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northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.11.27 19:18:00 - [181] Originally by: Orion Eridanus Just out of curiosity, how many of the people that have replied in this thread have served? I did. In the Royal Horse Artillery Free Corporation website? click here Trinity Corporate Services
Grez Minmatar e X i l e Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.27 19:25:00 - [182] Edited by: Grez on 27/11/2007 19:27:18 The S.A.S. Might as well consider them as a minature army. Originally by: benzss btw, the UK's navy is the 2nd biggest in the world. Yeah, it surprised me too. We still have the best navy (considering we just spent billions on the development of a new super destroyer that everyone wants). ---
George Norry	Posted - 2007.11.27 19:32:00 - [183] ARMY OF DARKNESS Linkage Ok you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick! The 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about $109.95. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right. Shop smart. Shop S-Mart. You got that? THIS IS THE SECOND MOST POWERFULL ARMY Linkage
das licht Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.27 21:30:00 - [184] Two words: Secret Weapons!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.27 22:05:00 - [185] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 27/11/2007 22:05:39 Originally by: Rialtor China would steam roll anyone 1v1, that includes the US. The country with the better economy, production, morale, and mindset will win. Wars are fought till a people are broken. I think Americans will be easier to break. Not true. If it were true why hasn't China taken Taiwan (which to this day they claim as theirs and regularly threaten Taiwan)? Simple answer is that they absolutely cannot. 1v1 I'll take any Western soldier over a Chinese conscript any day. All China has going for their army is numbers. That certainly counts especially with as many as they have but China cannot project power much beyond their immediate borders. Taiwan is all of 100 miles or so from China and the Chinese are quite incapable of moving crossing that in sufficient force to nail Taiwan. How do you suppose they'd make it across the entire Pacific to the US in the face of the world's premier blue water fleet? Oh, and if an enemy force actually invaded the US I think you'd see US resolve stiffen considerably and have all they backbone you want to kick them out. Not only that this is a nation of guns. Our citizens are rather well armed. An enemy force would not only fight against our military but every yahoo with an arsenal in their basement.
Arianhod	Posted - 2007.11.27 22:11:00 - [186] I see China is building up it's Navy. What happens if it DOES actualy land forces in Taiwan, do we get another Cyprus or does WW3 bread out due to UN protection?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.27 22:20:00 - [187] Originally by: Arianhod I see China is building up it's Navy. What happens if it DOES actualy land forces in Taiwan, do we get another Cyprus or does WW3 bread out due to UN protection? They'd probably never get forces to Taiwan. They'd need to own the air first and I seriously doubt they could do that. Especially with the likes of the F22 Raptor in service. There are not many of them but in war games so far they simply own the sky versus anything thrown at them. IF China got ownership of the air they'd then need to own the sea and again versus US attack subs and guided missile cruisers not very likely. IF China owned the sea and the air they'd need to suppress Taiwan coastal defenses. A soldier with an shoulder fired anti-tank weapon can screw-up most landing craft. In short it would be a massive effort. Just look at what the Allies threw at the D-Day invasion and that was before missiles and GPS targeted artillery and such. And yeah...good chance at starting WW3 if China tried.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.11.27 22:29:00 - [188] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Arianhod I see China is building up it's Navy. What happens if it DOES actualy land forces in Taiwan, do we get another Cyprus or does WW3 bread out due to UN protection? They'd probably never get forces to Taiwan. They'd need to own the air first and I seriously doubt they could do that. Especially with the likes of the F22 Raptor in service. There are not many of them but in war games so far they simply own the sky versus anything thrown at them. IF China got ownership of the air they'd then need to own the sea and again versus US attack subs and guided missile cruisers not very likely. IF China owned the sea and the air they'd need to suppress Taiwan coastal defenses. A soldier with an shoulder fired anti-tank weapon can screw-up most landing craft. In short it would be a massive effort. Just look at what the Allies threw at the D-Day invasion and that was before missiles and GPS targeted artillery and such. And yeah...good chance at starting WW3 if China tried. I believe someone has already pointed out that there are only 100 F22's in service. So, please, do tell how 51 fighter jets, that cost upwards of 140 million dollars per unit, not including training of the pilot, are going to take on an airforce consisting of forward mounted recoil-less cannon dogfighters? You Americans did this exact same thing in Vietnam with your Phantoms. "The days of dogfighting are over, with this new fire and forget system, the enemy will never get within range to return fire before being destroyed". Newsflash, you don't need no fancy radar to chase down another jet and empty some 30mm - 50mm rounds into his ass.
