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SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.27 15:20:00 -
[1]
Why not use scripts with ECM modules too? It makes perfect sense to have multi spec ecm only, and then use racial scripts to boost 1 racial sensor type.
ECM strengths would stay as they are atm. The only difference would be that a script changes the multispec ecm base strength up to the same strength as the racial ecm.
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Jarne
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2007.11.27 15:47:00 -
[2]
Yes it might make sense, but the consequences would (possibly) be a price drop of those modules to a fifth (not even considering the price differences between different kinds of modules). Also this is not completely the same as with sensor boosters or damps. These had only one module previously, and have with the changes, too.
Another probably more important thing to consider is the increased flexibility ECM ships would gain by those scripts. This flexibility would make them much more powerful. You wouldn't even need a script for "multispectrals" anymore, you would always change to the scripts best usable for the enemy ship types you're currently facing... - Success=Achievements/Expectations
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Maximillian Dragonard
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Posted - 2007.11.27 15:53:00 -
[3]
Honestly, that would make ecm boats massively op'd. If I could simply switch a script to the appropriate racial at any time..... well... we don't want that ____________________
EWAR... love it or hate it.... learn to deal with it! |
Derrys
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.11.27 17:25:00 -
[4]
I wonder if we won't see something like this sooner or later.
I could picture an ECM module that's like a weaker version of a multispec, but with racial scripts which will make it slightly more effective than a regular multispec against that race. Maybe add a drawback like tripled cap use or reduced range or something.
I wouldn't mind a script that toggled an ECM jammer between normal and "burst" functionality, provided the burst was actually useful.
The same principle could be applied to any other module with racial or damage type variants, which I guess would be mainly shield and armor hardeners. (Smartbombs?)
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Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.11.27 18:23:00 -
[5]
ECM already have some effect like script. It's efficiency is dependent on which race it is against.
For anyone who only use multispec the racial different means little, but if you know what ship you are fighting up against and fits the correct module it will make a huge boost on your jamming strength.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Dark Star LTD Atrocitas
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Posted - 2007.11.27 18:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Eka Maladay ECM already have some effect like script. It's efficiency is dependent on which race it is against.
For anyone who only use multispec the racial different means little, but if you know what ship you are fighting up against and fits the correct module it will make a huge boost on your jamming strength.
You post to much in Game Development forum and not enough anywhere else! :D
Come back to DSLT pub :(
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SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Eka Maladay ECM already have some effect like script. It's efficiency is dependent on which race it is against.
For anyone who only use multispec the racial different means little, but if you know what ship you are fighting up against and fits the correct module it will make a huge boost on your jamming strength.
You are not getting the point.
If we look at current T2 modules, multispec has a base strength of 2.4 against all sensor types, while the racials have base of 3.6 against 1 sensor type each. To have higher chance of jamming a ship you need to dock or use other refitting methods and fit racial jammers.
With scripts the multispec ecm module would be the only one needed. Without scripts it would have 2.4 base against all types. With a racial script fitted it would have 3.6 base against that race and 0 agianst the others.
So no. ECM doesnt have an effect like the script. The idea with the script is FOCUSING on 1 function, which isnt the case when using multispecs.
Scripts were added to mid slot EW modules with more than 1 function to give the pilot a chance to focus the modules on 1 of the functions. So ECM should be using scripts too.
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IHaveTenFingers
Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:52:00 -
[8]
No. -TF
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Sirilonwe
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.27 20:07:00 -
[9]
To be honest, it would overpower ECM ships. They could adapt to any situation; imagine you got a rack of each racial and 2 multispecs. Now imagine you got only amarr ships against you. 3 racials are not usable (well, they could be a bit of any use, but...).
Now imagine full multispectrals: what? full amarr? Switch to amarr scripts! And now you have full effectiveness for all your modules. ____________________________________ A gift for pirates |
Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.11.27 20:51:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Eka Maladay on 27/11/2007 20:52:50
Originally by: SoldierOfJustice
You are not getting the point.
Actually I'm pointing out your lack of point.
Tracking distruptor does two thing: 1) making tracking on gun worst 2) making range on gun shorter
Senor booster does two thing 1) Increase range 2) increase resolution
Damp does two thing 1) decrease range 2) decrease resolution
Tracking computer... you get the point (hopefully)
Now, ECM does, what? One thing. Jamming the ship
How do you scripts that?
Now, what you are suggesting, does not goes in line with what the other scripted modules does. So, in reality, no, it makes no sense, in fact, pretty much obsolete all racial ecm and make mulit-spec the sole module any ECM ship ever needed, and is exactly -opposite- to why script are introduced: to eliminates 'standard' module that every ship will fits.
