopefully avoid most of the issues that are mentioned here and become a bitter old vet that spends 90% of your time sitting reading the EVE forums shaking your head because of...humorus... threads such as this |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 08:41:00 -
[256] - Quote
NightCrawler 85 wrote:I will admit i did not read this whole thread but i got a rather good idea on what the op is trying to say. You feel that EVE is to harsh on a new player,not because you have exsperiensed it like that your self,but because a friend of a friend told you that was the case? Did someone tell this person that they should consider trying to mine in a less populated system,maybe get away from the starting system and dont stick around in areas where they do get can flipped? If your friends decided that moving away from that system,or finding other ways around it (ninja mining,using a GSC or similar) to avoid getting can flipped was to much of an effort,or not worth it,they either where looking for an exuse to quit the game or they would rage quit in a couple of months when they got suecide ganked for the first time when they decided it was a good idea to move a bill worth of stuff in a t1 hauler on ap. People that do enjoy EVE in general (note in general,not saying everyone) enjoy it because you can get scammed,can get your stuff stolen,or have to think to find a solution to a problem. If CCP changed this,EVE wouldent be the same. Who knows maybe they would get a lot of new players in that would handle playing for 2 or 3 months until they discovered that they loose ships when they fight NPC's. Well if thats a problem CCP could just change it so you dident loose your ship but would respawn in the closest station with your fully fitted ship back. But then they would try to PVP and they loose their stuff they would also rage because they had put so much work into it and put ALL their isk into some fancy faction mods because good stuff makes you "uber". So then CCP could just make it so that when you lost a ship in PVP you got that back as well. And like that the whole thrill and challange of EVE is more or less gone. The next things on the list would ofc be corp thefts,scamming and all those small things that adds to EVE's atmosphere. But hey..atleast CCP would be sitting with a bunch of players who are just waiting for the next WOW patch to come out and need something to kill time... I realize this is hard to understand when your new to EVE. It does hurt to loose all your stuff,but its the best way to learn,and you will never repeat the same mistakes again. Do your research,ask around,find a group that actually wants to help and you will hopefully avoid most of the issues that are mentioned here and become a bitter old vet that spends 90% of your time sitting reading the EVE forums shaking your head because of...humorus... threads such as this
A very well made point. I cannot say anything else but to totally agree and thank you for very valuable and well argumented post that explains it all. For me this thread is closed. Thank you again.
|
Ai Shun
210
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 08:46:00 -
[257] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:I agree that there's always two sides of the medal. What I wanted to do with this post is to raise the discussion so that players share their thoughts on how to may be balance things a bit so that newbies won't rage quit before they even get a taste of real eve and a bit older players won't die out of boredom. Removing ganking completely would be terrible for both sides but balancing it more so that it will actually become blockade running for ones and hunting for others instead of what we got now. May be restricting can flipping to 0.7 and lower with better ores or somehow balancing it so it won't drive miners crazy because 40 minutes of their work went out of window and still be interesting for flippers.
I can't say something like that sits well with me. The whole purpose of a sandbox type environment is to keep the minimum possible rules; not to introduce more. Those rules restrict the game-play more and turn EVE further away from its original concept. It is meant to be harsh, unforgiving and so forth.
It is better for a new player to learn that the first minute they log-in than to discover that six months down the line when they've invested time, effort and started to enjoy the soft experience you want them to have.
Besides, do you really think can-flipping is THAT big a problem? |
Elistea
G U N G N I R Y G G D R A S I L
52
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 09:13:00 -
[258] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.
Just a short story:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.
CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.
I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.
