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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.12.18 15:32:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Kuseka Adama
If the black ops don't sell its only because they don't trust them to be safely bought. The black ops are the scariest ships i have ever seen. The stealth bomber had a limited role. On the other hand you can quite literally turn the black ops into ANY kind of ship. Mission runner? Sure thing no problem. Gate camper? With ease. High speed strike force commander? Yep that too. Front line fighter? Ohhh hell yeah. This is a ship thats going to be produced as much as possible but probably sold on a very small scale. And i cant blame them when you look at what one of those things can do. Covert ops have gone to a whole new level because of this class. Do not be surprised if you only ever see one or two of these in high sec. The black ops is one hell of a zero sec ship and its gonna be used there. The versatility of this ship can not be overstated.
Shhhhh.....don't tell people these very valuble secrets if they haven't figured it out yet.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Drachma Golea
Caldari
Egnop
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Posted - 2007.12.18 15:36:00 -
[62]
Somehow the Kronos for example attracts my attention, doing level 4 missions with a tractor beam and 2 salvagers would be nicer than having to jump in and out for a hauler/salvager.
iirc atm the CNR is the way to do missions, and with a proper fit it'll be expensive too...
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F90OEX
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Posted - 2007.12.18 15:43:00 -
[63]
I'll stick to my CNR Sales ....  
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Aranbaal
Minmatar
Malevolent Intentions
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Posted - 2007.12.18 15:52:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Kuseka Adama
If the black ops don't sell its only because they don't trust them to be safely bought. The black ops are the scariest ships i have ever seen. The stealth bomber had a limited role. On the other hand you can quite literally turn the black ops into ANY kind of ship. Mission runner? Sure thing no problem. Gate camper? With ease. High speed strike force commander? Yep that too. Front line fighter? Ohhh hell yeah. This is a ship thats going to be produced as much as possible but probably sold on a very small scale. And i cant blame them when you look at what one of those things can do. Covert ops have gone to a whole new level because of this class. Do not be surprised if you only ever see one or two of these in high sec. The black ops is one hell of a zero sec ship and its gonna be used there. The versatility of this ship can not be overstated.
Some of the Black-ops are versatile some are nto due to there lack of dmg output. Thy are all excellent at what they are supposed to do but lack the tanks or dmg of a normal bs for other types of work, same with the marauders superb for mission runners to do ther high sec missions in. Not good for general pvp and too expensive to low sec mission run in asyou know full wellassoon as someone sees it in space they gona go all out to gank it.
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insulubria
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Posted - 2007.12.18 15:59:00 -
[65]
This golem is badarse!
Mara lvl 3 = 880ish shield boost from my MEDIUM shield booster
mara lvl 4 = 920 boost per 3second cycle
my lowest resistance is 80%kinetic highest 90%thermal
so 4xCN siege's 3xcn bcu's are doing wtf awsome.
The 40km tractorbeam range and 1250m3 cargobay is sweet.
with 2 beams on, i put a drone range link, so i can send drones 71km
chew down on npc's before they drive into my torpedo range.
usually i dont loot, but hey since i've got the room and the range for tractor beams..
I guess it makes up for the 16-25% drop in damage from the cnr..
someone calculated 16% drop.. but i dont think they realize..
CNR mission runners use FIVE navy BCU's most of the time.
The 3% on the last bcu is worth its slot when you've got a perma tank already.
However i've noticed a glitch.. my torp range is 40km the enemy is 30km and driving towards me.
I thought it was lag, at first but.. out of 20 torpedos 9 did no damage. they just fking missed..
Im sure if I make a thread about it, it'll be full of TORP RANGE NERF spam in 5seconds..
but I was well within range, the lifespan of the torpedo was not reached.
The torpedo was not chasing a frigate for 8 seconds, it was flying straight towards an oncoming battleship that was already in range.
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Aranbaal
Minmatar
Malevolent Intentions
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Posted - 2007.12.18 16:07:00 -
[66]
If your not target painting then ur torps will suck.