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow You post to much in Game Development forum and not enough anywhere else! :D
Come back to DSLT pub :(
Sorry there's only so much of me to go around ^^; just kidding I will show up more, promise!
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Dark Star LTD Atrocitas
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Posted - 2007.11.27 21:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Eka Maladay Sorry there's only so much of me to go around ^^; just kidding I will show up more, promise!
I have tequila. For happy fun time, call 1-900-Thann. ;d
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Derrys
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Eka Maladay Now, ECM does, what? One thing. Jamming the ship
Technically, ECM modules do four things:
1) Gravimetric jamming 2) LADAR jamming 3) Magnetometric jamming 4) RADAR jamming
That may seem like splitting hairs, but it's really not. Within EVE's game engine, each of those four jamming types is the same type of attribute as the sensor dampener's range/resolution penalty. It should be trivially easy for scripts to modify each of those four attributes the same way they can modify the dampeners.
Whether it's a good idea to allow that is a separate question. It would have to be done in such a way that it's not just a OMGWTFPWN ECM module, but I think it could be done. Two ideas, like I mentioned before, are insanely high cap use and insanely short range. Another might be to allow ships to fit ECCM of a different sensor type than the ship's default.
You'd have to be careful, but it might be possible to make a configurable ECM module balanced.
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SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:03:00 -
[13]
Edited by: SoldierOfJustice on 27/11/2007 22:07:05
Originally by: Eka Maladay
Now, ECM does, what? One thing. Jamming the ship
How do you scripts that?
Now, what you are suggesting, does not goes in line with what the other scripted modules does. So, in reality, no, it makes no sense, in fact, pretty much obsolete all racial ecm and make mulit-spec the sole module any ECM ship ever needed, and is exactly -opposite- to why script are introduced: to eliminates 'standard' module that every ship will fits.
What I am suggesting puts ECM inline with the other EW modules.
Sensor dampener effiency is split between 2 attributes on the module itself. Once you fit a script in the dampener the module would be focused on doing 1 thing. Thats the point with the scripts.
In the same way, the multispec ECM module as standard sends out a signal that disrupts the 4 sensor types. Once you fit a racial script in it, it would send out a focused signal to disrupt 1 single sensor type. It makes perfect sense.
"Jamming the ship" doesnt describe what ECM does. It sends out a disruption signal, if the disruption signal is successfull the targetted ship would only be able to lock 0 targets. It IS the point that scripts would replace racial ECM modules. Why would you need them if ECM is put inline with other EW?
Dampening ships and tracking disrupting ships only need 1 type of modules. Why would it be different for the ecm ships?
And if you start talking about overpowered ECM ships then you should know that its CHANCE BASED. Which means you cant be sure you can jam all ships all the time. Some cycles will fail on ships out there.
And maybe, just maybe it would save a bit of the load on the server, especially in main hubs like Jita, if the racial ecm modules were removed. Thats 4x6 modules removed from market. If that is true and ECCM is changed same way, it would mean 4x9 more modules removed. And if backup arrays changed to be inline with the rest it would mean 4x11 more modules.
Edit:
Originally by: Derrys
Whether it's a good idea to allow that is a separate question. It would have to be done in such a way that it's not just a OMGWTFPWN ECM module, but I think it could be done. Two ideas, like I mentioned before, are insanely high cap use and insanely short range. Another might be to allow ships to fit ECCM of a different sensor type than the ship's default.
You'd have to be careful, but it might be possible to make a configurable ECM module balanced.
True that we dont want ECM to be OMGWTFPWN. But this change if done correctly and the balance kept the ECM ships could actully be used more than atm, which I believe is the problem that CCP is trying to solve with their ECM ship buff.
Balance should be maintained at all times.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:09:00 -
[14]
Quote: Why not use scripts with ECM modules too?
ECM modules come pre-scripted. There is the multi spec version, and then the racial versions, which boost the one sensor type at the expense of the other 3.
There's nothing left to script.
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Sunabi
Caldari Defiance Corp Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:18:00 -
[15]
How about doing this then knocking a few midslots off ECM boats? Aren't all the different flavours of ECM currently the reason why they have so many?
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Maximillian Dragonard
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Posted - 2007.11.27 22:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sunabi How about doing this then knocking a few midslots off ECM boats? Aren't all the different flavours of ECM currently the reason why they have so many?
How about.. if this is done, leave the slots alone so EW boats can actually have a TANK. ____________________
EWAR... love it or hate it.... learn to deal with it! |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2007.11.27 23:16:00 -
[17]
If there were a generic ECM, which did racials and multispecs via scripts, then ... well, that would be awesome.
