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Vihravend
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Posted - 2007.12.19 17:23:00 -
[1]
For some reason I really like the concept of mining drones. I have trained up my skills and just about always fly 5 Mining Drone II's when I'm out mining.
However, it seems like NO ONE uses them but me. I do a lot of mining, and I just about never see others using mining drones. This makes me wonder why..
I personally think they are handy, and they add a little more ore to the hold each cycle, but they don't do that much. Especially when you consider all the different bonuses you can get for the 3 strips that I fit on my hulk. Be it a Mining Laser Upgrade or the Foreman bonus..etc.. you can get some crazy yield there..
Think, in excess of 1300 m3 per cycle.
The best mining drone I can fly (without the bonus rigs) can only do about 56.1 m3 per pull..
So lets compare 5 Mining Drone II to 1 Strip Miner I over the course of an hour (rounding numbers for easy math);
5xMining Drone II :: 55 m3 per cycle with 60 cycles in an hour times 5 drones = 16500m3 1xStrip Miner I :: 1250 m3 per cycle with 20 cycles in an hour = 25000m3
So 5 Mining Drone II don't equal even one Strip Miner 1. They don't even come close and I used very low numbers for the strip miner. Add to that all the bonuses, the various mining upgrades you can get, the fleet bonuses and what you can do with a strip miner 2..etc.. you'd see a lot higher numbers from the strip miner.
Now multiply that by 3 as that's what a hulk can fit.. Suddenly I'm forced to question the usefulness of mining drones.. and wondering if CCP is trying to make them go away.
Back when you could fly 15 of them, those numbers made a lot more sense.. but now? Not so much.
Can we get some new mining drones? Or some ability via mid/low slot items to boost their performance? Hell, I think we should be able to fly more of them than the 5 we are currently limited to. Lets go back to 15.. I don't see the reason not to.
I don't really understand the LAG argument because how often do people use mining drones in a fight? More over, when I go to most belts I'm one of maybe 2 people there which means there are a grand total of 10 to 15 drones flying at any one time. Sorry but that doesn't cause lag û if it does there are bigger issues with the code..
It really does seem that CCP doesn't like mining drones and I'm not sure why...
Could some of you shed some light on the subject? I really want some new drones or some ways to make mining drones more viable.. As of now I feel like I have wasted the skill points..
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DoctorDeath
Minmatar Platinum Dragons Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.19 17:29:00 -
[2]
its not lag nor is it thay are worthless most people Solo mine with more then one account
to get the most out of mining drones you must be like 3 to 5k from the roids.
so its not that are worthless its just less effective but as a whole mining drones are Great for mining. just need to watch for rats and pull them in before that get popped!
*!*
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Vihravend
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Posted - 2007.12.19 17:33:00 -
[3]
Originally by: DoctorDeath its not lag nor is it thay are worthless most people Solo mine with more then one account
to get the most out of mining drones you must be like 3 to 5k from the roids.
so its not that are worthless its just less effective but as a whole mining drones are Great for mining. just need to watch for rats and pull them in before that get popped!
See my numbers above. How can you say they are great for mining? I'm not saying they are worthless, but they are worth a lot less than they should be.
I know fully well how to use them, and know how to get the best return for them .. even still they don't come even close to a single tech one strip..
Add to that the fact that you have to yank them in any time a baby with a rattle shows up and that further diminishes your returns..
Mining drones in their current state need help.. If they were that "great" as you say, then you'd see a lot more people using them. Since I see virtually no one using them, then it's likely they aren't that great after all..
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Reggie Stoneloader
Teikoku Trade Conglomerate Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.12.19 19:27:00 -
[4]
Using your math, the 16500m3 is a 22% boost in yield compared to the 75000m3 that the strip miners are bringing in. How much would you pay for an implant that added 22% to mining yield?
Crusades: Security Status |
Vihravend
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Posted - 2007.12.19 21:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Using your math, the 16500m3 is a 22% boost in yield compared to the 75000m3 that the strip miners are bringing in. How much would you pay for an implant that added 22% to mining yield?
