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Maximus Maridius
Gallente Navy Special Forces
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:47:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Maximus Maridius on 10/12/2007 01:05:21 Edited by: Maximus Maridius on 10/12/2007 00:47:36 As many of you are aware, Trinity brought forth the death of many Gallente pilots throughout the EVE universe with its various nerfs to Drones, damps, drone ships, etc. Even before Trinity, one of the worst Gallente nerfs (nos) destroyed some awesome ship setups. Bottom line: Trinity broke the Gallente Recon
Seriously, as it stands, the Arazu and Lachesis are almost completely useless. CCP effectively destroyed the two of the only ships in the game that were "Dedicated" damp ships. Now, how can these be fixed? I'm sure many of you have possibly thought of this fix. Why not give the Arazu/Lachesis a 20% bonus to damp effectiveness per Recon level? Just like the Rook and its counterpart the Falcon (two dedicated ECM boats, just like the Arazu and Lachesis; two dedicated damp boats) give the following bonus:
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
CCP should seriously look into this, and fix this awesome ship class( I know they wont, but oh well)
(Please, no trolls, only intelligent thoughts)
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Arana Tellen
Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.10 01:01:00 -
[2]
Lol 20% is too much but 7.5% or 10% is reasonable. ---------------------------------
Oh noes! |
Maximus Maridius
Gallente Navy Special Forces
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Posted - 2007.12.10 01:06:00 -
[3]
Caldari recon get 20% to ECM effectiveness and uber jam everything...
Any bonus will work
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Arana Tellen
Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.10 01:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Maximus Maridius Caldari recon get 20% to ECM effectiveness and uber jam everything...
Any bonus will work
No. Dampners hit everyone, they are not supposed to be AS lockdown as ECM, however they lack bite on gallente recons and 7.5% - 10% bonus would get them up to near (7.5%) and at (10%) old levels. ---------------------------------
Oh noes! |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.10 01:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Arana Tellen
Originally by: Maximus Maridius Caldari recon get 20% to ECM effectiveness and uber jam everything...
Any bonus will work
No. Dampners hit everyone, they are not supposed to be AS lockdown as ECM, however they lack bite on gallente recons and 7.5% - 10% bonus would get them up to near (7.5%) and at (10%) old levels.
Someone did the math not so long ago and came up with 12.5% to be really close (yet still below) old performance levels.
Liang
-- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Hannobaal
Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.10 06:04:00 -
[6]
I'd rather they give them a range and/or falloff bonus so they can be used to shut down snipers in fleets.
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.10 06:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hannobaal I'd rather they give them a range and/or falloff bonus so they can be used to shut down snipers in fleets.
Increasing the range bonus on tracking disruptors would help alot.
Liang
-- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.10 07:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Arana Tellen
Originally by: Maximus Maridius Caldari recon get 20% to ECM effectiveness and uber jam everything...
Any bonus will work
No. Dampners hit everyone, they are not supposed to be AS lockdown as ECM, however they lack bite on gallente recons and 7.5% - 10% bonus would get them up to near (7.5%) and at (10%) old levels.
Someone did the math not so long ago and came up with 12.5% to be really close (yet still below) old performance levels.
Liang
This is likely wrong, increases are now flat multiplication and not reductions based on final strength. A huge bonus would just make you damp even stronger.
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.12.10 07:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Liang Nuren Someone did the math not so long ago and came up with 12.5% to be really close (yet still below) old performance levels.
This is likely wrong, increases are now flat multiplication and not reductions based on final strength. A huge bonus would just make you damp even stronger.
No, Liang is right. To get the same effect (on one attribute) on the new damps, the specialist ship bonus would need to be at 13.3%/level (maxed skills, no rigs). -- Gradient forum |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.10 07:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Liang Nuren Someone did the math not so long ago and came up with 12.5% to be really close (yet still below) old performance levels.
This is likely wrong, increases are now flat multiplication and not reductions based on final strength. A huge bonus would just make you damp even stronger.
