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Heten Oviri	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:41:00 - [31] ah well that was short-lived, i was expecting a more gradual price decrease Golems down to 1.1 bil in Forge and all other marauders and black ops are selling at about 1.0-1.3 bil as well. Those are some very affordable prices already - makes me happy as a buyer :D
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.15 03:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Heten Oviri ah well that was short-lived, i was expecting a more gradual price decrease Golems down to 1.1 bil in Forge and all other marauders and black ops are selling at about 1.0-1.3 bil as well. Those are some very affordable prices already - makes me happy as a buyer :D Prices are dropping quickly??? Who could have predicted that? Oh wait... Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Mai Mailynn	Posted - 2007.12.15 10:34:00 - [33] So many people here using different standards for their idea of prices. :P Some people quote prices of average build cost, some are quoting prices of average invention + build cost, and their arguing as though these were the same thing. :P - Unless all of a sudden the EVE universe starts producing vastly more moon minerals than it did a month ago, regardless of any current inflation, t2 component prices aren't likely to go below what they were before marauders. :P - Average invention + build cost (including the t1 variant) of a maruader, at old uninflated t2 component prices, was around 650mil, with a good decrypter and a max run bpc. - Marauder prices will never drop below 650.1mil (.1 mil profit) unless there are major increases in some or all of: *T2 component supply (unlikely without a moon production ccp patch) Decryptors (unlikely due to them just being moved out of empire cosmos, but possible depending on how well that move worked) **Datacores (probably some here, though not a lot) - With jump freighters, other new T2 ships, and continued T2 BS production, it will take quite some time for the currently greatly inflated components to settle down to the prices they once were, if ever. Until then, it's unlikely marauders will break even at less than 750-850mil, and so at least 900mil prices are to be expected.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.12.16 01:10:00 - [34] Well, Golems sell as low as 775m in Jita now ... Guess i was only partially wrong - the only thing that matters is the demand, and for some reason, there is absolutely no demand in the market. Either everyone is waiting for "reasonable prices" and will be badly burned once they rebound to 1.2b+. Or i am missing something, and those BS are just plain useless.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.16 01:26:00 - [35] It seems people are building their Golems with stockpiled components from pre-trinity and using that purchase price to base their sale on. Really, at this point you can reprocess Golems and sell the components individually and profit. I wouldn't necessarily recomend that as comp prices are likely to come down shortly. Some others have suggested that people are reprocessing other T2 ships at low prices for their components so they can use them to build their marauders. I dunno but either way people are selling based on some other factor other than market cost. People will/would pay 1.2b for a Marauder. My bet is a lot of idiot inventors have jumped in and have no idea how to calculate build costs etc properly. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=500043 Largest Empire Research Alliance in EVE!
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.16 01:26:00 - [36] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 16/12/2007 01:33:47 Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Or i am missing something, and those BS are just plain useless. The primary market the Golem should appeal to would be mission runners. Sadly once you have an adequate tank all that matters is the speed with which you can complete missions. Although I haven't tested it personally, I can't see the painter bonus making up for such a large drop in DPS compared to the CNR especially when dealing with cruise missiles. There is an increase in volley damage, but again I don't think that measures up given that the vast majority of HP in lvl 4's since "need for speed" alterations are in the battleships. So the ship class is basically a novelty item with the exception of people who cannot or refuse to use a CNR. Though I hope I'm missing something and will probably try one out myself at some point.
Mai Mailynn	Posted - 2007.12.16 01:53:00 - [37] My guess is the idiot inventor theory, that there's too many people that simply don't know how to calculate their costs. That's fine, they'll go broke and out of business eventually, and marauder prices will go to where they should be. I for one have no intention of lower my Vargurs under a billion any time soon. I'm in no rush. As for effectiveness - Vargur is so vastly superior to any minmatar ship for pve, it's silly. You can effectively PvE with ACs because of the falloff bonus. You can easily get a 750 dps perma sustained tank, while still using multiple gyros and a full rack of ACs, with plenty of falloff for npcs, and even slap some tractor beams and a smart bomb on.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.16 03:18:00 - [38] This is a perfect example of a whole lot of people thinking like traders and not looking at things practically. The skills are astronomical for most people. I have been working on ship skills for almost my entire time in game and was still 10 days away from being able to fly them. The people that actually have the skills for them already have command ships which tank as well as marauders do. They also have faction ships which do more damage. The people who'd like marauders are not people who have the skills to use them generally or the money. I found it extremely comical that so many people thought they were going to make a killing on inventing and building these things. Nothing that is done by so many people will be profitable... add in that these ships were not all that amazing and you have a massive over-supply for the low level of demand. People ALWAYS over-predict prices of new items. They all think they will be worth sooooo much money. It never happens. Prices drop like lead balloons. It happens every time. They never account for the "I did the work for this so it was free" crowd. But the main reasons prices are dropping is incredibly low demand. People are panicking because all those Golems they built are not going to be purchased at break even prices. So they are trying to unload them while they can. Unfortunately the demand still seems to not be there... so prices are crashing even more. Perhaps they won't reach the price I predicted, but then again, maybe they will. It just may take a bit longer then I expected. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Nastasia	Posted - 2007.12.16 09:35:00 - [39] It's not only the skills that these ships demand. Anyone who could fly a cap ship, and there were many people who trained for them before the cap nerf, was just about 20-25 days away in training for marauders. Part of the reason is that people have also been playing EVE less actively lately. Some have exams, some are traveling for the holidays taking a vacation, then there are all these Trinity bugs interfering with normal game play. There's just sort of less pvp going on, i see a lot of people logging in just to change skills, and hence less demand for ships and mods (many faction mods dropped in prices too). In my case the mac client has become much worse post-patch that I'm not even going to think about engaging in any PVP/PVE or buying a new ship, because as much as I'd want to I can't play with it until they resolve all the bugs.
