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Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2007.12.23 09:20:00 - [31] This is like saying the Vagabond is useless because it doesn't have the powergrid to fit artillery. Why would you want to fit artilley to a ship like that? It's so clearly meant for autocannons. "You defame them. You can make **** up. You do anything to make CCP look as incompetent, biased, cheating, hacking as you possibly can." - a BoB member
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.12.23 09:32:00 - [32] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Vargur unlike all the other marauders can't fit his guns. Not in full ship fiting with all slots filled. It can't fit its guns even if the guns would be the only thing mount on the ship! you know, you cant fit full rack of tachs, just the guns, on a geddon, apoc, or abaddon. in fact, you need 2x grid rigs for all 3. JUST the guns...nothing else. now you know our pain. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:20:00 - [33] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 23/12/2007 10:22:33 I think some people here have missed the point. This thread is not a brainstorm to convert a crappy ship into something viable using 4billion ISK equipment. I think some people have taken it as a goal as a test to their fiting ability. Of course with so many named "Gisti" stuff any crappy ship can transform into a powerhouse. We are talking about the basis of this ship. We are not talking about its bonuses being good or bad. Some may like them some may not. Even if it had the needed powergrid some may still not like the bonuses it gives and still consider it crappy. But that is not the point. The point is that with such a crappy PG you are limited to AC only which for a 4 billion cost ship is crap and its unsuitable for missions. When was the last time you did a lvl 4 mission where the spawns are over 80km away bombarding you with torpedos (for some reason NPC's can despite the torp nerf!!! ) . Now you tell me how you would do it in an AC BS? Especially considering that into deadspace you can't fit MWD. (not that it would change much you d still be slow and your cap would be crap with the MWD but anyway , not an option even) No gisti super duper fiting of 10 billions can make you AC BS able to complete missions were loeads of enemies shoot you from a distance in fits you don't even have an AB. So i suggest to the wealthy's leave their offices and go try some mission instead of being based in speculations that have nothing to do with reality. I challenge anyone here that showed fitings of 4bil in a desperate attempt to show us how decent Vargur is. (guys if you don't get paid for your "services" it's a pity) How you would be able to reach and kill loads of cruisers firing at you all kinds of missiles from 70km distance using AC's in a BS size ship traveling with 188km and being able to tank in the meantime? You really must be joking
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:38:00 - [34] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 23/12/2007 10:43:30 Originally by: Kiva Ki Edited by: Kiva Ki on 23/12/2007 08:22:19 Originally by: HarryManback It's a good thing all pilots have over 4b in pocket change or that would simply be a ridiculously bad example of a ship setup. If you can't afford the fitting I mentioned, you have no business flying a marauder. If you fit an 800mil isk ship with t1 mods, no wonder you think it's too expensive for what it does. Also, my post was obviously a PvE fit. I use it for high end 0.0 exploration complexes. I have a second Vargur for PvP, and the fit is very different. I am going nuts here. I see various people saying how they have the cash to buy multiple Vargur's fit them with premium "named" equipment and willing to risk them at pvp. Probably something is missing here. You can make lots of money at Eve but unless you posess BPO's of tech 2 stuff i really can't see how you are able to have this kind of ISK's that provided you with the ISK base to play it masters of the game now (ISK's probably easily replenishable since you don't seem to care so much for the cost of the possible and after all eventual ship loss) without the use of "special" help and you may suspect what i mean. The thread is not for you anyway since you are not doing missions to get your cash are you? Your billions are coming from "other means" so we both know that your fancy ideas are not going to be put in use anyway.
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:07:00 - [35] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Vargur unlike all the other marauders can't fit his guns. Not in full ship fiting with all slots filled. It can't fit its guns even if the guns would be the only thing mount on the ship! you know, you cant fit full rack of tachs, just the guns, on a geddon, apoc, or abaddon. in fact, you need 2x grid rigs for all 3. JUST the guns...nothing else. now you know our pain. Yes i know and i am happy for you that Paladin is not suffering from this. But the ships you mentioned cost only 60 Armagedon 90 Apoc 140 Abbadon (well this ship is crap too unless for sniping only - crappy cap) . They still do insane damage for the money. But from a 1 billion cost ship needing 1+ year's time skills i am justified to ask something more. Am i not?