Is there such a thing? If there is I am not familiar with it..
Right now, what affects the drone mining yield?
Mining Drone Operation of course and Drone Interfacing of course
... uh.. then what?
Drone Mining Augmentor Rig which is nice but can only fit 2..
... but that's it as far as I know..
Mining Foreman doesn't do anything, and I believe it should..
What else is there? Please tell me because I honestly don't know and I want to think that mining drones can't be as bad as they currently are...
Maybe I just don't have the right stuff..
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Reggie Stoneloader
Teikoku Trade Conglomerate Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.12.20 06:44:00 -
[6]
Maybe you misunderstood. I'm saying that a ship with three strip miners and a flight of drones mines 22% faster than a ship with three strip miners, according to your math above. If you had a ship that had three strip miners, and someone said, "Hey, I have a trick that'll get you 22% more ore out of those rocks!" would you reply, "Bah, whatever that game feature it's it's grossly underpowered and CCP obviously wants nobody to use it"?
I think you wouldn't. Drones are fine as they are.
Crusades: Security Status |
Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.20 06:58:00 -
[7]
When solo, or small-group mining, combat drones are usually deployed for defence against wandering rats. Solo miners usually trade off that last bit of optimal mining ability for the ability to keep mining with everything intact. (and not have to constantly change ships when a rat appears) Mining drones don't add a bit to defence ability, and rats seem to prefer going after mining drones instead of the ship controlling them. This gets a little expensive when running T2 drones. (no shield, and pitiful armor make for a short combat life)
In larger mining ops, where there's a guard or two, mining drones have more value to the operation as the miners can focus on pure mining and leave combat to ships better suited.
As for nobody using mining drones....I dunno about that....some of my corpies ask for them now and then, and I keep supplying them. _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2007.12.20 10:18:00 -
[8]
Mining drones are here just for the vexor and the arbitrator...
And for your 56.1m3/drone cycle, either you calculated some travel time (were they mining a bid roid or were you not close enough?), or... You have drone interfacing at 4? Sounds like a lvl 4 in drone interfacing. So, at drone interfacting and mining drone 5, you get 62.5 per T2 drone and if placed carefully, you loose like 3 seconds per cycle which means a 63 seconds cycle time.
in an hour, it makes 3600/63*62.5*5=17857 Maybe you can reduce the loss to 2 seconds with small valuable roids, but they get exhaused sooner and you need to move, which at the end is the same.
As they're made for the ships with drone mining bonus, you get 1,5* the mining value : 26785 just from drones and a vexor can equip 4 T2 mining lasers (don't think about upgrades, not enough CPU!). So, this makes the vexor the most skill intensive mining cruiser, but also, the best one. And think that you can still have medium drones for defense and I kept an armor repairer and AB in my fit (other lows are cpu upgrades usually and meds cap rechargers or nothing, last high is usually offline remote repairer for the combat drones).
Now, this is still quite low, this could be better, and it could be improved this way : Give us back the harvester mining drone, give those drones a mwd, add them a shield or more than 1 point of armor. If they were inline with the speed of the light drones, the actual mining drones would be easy to use and easy to switch to combat drones when you got rats on you. If we had bigger drones (harvesters that have no more BPs and their T2 version) available, it would be more efficient.
I think that the most important is the speed of the drones, they are really annoyingly slow! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Vihravend
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Posted - 2007.12.20 16:15:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Vihravend on 20/12/2007 16:16:53
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
Maybe you misunderstood. I'm saying that a ship with three strip miners and a flight of drones mines 22% faster than a ship with three strip miners, according to your math above. If you had a ship that had three strip miners, and someone said, "Hey, I have a trick that'll get you 22% more ore out of those rocks!" would you reply, "Bah, whatever that game feature it's it's grossly underpowered and CCP obviously wants nobody to use it"?