No, Liang is right. To get the same effect (on one attribute) on the new damps, the specialist ship bonus would need to be at 13.3%/level (maxed skills, no rigs).
Sounds great. Make it 15% and we're all set.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
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The ArchWarder
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.10 07:36:00 -
[11]
Beautiful.
Buff que is that way --> Just stand behind the caldari who are standing behind the amarr and im sure CCP will buff your race ASAP.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Arthegon
Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.10 12:00:00 -
[12]
Damp nerf as in regard to gallente recons has IMHO been overdone. You now have to dedicate 4 t2 damps (range setting) on a cruiser-class (50km basic targetting range) ship to get him just under 10km, granted he doesnt use a sensor booster, if he does you are wasting your time and med slots.
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Kransthow
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.12.10 12:02:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kransthow on 10/12/2007 12:02:25 Don't forget the celestis
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Aakito
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Posted - 2007.12.10 13:35:00 -
[14]
Give it a few months before everyone whines about being perma jammed by all the caldari EWAR ships.
Maybe then other ewar will get a proper fix. |
Zian Liao
Gallente Gallente Forschung und Entwicklung
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Posted - 2007.12.10 15:34:00 -
[15]
plz nerf everyting ! so pvp is dying and eve becomes a pure economic game ^^
trading is pvp
/irony off
mfg
/me switch to amarr ^^
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SuNnY l3oNe
Veni Vidi Vici. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.15 11:35:00 -
[16]
Their should be a 20% per lvl increase for each of the 4 race's recons. I fly Gallente ships and used to love the Arazu. Now the Arazu/Lachesis is for sure worthless. Hopefully CCP will fix this horrendous mistake.
Do Not Complain if I pop you, that'll just make your humiliation worse! |
Pseudo Ucksth
Collegium Mechanicae
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Posted - 2007.12.15 12:41:00 -
[17]
I have been flying gallente recons as long as recons have been around. I supported the idea of damps being adjusted, but I can't find any redeeming qualities about my solorazu/fleetchesis anymore. I'm not against the nerfbat, but I can't help but feel that it got swung a couple % too hard.
I *do* like the ARM script limiting to range/res though. That was the right direction to take it.
______
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Laila Eldgorn
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Posted - 2007.12.15 13:07:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Laila Eldgorn on 15/12/2007 13:10:14 This whole idea fails at start. You ask no trolling, perhaps figure out how ecm works first. damps != ecm. Get your numbers straight. 20% is just laughable.
oh and tbh I think you're not supposed to damp anyone under 10km. Forget going to web range and you're fine, or get ecm support.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.15 15:19:00 -
[19]
Well t seems that people always forget that dampening people is only the secondary role of the gallente recons... Damps should never be as strong as ECM until caldari recons get a similar bonus like the range bonus to warp scrambling ranges.
Gallente was way out of balance before, now it is better.
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Drogher Forerunner
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Posted - 2007.12.15 16:37:00 -
[20]
The Gallente nurf just brings down into second place and not first place.
The Gallente recons are still as deadly, it just takes more skill.
The caldari just got boosted so much that people will be choosing ECCM rather than sensor bossters to throw in their ships.
The Amaar recons are still virtually usless
And the Minmatar are still the same.
As far as those complaining about Gallente, put them next to each other recon and then ask your self which one you would choose if you had max skills. The day you would choose every other ships before Gallente is probably the day you can start considering that the gallente recons have a problem to whine about.
