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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 12:59:00 -
[1]
Why should anybody use torps pre Rev 3?
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:27:00 -
[2]
Quote:
Originally by: Melor Rend less skills and no cap usage?
if you start a character from scratch it takes longer to train for torps doing comparable dps to blaster than if you go straight to large neutrons! (if you dontbelieve me check evemon:)
Quote: + Can hit faster targets better then large guns
- with a tech I torp you hit a 4k moving ishtar for 0.01 dmg
Quote:
+ only need about 3-4 mil SP to use effectivly
then you are not gonna squeeze blaster dps out of em.
Quote: - have no other drawbacks except not so great DPS but they have many other things to help them get over that
you never i
Quote:
Blasters pre-Rev3 + Do alot of DPS
still applies.
Quote: ~ can't track small or fast targets
neither can torps.
Quote: - Need tracking to hit stuff
missiles are affected by velocity and sigradius
Quote: - have super short ranges (under 10km)
missiles effective range is affected by the targets movement and speed. you never gonna achieve those 30k max range on a raven post rev 3 except shooting stationary targets.
Quote: - need 5-6 mil SP to use effectivly
same applies for torps if you want to do comparable blaster dmg.
Quote: Now let's look at Post-Rev3:
Torps Post-Rev3
+ No tracking problems
wrong missiles are affected by targets speed and sig radius.
Quote:
+ only need about 3-4 mil SP to use effectivly
wrong see above
Quote: + Do alot of DPS (roughly the same as blasters!!!)
true but the blaster botes have a huge dronebay to compensate.
Quote: ~ have 30km range (thats worse then before but still 5 times more then blasters)
see above
Quote: ~ need a target painter to do full DPS (but blasters need a web to hit anything fast and that has a 10 times shorter range then a painter!)
but teh web does not go to your tank slots
Quote:
- no drawbacks
lol
Quote: Post-Rev3 Blasters have a super short range but still do the same amount of DPS and still use cap to fire. The torps now do the same DPS as blasters, with 30km range, no cap usage and nearly no other drawbacks.
dont forget the drones AND your tackling/ewar slots
Quote: This doesn't bring any balance! It's ten times worse then it was before! Instead of balancing the short-range BS guns so torps and blasters are about the same (if you look at all their pros and contras) you made blasters utterly obsolete with all the contras they used to have and removed all the contra-points from torps.
+ Mega does equivalent dps to a Raven + Mega does better dmg to smaller and fast targets (tracking bonus + can fit a WEB!) + Mega can tackle while not gimping its tank
Quote: What sense do blasters still have in BS sized combat?
Same as now...
Quote: Currently on SiSi there is no good reason to use blasters over torps that I can see... is that the case or am i missing something? How did the Devs plan this to pan out?
I use alot with my raven a... |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:31:00 -
[3]
Quote: Blasters have super short ranges (under 10km)
My neutrons hit just fine at 17+16k on my rokh My neutrons hit just fine at 11+16k on my mega
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:34:00 -
[4]
Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:36:44
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 Why should anybody use torps pre Rev 3?
- nearly 10 times better range then blasters - No cap usage - only 3 mil SP needed
But I know what you mean.
It's not that i don't think torps need a boost it's just that now they are boosted far to much.
you need much higher sp investement. ever tryed to fit a torp raven? awu V is your friend. besides as i allready pointed out with 3 mill in missiles you are going to be compettive againsta 6mil sp blaster specced pilot.
no cap usage but no tacklin.. fair tradeoff
we dont need 2 long range missile systems.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:38:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026
Quote: Blasters have super short ranges (under 10km)
My neutrons hit just fine at 17+16k on my rokh My neutrons hit just fine at 11+16k on my mega
Yeah they hit but 17km is at the end of falloff so you don't hit well enough.
I really don't see the problem.. we both tested on SiSi and it's pretty clear it's not balanced imo.
you are not goingto hit anything with torps if your target is moving away from you at specific distance. at least you can hit for 0.01 dmg!
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:39:00 -
[6]
Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:45:32 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:44:00
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 - with a tech I torp you hit a 4k moving ishtar for 0.01 dmg
And my blasters hit an ishtar better? lol at least you do 0,01 dmg.. i do 0,0 because of tracking.
I don't know why you are going all defensive d026.. i know you want your torps boosted and i agree that they do need a boost i'm just saying that it's totally over the top. Instead of making a battle mega VS. raven "fair" it's just as bad as it was pre-rev3 only that the raven is now the winner.
im not sure if you are the alt i think you are. but if you are our fights were extremely balanced in favour of my raven. but considering i have to go full tank while you can fit injector, web, scram you are so much more flexibel in your mega while still doing a ****load of dps whilst i am ONLY a dmg dealer who cant keep ****e in place..
also if you are the alt i think you are:) you have surgical strike IV whilst i have warhead upgrades V. Also we both were either dead or had like 10-40% structure left after each fight. I would say both ships are extremely balanced in the closerange area probably a lil bit in favour of the raven dmg and tank wise but on the other hand you have all those mids free for ew or tackling!