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:13:00 - [36] The problem with the vargur is the PG requirement of autocannons in general. All marauders have to low PG to fit a full rack of high end weapons + 3 neuts/nos/remote reps. CCP doesn't want marauders to be able of doing that, if the vargur gets enough PG to fit 4 1400's then it also has enough PG to fit 4 autocannons+3 neuts/nos/remote reps. There are 2 ways to prevent this, 1 give it very low PG so it can only fit ac's comfortably or totally revise PG need of autocannons in general. CCP choose to limit the vargur's PG since totally revamping autocannon PG and minmatar ship PG in general would take a lot more time (and probably give a lot more whines in general). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:22:00 - [37] Originally by: Reem Fairchild This is like saying the Vagabond is useless because it doesn't have the powergrid to fit artillery. Why would you want to fit artilley to a ship like that? It's so clearly meant for autocannons. Vargur can't fly like a Vagabond cause it isn't fast/agile enough. So think again. Vagabond can tackle and can leave if a fight is not going well because it has the speed and agility for that. You can try to fly a Vargur like a vagabond but it won't be better than a Tempest trying to do the same.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:37:00 - [38] Edited by: Shevar on 23/12/2007 11:39:44 Originally by: Zaran Darkstar For those that will say that the ship may is actlually made for lvl 4 missions and not PvP i ll add that it needs 3 RCII or 2 RCII = Auncilary Curent router Rig to be able to fit Arts and X-Large Shield Booster ( a must for lvl 4 missions not to mention that you are better with a cap Heavy Cap booster II which you can't fit even with the Rig and the 2 RCII and you will need 2 Rigs + 2RCII to fit that as well :( and you will still be tight in PG you won't be able to fit much else apart maybe Tractor Beams (so you can forget of energy Destabilisers or Vampires at the highs ) All the other mauraders are mush much better. All have something more to offer compaired to the normal BS's apart the Vargur that is plain useless. CCP please add more PG to Vargur on the next update. (it will still be weaker than the rest but at least not a plain joke as it is today) http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/39416/2004108668394296599_rs.jpg I would say it's at least better then the current tech1 minmatar ships for running missions, unless you can propose a rather significantly better mealstorm fitting? btw, I kinda fubarred on the AB the mael has a 10mn instead of 100mn fitted, but I would need a faction fit to lower CPU used to even fit a quad lif. So meh if anything it will only make the mael look better. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Shevar The problem with the vargur is the PG requirement of autocannons in general. All marauders have to low PG to fit a full rack of high end weapons + 3 neuts/nos/remote reps. Not true. In fact all the other Marauders can fit full rack of high end weapons + 3 neuts/nos/remote reps. Forget the nos/neuts etc. Vargur can't even fit the full rack of high end weapons ALONE! Quote: CCP doesn't want marauders to be able of doing that, if the vargur gets enough PG to fit 4 1400's then it also has enough PG to fit 4 autocannons+3 neuts/nos/remote reps. There are 2 ways to prevent this, 1 give it very low PG so it can only fit ac's comfortably or totally revise PG need of autocannons in general. Well CCP messed up in trying to do that because all the other Marauders CAN FIT both blaster/Rails Pulses/Beams Cruisers/Torps . So perhaps CCP should lower the PGs of the other ships ? I d say not because these ships cost and skill need deserve to be something better that your next door BS. All CCP has to do as things are now is raise considerably the PG of Vargur to be equal to the other ships. The other way is nerf the other ships to the levels of Vargur but i am against it for the reasons i described.