Nope sorry Reggie, that logic doesn't wash for me.. I am only using the comparison to the T1 Strips and all the associated bonuses you can get with the strips to point out that mining drones are sorely lacking in their production abilities. 5 T2 mining drones don't produce even half the ore that a T1 unmodified strip (meaning skills only).
Sorry but that's broken.
Originally by: Helen Hunts In larger mining ops, where there's a guard or two, mining drones have more value to the operation as the miners can focus on pure mining and leave combat to ships better suited.
Maybe, but the numbers above assumed NO travel time, NO put away because rat showed up, nothing.. That was pure mining... That's still a really low amount of ore..
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Mining drones are here just for the vexor and the arbitrator..
So you're saying that MINING drones are designed for combat cruisers and don't do well on those pesky mining vehicles? hehe that's kinda silly.. =p
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac You have drone interfacing at 4?
Holy crap I am only at 4... Well that's on my list now.. thanks!
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac So, at drone interfacting and mining drone 5, you get 62.5 per T2 drone and if placed carefully, you loose like 3 seconds per cycle which means a 63 seconds cycle time.
My numbers above assumed ZERO travel time. Which of course we know isn't ever going to be the case. So even with my BEST numbers (zero travel time and very low T1 strip miner yield) mining drones still need help.
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Now, this is still quite low, this could be better, and it could be improved this way : Give us back the harvester mining drone, give those drones a mwd, add them a shield or more than 1 point of armor. If they were inline with the speed of the light drones, the actual mining drones would be easy to use and easy to switch to combat drones when you got rats on you. If we had bigger drones (harvesters that have no more BPs and their T2 version) available, it would be more efficient.
Making the drones faster would be a huge start. Their travel time sucks and is one reason most don't use them I think because the second a rat shows up if you're not on the ball you will lose one.
Bigger harvesters would be good.. No clue why harvesters went away.. I'm sure there is a reason though, I just wish someone from CCP would show up and tell us why..
I'll accept the "mining drones are fine" argument if CCP would just make it and tell us the reasoning behind it. I'm sure its good, I just don't know what it is..
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Rjaiajik Kajvoril
Amarr Autonomous Systems
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Posted - 2007.12.20 16:38:00 -
[10]
A lot of people who mine use Medium Scout drones as protection from rats so they can AFK mine. AFK mining in anything but 1.0 space without drones or support is suicide. (and it's not a smart plan even with them).
RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge |
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Vihravend
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Posted - 2007.12.20 16:46:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rjaiajik Kajvoril A lot of people who mine use Medium Scout drones as protection from rats so they can AFK mine. AFK mining in anything but 1.0 space without drones or support is suicide. (and it's not a smart plan even with them).
If you fly mining drones you DON'T afk mine. I can assure you any field you go to where a user is using mining drones, s/he's there.
This is because the second a rat shows up, you MUST pull them in or they will get pop'd. Rats seem to always go for the mining drones.
Mining drones die quickly, they are slow to move..
Add the fact that you have to yank them in until its safe every few minutes and you realize that their ore yield is even worse.. There is no real way to calculate that mathematically but just assume one cycle is a couple minutes long every 10 minutes or so.
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Henry Loenwind
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Posted - 2007.12.20 17:51:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Henry Loenwind on 20/12/2007 17:54:39
Originally by: Vihravend 1250 m3 per cycle
BTW: Max is 1961.03656076 m¦ per cycle. Also the cycle time can be reduced to 139.50 seconds, that gives a hulk 2530.36975582 m¦ per minute (OMG, yeah). And that with a range of 22.5 km, even without that useless ORE implant set.
And about drones: I can tank any hi-sec belt-rat passivly, so I don't need medium scout drones. But, as any belt-rat that spawns insta-pops a mining drone, I don't use them either...
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Vihravend
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Posted - 2007.12.20 19:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Henry Loenwind Edited by: Henry Loenwind on 20/12/2007 17:54:39
Originally by: Vihravend 1250 m3 per cycle
BTW: Max is 1961.03656076 m¦ per cycle. Also the cycle time can be reduced to 139.50 seconds, that gives a hulk 2530.36975582 m¦ per minute (OMG, yeah). And that with a range of 22.5 km, even without that useless ORE implant set.