One thing i agree with you tough is that TII Rage Torps deserve a "little" nerf. But imho i feel completely comfortable my Raven beeing able to wtfbbq a Mega:)
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:56:28
Originally by: Stellar Vix Trops take alot less skills/rigs than other missiles do,
to get the full dmg and range out of torps you need arround 5.5mil sp. if you add the tp skills on top you need quite some ew skills which is another 1-2mil sp investement. so stfu with this torps are easy to train bull****e.
Quote: Traget Trajectory and guided missiles are null to torpedos and provide no benifits for them, thus target painters are needed to be maxed out instead.
Wrong Target Navigation Prediction applies to Guided AND Unguided Missiles!
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:29:00 -
[8]
Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 14:31:31
Originally by: Melor Rend Edited by: Melor Rend on 21/11/2007 14:07:11 Edited by: Melor Rend on 21/11/2007 14:03:55
Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:45:32 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:44:00
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 - with a tech I torp you hit a 4k moving ishtar for 0.01 dmg
And my blasters hit an ishtar better? lol at least you do 0,01 dmg.. i do 0,0 because of tracking.
I don't know why you are going all defensive d026.. i know you want your torps boosted and i agree that they do need a boost i'm just saying that it's totally over the top. Instead of making a battle mega VS. raven "fair" it's just as bad as it was pre-rev3 only that the raven is now the winner.
im not sure if you are the alt i think you are. but if you are our fights were extremely balanced in favour of my raven. but considering i have to go full tank while you can fit injector, web, scram you are so much more flexibel in your mega while still doing a ****load of dps whilst i am ONLY a dmg dealer who cant keep ****e in place..
also if you are the alt i think you are:) you have surgical strike IV whilst i have warhead upgrades V. Also we both were either dead or had like 10-40% structure left after each fight. I would say both ships are extremely balanced in the closerange area probably a lil bit in favour of the raven dmg and tank wise but on the other hand you have all those mids free for ew or tackling!
One thing i agree with you tough is that TII Rage Torps deserve a "little" nerf. But imho i feel completely comfortable my Raven beeing able to wtfbbq a Mega:)
I am the alt you think i am and i'd agree with you but the only problem is that most of our battles were pointless because we didn't start at high enough ranges. If we start at my optimal in webrange then it's very balanced as you said but as soon as i have to close 20km to get into optimal then you will remember that it wasn't that tight at all.
Anyway I don't really wanna argue about 2% more or less damage (ie. surgical strike 4 vs 5 etc.) i think the problem is much larger then this.
What I'd like is to hear CCP telling me how they planned the new torps to be balanced compared to blasters - not if a torp does +3% more DPS or not. If torps do the same DPS as a blaster with a longer range and no cap usage then this is a little strange no? Even the in-game description of blasters says that they do crazy DPS but only over very short ranges... now they actually only do a few % more DPS then torps but over 5 times less range. Thats what I don't understand.. how can that be balanced?
I'd probably be fine with the changes if the torps got +20% damage instead of +33%.. it's just that with the +33% damage AND all the advantages of torps over blasters it becomes a little overpowered.
So can anyone explain to me what advantage a blaster now has over a torp? It used to be tradeoff damage VS range.. now it's either "short range with good DPS" (Blasters) or "long range with good DPS and no cap-usage" (Torps). A little wierd no?
Sounds like anyone in their right mind would choose "long range with good DPS and no cap-usage" so that begs the question as to why you would use a weapon system that has more drawbacks with equal DPS at crappy range?
As I said before... it's not a huge imbalance.. if the tradeoff where "much DPS at short range" (blasters) VS. "15% less DPS with 20% more range" then it would be fair.
Fit a tank on your mega and you are fine.. it just happens now that a gank mega < raven at +20k.. Also you would die right now engaging a raven w/ torps at 20-30k
To the post above. No i lost (you had lik 20-30% hull left) fighting with T1 torps.. only started to own you after using TII Rages.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:40:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 One thing i agree with you tough is that TII Rage Torps deserve a "little" nerf. But imho i feel completely comfortable my Raven beeing able to wtfbbq a Mega:)
Oh yeah thats another thing.. you wtfpwned my mega twice with t1 torps when i was using t2 guns even if we started at mega-friendly ranges (~15km) so i don't even wanna imagine how it will be if you use t2 torps and we start at 25km.
I guess we should go test tonight on sisi.
No i lost badly while using T1 torps.. I only started to own you after using TII Rages and a full tank setup but even then you always took me in structure. I have to mention i could have always warped away due to raven not able to fit a scram (if i had fitted one i just sacrificed this few 1000 hp that saved my butt).
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 21:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Veng3ance Edited by: Veng3ance on 21/11/2007 19:34:14
If I hear one more peson say "Electronic warfare on the mega" im gonna ****en hunt you down and you won't be having any children for the sake of saving us the stupidity in the future.
you COULD easily replace your scram with any other mod you wish! you just dont want to tuch your cooky cutter setup!