Well it's dog eat dog world here. U have to adapt or die. Everyone was at your stage. Anyway there's been enuf trolling so i won't add any moar. Instead lemme give ya some hints. If u insist on jetcan mining - find some nice quiet system off the main traveling routes and missioning systems with close to none traffic. Or do same thing as most of ppl in EVE - make 2nd account and use it to support your main. Also if you feel like having fun and want some revenge u can set up some nice traps for can flippers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U
|
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 09:23:00 -
[259] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:I agree that there's always two sides of the medal. What I wanted to do with this post is to raise the discussion so that players share their thoughts on how to may be balance things a bit so that newbies won't rage quit before they even get a taste of real eve and a bit older players won't die out of boredom. Removing ganking completely would be terrible for both sides but balancing it more so that it will actually become blockade running for ones and hunting for others instead of what we got now. May be restricting can flipping to 0.7 and lower with better ores or somehow balancing it so it won't drive miners crazy because 40 minutes of their work went out of window and still be interesting for flippers. I can't say something like that sits well with me. The whole purpose of a sandbox type environment is to keep the minimum possible rules; not to introduce more. Those rules restrict the game-play more and turn EVE further away from its original concept. It is meant to be harsh, unforgiving and so forth. It is better for a new player to learn that the first minute they log-in than to discover that six months down the line when they've invested time, effort and started to enjoy the soft experience you want them to have. Besides, do you really think can-flipping is THAT big a problem?
Can flipping is not a huge problem but not last one. It can be compared to a beautiful sunset on the beach but with mosquitos swarms flying around each hour or two as far as I understand from newbies. It never bothers you on higher level of skills but when you fly catalyst as mining ship it does adds annoyance feeling more then anything else. Eve is more of a social type of mmo, so it requires some time for ppl to wish to disregard some of a more obvious bugs and wait for fixes then to go look for something similar but single player. Many of us started Eve because it's spaceships game. |
baltec1
518
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 10:14:00 -
[260] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mars Theran wrote: I beg to differ. We had a 20 million Sp requirement on our Wormhole Corp for a reason. Take a Newb into an environment like that, and the best they can hope for is waiting until they can train up Gas-mining, mining, or scanning effectively enough to do something with it. Even then, it's not going to happen overnight, and they are still going to be sitting on their arses for the most part.
This It's a wormhole Baltec. You get podded it's a one-way trip back to highsec, and you're probably not going to find a way back for a week or two. Do you honestly think one 4-5 minute fight resulting in two weeks seperated from your Corpmates in Highsec is fun?
So teach them. Get them probing, salvage, building stuff, scouting wormhole exits ect. If they die, find your WH exit and have them come back. The skills a little nubbins can learn out in a WH are invaluable and even if they decide its not for them they will at least have a much better grasp of the game thanks to you.
Grabbing a nubbins early is one of the best things to do if you want to expand a corp as most of them want to learn and are very keen to do things. Give them a rifter, a MWD and a warp disrupter and just watch them fly in and try to tackle a dread in the middle of a fight.
The best way to help nubs is to snap them up and teach them, stuffing more cotton wool around them will only result in greater rage quits when they do something stupid in an even more expensive ship. |
|
Citizen Smif
Plantains
66
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 16:24:00 -
[261] - Quote
This thread is so ******** I can't even bring myself to write a meaningful comment. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
429
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 17:45:00 -
[262] - Quote
I wish the warning message said "If someone took your goods and put them into their own can, they are baiting you and plan to come back and ruin your day".
No one will read it, but at least it'd be a better warning. Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.-áPeace out Zulu! Hope you land well! |
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 18:58:00 -
[263] - Quote
OMG!!! U poor babies!...
Look, a long looong time ago, i used to mine in a megathron in 0.4 (this was when there were no miningbarges and i was a total nub myself)
A few guys warped in, webbed, scrambled and jammed me and almost shot my precious hardearned ship from under me.
My drones saved my hiney! Because i managed to crawl out of scramble/web range and warp out (ogres ruled then)
So... instead of crying about it and emoragequitting, guess what i did? i kitted out my thron with some anti jamming kit (OH YES, THIS STUFF DOES EXIST!) and a full combat suit and a single mininglaser as bait and warped back to the same system and the same belt, and lo and behold, here come the villains, ready to finish the job this time... or so they think!
I let the drones fly, launched my cruises and let my dual 250mm rip, while doing some webbing and jamming myself and had the scoundrels running for cover!
Everytime i think of that, i still chuckle! |
Dors Venabily
United Starbase Systems
16
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 19:12:00 -
[264] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:I don't see a problem with flippers... maybe thats because I learned the first time it happened not to shoot/take from the can.
And for the record, when I was a noob I didn't jetcan mine after the first incident... I flew back and forth in my little frigate. Aptly named the Tormentor. When i was a noob i learned that too. But when we both were noobs can flippers as it seems wasn't that much of a problem. Today is a whole different story. If you not jetcan they just fly in and bump you interfering with your activities. At least that what i hear'd from people in High sec. I'm not in High and not imagining myself there. But i know a few noob corps run by friends. It's worse then it was when i was noob.