But yeah its a nice mission ship thats it .
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.18 17:17:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Newbie manufacturers/inventors are the problem. Pimp inventors/manufacturers know how to make isk outta this
So mr Pimp, since you're a pimp and all... with current component buy order prices, you actualy try and invent t2 BS's?
I assume you've got your own t2 component production line ofcourse... if not and you have a t2 component provider, you've got yourself a nice sucker  |
Westly Synpa
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.18 17:27:00 -
[68]
Originally by: insulubria
This golem is badarse!
Mara lvl 3 = 880ish shield boost from my MEDIUM shield booster
mara lvl 4 = 920 boost per 3second cycle
my lowest resistance is 80%kinetic highest 90%thermal
so 4xCN siege's 3xcn bcu's are doing wtf awsome.
The 40km tractorbeam range and 1250m3 cargobay is sweet.
with 2 beams on, i put a drone range link, so i can send drones 71km
chew down on npc's before they drive into my torpedo range.
usually i dont loot, but hey since i've got the room and the range for tractor beams..
I guess it makes up for the 16-25% drop in damage from the cnr..
someone calculated 16% drop.. but i dont think they realize..
CNR mission runners use FIVE navy BCU's most of the time.
The 3% on the last bcu is worth its slot when you've got a perma tank already.
However i've noticed a glitch.. my torp range is 40km the enemy is 30km and driving towards me.
I thought it was lag, at first but.. out of 20 torpedos 9 did no damage. they just fking missed..
Im sure if I make a thread about it, it'll be full of TORP RANGE NERF spam in 5seconds..
but I was well within range, the lifespan of the torpedo was not reached.
The torpedo was not chasing a frigate for 8 seconds, it was flying straight towards an oncoming battleship that was already in range.
The largest problem with Torps right now is they dont get up to speed fast enough they still have the old calculation for rate of speed increase do you only get about 65% of max range out of them because of this.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.12.18 17:28:00 -
[69]
I've only seriously evaluated the golem since my mission running char is trained Caldari
And, I have no plans to get one. It's arguable that it's not even an improvement over the CNR. It seems like it would make a great 'in between' ship taking you from the raven to the CNR, as it has a better tank than the raven, but by the time you can get a CNR your tank should be fine.
If the golem were cheaper, and it's skill requirements less absurdly high, I could see folks buying one to get out of a raven and into something with a better tank, as the built in golem advantages help make up for a weakness in skills and fittings.
Unfortunately being as skill intensive and expensive as it is, it can't really be used to fit this niche.
Maybe they'll be boosted in the future. That would be kind of nice.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.19 00:20:00 -
[70]
Some pretty good discussion here so far.
What do you guys think would help fix the really low sales performance of the new T2 BS? Do you think that they need to be buffed in order to offer more value for the ISK?
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Roland San
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Posted - 2007.12.19 02:59:00 -
[71]
Because it is skill intensive and expensive, doesn't that make it all the more attractive?
If I were highly skilled, and had isk to burn, I'd love to have a marauder, not because of how it differs from a CNR, but because it's an elite BS. It has qualities of its own, and I suspect much of the fun would be experimenting with fits and situations to extract the best out of it, and to see what kind of niche it will absolutely own.
While it may appear on the surface to be a CNR II, I'd agree with one of the comments above about how it's different. It's another BS option, and it's about how it fits with your style of play.
That being said, while I can invent and build them, I'd just wait for the T2 component silly season to settle a bit first. At this point in time, in terms of profitability, it's just a sea of red. I guess most people know that, and apart from the early adopters or those who've stockpiled components for their builds, it's hard to see the situation changing unless component prices stabilise.