Battleclash	Posted - 2007.11.27 22:37:00 - [189] Edited by: Battleclash on 27/11/2007 22:37:30 China is already in the stages of an attack I tell you. But they wouldn't be dumb enough to send over a huge force at once. They've been infiltrating our ranks disguised as chinese tourists. That's right, those cute little lovable groups that roam around all bunched up and take pictures of everything in sight. Once they're on the mainland they pull out their soda machine disguises and take place at various strategic points. Beware the next machine you get your soda from! The signs are everywhere I tell you! I walked into a wal-mart the other day and took note of a little american flag that had a sticker saying 'made in China'. They already own us, we just don't realize it yet! Originally by: Vladimir Ilych Stupidity is universal.
Krows	Posted - 2007.11.27 22:39:00 - [190] Originally by: Derovius Vaden Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Arianhod You Americans did this exact same thing in Vietnam with your Phantoms. "The days of dogfighting are over, with this new fire and forget system, the enemy will never get within range to return fire before being destroyed". Newsflash, you don't need no fancy radar to chase down another jet and empty some 30mm - 50mm rounds into his ass. It's cute you think they could ACTUALLY fly well enough to get onto a F-22's tail like that. Let's think again here, the F-22 manages to out maneuver and out fly every other aircraft the U.S. throws at it in war games, aircraft that have the "fancy radar" still cannot compare to the sheer speed and maneuverability of the F-22. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it didn't simply dodge enough to the point that the "enemy" couldn't secure a kill, the F-22 looped back and secured a kill of its own. You're assumption that China still uses a technologically inferior air fleet is also childish and ill-informed. They are becoming quite a power in the world, not just with numbers but with technology. I still put forth the U.S. armed forces as superior, but that is only considering the myriad of support options we still support and uphold. What I say here... does not reflect on my corp or alliance.

Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.11.27 22:50:00 - [191] Edited by: Derovius Vaden on 27/11/2007 22:49:51 Originally by: Krows Originally by: Derovius Vaden Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Arianhod You Americans did this exact same thing in Vietnam with your Phantoms. "The days of dogfighting are over, with this new fire and forget system, the enemy will never get within range to return fire before being destroyed". Newsflash, you don't need no fancy radar to chase down another jet and empty some 30mm - 50mm rounds into his ass. It's cute you think they could ACTUALLY fly well enough to get onto a F-22's tail like that. Let's think again here, the F-22 manages to out maneuver and out fly every other aircraft the U.S. throws at it in war games, aircraft that have the "fancy radar" still cannot compare to the sheer speed and maneuverability of the F-22. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it didn't simply dodge enough to the point that the "enemy" couldn't secure a kill, the F-22 looped back and secured a kill of its own. You're assumption that China still uses a technologically inferior air fleet is also childish and ill-informed. They are becoming quite a power in the world, not just with numbers but with technology. I still put forth the U.S. armed forces as superior, but that is only considering the myriad of support options we still support and uphold. Learn 2 post, noob.