While I do not agree with the OP entirely and think that a yellow can is enough of a hint [it used to be same color] I must say that that the players base went down the drain with any "morals".
I know it is relative but there are some things that are outright pathetic to do no matter if you pvp or no and bothering new folks fresh into the game who when killed do not even drop anything of value to you, is just being an *******.
Nothing to do with PVP the noob kill mail is not worth a dam since he has cheap fittings.
The only reason here is to grief and this is the only MMO that does not ban you for that so over time this type of players collect here.
LOLz tearz you MAD blah blah teenage epeen bull.
Could not care less personally for digital pixels and it is within the legal regulation of this game but really are you that bored ? If you really take pleasure in this please seek professional help, If you are that bored there are plenty of other PVP opportunities around.
edit:
Oh yeah and the OP's friends or whoever were chickenshits but still shooting nubblets come on |
YUMAD BRO
Aliastra Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 10:43:00 -
[265] - Quote
Dors Venabily wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:I don't see a problem with flippers... maybe thats because I learned the first time it happened not to shoot/take from the can.
And for the record, when I was a noob I didn't jetcan mine after the first incident... I flew back and forth in my little frigate. Aptly named the Tormentor. When i was a noob i learned that too. But when we both were noobs can flippers as it seems wasn't that much of a problem. Today is a whole different story. If you not jetcan they just fly in and bump you interfering with your activities. At least that what i hear'd from people in High sec. I'm not in High and not imagining myself there. But i know a few noob corps run by friends. It's worse then it was when i was noob. While I do not agree with the OP entirely and think that a yellow can is enough of a hint [it used to be same color] I must say that that the players base went down the drain with any "morals". I know it is relative but there are some things that are outright pathetic to do no matter if you pvp or no and bothering new folks fresh into the game who when killed do not even drop anything of value to you, is just being an *******. Nothing to do with PVP the noob kill mail is not worth a dam since he has cheap fittings. The only reason here is to grief and this is the only MMO that does not ban you for that so over time this type of players collect here. LOLz tearz you MAD blah blah teenage epeen bull. Could not care less personally for digital pixels and it is within the legal regulation of this game but really are you that bored ? If you really take pleasure in this please seek professional help, If you are that bored there are plenty of other PVP opportunities around. edit: Oh yeah and the OP's friends or whoever were chickenshits but still shooting nubblets come on
so ummm.....is that your main? and how many people are in your corp? hopefully well over 100 all just like you :) |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
294
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 11:31:00 -
[266] - Quote
Dors Venabily wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:I don't see a problem with flippers... maybe thats because I learned the first time it happened not to shoot/take from the can.
And for the record, when I was a noob I didn't jetcan mine after the first incident... I flew back and forth in my little frigate. Aptly named the Tormentor. When i was a noob i learned that too. But when we both were noobs can flippers as it seems wasn't that much of a problem. Today is a whole different story. If you not jetcan they just fly in and bump you interfering with your activities. At least that what i hear'd from people in High sec. I'm not in High and not imagining myself there. But i know a few noob corps run by friends. It's worse then it was when i was noob. While I do not agree with the OP entirely and think that a yellow can is enough of a hint [it used to be same color] I must say that that the players base went down the drain with any "morals". I know it is relative but there are some things that are outright pathetic to do no matter if you pvp or no and bothering new folks fresh into the game who when killed do not even drop anything of value to you, is just being an *******. SNIP The first time I was can-flipped, I had no idea what was going on, took my can back, and got popped. Probably in my 2nd week of playing.
The second time, I popped THEM with my Drake ';;'. They were red flagged for me...and I went back to the same belt and THEY WERE STILL THERE.
Not only are they (ahem) rude, they are STUPID. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Yakahama Musashi
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 12:31:00 -
[267] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Maybe America is the only place with 'Freshman Hazing". That's all it is. And one does NOT quit school because of 'hazing'. No backbone whatsoever. And looking for sympathy on these Forums is a Fool's Errand.
I was 'hazed' on my first day as a 'freshman' and I hospitalised the guy and his buddy who did it. I guess they should have checked exactly which sports scholarship I was on....