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Attonasi
Aranas de Guerra
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Posted - 2007.12.19 04:35:00 -
[72]
I am going to focus on the CNR vs. Golem discussion since these are mission running ships and CNR's are considered the best solo mission running ship now. The numbers are not obvious either way and the slight paper difference in DPS gives the advantage to the CNR at first. The built in CCC of a golem negates the 1 slot advantage the CNR has over the golem for rigs. The 7.5%/lvl booster bonus is effectively an additional mid slot giving the golem essentially 2 more midslots than a CNR. IMO the dps advantage the CNR has on paper is negated when you factor the target painter bonus and free target painter you get. We were able to 1 volley cruisers in missions on sisi. And the tank was of course still far superior even without a shield boost amp.
I haven't tried it yet though I think the tractor beam bonus will make it possible to start looting again as the Golem could group up the cans while killing and severely reduce looting.salvage time after missions. Right now it takes way too long to loot and it isn't worth the time. I think that as people realize some of the hidden strangths of the Golem they will get over their spreadsheet fixation.
Also if people are only interested in cash they only run high sec missions. Low sec missions are for adrenaline and nothing else, and thats not a bad thing. There will be very few golems getting ganked in low sec.
I hate forums
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Attonasi
Aranas de Guerra
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Posted - 2007.12.19 04:56:00 -
[73]
I guess I should also post a bit about the production and cost side since our group has built and sold Widows, Panthers, and Redeemers. We have BPO's, produce our own bpc's, and manufacture all of the components from material we buy from the market. We have maxed invention skills for these three races on our industrial toons and of course maxed building skills. They are also mining datacores from the appropriate agents. We account for these costs as we could just scrap the project and sell the BPC's and datacores. I have a degree in business that I don't use in RL, but somehow find a way to apply to eve, go figure.
We planned for this release for the last month and stocked up on a lot of materials and components before the release and consequently have a lot of components we bought cheap and are worth a lot of money now. If nothing else we participated in some impromptu futures trading.
To explicitly answer the question we are going to lose money on the ships. The materials that build the ships could all be sold for more at the current market prices than the finished product. We made money because of the inflation in material cost. I believe that component/material costs will drop over the next months to more suitable levels and there will be a corresponding drop in T2 ship prices that will negate the current inflationary period cause by the component price spike. All of the crap and whining about how ships are too expensive and people are losing money building them will be forgotten and eve will move on.
I think the price spike in materials drove the production costs of these ships up higher than their value and that is the scenario playing out now. When the cerebus came out there were no discussions about whether or not it was better than a caracal or even a Navy issue caracal. The differences in power were equivalent to the difference in skill req's and build costs. I think Golems are better, but not that much better, and in order to justify that cost the differences should be more like comparing stabbers and vagabonds.
I hate forums
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.19 05:05:00 -
[74]
Thanks for your input Attonasi, that's exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. I agree that the performance difference and cost/benefit issues with the Marauders over what is already available (who ever thought that faction BS would be considered 'cheap' lol?) need some work before Marauders are sought after by the general Eve population.
To that end, what sort of buffs would be enough to make them worthwhile? Both Marauders and BlackOps?
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Meyesta
Gallente
The Pretty Things
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Posted - 2007.12.19 05:30:00 -
[75]
I only went about inventing the Widow. It has turned out to be a huge mistake. There is no profit currently on these things. I've built two and they haven't sold, plus I have components for another two. I believe this is due to the insane requirements to fly them, jump skills, covert ops skills, BS 5. Only current capital pilots have the options to fly these. Those capital pilots now need a reason to fly them. The only real reason to fly them is for their Portal. As for fast moving gangs they don't really cut it and when caught will die, particularly with Heavy Intradictors. However this adds additional skill requirements, plus an additional character with a mod that is insanely expensive on their covert ops. Not to mention extra skill requirements. So their actual role in combat is limited and well other things do it better.
When I worked out the cost of building and inventing the widows, I came up with 780mil buying components from Jita. I worked out I could drop my overall costs if I built all the components myself, by maybe 20%. But due to component build time and amount of components required, production slows down, even with multiple component BPO's.