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers	Posted - 2007.11.27 23:13:00 - [192] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 27/11/2007 22:05:39 Originally by: Rialtor China would steam roll anyone 1v1, that includes the US. The country with the better economy, production, morale, and mindset will win. Wars are fought till a people are broken. I think Americans will be easier to break. Not true. If it were true why hasn't China taken Taiwan (which to this day they claim as theirs and regularly threaten Taiwan)? Simple answer is that they absolutely cannot. 1v1 I'll take any Western soldier over a Chinese conscript any day. All China has going for their army is numbers. That certainly counts especially with as many as they have but China cannot project power much beyond their immediate borders. Taiwan is all of 100 miles or so from China and the Chinese are quite incapable of moving crossing that in sufficient force to nail Taiwan. How do you suppose they'd make it across the entire Pacific to the US in the face of the world's premier blue water fleet? Oh, and if an enemy force actually invaded the US I think you'd see US resolve stiffen considerably and have all they backbone you want to kick them out. Not only that this is a nation of guns. Our citizens are rather well armed. An enemy force would not only fight against our military but every yahoo with an arsenal in their basement. As I said it's an extreme hypothetical and it cannot be due to world politics. No one nation can fight off the world. So yes they don't take back Taiwan because of the retribution that would be placed upon them if they tried it. Not really militarialy, I honestly think if they just took it, All you'd see is a cold war and severe sanctions which would really hurt China. But in the end they'd still have Taiwan. But it's not worth it. But my point still stands, no one nation on it's own can take China. Even the mighty US for all it's expenditure uses it very inefficiently. On top of it, the US is stretched far to thin to fight any sort of engagement with a Foe like China. China is an industrial giant now, their people would band together more quickly than this nation of immigrants currently. We beat China in technology, however China has advantages in other areas, their economy being one of them. The US is reduced to an import economy when once we were mighty exporters. Currently the US is a shell of it's former self, we just have a big Facade put up militarily. The US is a house of cards, a few years of Iraq and we're broke? Iraq is going to cost the US 2.7 trillion in a few years? ummm there's something seriously wrong there. The US Government is being propped up by China financially currently, any attempt to fight with China would result in a sudden standard of life drop in the States. The only way the US stands a chance is if the population can mobilize, personally I think we're far too decadent and we'd just get steam rolled and go post how we're losing on a blog. The US lost it's sense of nationalism some time ago. Also this war isn't going to end quickly, our technological gap will become smaller and smaller as the war goes on. China has more science and engineering studies and trained at a higher level than many of our graduates. I see that gap closing quickly in war time. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Captain Hudson Caldari Intergalactic Space Defense Force Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:15:00 - [193] Originally by: Krows Originally by: Derovius Vaden Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Arianhod You Americans did this exact same thing in Vietnam with your Phantoms. "The days of dogfighting are over, with this new fire and forget system, the enemy will never get within range to return fire before being destroyed". Newsflash, you don't need no fancy radar to chase down another jet and empty some 30mm - 50mm rounds into his ass. It's cute you think they could ACTUALLY fly well enough to get onto a F-22's tail like that. Let's think again here, the F-22 manages to out maneuver and out fly every other aircraft the U.S. throws at it in war games, aircraft that have the "fancy radar" still cannot compare to the sheer speed and maneuverability of the F-22. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it didn't simply dodge enough to the point that the "enemy" couldn't secure a kill, the F-22 looped back and secured a kill of its own. You're assumption that China still uses a technologically inferior air fleet is also childish and ill-informed. They are becoming quite a power in the world, not just with numbers but with technology. I still put forth the U.S. armed forces as superior, but that is only considering the myriad of support options we still support and uphold. Can a Eurofighter not catch it? The Real Eve FanFest
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.28 01:22:00 - [194] The Penguin Armies of DOOM are the most powerful Beware the 101st Black and White Airborne Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.28 01:31:00 - [195] My army of flying monkeys will conquer the world! Originally by: ISD Valorem The Devs have stated multiple times that they are looking at the Amarr issues. Weekly quote: "Villains always have antidotes... They're funny that way." ~The Tick