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Veng3ance Edited by: Veng3ance on 22/11/2007 00:06:38
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Veng3ance Edited by: Veng3ance on 21/11/2007 19:34:14
If I hear one more peson say "Electronic warfare on the mega" im gonna ****en hunt you down and you won't be having any children for the sake of saving us the stupidity in the future.
you COULD easily replace your scram with any other mod you wish! you just dont want to tuch your cooky cutter setup!
Honestly man, for the most part you make good posts. But wtf kind of response is that?
You know damn well that no megathron pilots fit ECM and sensor damps in their spare-mids like has been suggested. Gimme a break.
And no I wont be taking off my web, MWD, or cap booster they are basically required fit on any blaster setup.
i know that mega pilots usualy fit web/scram. but honestly in a gang you rarely gonna tackle anything anyway considering your a bs and have to compete with cruisers and frigs, so the only thing your scram is usualy good for is delivering point number 50 5 mins afetr all ceptors and cruisers allready put theyrs on. so while not flying solo you have 1-2 free mids you could use for sensor boosters, damps, ecm, tracking comps whilst still havig almost identical tank and gank compared to the raven. at the end the mega is just so much more versatile than the raven. but if you you really need the scram then so bee it and next time our gangs pass each other my mega is so gonna trackingdisrupt you that you wont be having any chlidren anymore:)
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 10:39:00 -
[12]
Edited by: d026 on 22/11/2007 10:42:18 Edited by: d026 on 22/11/2007 10:39:54
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 22/11/2007 02:01:58
Raven 6x Siege, 3x BCU, Faction Torps = What?
that depends completely on the targets sig radius.
sig radius over 450 = full dps sig radius lets say 150 (cruiser) = 67% dmg reduction sig radius frig 50 = 90% damage reduction
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 15:45:00 -
[13]
Edited by: d026 on 22/11/2007 15:47:00
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
This would make it so that torps at close range would track anything webbed quite well, but even a battleship with an afterburner could negate most of the damage outside web range.
HOW in the right mind would that be balanced? Besides Rage torps allready have 150m explo velocity..- thus a mega moving 450m/s with a ab would allready negate ****load of dps againsta TIi torp raven..
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.23 03:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius!
No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial.
You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number.
The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948
Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted. you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega. sig radius matter so your 990 prossible rage torp dps are true ON A STATIONARY TARGET WITH >=530 sig radius which is bigger than a bs
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.23 16:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: d026
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted.
But the target will be painted, much like any target my Blaster Rokh goes after will be webbed and scrambled despite me not fitting a webber or a scrambler.
...and then you go off on your tutorial again and go as far as to use rage as your example to skew things to your side of the argument. Most of us know about signature radius and explosion velocity, most of us know the typical sig radius of each ship class. Anyone who doesn't will quickly prove their lack of knowledge. There is no need to assume everyone but you doesn't have a clue how the game works.
I don't fly a Megathron for anything but solo lulz it's simply not as good as the Rokh with blasters the way I use it. I'm very much looking forward to the Torp changes, though I am worried that it will bring about the Age of the Raven and instead of tweaking the torps a little, as I believe they should, the nerfbat will be swung too hard and in the wrong place. I don't want my Raven to be uber short-term, I want it to be good long-term.
so how are you gonna achive 990 dps without rages? yeah you always have DREAD GURIASTA torps with you.. with cn torps you are down to 948 dps VS 949 dps from your mega w/void. and still you wont deliver those 948 dps to anythign with a sig radius <450...
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.24 11:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now.
i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50...
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.24 21:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dr Buffer
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now.
i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50...
Your SISI kd ratio? LOOK HOW STUPID YOU ARE.
Also with the extra high slots and the new heat mitigation system you can slap in 2 offlined heavy nos and overload to your heart's content.
at least i have first hand experience you have to believe everythign random noobcorp alts write on teh forums.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.24 21:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 24/11/2007 21:49:42 I played with a raven on Sisi in FFA and 1v1s. The raven is a better PVP ship now, and I could hold my own against Gal ships finnaly where as before it was a joke. But, I did not always win and I'm pretty much lvl 5 in everything related to flying a raven. So it's not some win button ship. Still has all the same weaknesses it had before, can just do more DPS now, brining it on par with other close range platfoms.
QFT
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.25 02:50:00 -
[19]
Edited by: d026 on 25/11/2007 02:52:27
Originally by: Brixer
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius!
No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial.
You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number.
The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948
Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted. you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega. sig radius matter so your 990 prossible rage torp dps are true ON A STATIONARY TARGET WITH >=530 sig radius which is bigger than a bs
How can you deliver full DPS to a cruiser with large guns ? Large guns have something called 'signature resolution', on Neutron IIs thats 400m. If target got less than 400m radius your DPS going down the drain. Drake got 285 m base radius. It's like the missiles explo radius. Raven got 460 base sig, so yes, Blasters will do full dmg on statinary Raven.. Unless it's @ 0 m, all guns miss forever if getting that close.
The stats to compare are:
Missile vs Gun explo radius vs signature resolution. explo speed vs tracking speed.
the tracking guide tells me that you will hit a stationary 140m sig radius cruiser with your 400 sig resolution large neutron blaster for 100% of your dps.
/edit i had 10m/s traversal added to the calc, corrected now.
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