I guess my problem with this is T2 BS require a huge investment of ISK to be part of, roughly 780mil per BS you haven't sold, meaning you need components and materials in reserve, etc.. etc.. to keep your production chain ticking over. Alone I can't even come close to keeping this up as my ISK reserves just died, no sales means no income, meaning no more BS in production. Meaning this was production for the super wealthy corporations, like they need more avenues to add to their insane wealth.
To anyone who said this was an ISK sink, I really can't see how you can believe that. All this is doing is shuffling ISK around to other players. I would also suggest that the players who are getting the vast bulk of the ISK out of this, are already super rich. The skills, well if they were enough of an ISK sink, then inflation wouldn't be a problem as we are always buying skills for most characters we own.
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Renosha Argaron
Caldari
IronPig
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2007.12.19 05:35:00 -
[76]
There is someone in choonka trying to sell a Marauder for 1.8 BIL!!!.....personaly i would'nt buy one at that price but im sure there is an idiot out there willing to fork out for it so they can be one of the first to have one.
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Calimor
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.19 06:01:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Demarcus
Ya a Caldari BS with three heavy energy neuts and the equivalent of eight cruise launchers and an extra mid slot for tank. Man that sucks I don't know why anyone would want one of those. 
You're trolling, right?
Yea I think you are.
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Calimor
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.19 06:13:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Thanks for your input Attonasi, that's exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. I agree that the performance difference and cost/benefit issues with the Marauders over what is already available (who ever thought that faction BS would be considered 'cheap' lol?) need some work before Marauders are sought after by the general Eve population.
To that end, what sort of buffs would be enough to make them worthwhile? Both Marauders and BlackOps?
Golems would be much more popular if instead of TP they had a RoF Bonus, because of the Torpedo range nerf. People has been asking it for a while, and they'd be much better if that was the case because they would finally have an advantage over the Raven/CNR instead of being a much more expensive trade-off.
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insulubria
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Posted - 2007.12.19 06:30:00 -
[79]
Doing about 1000dps atm, on overload.
Im toating around Nanite repair paste for good measure..
avg resistance 85% (91% on overload)
310 shields per second(sustainable)
3 tractor beams, i just got 1380hit against a mwd'ing cruiser :D
holy f**K im never going back to a cnr.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.19 09:30:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Calimor
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Thanks for your input Attonasi, that's exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. I agree that the performance difference and cost/benefit issues with the Marauders over what is already available (who ever thought that faction BS would be considered 'cheap' lol?) need some work before Marauders are sought after by the general Eve population.
To that end, what sort of buffs would be enough to make them worthwhile? Both Marauders and BlackOps?
Golems would be much more popular if instead of TP they had a RoF Bonus, because of the Torpedo range nerf. People has been asking it for a while, and they'd be much better if that was the case because they would finally have an advantage over the Raven/CNR instead of being a much more expensive trade-off.
LOL. RoF bonus on a Golem. Don't think so. Doing even *more* dps than it already does while tanking like crazy...
See the post from the guy above me. Hits the nail on the head.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
pershphanie
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2007.12.19 11:42:00 -
[81]
Originally by: insulubria
Doing about 1000dps atm, on overload.
Im toating around Nanite repair paste for good measure..
avg resistance 85% (91% on overload)
310 shields per second(sustainable)
3 tractor beams, i just got 1380hit against a mwd'ing cruiser :D
holy f**K im never going back to a cnr.
lol. but everyone who tried them on EFT or quickfit says they suck. you must be mistaken. |
Brackun
the united
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Posted - 2007.12.19 13:01:00 -
[82]
I was in my Golem on test with Marauders level 2, and I can safely say when I'm sitting in FFA1 that it is an absolute beast. My perspective is skewed using a full Crystal set, but I tanked about 5 battleships and blew up an Abaddon and Kronos before popping (I tanked approximately 130k damage). It doesn't seem like a bad ship at all. To me it's worth the price on Tranquility, with Marauders 5 I predict fun times ahead.
Of course maybe there are ships that tank more damage than that, and defeat more battleships under the same circumstances, but my Golem only went down when it got hit by a neutralizer Dominix  .