And about drones: I can tank any hi-sec belt-rat passivly, so I don't need medium scout drones. But, as any belt-rat that spawns insta-pops a mining drone, I don't use them either...
Good post Henry thanks.. This furthers my point..
My example used a fairly modest T1 strip miner.. Now compare mining drones to Henry's example above and wow they suck..
Look at it from a skills perspective.. what does it take to fly 5 Mining drone II versus using ONE T1 strip.. (And I'm going to get these wrong so please correct me -- not sure how to find out actuall skill point costs so these are rough.)
5x Mining Drones II:
Drones Level V, Mining Level IV, Mining Drone Operation V and Drone Interfacing V if you want full yield
That's nearly 2.3 million skill points.
1x Strip Miner 1:
Mining IV -- That's what 128k?
Now lets add in the smallest ship needed;
Industry V, Science IV, Astrogeology III, Mining Barge I
Does that even add up to a million?
The more I look into this the more I think mining drones need help...
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Karanth
Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2007.12.20 23:11:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Karanth on 20/12/2007 23:11:42 Imagine, if you will, a parent working in a construction site on 'bring your kids to work day'. While the parent is doing some excavation with a backhoe, the kids are sitting over in the sandbox with some shovels.
After an hour, a good deal of earth has been moved by the parent. They come down to visit the kids, who have piled all of the sand in the box into one corner. They say, "Look! Look what we moved! We worked hard, didn't we?"
And the parent, who easily moved more than one hundred times more stuff, smiles and gives the kids a hug.
EDIT: I do like mining drones, but their use is almost as situational as sentries, or other drones.
All that's left...
There is only one sig hijack that matters, the orginal and only member of the hijack squad. me. -Eris. ps Black russians are better then beer. Well, there's not many of *us* left! -Rauth
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Jason Travers
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Posted - 2007.12.21 03:28:00 -
[15]
Mining drones are good but I myself only use them in 1.0 space for the reason of the rats. when the buggers spawn they go directly for the drones first. and to top it off you have only room to carry 5 mining drones and 4 lite combat drones in a hulk which is ok. but if you are at any distance from the roids, by the time you get your miners in and the combat out you've already lost one or 2 miners.
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Vihravend
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Posted - 2007.12.28 14:42:00 -
[16]
Would it be possible to get some comment from CCP on this issue?
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.12.28 15:51:00 -
[17]
i think it is a lot since the hulk is not a drone ship and the 3 miners as max means that they give so much more per miner..
what your saying is kind of like saying that it is not fair that the drones on a golem doesn't do as much dps as 1 launcher (be it a cruise or torp).
the mining drones are fine in my opinion, although i think there should be mining ships that specializes in using mining drones would be kind of cool ^^. ----------------- fun little game: http://world7.monstersgame.co.uk/?ac=vid&vid=113097917 |
Vihravend
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Posted - 2007.12.28 16:28:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Buyerr the mining drones are fine in my opinion, although i think there should be mining ships that specializes in using mining drones would be kind of cool ^^.
That might be a good answer.. but a mining ship that just uses drones would need to SERIOUSLY boost the output of the drones or else it isn't worth it..
As to the comparison I'm not sure I follow. I'm comparing 5 tier 2 (top of the line) drones and all the skills required, to ONE strip miner I and all the skills it requires.
5 Drones cost more, the skill cost is much higher, the time required to become proficient with them is higher, they are harder to use due to rats, they have a travel time which adds quite a lot to the cycle length, etc.. And yet, they don't do anywhere near as well.. And I mean not even close..
Right now, there is no real use for drone mining. There isn't a super drone mining ship..
Sure the Hulk isn't meant to be a drone miner.. but which ship is?