The College informed my parents that I seemed to have social issues and didn't play well with others, my dad told them "Yes, that's him - do we have a problem?"
I could NEVER say my parents "didn't understand me" like some of my angsty classmates always claimed
I feel sorry for newbies to this game though, it's harsh and I'm not sure if CCP even know how harsh it can be for them. Still, as long as we all keep buying monocles, they have nothing to worry about, huh?
|
Janus Nightmare
ECP Incorporated
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 12:40:00 -
[268] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Just a heads up here for the unaware. Bored Vets couldn't care less whether new players start playing EVE; in fact, best I can tell, most of them would rather they didn't. This is why people who 'carebear' or come and 'whine' on the forums get told to gtfo and go play WoW. I should have thought that was obvious.
All noobs can do effectively is "carebear". You cant take them to W-Space or Null right away. They need skill books, they want to stay close to their starting locations, they want to wander around. And they not used to idea that ship is expendable. And they dont like that idea. It takes some time for them to get used to it and gain experience. All what flippers and gankers effectively do is making people angry and out of the game.
Bullshit. I've seen noobs hop into chat, get told to join a player corp, do so, and start pewpewing within just a few days of starting the game. It only takes a few weeks to decently fit a Rifter and start fighting back, the problem is many people don't realize they can do it.
Look, I'm about as carebear as they come, and I'm sick of other carebears whining because of can flippers/gankers. If players join this game thinking they're going to be coddled and helped along until they're ultra-mega-power-boomship is ready for them, then they're playing the wrong game to begin with. |
Janus Nightmare
ECP Incorporated
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 12:43:00 -
[269] - Quote
As an aside... there used to be rules about griefing noobs. Do those no longer apply?
If I remember correctly, it was something like you couldn't grief a noob in certain systems in certain classes of ships? Honestly, it's been so long I don't remember. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 12:50:00 -
[270] - Quote
Janus Nightmare wrote:As an aside... there used to be rules about griefing noobs. Do those no longer apply?
If I remember correctly, it was something like you couldn't grief a noob in certain systems in certain classes of ships? Honestly, it's been so long I don't remember.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4745
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 12:55:00 -
[271] - Quote
Janus Nightmare wrote:As an aside... there used to be rules about griefing noobs. Do those no longer apply? They're still there, and they still apply. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
485
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 13:34:00 -
[272] - Quote
Janus Nightmare wrote: If players join this game thinking they're going to be coddled and helped along until they're ultra-mega-power-boomship is ready for them, then they're playing the wrong game to begin with.
+1 |
Alaric Faelen
Black Rebel Rifter Club
64
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 08:11:00 -
[273] - Quote
It is true that Eve is pretty brutal to new players. It's a lot thrown at you, some of it needlessly complicated, and often the pay off for putting up with it isn't worth it.
But you have to understand it only gets worse. You learn the rules as you go, but the ability for other people to do massive damage to you only ever increases as you move along in the game. You think can flipping sets you back, wait until 150 ships blob your moon mining operation and cost you billions- all well within their rights too. It's just high end can flipping.
What you think is griefing is just the ground floor of the PvP nature of Eve. It's a microcosm of the larger game you're aiming toward. Just like solo mining in high sec is the ground floor of industrial giants, can flipping / war decs are the ground floor of piracy and alliance dominance of whole systems. It's part of a progression, get used to it.
It's also as I said before- the problem is anyone expecting reward for zero risk. One must be balanced with the other. Too many people expect to be well rewarded for zero-risk gameplay. If the rewards were as modest as the risk that people seem to be willing to tolerate, they'd have a case.
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Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
226
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Posted - 2012.02.02 08:38:00 -
[274] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.
You do realize that the current state of eve, caters to highsec carebears more then ever before in eve history? Concord is stronger and faster. Game mechanics have been changed to save you from RR chain ganks etc,
What is this "buff to gankers' strategy and when will CCP start using it? I havent seen a ganker buff in.... literally ever. |
Weiland Taur
Ceptic Innovations Rebel Alliance of New Eden
24
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Posted - 2012.02.02 16:11:00 -
[275] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Alex Sinai wrote:
It's not the point of the post where they are in High sec. The point of the post is simple. Can flippers and gankers in High sec are bad for the game. They make people leave more effectively then anything else in the game.