Too awesome. I mean, it'd be really horrific to be able to pick and choose your racial jamming in space. Why not just upgrade every ECM to be the same power as the racials, because that's pretty much the effect it would have.
It's a nice idea, but ... I don't think it would be wise with the way ECMs are at present. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP |
SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.28 17:56:00 -
[18]
Edited by: SoldierOfJustice on 28/11/2007 18:03:35
Originally by: James Lyrus If there were a generic ECM, which did racials and multispecs via scripts, then ... well, that would be awesome.
Too awesome. I mean, it'd be really horrific to be able to pick and choose your racial jamming in space. Why not just upgrade every ECM to be the same power as the racials, because that's pretty much the effect it would have.
It's a nice idea, but ... I don't think it would be wise with the way ECMs are at present.
Awesome or horrific, m8? you gotta choose one of the 2.
It wouldnt be the same as upgrading all ECMs to be same power as racials, since there will be the script reloading time factor. I am not sure exactly how many seconds it takes to unload a script and load another one, but I am sure it is longer than just deactivating ECM and activating it on a second target. This would be another factor that would take a role in balancing ECM with scripts.
Edit:
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote: Why not use scripts with ECM modules too?
ECM modules come pre-scripted. There is the multi spec version, and then the racial versions, which boost the one sensor type at the expense of the other 3.
There's nothing left to script.
Sorry, but what you said is wrong. Scripts give the chance to change the effect of your modules on the fly. The "pre-scripted" modules you are refering to are not changed on the fly.
And the racial modules atm are not the same as a focused multispec. There is the range, cap usage, and fitting cost. Since those attributes arent the same then the modules are completely different modules. At the very least the fitting cost would be the same for all ecm modules if the scripts were added to those.
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NeoTheo
Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.28 18:18:00 -
[19]
maybe scripts of cap usage or something , however not for sensor type.
/Theo
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Eve University
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Posted - 2007.11.28 19:39:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 28/11/2007 19:40:36 Thing is, scripts were implemented to NERF the scripted modules. A mod that used to do multiple things at once now does one thing. And as noted earlier, the current combination of implementation and bonuses significantly nerf the mods and their specialized ships.
Scripts as you propose for ECM would be a huge BOOST. You're already getting a bonus increase with your specialized ships, allowing for increased use of Multispectrals if you so choose. Implementing racial scripts in any form, due to the need to be stronger than multispectrals, would be going too far in boosting ECM, even if still less strong than current racial ECM. Multispecs would be completely depricated and racials themselves would be fit less as the ECM pilot just switched scripts.
ECM will be quite powerful as it is; revel in it and plan accordingly.
(And ECM does a single effect - jamming the target. It just does different damage types, like ammo has two or three types of damage of varying effectiveness.)
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Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.11.28 22:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 28/11/2007 19:40:36 Thing is, scripts were implemented to NERF the scripted modules. A mod that used to do multiple things at once now does one thing. And as noted earlier, the current combination of implementation and bonuses significantly nerf the mods and their specialized ships.
Scripts as you propose for ECM would be a huge BOOST. You're already getting a bonus increase with your specialized ships, allowing for increased use of Multispectrals if you so choose. Implementing racial scripts in any form, due to the need to be stronger than multispectrals, would be going too far in boosting ECM, even if still less strong than current racial ECM. Multispecs would be completely depricated and racials themselves would be fit less as the ECM pilot just switched scripts.
ECM will be quite powerful as it is; revel in it and plan accordingly.
(And ECM does a single effect - jamming the target. It just does different damage types, like ammo has two or three types of damage of varying effectiveness.)
Exactly. The intention of script is to stop modules from give two effects at the same time. ECM does not do two effect at the same time. It just effect some ship better and some ship worst depends on the module you used. Kinda like damage type as Ezekiel said.
To apply the idea would be against the reason why script are made. Make no sense.
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Oam Mkoll
Caldari HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.28 22:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Maximillian Dragonard Honestly, that would make ecm boats massively op'd. If I could simply switch a script to the appropriate racial at any time..... well... we don't want that
Unfortunately true. Tempting to me as a Caldari EW pilot but definitely OP and would land ECM in the same uselessness as damps after a while. --- I am violence boat
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SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.29 04:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin
Thing is, scripts were implemented to NERF the scripted modules. A mod that used to do multiple things at once now does one thing. And as noted earlier, the current combination of implementation and bonuses significantly nerf the mods and their specialized ships.