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Vrenth
Gallente 23rd Armor Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.15 22:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Maximus Maridius Edited by: Maximus Maridius on 10/12/2007 01:05:21 Edited by: Maximus Maridius on 10/12/2007 00:47:36 As many of you are aware, Trinity brought forth the death of many Gallente pilots throughout the EVE universe with its various nerfs to Drones, damps, drone ships, etc. Even before Trinity, one of the worst Gallente nerfs (nos) destroyed some awesome ship setups. Bottom line: Trinity broke the Gallente Recon
Seriously, as it stands, the Arazu and Lachesis are almost completely useless. CCP effectively destroyed the two of the only ships in the game that were "Dedicated" damp ships. Now, how can these be fixed? I'm sure many of you have possibly thought of this fix. Why not give the Arazu/Lachesis a 20% bonus to damp effectiveness per Recon level? Just like the Rook and its counterpart the Falcon (two dedicated ECM boats, just like the Arazu and Lachesis; two dedicated damp boats) give the following bonus:
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
CCP should seriously look into this, and fix this awesome ship class( I know they wont, but oh well)
(Please, no trolls, only intelligent thoughts)
That is ineffective, not totally useless. Fix Amaar recons first. --------------------------------- Let's make CLONE VATS useful! |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2007.12.16 00:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Maximus Maridius Caldari recon get 20% to ECM effectiveness and uber jam everything...
Any bonus will work
Different ship, different role, different number of mods needed to be effective, and very different damage output. Comparisons here are fundamentally flawed for all manner of reasons.
Serious question though. What could an Arazu (or Lachesis) do before, that it now cannot, and why do you feel that that makes it an unfair nerf?
I mean, damps still reduce stuff's targeting range, or targeting speed. What does the change (being not doing both at once, and reducing the net amount) actually rule out as an option now? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP |
Davrin Fey'Alar
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Posted - 2007.12.16 01:11:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Davrin Fey''Alar on 16/12/2007 01:11:05
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Maximus Maridius Caldari recon get 20% to ECM effectiveness and uber jam everything...
Any bonus will work
Different ship, different role, different number of mods needed to be effective, and very different damage output. Comparisons here are fundamentally flawed for all manner of reasons.
Serious question though. What could an Arazu (or Lachesis) do before, that it now cannot, and why do you feel that that makes it an unfair nerf?
I mean, damps still reduce stuff's targeting range, or targeting speed. What does the change (being not doing both at once, and reducing the net amount) actually rule out as an option now?
The very obvious point here is that although they are different ships with different roles.. they are of the same general class, and should therefore have similar overall battlefield impact.
The Gallente recons (and Amarr recons) have been severely gimped. While Caldari recons can perma jam (and therefore render effectively useless) multiple battleships, Gallente recons have real problems with one.
Simply put, a Caldari recon is now worth several Gallente or Amarr recons.
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Maximillian Dragonard
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Posted - 2007.12.16 02:58:00 -
[24]
I'm still in the camp of doing the same thing to the other recons that was done to Caldari recons.. Give them EW strength mods that take up low slots. Caldari forfeit tank for EW, while everyone else has tank + ewar. This would alleviate the ewar strength deficiencies of the other recons without changing the ship bonuses. (and I fly both Caldari and Gallente recons)
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.12.16 07:24:00 -
[25]
when ECM has a range of 62km, and a falloff of 30km (anything below 30km, and you get 0% chance to jam, anything above 62km, 0% chance to jam), with max fighting range of 14km; then we can talk about other recons getting their tanks nerfed.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.16 09:16:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Feng Schui when ECM has a range of 62km, and a falloff of 30km (anything below 30km, and you get 0% chance to jam, anything above 62km, 0% chance to jam), with max fighting range of 14km; then we can talk about other recons getting their tanks nerfed.
Maybe you should get a clue how falloff works first...
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.12.16 10:58:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Feng Schui when ECM has a range of 62km, and a falloff of 30km (anything below 30km, and you get 0% chance to jam, anything above 62km, 0% chance to jam), with max fighting range of 14km; then we can talk about other recons getting their tanks nerfed.
Maybe you should get a clue how falloff works first...
Maybe you should get a clue how tracking disruptors work first... (in regards to how pilgrims fight).
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Kon sama
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Posted - 2007.12.16 12:15:00 -
[28]
its only fair if they boost this like next year
caldari recons had to wait a year whaha.