Welp, I'M STILL HERE. Sheesh. Maybe affects 5% of noobs........... Maybe America is the only place with 'Freshman Hazing". That's all it is. And one does NOT quit school because of 'hazing'. No backbone whatsoever. And looking for sympathy on these Forums is a Fool's Errand.
Damn Krixtal when did you become the Dark Lord of Mining. The dark side is strong in this one...
Sadly this immediate 'Hazing," might have something to do with Eve's pathetic growth numbers, and yes not breaking half a million in over seven years is pathetic. Of course it might also have something to do with recycled gameplay and sniping high school politics. I for one think another couple hundred thousand real players might be a good thing instead of what I imagine are 50 plus thousand pulses attached to god knows how many alts.
And yes Kirxtal, lots of kids leave school in the United States due to social pressures and general bullying, etc...
Concorde should pod and we would see flippers being selective about targets instead of epeen stroking in the faces of noobs. |
Gazmin VanBurin
The Tower Of Nevaurus The 99 Percent
62
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Posted - 2012.02.02 16:27:00 -
[276] - Quote
I like how most carebears assume that new players are joining the game to be like them. let met tell you a short story
I was camping a 0.0 gate solo in a rupture when a thrasher jumps in on me and emediatly locks me up and starts to shoot me. While I was planing on trying to kill him as he ran, he didn't run which trew me off.. was he trying to get me to agress for an alt of a fleet? well I burn off the gate and kill him because hell im just in a rupture and im aglie. he had no back up, and only a half decent fit, i convoed him and asked why he attacked, and he said "because if I take the offensive I can posibly kill bigger ships" he was less than a month old, he had lost a good 50 thrashers, but had actualy killed a good 30 other ships from friggs to a few cruisers, some decently fit.
I trained tha newbe to pvp and gave him ships and isk when ever i could spare some, he was my newbe hero, he came to this game looking for a harsh space battlefield where he could kill people not npcs, and he found it. why do carebears what to take that away from some one who generaly loves this game for what it is? |
Jensen Blayloc
Galtech Alloy and Nanotech Group
3
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Posted - 2012.02.02 16:49:00 -
[277] - Quote
I am having a hard time staying awake reading this so I will just skip to my point..
Here is an idea..
If the can isn't yours, LEAVE IT THE #$%^ ALONE. |
Marduk Nibiru
Physical Chaos
57
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Posted - 2012.02.02 17:11:00 -
[278] - Quote
Gazmin VanBurin wrote:I like how most carebears assume that new players are joining the game to be like them. let met tell you a short story
I was camping a 0.0 gate solo in a rupture when a thrasher jumps in on me and emediatly locks me up and starts to shoot me. While I was planing on trying to kill him as he ran, he didn't run which trew me off.. was he trying to get me to agress for an alt of a fleet? well I burn off the gate and kill him because hell im just in a rupture and im aglie. he had no back up, and only a half decent fit, i convoed him and asked why he attacked, and he said "because if I take the offensive I can posibly kill bigger ships" he was less than a month old, he had lost a good 50 thrashers, but had actualy killed a good 30 other ships from friggs to a few cruisers, some decently fit.
I trained tha newbe to pvp and gave him ships and isk when ever i could spare some, he was my newbe hero, he came to this game looking for a harsh space battlefield where he could kill people not npcs, and he found it. why do carebears what to take that away from some one who generaly loves this game for what it is?
To be fair, nerfing can-flipping somehow wouldn't have any effect on whether your little story could happen or not.
The only thing that killing can-flipping would do is impede on the legitimate tactic of taking things which don't belong to you when they're not secured.
This is a game where thievery and piracy are actively allowed and encouraged. They are part of the game. Can flipping is at the heart of this. If you don't like it, then find a game that does NOT have player allowed piracy.
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Gazmin VanBurin
The Tower Of Nevaurus The 99 Percent
62
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Posted - 2012.02.02 17:40:00 -
[279] - Quote
wouldn't directly effect that persons first piracy and pvp experiance no, but I have known others to start with can fliping before piracy, and nerfing it would take away that step for their underhanded life style progression, if you see my point. |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
31
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Posted - 2012.02.02 17:57:00 -
[280] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:Alexandra Delarge wrote:Terrible CEOs ruin the experience of new players. Join a better corp. Terrible mechanics ruin the experience of new players. Join a better game. How in the world terrible CEOs stay CEOs in corps in EVE. Obvious troll.