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.28 02:12:00 - [196] imagine if flying monkeys and penguins joined forces Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.28 02:37:00 - [197] woah! Originally by: ISD Valorem The Devs have stated multiple times that they are looking at the Amarr issues. Weekly quote: "Villains always have antidotes... They're funny that way." ~The Tick
Sister Impotentata Caldari Elite Angels Of Death	Posted - 2007.11.28 03:18:00 - [198] Look, I haven't read a damned thing in this thread. All I know is that I regularly had F-15s flying over my workspace. Then they broke the F-15s, and things have been quiet. I hated it. And then, today, I heard F-15s that weren't. Not the harmonic TIE-fighter drone of two engines working in symphony, but a single whoosh followed by a shape moving faster than it should be. Oh yeah, baby. F Freaking 16's. Falcons inna houes! Win! I'll take my -16s and raise you ANYTHING YOU WANT. PWN. ----- TANSTAAFL Originally by: Psycho John Petrucci If there's any point where you feel it's too difficult, then just stop. Because you just, you don't have it, you're just not good.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.28 04:02:00 - [199] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 28/11/2007 04:07:11 Originally by: Captain Hudson Can a Eurofighter not catch it? It's not a question of catching it (well it is partly). It is a question of being able to shoot it. Quote: To confront the F-22-led ôBlue Airö collection, the joint force mustered its best ôRed Airö threatùfront-line F-15s, F-16s, and Navy F/A-18 Super Hornets. The F-22Æs team blitzed the opposition with a favorable 241-to-two kill ratio. WhatÆs more, the two lost aircraft were F-15Cs, not F-22s. The Raptors came through the engagements untouched. In Red Flags, Bergeson said, ôyou have a great day if you lose only 10 percent of your forces.ö The massively lopsided victory for the stealthy F-22-led force was unprecedented. ôThey [the Red Air adversaries] couldnÆt see us,ö Tolliver said. This was true even when the opponents were assisted by AWACS. ôAnd thatÆs what makes the F-22 special,ö Tolliver went on. ôIÆm out there and I have weapons like an F-15C or an F-16, but ... IÆm basically invisible to the other guyÆs radar.ö The 241-to-two record was amassed over two weeks of air engagements. Tolliver noted that, in such battles, Red Air units were allowed to regenerate and return to the fight, but lost Blue forces could not. Even with such handicaps, in the largest single engagement, F-22-led forces claimed 83 enemies to one loss, after facing down an opposing force that had generated or regenerated 103 adversary fighters. SOURCE: http://www.afa.org/magazine/feb2007/0207raptor.asp Quote: OK, so it was a simulated war game. But F-22 fighters from Langley AFB's 27th Fighter Squadron, participating in Exercise Northern Edge, 2006, have tackled the simulated Sukhois thrown at them with record- breaking aplomb -- final result, 108 "Sukhois" killed. Zero Raptors. This included situations wherein the Raptors were outnumbered up to eight to one by the simulated Russian front-line Su-27 and Su-30 aircraft. In similar situations, F-15 and F-18E fighters also beat the Sukhois, statistically -- but by a 2:1 ratio. The score looks more like a pro soccer game than the Raptors' basketball score -- racked up between an NCAA powerhouse and a high school in pygmy country. At Oshkosh, the entire aeronautical community was poleaxed by the otherworldly maneuverability of the F-22s... we've never before seen a whole line of professional photographers too busy staring to shoot. SOURCE: http://integrator.hanscom.af.mil/2006/August/08102006/08102006-09.htm
Ademaro Imre Caldari Eye of God	Posted - 2007.11.28 04:10:00 - [200] Originally by: Derovius Vaden You Americans did this exact same thing in Vietnam with your Phantoms. "The days of dogfighting are over, with this new fire and forget system, the enemy will never get within range to return fire before being destroyed". Newsflash, you don't need no fancy radar to chase down another jet and empty some 30mm - 50mm rounds into his ass. Why do you keep making things up? Through the mid war Phantoms where were designed to be multi-role aircraft of of the first jets of its kind, still maintained a 3:1 kill ratio and that was when dogfighting skills were at their lowest, and rules of engagement still bad. The F-8 Crusader maintained a 6-1 kill ratio while the Crusaders were being taken out of service completely. A-4 Skyhawks increased their kill ratio to 15-1 by the war's end.

Don ZOLA Caldari Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.11.28 10:21:00 - [201] Russia >* be it in special forces, air force, nuclear power, expirience... and also the motivation :)
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.11.28 10:26:00 - [202] Originally by: northwesten Originally by: Orion Eridanus Just out of curiosity, how many of the people that have replied in this thread have served? I did. In the Royal Horse Artillery You bombarded people with horses?