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Fer DeLance
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Posted - 2007.12.19 13:04:00 -
[83]
Beeing a gallente, i was looking forward to buying a Kronos... but now that i see the ship specs, i really try, but i can not find any good point to buy it (for running Level IV missions). I am using a Mega Navy Issue, and no matter how i compare it to the Kronos, i alway come to the conclusion that the Mega is doing the job better... Kronos has bigger Calibration, but good luck with those 2 rig slots in comparison to 3 rig slots of the Navy Mega... Kronos has slightly better resistance in both kinetic and thermal, but Navy Mega has an extra low slot (where you can fit any type of armor hardener). Kronos has much less power grid. Of course 4 of it's weapons will do the same damage as all 8 weapon slots of Navy Mega... I really don't think that you can use those extra high slots for anything else than maybe slavagers and tractor beams... Even if powergrid is enough for a couple or more of Heavy Nos (i doupt it), CPU wont be enough... To increase either powergrid or CPU one will have to "waste" a valuable low slot... or maybe one of those two rig slots... What i really believe Kronos is missing in order to be a serious choise, is one more low slot... But i will buy one, and use it as a slavaging - looting boat. That's all i think it does best at the moment.
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Okkie2
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Posted - 2007.12.19 13:13:00 -
[84]
Originally by: pershphanie
Originally by: insulubria
Doing about 1000dps atm, on overload.
Im toating around Nanite repair paste for good measure..
avg resistance 85% (91% on overload)
310 shields per second(sustainable)
3 tractor beams, i just got 1380hit against a mwd'ing cruiser :D
holy f**K im never going back to a cnr.
lol. but everyone who tried them on EFT or quickfit says they suck. you must be mistaken.
Well, he's not mistaken because a Golem tanks a lot better then a CNR. But if you use it for missions you will need a tank that is just enough. If you compare a CNR and a Golem with such a tank you'll notice the CNR has more DPS and thus will do missions quicker. So a Golem is a very nice ship and is very easy for missions because it has a much better tank, but it does not do them quicker.
On Sisi i've flown several missions with a Golem and it's much easier, but still slower. A golem is a great ship and i will probably buy one sooner or later, but it does not beat the CNR at missionrunning.
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Kira Direll
Niflhel
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2007.12.19 14:25:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Kira Direll on 19/12/2007 14:32:23
Originally by: Fer DeLance
Kronos has much less power grid. Of course 4 of it's weapons will do the same damage as all 8 weapon slots of Navy Mega... I really don't think that you can use those extra high slots for anything else than maybe slavagers and tractor beams... Even if powergrid is enough for a couple or more of Heavy Nos (i doupt it), CPU wont be enough... To increase either powergrid or CPU one will have to "waste" a valuable low slot... or maybe one of those two rig slots...
actually you can fit the weapons, 2 diminishing heavy NOS and a decent tank (maybe a tank that is just enough for missions, meaning no permatank) all with one PDU II in the lows. its not that bad but cost/benefit is way out of balance.
edit: and the same tank as permatank without PDU II and slightly less DPS you can get with a 120 million hyperion (before fitting). spending 600 million more ISK just for the possibilities of salvagers, tractors and a bigger cargohold (perhaps better tracking on some) or not is up to the buyer/user. to me the advantages arent worth 600 million.
Originally by: Okkie2
Well, he's not mistaken because a Golem tanks a lot better then a CNR. But if you use it for missions you will need a tank that is just enough. If you compare a CNR and a Golem with such a tank you'll notice the CNR has more DPS and thus will do missions quicker. So a Golem is a very nice ship and is very easy for missions because it has a much better tank, but it does not do them quicker.
the golem has other advantages, thats not the point. its cost/benefit. the golem may be worth 600-700 million (dont know the CNR prizes atm) but most of the other marauders are not.
its not the marauders that suck, its the cost/benefit that sucks.