Some newbs don't know that their CEO is terrible because they have no experience of what it is like to be in a decent corp run by a good CEO. Terrible CEOs prey on the newbs ignorance because older players, who can tell the difference between a good and a bad corp, will not join.
90% of the new players complaining about hisec war decs are in ****** little corps run by morons. There are 1000's of new players who joined a good corp, got war decced and had fun while learning a valuable lesson. If a CEO cannot offer his newbs protection from big bad meanies in hisec then he shouln't be in charge of a corp in the first place.
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Wacktopia
Noir.
159
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Posted - 2012.02.02 20:39:00 -
[281] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Janus Nightmare wrote: If players join this game thinking they're going to be coddled and helped along until they're ultra-mega-power-boomship is ready for them, then they're playing the wrong game to begin with. +1
+1 Apparently we're getting censored now. |
Duck Mouth
Nebula Mining and Manufacturing
0
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Posted - 2012.02.02 23:19:00 -
[282] - Quote
Alex Sinai wrote:
Very creative and thinking post. Shows so much intellect.
EVE is by far not harsh and totally not PVP environment. EVE is a walk in the park with BLOBS that by mistake or intention somehow called PVP. Just take a good look around. The rest not deserve any comment.
EVE is a PvP environment. And it is not dominated by blobs unless you are doing ns/ls roams or warfare. obviously you got ganked 1v1 to a guy in a frigate because you're a noob and don't know how to properly mine.
Wacktopia wrote:Velicitia wrote:Janus Nightmare wrote: If players join this game thinking they're going to be coddled and helped along until they're ultra-mega-power-boomship is ready for them, then they're playing the wrong game to begin with. +1 +1
+1
when you sign up for EVE Online, you have to click past a page that says "EVE IS HARD" |
Alaric Faelen
Black Rebel Rifter Club
66
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Posted - 2012.02.03 00:42:00 -
[283] - Quote
All the newb mewling strikes me a funny now that my job title is 'Pirate Scum' and I have just as big of a whine about NOT being able to kill people. The war dec mechanic is broken. Any corp can shed a war dec with no penalty to them and no gain to the pirates they 'surrendered' to. (yeah- if you surrender, why don't you actually lose anything? And if we 'won' then why don't we benefit?)
The only newbs getting ganked in belts mining are dumb and lazy and sit in market hub belts. I'm a pirate, and let me tell you that Eve is just too big for me to fly to every belt in every high sec system nearby hoping to catch some newb in a Retriever humping roids. But I sure can swing by the belts in a market hub while I'm there anyway.......
I'm not a very good pirate, so my security status still allows me in high sec. But anyone that is dedicated to space crime isn't even going to be able to move in high sec before very long. If a can flipper scares you, best quit Eve now before you run into a truly dangerous pirate.
Can flipping is a newb activity. There is nothing in it for actual players. It's just a newb hoping another newb will be dumb enough to give up a KM for e-peen purposes. I've never heard a gang of actual, adult, dedicated players ever suggest flipping cans on newbs. People will sit around bubble camps and gates for hours on end- and no one says "this is boring, let's go flip cans in newb systems." You'd be laughed back into an NPC corp.
It might all seem dramatic to a newb- but believe me newbs, it all teaches you the game mechanics you need to know. It really isn't that long before you are simply past worrying about such things- or you might even find yourself on the other side, a bad guy yourself.... It's a steep learning curve, but it's fairly brief. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
56
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Posted - 2012.02.03 17:34:00 -
[284] - Quote
Interestingly you want to see all the Ninja activity going on around the SOE arc.
Plenty of players flauting their epeen in that system, bad mouthing and dueling to see who is top honcho.
Whilst at the same time simply preying on newbs just out of the tutorial missions. Likley an early exposure to realities, but its the way that they claim to be so amazing PvP experts as a result.
Local in Arnon is awash with epeen "smacktalk". Still it's one step up from the banable can flipping activity in the tutorial systems I suppose. |
A'Brantox Foson
16
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Posted - 2012.02.03 17:47:00 -
[285] - Quote
This thread is everything eve isn't, except of course the bits where it is. |
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