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Kon sama
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Posted - 2007.12.16 12:19:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Maximillian Dragonard I'm still in the camp of doing the same thing to the other recons that was done to Caldari recons.. Give them EW strength mods that take up low slots. Caldari forfeit tank for EW, while everyone else has tank + ewar. This would alleviate the ewar strength deficiencies of the other recons without changing the ship bonuses. (and I fly both Caldari and Gallente recons)
i agree. dont boost the ships or mods, just at a passive damp boost 1 where you have to use atleast 2-3 low slots for to boost up the damp strength like it was before trinity
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Azur Tzesaeia
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Posted - 2007.12.16 12:39:00 -
[30]
Ok I'm coming from the Testservers. I was testing a Celestis with 4 damps signal surpression lvl 4 cruiser lvl 5. So I got all the bonuses a Arazu or Lachesis can have. On trinity I can fly them already but the test server is a bit outdated. I missed 5 % from sig surpression lvl 5 well i'll never train it and i feel pitty for those who have trained it.
From lvl 4 to 5 it takes 21days. Besides you need electronics lvl5 a bunch of other ecm skills. All together about 35days with good attributes for electronics this means with bad attributes for gunnery. So i made up this whole char to be good in electronics even his attributes. To fly an Arazu well you need maxed out cap skills aswell and more specific for this ship you must have recon lvl4, signature analysis lvl 5, electronic upgrades lvl5 and covert ops lvl 4 if you want to use the cloak you should have cloaking lvl 4 and if you want to fit cyno gens cyno field theory lvl4 I think you need science befor you can train this. Long range jamming and frequency modulation are a good idea aswell.
So you need at least as much time to train for an Arazu as for any other T2 cruiser but the skills you train mostly won't be of any use for your progress to BS for example or to any other ship. Most of them are useless for other ships. If you train for a HAC you can use your skills to fit t2 guns on any ship small or medium sized and you have more than 60% of the skills required for a BS with t2 guns already.
I'm going to petiton about this. I want to give back my char and get another one trained for Hacs with the same skill points i'm going to have very nice t2 guns and a great hac with great cap skills and nice speed as well as decent t2 tank. I feel a bit betrayed since I was promised to get something for my real money investested. And now it is broken.
The Arazu and Lachesis can damp frigates with 4 damps to 7km cruisers to about 12km and battle ships to about 14km. 2 Damps will damp a frig to 12km what is a laugh for a frig since this is nice operation range. To anything bigger 2 damps are laughable what ship can't hit at 20km+? The Arazu nor the Lachesis have a tank and their dmg is worse than that of a AF besides you need all those extra skills and med guns t2. For a hac you need only med guns t2. You need maxed cap skills speed skills etc for both so that won't make any difference. The Celestis can damp better than the Arazu btw, since it can fit 3 elec superiority rigs. What is somewhat funny. The Drone Bay of the Arazu is laughable 40m¦ so you don't even get 5 med drones in it or haha funny replacement drones. ECM Jammers can jam over all ranges effectivly while a Arazu can only jam from long ranges. At least nerf ecm so it won't function over 20-30kms. Whatever you do I want a new char or my money back my Char is more useless than a t1 frigate pilot.
For sniping it has a cruical error btw. It is too slow it is slower than a nano bs even if the Arazu is fully nanoed. Besides it can't run the mwd consequently cause of cap issues and it would need to drop a sd for a cap injector it needs a warp jammer aswell to keep the far of enemy there if the enemy decides to run well you can't stop him he will be out to 60km in no time. What a laugh. So your wingman BS sniper wont be able to keep at range since the enemy is much quicker. The close range ship will come close pop the Arazu from 20km distance with one salvo and than pop the warp jammed Sniper. VERY NICE TACTIC. A sniper and a t1 frigate gang is 10times as dangerous for a close range bs than a Arazu with sniper bs or anything else. You can add another sniper and another frig and they'll be more effective than two snipers with two Arazu. An so on and so on. So even in a fleet a t2 frig is more useful than a Arazu.
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