Scripts as you propose for ECM would be a huge BOOST. You're already getting a bonus increase with your specialized ships, allowing for increased use of Multispectrals if you so choose. Implementing racial scripts in any form, due to the need to be stronger than multispectrals, would be going too far in boosting ECM, even if still less strong than current racial ECM. Multispecs would be completely depricated and racials themselves would be fit less as the ECM pilot just switched scripts.
ECM will be quite powerful as it is; revel in it and plan accordingly.
You call it nerf/boost, while others call it balancing. The fact is CCP knows something has to be done to make ECM ships used more, and that you cannot deny. Its prooved by the way CCP is testing the new changes to ECM ships.
Again, if scripts are used with ECM then there will be no need for RACIAL ECM to exist at all. So those modules should and would be removed. I am sure I mentioned this earlier. So no ECM modules will be useless in that situation.
Define "huge BOOST". Lets loot at it in a realistic way. There are 4 possible outcomes with the current ideas:
1) ECM ships stay as they are. No changes. 2) ECM ships (at least the t1) keep their current bonuses but scripts would be used with ECM. 3) ECM ships get the buffs they have on sisi atm. 4) Both (2) and (3).
Now lets start with a simple way of comparing the 4 cases. I'll assume we fit a scorpion (with total of 6 ecm fitted) and try to jam a ship with sensor strength of 20. In all cases I'll use t2 ecm modules and 3 t2 signal dispersion modules, and assume ECM related skills at lvl 5 (incl. ship skills). My formula to calculate the strength of ECM does not take rigs in concideration, but gives a very close value to the one in EVE. If you have a better formula pls share it.
1st case: Multispec base: 2.4 Multispec with bonus: 2.4(1+0.05*5)(1+0.1*5)(1+0.2*3) = 7.2 Chance to jam target with 1 module: 36% Chance to jam target with 2 modules: 59.04% Chance to jam target with 3 modules: 73.79%
Racial base: 3.6 Racial with bonus: 3.6(1+0.05*5)(1+0.1*5)(1+0.2*3) = 10.8 Chance to jam target with 1 module: 54% Chance to jam target with 2 modules: 78.84% Chance to jam target with 3 modules: 90.266%
2nd case: ECM (no script) base: 2.4 ECM (no script) with bonus: 2.4(1+0.05*5)(1+0.1*5)(1+0.2*3) = 7.2 Chance to jam target with 1 module: 36% Chance to jam target with 2 modules: 59.04% Chance to jam target with 3 modules: 73.79%
ECM (with script) base: 3.6 ECM (with script) with bonus: 3.6(1+0.05*5)(1+0.1*5)(1+0.2*3) = 10.8 Chance to jam target with 1 module: 54% Chance to jam target with 2 modules: 78.84% Chance to jam target with 3 modules: 90.266%
3rd case: Multispec base: 2.4 Multispec with bonus: 2.4(1+0.05*5)(1+0.15*5)(1+0.2*3) = 8.4 Chance to jam target with 1 module: 42% Chance to jam target with 2 modules: 66.36% Chance to jam target with 3 modules: 80.49%
Racial base: 3.6 Racial with bonus: 3.6(1+0.05*5)(1+0.15*5)(1+0.2*3) = 12.6 Chance to jam target with 1 module: 63% Chance to jam target with 2 modules: 86.31% Chance to jam target with 3 modules: 94.94%
4th case: ECM (no script) 2.4 ECM (no script) with bonus: 2.4(1+0.05*5)(1+0.15*5)(1+0.2*3) = 8.4 Chance to jam target with 1 module: 42% Chance to jam target with 2 modules: 66.36% Chance to jam target with 3 modules: 80.49%
ECM (with script) base: 3.6 ECM (with script) with bonus: 3.6(1+0.05*5)(1+0.15*5)(1+0.2*3) = 12.6 Chance to jam target with 1 module: 63% Chance to jam target with 2 modules: 86.31% Chance to jam target with 3 modules: 94.94%
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SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.29 04:12:00 -
[24]
First case is what CCP is trying to change, they want to improve ECM and chose to test 3rd case. As you can see if the 3rd case is applied no ECM pilot would ever need to activate more than 2 modules to jam an average target, and this is using a t1 ECM ship. 4th case is out of question, its simply too overpowered and I admit that. Too high ECM strength and too much flexibility.
The second case is a middle solution between the current ECM state and the one tested on sisi. It does provide more flexibility which I believe will make ppl fly ECM ships more, which is what I think CCP wants. And at the same time the target still has a chance. If 3 ECM are activated on the target it means the ECM ship can only jam 2 targets at the same time, while with CCP's buffs the ECM ship can jam 3 targets efficiently at same time.