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WGAnubis Marrith
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.28 19:39:00 -
[19]
Having recently started using mining drone II's myself I really think that the combined skills for using them is excessive. I mean lets face facts here, the only way mining drones can rival a Mining Laser II with a t2 mining crystal is if your in a carrier in a asteroid belt. Really the requirments for the drones needs to be reduced as it seems only deticated miners use them to any extent.
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Reggie Stoneloader
Teikoku Trade Conglomerate Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.12.28 20:08:00 -
[20]
I think it's pretty clear that mining drones aren't meant to be a primary source of ore retrieval, just like light scout drones aren't meant to be a major source of DPS. If what you're asking for is a boost to your Hulk's yield, then forget it. The upper limit of solo mining yield has been defined, and is ample.
Crusades: Security Status |
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Vihravend
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Posted - 2007.12.28 23:09:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Vihravend on 28/12/2007 23:10:33 I will give you that mining drones shouldn't perform as well as 3 fully kitted up strips on a hulk.. That makes sense.. In fact, if they did I would be making the opposite complaint.
My point is, and still stands as, if I were to equip a single BASIC MINER on my ship, I would out mine a MINING DRONE II...
And unless you can prove otherwise, that implies to me that mining drones aren't worth a damn right now.. Or at least are hurting.. More over, Harvesters have all but disappeared, which implies CCP wants them gone..
What about adding some scripts or something to mining drones that would make them behave differently?
One that makes them mine a little more but slower, one that makes them zippy speedy, but mine less.. etc..
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader ... just like light scout drones aren't meant to be a major source of DPS ...
Then where is the mining drone equivalent to a medium scout drone? heavy scout drone? Fighters? etc..
Save the drones!
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Menthal
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.28 23:53:00 -
[22]
it would be cool to have a fighter sized mining drone. like a procurer sort of thing (1 laser) would be cooler still if you could fit things in there (more shield, more armor, another laser, mwd and the sorts). Offcourse you'ld need a new mining drone skill to be able to use 1 and each level of that skill increases it's travel speed and/or optimal range?
pretty yellow beams
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Vihravend
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.12.30 02:48:00 -
[23]
It would be kinda cool to have bigger mining drones.. ---
CCP -- Fix Mining Drones!
In SAK 3+ years and counting |
Kalda Centauri
Gallente Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2007.12.30 04:09:00 -
[24]
The reason why CCP doesn't upgrade mining drones is because no one uses them.
The reason why no one uses them is because they suck.
The reason why they suck is because CCP never upgrades them.
It's a viscious cycle really, though I would love to see a boost to the tanking ability of mining drones before they change anything else about them. Something about them going boom after one shot doesn't sit right with me =(.
As to a mining ship that specializes in Drones, I hear the Vexor is like that. With max Cruiser skill on, it recieves an extra 50% I believe to mining drone yield (10% per rank).
Originally by: Eidolon Ra Insanity is the gift of immortality without morality.
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Vinni
Caldari All Sales Are Final
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Posted - 2007.12.30 04:12:00 -
[25]
/signed
I like the additional tiered drones, but... we have basic, T1 and T2 drones already. Harvesters aren't that good since the release ofthe T2 drones.... maybe just revamp the stats on the mining drones so they aren't so fragile and can survive more than a couple hits from rats.
As for the yield, I'm happy with them; it's nothing to sneeze at. It's like having another stripper I, as said earlier and I'll take anything. Just keep in mind that a mining drone is less affective with heavier ore. Keep them on the veld rocks, and they move it along rather nicely.
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Vihravend
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.12.30 04:21:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vinni /signed As for the yield, I'm happy with them; it's nothing to sneeze at. It's like having another stripper I, as said earlier and I'll take anything. Just keep in mind that a mining drone is less affective with heavier ore. Keep them on the veld rocks, and they move it along rather nicely.
Its not anything like having another strip. I currently get 1458.22m3 per cycle with a strip - and 67.25m3 with a drone.. That isnt much alike.. (though comparing a drone to a strip isn't fair I realize)
Also, the ore doesn't matter since it harvests in m3 per cycle. So a drone that does 67.25m3 cycle pulls 672.52 veld, or 13.45 Gneiss... but still 67.25 m3.