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.16 10:13:00 - [40] Originally by: Shadarle The people that actually have the skills for them already have command ships which tank as well as marauders do. They also have faction ships which do more damage. Did you even BOTHER reading the i made? Either you didnt, or you dont know what mission runners want. This signature is brought to you by EBankÖ, free space for moderators to brag.
Mai Mailynn	Posted - 2007.12.16 11:44:00 - [41] Some of the marauders aren't that impressive. The arguments for why a CNR is just as good / better than a golem are perfectly valid to an extent. Some of them are. Especially for the die hard minmatar. For a bit of EFT warrioring you can get a Vargur that can - Perma-AFK tank at around 1200 dps Do about 750 dps including drones Shoot with 33km falloff that comes with a tracking bonus Switch to 50km falloff with barrage if for some reason you need it Change ammo types to suit mission Still fit a large smartbomb for frigates 2 tractor beams with range and speed bonuses, and a cargohold that can actually carry the loot. That all fits, it's what I have on mine, and I'm using it for 0.0 exploration sites. So huge tank, enough range, high dps, damage type selection, frigate elimination, and ease of looting. No other minmatar ship can do that, and it's comparable to (and imo better than) a CNR. Most importantly, it's not caldari. :P So yeah, I think the Vargur is worth every penny, and have no intention of selling them for under a bil no matter how long it takes. :P Not worth the hassle of buildin um for less. If the 2 extra I have left (already sold one at 1.2) don't sell, I'll eventually give them to corp mates.
Soren PAK	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:08:00 - [42] Originally by: Mai Mailynn So yeah, I think the Vargur is worth every penny, and have no intention of selling them for under a bil no matter how long it takes. :P Not worth the hassle of buildin um for less. If the 2 extra I have left (already sold one at 1.2) don't sell, I'll eventually give them to corp mates. what's your corp? ☠-->-->--
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:41:00 - [43] Edited by: Shadarle on 16/12/2007 15:41:57 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Shadarle The people that actually have the skills for them already have command ships which tank as well as marauders do. They also have faction ships which do more damage. Did you even BOTHER reading the i made? Either you didnt, or you dont know what mission runners want. I read your post. I disagreed with it completely. You use a CNR for increased damage (which means you can run missions faster). You use a Nighthawk for increased tank (which means you can run missions safer/more afk). The Golem is middle ground between the two and requires more skills than either by a fair bit. If you were a nighthawk pilot you'll have to get bs5 + cruise missile 5 + spec 4/5 + at least one other level 5 skill. If you were a CNR pilot you'll have to get all sorts of skills you don't have. There is very little benefit for all that skill training, thus people are not bothering by and large. If Golems had the same skill reqs as CNR's you'd see much higher demand. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
The Internets	Posted - 2007.12.16 20:19:00 - [44] Originally by: Mai Mailynn So yeah, I think the Vargur is worth every penny, and have no intention of selling them for under a bil no matter how long it takes. :P Not worth the hassle of buildin um for less. If the 2 extra I have left (already sold one at 1.2) don't sell, I'll eventually give them to corp mates. Does look like a nice ship; but market wise... Sold in Jita (@ time of this post) Paladin - 9 Golem - 52 Kronos - 11 Vargur - 0
Mai Mailynn	Posted - 2007.12.16 21:57:00 - [45] That's why I sell in Heimatar. :P
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:38:00 - [46] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Or i am missing something, and those BS are just plain useless. Only thing you're missing on the reason is that the main "target market group" didn't have most of the skills ready to use them and are still not convinced that a Golem will outperform their precious CNR. Hell, we still see "zomg 4launchers what about defenders" threads every day. As a sidenote officer multispecs have so raised in price... damn you for overbidding me on that estamel's a month ago! /shakes fist
Kira's Shadow	Posted - 2007.12.17 14:27:00 - [47] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Shadarle The people that actually have the skills for them already have command ships which tank as well as marauders do. They also have faction ships which do more damage. Did you even BOTHER reading the i made? Either you didnt, or you dont know what mission runners want. As a command ship user, and someone who use them a lot in missions, I can't wait getting my butt inside a Marauder. As an exempple, for fighting blood raiders/snachas I used to hop in my Absolution, until I found out that an Armageddon was still doing the job faster (at least on BS-heavy missions). A Paladin will make missions so much faster, because of beams... Beams are less vulnerables to tracking disruption (which you find often in missions). A Beam Paladin do about the same dps than a Pulse Armageddon, due to less cap use freeing slots for damage mods, and "8" guns with ship bonus), and the doubled range is just THAT good. web bonus, cargo space and on-board tractor/salvaging are sugar on top. Same with the Kronos. With a rail astarte I fire only about 60-70% of my time, because I have to ab in reasonnable range not to waste AM rounds. I could use thorium or equivalent, but then you spend a lot of time switching ammos or not doing your max dps. The Kronos with twice the optimal will not only do substancially more dps (for less ammo cost, an average 2 medium CN AM rounds/second isn't insignifiant), but also fire with it about 100% of the time.