I personally can accept the new buffs, especially since I can fly ECM ships. But for the sake of balance we should discuss it and look at alternative methods of making ppl use ECM ships. To me it looks like the changes CCP made are more of a "huge BOOST" than the ones I am suggesting.
If the targetted ship is using Racial/focused ECCM (which provides 96% boost to sensor strength), then chance of jamming the ship using 3 racial ECM with the buffs in effect is 69%, while with the 2nd case it would be 62.2% only.
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin (And ECM does a single effect - jamming the target. It just does different damage types, like ammo has two or three types of damage of varying effectiveness.)
If you compare it to ammo, tell me what you normally do when you meet a passively tanked drake for example. Wouldnt you change your ammo to a type that does as much EM as possible?
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.11.29 06:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: SoldierOfJustice Why not use scripts with ECM modules too? It makes perfect sense to have multi spec ecm only, and then use racial scripts to boost 1 racial sensor type.
ECM strengths would stay as they are atm. The only difference would be that a script changes the multispec ecm base strength up to the same strength as the racial ecm.
LOL. No way in hell.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:10:00 -
[26]
Hmm, first the other ewar types get nerfed massively, then some ecm ships get a boost and now you want another boost in form of scripts? seriously?
how about this then: half all ecm module strength and optimal range, now you can apply scripts to bring one of the fields back to what they were before, like it?
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Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:18:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Eka Maladay on 29/11/2007 07:23:41 Edited by: Eka Maladay on 29/11/2007 07:19:15
Originally by: Amy Wang Hmm, first the other ewar types get nerfed massively, then some ecm ships get a boost and now you want another boost in form of scripts? seriously?
how about this then: half all ecm module strength and optimal range, now you can apply scripts to bring one of the fields back to what they were before, like it?
As stupid as it sound, that is exactly what CCP did to the other EW. So that's the only thing that make sense so far in this whole thread.
If you want ECM to be 'scripted' this is how it should be done.
Originally by: SoldierOfJustice If you compare it to ammo, tell me what you normally do when you meet a passively tanked drake for example. Wouldnt you change your ammo to a type that does as much EM as possible?
OMG I almost missed this. You say this like switching ammo is actually supposed to be an option for everyone:
Hybrid = No switching ammo to change damage type Laser = No switching ammo to change damage type Drone = Sure, therotically it is possible, except your turret get killed, you need extra. You don't have room for even 2 damage type, let alone 4.
Large majority of people don't really get to switch damage type when they fight.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:24:00 -
[28]
tracking disruptors sure did need to be "balanced", lemme tell yea.
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SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Eka Maladay
Originally by: Amy Wang Hmm, first the other ewar types get nerfed massively, then some ecm ships get a boost and now you want another boost in form of scripts? seriously?
how about this then: half all ecm module strength and optimal range, now you can apply scripts to bring one of the fields back to what they were before, like it?
As stupid as it sound, that is exactly what CCP did to the other EW. So that's the only thing that make sense so far in this whole thread.
If you want ECM to be 'scripted' this is how it should be done.
CCP didnt change the optimal range of other EW modules when they added scripts. Get your facts straight. The part about halfing the strength is a bad choice, since there is no point in fitting caldari racial script in a gallente racial ECM module, so with scripts racial ECM shouldnt exist. But it does make sense if applied on the multispecs like I explained. And no, I didnt say both the ship buff and the scripts should be applied at same time, in fact I wrote that it would be a bad thing. I suggest you read the whole thread before posting in it.
Originally by: Eka Maladay
Originally by: SoldierOfJustice If you compare it to ammo, tell me what you normally do when you meet a passively tanked drake for example. Wouldnt you change your ammo to a type that does as much EM as possible?
OMG I almost missed this. You say this like switching ammo is actually supposed to be an option for everyone:
Hybrid = No switching ammo to change damage type Laser = No switching ammo to change damage type Drone = Sure, therotically it is possible, except your turret get killed, you need extra. You don't have room for even 2 damage type, let alone 4.
Large majority of people don't really get to switch damage type when they fight.
Aha, so what you are saying is that ECM isnt comparable to ammo and dmg types? 'Cause you can choose a module that does jam the target better than others, and its not always possible to choose the correct dmg type with ammo... Right.. Means Ezekiel Sulastin's statement comparing ECM with ammo was a very badly chosen example, the statement you just happen to support him in. Thank you for pointing out that your and Ezekiel Sulastin's statements about ECM and ammo/dmg types were badly chosen and dont fit when talking about ECM. Maybe you shouldnt have supported him in the first place.
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