---
CCP -- Fix Mining Drones!
In SAK 3+ years and counting |
Vinni
Caldari All Sales Are Final
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Posted - 2007.12.30 04:29:00 -
[27]
but you can fly 5 mining drones and a mining drone cycle is 1 minute compared to the 3 minute stripper cycle. I'll let you do the math. It's nothing to snub.
Earlier in the thread, it was mentioned there are no additional benefits from gangs or modules for mining drones. There was a command link module that never got seeded and I think it was finally decided not to because of the mechanics in mining drones.
Harvesters are much slower than T2 and way too expensive, so they only outmine T2 drones when they are right on top of the roid. I don't see much value, because they are bigger than T2, so you can't equip defense drones in the covetor/hulk without giving up mining drone capacity. If I lose a T2 mining drone to a rat, I sigh.... kill the rat... and then release another drone. If I lost a harvester... I would groan.
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Vihravend
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.12.30 04:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Vinni but you can fly 5 mining drones and a mining drone cycle is 1 minute compared to the 3 minute stripper cycle. I'll let you do the math. It's nothing to snub.
1 x Modulated Strip Miner II = 542.2m3/min with projected skills -- 486.07m3/m currently 5 x Mining Drone II = 373.6m3/min with projected skills -- 336.26m3/m currently
Not anywhere near as good as a strip. "But those numbers are close! Look how close they are, surely that's as good as a strip.."
That's just not the case simply due to the fact that rats seem to hate mining drones with an amazing fervor, and that drones are painfully slow and require a great deal of travel time.
So that Mining drone amount above is absolute best case scenario, which cannot by the games very design ever exist.. Mining Drones need help right now.
Keep in mind, these numbers are the same numbers that mining drones used to do when you could fly 15 of them.. They lowered the number of drones... but the stats stayed the same. That just don't seem right.
---
CCP -- Fix Mining Drones!
In SAK 3+ years and counting |
Vinni
Caldari All Sales Are Final
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Posted - 2007.12.30 13:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vihravend
Originally by: Vinni but you can fly 5 mining drones and a mining drone cycle is 1 minute compared to the 3 minute stripper cycle. I'll let you do the math. It's nothing to snub.
1 x Modulated Strip Miner II = 542.2m3/min with projected skills -- 486.07m3/m currently 5 x Mining Drone II = 373.6m3/min with projected skills -- 336.26m3/m currently
Not to be terse, but I didn't say a modulated mining stripper II.
I concede your point that they didn't improve the stats on the mining drones, and I believe they made the normal combat drones strongers with that "revision" reducing the number of drones to 5. I'd be happier with stronger mining drones.
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Vihravend
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.12.30 17:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vinni Not to be terse, but I didn't say a modulated mining stripper II.
Fair enough..
1 x Modulated Strip Miner II = 542.2m3/min with projected skills -- 486.07m3/m currently 1 x Strip Miner I = 500.69m3/min with projected skills -- 448.68m3/m currently Not a huge difference.
5 x Mining Drone II = 373.6m3/min with projected skills -- 336.26m3/m currently
5 x Basic Miners = 373.90m3/m with current skills.. and there are ships that can fit this easily.
So.. 5 Mining Drone II's at my best skills are out mined right now by 5 basic miners using my current skills.
That's jacked up when you consider the amount of skills and the time it took to get to being able to use Mining Drone II's. Of course basic miners have a steep skill requirement too..
Originally by: Vinni
I concede your point that they didn't improve the stats on the mining drones, and I believe they made the normal combat drones strongers with that "revision" reducing the number of drones to 5. I'd be happier with stronger mining drones.
I wish they would gives them.. CCP doesn't seem to care.. And I think there is some truth to the thought that they wont give it to us because people think they suck.. so no one uses them.. etc.. ---
CCP -- Fix Mining Drones!
In SAK 3+ years and counting |
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