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2007.12.17 14:43:00 - [48] As Kira pointed out, I think the Marauders will prove popular L4 ships because of the large weapons. My Absolution does tank very well but the Paladin should speed things up considerably. I just wont buy one until the prices have stabilised and come right down though. Hopefully. CEO Aperture Science Industries Eve Corp Web design, development and hosting services for ISK - contact me in game
Raaki The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.17 16:44:00 - [49] I did notice thou that all these mauraders have more cap that recharges quite a bit faster then a T1 BS. Dunno how big a difference that makes.
Artmedis Valben Gallente Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:26:00 - [50] Edited by: Artmedis Valben on 17/12/2007 17:28:13 If you do cost analysis of the materials/components etc used to build Marauders, even if you build all your components yourself (and dont charge anything for them), current cost is around 700mil. If you are buying built components from the market you can safely add at least 100mil to the cost. Given all the work involved, a fair price is roughly 1 bil. I only know 1 person that can fly a Marauder, and most of those excited about flying them are still around 1 month of training away. The skill tree for making them is very simple in comparision. So there are two reasons prices are dropping fast: 1) there is still very little demand 2) inventors that spent every dime they had on building a few of these behemoths need the cash badly, and many of them stocked up before the price increases on the T2 market so they believe they will still make money selling them at old price cost+100mil. These people will not invent or build more Marauders. If demand picks up, prices will eventually stabilize at 900-1100mil and T2 comp prices will remain high. If demand doesn't pick up, production will stop, T2 comp prices will fall, and people will recalculate the costs as being 500mil and sell for 6-700mil or something like that. Selling: PERFECT PRINTS T2 SHIPS
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:01:00 - [51] In a month or two the profit margin on a Marauder will not be a flat 150-200 mill. It will be 10-20%. Probably closer to the 10% side. If margins are higher more people will do it and it will drive margins lower. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.23 20:53:00 - [52] Originally by: Shadarle In a month or two the profit margin on a Marauder will not be a flat 150-200 mill. It will be 10-20%. Probably closer to the 10% side. If margins are higher more people will do it and it will drive margins lower. shadarle giving good market advice? nah its just common sense Trashed sig, Shark was here
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:36:00 - [53] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Shadarle In a month or two the profit margin on a Marauder will not be a flat 150-200 mill. It will be 10-20%. Probably closer to the 10% side. If margins are higher more people will do it and it will drive margins lower. shadarle giving good market advice? nah its just common sense Common sense becomes much less common when no one seems to have it. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:51:00 - [54] Down come those Golem prices! They rebounded for a few days a week back... which got people to start building more of em... and now the price is falling like a load of bricks again. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.31 20:10:00 - [55] Originally by: Shadarle Down come those Golem prices! They rebounded for a few days a week back... which got people to start building more of em... and now the price is falling like a load of bricks again. what can you tell us about t2 material and component prices? Trashed sig, Shark was here
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.31 20:37:00 - [56] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Shadarle Down come those Golem prices! They rebounded for a few days a week back... which got people to start building more of em... and now the price is falling like a load of bricks again. what can you tell us about t2 material and component prices? More than I will? Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.02 21:20:00 - [57] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Shadarle Down come those Golem prices! They rebounded for a few days a week back... which got people to start building more of em... and now the price is falling like a load of bricks again. what can you tell us about t2 material and component prices? More than I will? tell us anything you will Trashed sig, Shark was here
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.03 00:34:00 - [58] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Shadarle Down come those Golem prices! They rebounded for a few days a week back... which got people to start building more of em... and now the price is falling like a load of bricks again. what can you tell us about t2 material and component prices? More than I will? tell us anything you will I have. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

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