Don ZOLA Caldari Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.11.28 10:42:00 - [203] Originally by: Wild Rho Originally by: northwesten Originally by: Orion Eridanus Just out of curiosity, how many of the people that have replied in this thread have served? I did. In the Royal Horse Artillery You bombarded people with horses? i loled :D
Valan The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.28 12:55:00 - [204] Originally by: Wild Rho Originally by: northwesten Originally by: Orion Eridanus Just out of curiosity, how many of the people that have replied in this thread have served? I did. In the Royal Horse Artillery You bombarded people with horses? Well the Airbourne Cavalry has flying horses doesn't it? /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.28 13:31:00 - [205] The stongest military is the one which can be best used. That isn't going to be a military open to public scrutiny, or pressured by world opinion. It will not be a military of a democracy, or anywhere where human rights or "freedom" can get in the way of getting the job done. North Korea, or China, places like that have the best military, simply because their forces would be allowed to get on with the job of war .. a job that "Joe Public" can not understand, and long term can not stomach. If China decided to take Taiwan tomorrow, it would be theirs by the end of the year. Sure the US would kill a lot of hostiles, but they would not be able to stop a determined force. The Western military creed is not one of defeating an enemy, but defeating their will and ability to fight. That is fine when it works, but you will not stop a giant by trimming his nails. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Arianhod	Posted - 2007.11.28 13:51:00 - [206] Edited by: Arianhod on 28/11/2007 13:52:41 If it comes to it my money is on western powers discarding the image of "we are civlised" and fighting as dirty as the enemy. Look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, look at Churchill planning out bombing raids to elminate German cities producing ammunition and equipment. After experiencing war our societies are not as enlightened as we make them out to be, it is our nature. After China invaded we would resist, and the Military would be granted more options in the name of ending the war decisivly, perhaps even nukes to remove gargantuan armies conventional arms cannot handel.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.28 14:07:00 - [207] Originally by: Arianhod Edited by: Arianhod on 28/11/2007 13:52:41 If it comes to it my money is on western powers discarding the image of "we are civlised" and fighting as dirty as the enemy. Look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, look at Churchill planning out bombing raids to elminate German cities producing ammunition and equipment. WWII was a war of attrition which gets ugly. Oddly, despite massive bombing, Germany increased production right to the end. And the bombing of cities was not only in Europe. The US did it too versus the Japanese. The firebombing of Tokyo actually killed more people than the atomic bombs did in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. And FWIW dropping the Atom bombs on Japan almost certainly saved lives overall. Perverse I know but true. Crazy as it sounds it is probably the best result the Japanese could have had at that point.
Arianhod	Posted - 2007.11.28 14:34:00 - [208] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h And FWIW dropping the Atom bombs on Japan almost certainly saved lives overall. Perverse I know but true. Crazy as it sounds it is probably the best result the Japanese could have had at that point. Oh I know and agree completly on this point, all I was saying that just because now during relative peacetime (ie Europe/North America is not under attack) we have spotless gloves on refusing to use nuke's, chemical weapons ect, but should we get into a war with China then those will go out the window. We may proclaim peace but we build and desighn the worlds weapons, we defend democracy but put up dictators. In the end when nudged we drop the fachede and fight as dirty as they come, wouldn't be surprised to see the Vigilant launching nukes at large concentrations of Chinese militia (like 1M+ troops) should it invade Taiwan for instance.
Krows	Posted - 2007.11.28 15:03:00 - [209] So, Derovius, are you going to actually challenge what I say or will you just use popular internet phrases in an attempt to make me look stupid? Sorry, I was in a rush but I felt what I had written would still merit some argument out of you. So I'll say it again, the F-22 is not only a stand-off engagement fighter, but an amazing dog fighter as well. Oh yeah, stop playing Command and Conquer Generals for an accurate representation of the Chinese military. Their air force is far more considerable than a mass of cold war era fighter planes (which again by the way would never catch an F-22). What I say here... does not reflect on my corp or alliance.
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.28 19:19:00 - [210] People people! Silence! I hate to point out some of the obvious notes you all missed but it seems you need it. The best military on paper is one thing. The best military in reality is another. Anyone can have an extremely good military. I point to some of the smaller EU nations which have great technology and training. But getting a military to a destination is a whole other topic. If you are the invader then you are at a disadvantage and need superior logistics and moving capabilities. This usually translates into a superior sized navy for intercontinental stuff. If you are the defender then you need land mobility and can easily incorporate civilian equipment unlike a navy. Deep sea harassment is all your navy needs to provide to attack someone's logistics (aircraft carrier groups need regular refueling/supplies). Defenders also have the ability to have hardened structures setup along strategic points forcing the enemy to either dash their heads on your walls or go around through predictable routes (where YOUR mobile army is waiting). So who would win between the US and China? China couldn't get anywhere near the US's shores without taking HUGE casualties as their Navy is barely a "blue water" navy. The US would be less detered but would still take casualties. I wouldn't want to be on either shore. It would make the Normandy landings look like a beach party. Land war in a huge place like Asia is nuts, likewise on the US. China doesn't have the armed population like the US but it gives civilians some training. Either nation would lose if they invaded unless they both had to invade a similar location from different sides (like Australia ). Invading from Cuba or Mexico would give the Chinese as easy way in. Invading from Siberia or some other area in Russia would give the US an easy way in. As you can see it would be a tough fight for either nation. So lets stick to who is better on paper for now. It will save everyone a few headaches. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes



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