---
Disclaimer: sadly, all dumbass opinions or expressions i make _do_ reflect on my corp. they might not reflect on individual members, but who am i to not take responsibility and act accoordingly? |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.29 22:04:00 -
[86]
I wonder why people keep saying that the Abaddon is better than the Paladin.
1) Paladin has a built in, HUGE cap bonus, negating the the difference in rig slots. A Paladin doesn't even need cap rigs to sustain it's cap at all, whereas the Abaddon pretty much always needs all 3 slots filled with CCC's. How people think that this isn't a clear win for the Paladin is beyond me.
2) Paladin can fit 4 guns AND 3 utility slots. It does the same damage as an Abaddon at level 5 marauders (a skill *i* will be training), but where it stops there for the Abaddon, the Paladin can fit 3 mroe mods in it's highs without sacrificing damage. Try it with neuts, nos, salvagars or whatever.
3) Paladin has slightly higher exp/kin resists, plus a 7.5% rep bonus per level. At level 5 marauders this means effectively about 40% better tanking than an Abaddon in comparable setups.
4) More low slots available on the Paladin, largely because of it's cap efficiency. The abaddon needs a CPR in it's lows to run a dual rep setup, the Paladin does not. On dual rep setups, this effectively means the Paladin has 3 slots more 'free', 1 low and 2 rig slots, than the Abaddon.
The only area where the Abaddon outshines the Paladin is a PvP buffer tank rather than an active tank, but the difference is less pronounced than the advantages the Paladin has over the Abaddon in other areas. The sensor strength is the only real weakpoint of the Paladin currently, and when ECM is involved, it mostly doesn't matter whether you have 10 or 30 sensor strength, you'll be jammed anyway.
Of course, the Abaddon is vastly preferable in PvP simply because it costs so much less, and as far as PvP is involved, the extra costs of the Paladin doesn't weigh up to any advantage it may bring in PvP. However, for PvE, the Paladin easily outperforms the Abaddon in all areas.
EVE History Wiki
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.12.29 22:47:00 -
[87]
The black ops seems like excellent ships. Just the super high skill requirements.
The first major group that gets their use down is going to have a week or two of utter domination before the enemy adjusts.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2007.12.29 23:58:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Tharrn
It might take a while but at some point the idiots will figure out that selling barely above cost isn't worth the hassle :P
you want to put a friendly wager on this actually happening?
go look at the morons selling implants in jita. an implant that costs 11 million isk and 11k lp are being sold for 14 and 15 million isk. this has been going on for a while so apparently those guys aren't learning anything from their experiences.
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oniplE
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.30 00:08:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Originally by: Joss Sparq
Edited by: Joss Sparq on 18/12/2007 14:36:23
Originally by: Gner Dechast
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 11:16:23
Cost to build mauroder = 600mil including invention costs. This 800-900mil nonsense is what the manufacturers want you to beleive!
/me has plenty of maurader BPC's & builds them
I don't know what your angle is, gross failure in math or some secret source for components - maybe something else... I've done my share of calculations and I concur with the more popular conclusion that the build price really is 800-900mill 
/signed, I too call shenanigans upon them.
yeah, and the Abaddon costs 180mil to build. Newbie manufacturers/inventors are the problem. Pimp inventors/manufacturers know how to make isk outta this
You know, i started calculating to prove you wrong cuz there's no chance they have a build + invention cost of 600m, or thats what i thought...
I used fair prices and came up with a build + invention cost of 630m, using the proper decryptor(s). Using no decryptors will push it towards 800m, same as using the wrong decryptor.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.12.30 00:15:00 -
[90]
CCP mistake: Spend more than 2 second thinkign on making somethign for carebears. Next time CCP, remember this game is about industry and combat.
And give us a REAL tier 3 T2 BS when the time comes. A real PVP ship. Somethign that wil make me put 1 bil isk for pvp. BEcause if you give me somethign better than a machariel, I will for sure spend isk on it. And say good work CCP. And tell my friends how this game rules.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
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