Blitz'Krieg Caldari SkyMarshal Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:46:00 - [40] with the amount of awsome mini ships in the game .. i'm glad :D

Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Shevar http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/39416/2004108668394296599_rs.jpg I would say it's at least better then the current tech1 minmatar ships for running missions, unless you can propose a rather significantly better mealstorm fitting? It is NOT better. Check the image again. There is great quality difference between the 2 set ups. The Malestorm will be able to start killing things from the moment it enters the complex because its artilleries range make it able too. Maelstorm's cap will last more than your screenshot shows on paper because it won't need to open AB to reach the enemies to kill. Also it will kill them faster cause its shots will shoot for more damage scoring criticals much more often because these enemies will be within optimal. Even if the cap starts to go down it can warp out and return. It will have kill in these 2 minutes some enemies so next time it returns it will be able to kill the rest. Vargur has cap only for 2 minutes in these 2 minutes it won't be able to reach the needed enemies to shot down. Even if it does the falloff will cost in effective damage and when if gets so close there won't be any cap left for tanking or even warping out. So your own screenshots say the exact opposite from what you try to say as long as you have the abiltity to see it. So the truth is not the numbers themselves. The truth is between the numbers.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:02:00 - [42] Edited by: Shevar on 23/12/2007 12:05:12 Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Originally by: Shevar The problem with the vargur is the PG requirement of autocannons in general. All marauders have to low PG to fit a full rack of high end weapons + 3 neuts/nos/remote reps. Not true. In fact all the other Marauders can fit full rack of high end weapons + 3 neuts/nos/remote reps. Forget the nos/neuts etc. Vargur can't even fit the full rack of high end weapons ALONE! Yes and I'm the fairy queen. In other words you don't know wtf you are talking about. Quote: Quote: CCP doesn't want marauders to be able of doing that, if the vargur gets enough PG to fit 4 1400's then it also has enough PG to fit 4 autocannons+3 neuts/nos/remote reps. There are 2 ways to prevent this, 1 give it very low PG so it can only fit ac's comfortably or totally revise PG need of autocannons in general. Well CCP messed up in trying to do that because all the other Marauders CAN FIT both blaster/Rails Pulses/Beams Cruisers/Torps . So perhaps CCP should lower the PGs of the other ships ? I d say not because these ships cost and skill need deserve to be something better that your next door BS. All CCP has to do as things are now is raise considerably the PG of Vargur to be equal to the other ships. The other way is nerf the other ships to the levels of Vargur but i am against it for the reasons i described. 425 rails and neutron blasters got comparable PG requirements, megabeams and megapulses got comparable PG. 1400's and 800's don't got comparable PG. So no lowering the other ships PG won't solve anything since then they can't even fit the high end long range OR short range weapons anymore. Currently the vargur can only not fit a full rack of the top end long range weapons the high end short range weapons aren't an issue to fit. But show me a mael fit that is better then the vargur fit I showed in my last post for mission running (most targets are ~20 to 50km away in missions). I won't even count the fact that you won't be able of salvaging/looting while fighting. //edit, replaced picture uploaded the wrong one :<. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Liisa Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:32:00 - [43] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Vargur unlike all the other marauders can't fit his guns. Not in full ship fiting with all slots filled. It can't fit its guns even if the guns would be the only thing mount on the ship! you know, you cant fit full rack of tachs, just the guns, on a geddon, apoc, or abaddon. in fact, you need 2x grid rigs for all 3. JUST the guns...nothing else. now you know our pain. Seeing the amount of paladins being used in my corp for missions.... no, we don't. Signature Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:51:00 - [44] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Originally by: Shevar http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/39416/2004108668394296599_rs.jpg I would say it's at least better then the current tech1 minmatar ships for running missions, unless you can propose a rather significantly better mealstorm fitting? It is NOT better. Check the image again. There is great quality difference between the 2 set ups. The Malestorm will be able to start killing things from the moment it enters the complex because its artilleries range make it able too. Maelstorm's cap will last more than your screenshot shows on paper because it won't need to open AB to reach the enemies to kill. Also it will kill them faster cause its shots will shoot for more damage scoring criticals much more often because these enemies will be within optimal. Even if the cap starts to go down it can warp out and return. It will have kill in these 2 minutes some enemies so next time it returns it will be able to kill the rest. If a target is in range you can hit a "wrecking" hit, I assume you mean wreckings by saying criticals? These aren't subject to range/fall off stuff. Quote: Vargur has cap only for 2 minutes in these 2 minutes it won't be able to reach the needed enemies to shot down. Even if it does the falloff will cost in effective damage and when if gets so close there won't be any cap left for tanking or even warping out. So your own screenshots say the exact opposite from what you try to say as long as you have the abiltity to see it. So the truth is not the numbers themselves. The truth is between the numbers. You don't need to perma run an xl booster+amp for tanking, specially when not all NPC's are are still more then 20 km away. I'm amarr and minmatar specced, when doing amarr missions I fly an abbadon and I cap out after less then 2 minutes using all modules at the same time (and that's a megapulse fit not even tachs), cycling a repper isn't an issue. Anyways isk/hour for a pilot flying a vargur will be higher then for a player flying a maelstrom when doing level4 missions. That being said I wouldn't use a marauder nor faction ship when sent into low sec. But that's something people using caldari navy ravens already learned. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Liisa Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:09:00 - [45] Originally by: Shevar If a target is in range you can hit a "wrecking" hit, I assume you mean wreckings by saying criticals? These aren't subject to range/fall off stuff. Nope, wrong. You have to hit first in order to get a wrecking hit. It used (a long damn time ago) to be that around every 100?th shot would be a wrecking, now it is every 100?th hit. So if you fight at optimal+falloff you will get half the wreckings. It seems that we have a high pressure stupid system concerning falloff hovering over the forums. When fighting at optimal+falloff you have a base 50% chance to hit. Meaning half your shots go wide. Half of autocannon damage is less than artillery damage. I fear that many people will read this and not understand this very simple fact and how it matters to the speed of running missions. Signature Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:17:00 - [46] Originally by: Liisa Originally by: Shevar If a target is in range you can hit a "wrecking" hit, I assume you mean wreckings by saying criticals? These aren't subject to range/fall off stuff. Nope, wrong. You have to hit first in order to get a wrecking hit. It used (a long damn time ago) to be that around every 100?th shot would be a wrecking, now it is every 100?th hit. So if you fight at optimal+falloff you will get half the wreckings. It seems that we have a high pressure stupid system concerning falloff hovering over the forums. When fighting at optimal+falloff you have a base 50% chance to hit. Meaning half your shots go wide. Half of autocannon damage is less than artillery damage. I fear that many people will read this and not understand this very simple fact and how it matters to the speed of running missions. QFT. Also note that most of the unwashed "ACs for missions" crowd will show you the falloff with Barrage L which is not useful for most of the NPC types. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:25:00 - [47] Originally by: Liisa Originally by: Shevar If a target is in range you can hit a "wrecking" hit, I assume you mean wreckings by saying criticals? These aren't subject to range/fall off stuff. Nope, wrong. You have to hit first in order to get a wrecking hit. It used (a long damn time ago) to be that around every 100?th shot would be a wrecking, now it is every 100?th hit. So if you fight at optimal+falloff you will get half the wreckings. It seems that we have a high pressure stupid system concerning falloff hovering over the forums. When fighting at optimal+falloff you have a base 50% chance to hit. Meaning half your shots go wide. Half of autocannon damage is less than artillery damage. I fear that many people will read this and not understand this very simple fact and how it matters to the speed of running missions. Originally by: Liisa Originally by: Shevar If a target is in range you can hit a "wrecking" hit, I assume you mean wreckings by saying criticals? These aren't subject to range/fall off stuff. Nope, wrong. You have to hit first in order to get a wrecking hit. It used (a long damn time ago) to be that around every 100?th shot would be a wrecking, now it is every 100?th hit. So if you fight at optimal+falloff you will get half the wreckings. It seems that we have a high pressure stupid system concerning falloff hovering over the forums. When fighting at optimal+falloff you have a base 50% chance to hit. Meaning half your shots go wide. Half of autocannon damage is less than artillery damage. I fear that many people will read this and not understand this very simple fact and how it matters to the speed of running missions. Not entirely true, see http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g61_5.asp only at optimal+fall exactly you do half damage, if you are at optimal + 50% fall off you do 85% damage. Hmm yeah it seems the wrecking hits were changed during my absence ohwell; http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/Naughty654/hit02.png --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Lazuran QFT. Also note that most of the unwashed "ACs for missions" crowd will show you the falloff with Barrage L which is not useful for most of the NPC types. Euhm? It beats doing only em/thermal damage... --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Lazuran QFT. Also note that most of the unwashed "ACs for missions" crowd will show you the falloff with Barrage L which is not useful for most of the NPC types. Euhm? It beats doing only em/thermal damage... It doesn't beat EM/Thermal with much higher DPS. Projectile weapons have low DPS because you can choose the damage type to some extent. If you don't do that for NPCs with known resistances, you are wasting time/ammo. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Liisa Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:54:00 - [50] Originally by: Shevar Not entirely true, see http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g61_5.asp only at optimal+fall exactly you do half damage, if you are at optimal + 50% fall off you do 85% damage. Hmm yeah it seems the wrecking hits were changed during my absence ohwell; http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/Naughty654/hit02.png Umm... I said optimal+falloff. Because not all battleships close to around 18km range you know. And no, I will not use barrage L all the time. Shooting a ship with 80% explosive and 70% kinetic resistances and an orbit range of 40km with barrage goes beyond stupid. Not to mention that it is better to shoot at the resistance holes, increases your dps quite a bit and since this ship does not do more damage than a maelstrom, decreasing your dps just to be cool and use a tech 2 battleship is: stupid. Signature Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches

Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:58:00 - [51] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 23/12/2007 18:05:21 Originally by: Shevar Edited by: Shevar on 23/12/2007 12:05:12 Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Originally by: Shevar The problem with the vargur is the PG requirement of autocannons in general. All marauders have to low PG to fit a full rack of high end weapons + 3 neuts/nos/remote reps. Not true. In fact all the other Marauders can fit full rack of high end weapons + 3 neuts/nos/remote reps. Forget the nos/neuts etc. Vargur can't even fit the full rack of high end weapons ALONE! Yes and I'm the fairy queen. In other words you don't know wtf you are talking about. Its amazing how some people will try anything to obscure the plain truth. Are you unhappy that the other Marauders can't fit BOTH the high end weaponary AND the NOSes so to cover their full rack of high slots? In fact they can without screwing up much their fit and that was what i meant. The Vargur cant fit even its own weapons without the addition of the noses. Vargur can't cover its 4 turret slots with artilleries. I said that. I said FORGET the Noses. I said Vargur can't even fit its own guns. I don't know how to make it more obvious to you. I don't have a program to take screenshots. Just open the fitter and put 4 artileries in Vargur. It can't fit them not even with 1 RCII on the lows (it needs 2) . The other ships can fit their guns if the guns would be the only thing they would fit. Vargur can't fit the guns not even if the guns would be the only thing on the ship. I can't make it more obvious. Open the damn fitter and try to fit GUNS ONLY into the Vargur. Nothing else. YOU CAN'T! Try to do this with all the other ships. YOU CAN! So stop twisting my words to fit your case. Quote: 425 rails and neutron blasters got comparable PG requirements, megabeams and megapulses got comparable PG. 1400's and 800's don't got comparable PG. I really don't get what you mean by not comparable . The blasters=pulses=autocannons the Arties=Beams=Railguns. So since the other ships are able to fit their long range guns Vargur's should be able as well. I am not talking for full fit. I am talking about JUST THE GUNS. Vargur can;t fit just the guns. The others can fit just the guns. What you are trying to do is trying to pass an unfair thing as fair. Quote: So no lowering the other ships PG won't solve anything since then they can't even fit the high end long range OR short range weapons anymore. Currently the vargur can only not fit a full rack of the top end long range weapons the high end short range weapons aren't an issue to fit. You are kiddning right? Why Vargur shouldn't be able to fit the arts? Because you say so? Is the word UNFAIR saying anything to you? How would you feel if Kronos would be unable to use Railguns, Paladin unable to use Beams and Golem unable to use Cruiser Launchers? Well the same happens to Vargur as it is. Quote: But show me a mael fit that is better then the vargur fit I showed in my last post for mission running (most targets are ~20 to 50km away in missions). I won't even count the fact that you won't be able of salvaging/looting while fighting. A normal Maelstorm fiting with artilleries, 3 shield mission specific hardeners II one shield boost amp II on X-large shield booster II 1 tracking computer II and 3 Gyros to the lows along with 2 Cap Power relays will do better for 1/10 of the cost and skills needed. Not happy with the cap. Add some cap boosting rigs. And you don't need an AB with the Maelstorm at all. Also in your fitting screenshot you should calculate the cap consumption with the AB switched on. Cause you will have to have it switched on all the time since the NPCs will try to move away from you. In fact i doupt you will even arrive in fire range. Its stupid to try to salvage in such a slow ship as Vargur. A destroyer or a the gallente cruiser Execuor will do it easier.
Hornymatt	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:12:00 - [52] Hmmm, was thinking of trying out the Vargur as an alternative to my artyMach (for PvE), but from the varous threads I've read the new ship is no match if you want arties over autocannons? Seems like it's still going to be quicker mission running-wise to use the machariel and loot / salvage with a dedicated thrasher?
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 19:11:00 - [53] Originally by: Hornymatt Hmmm, was thinking of trying out the Vargur as an alternative to my artyMach (for PvE), but from the varous threads I've read the new ship is no match if you want arties over autocannons? it's certainly no match for Artillery, no ... Especially when you have 3 rig slots on the Mach an and need 1 of 2 for a PG rig on the Vargur. Quote: Seems like it's still going to be quicker mission running-wise to use the machariel and loot / salvage with a dedicated thrasher? Yes, although if you have the spare cash, the Vargur makes a good salvager. The fast tractor beams are the only thing I miss since I sold it. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Kiva Ki GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 21:28:00 - [54] If you're stuck in the rut of thinking you have to use Arty, don't get a Vargur. If you're too broke to properly fit an expensive ship, don't get a Vargur. In my experience, the Vargur is GREATLY superior to any other minmatar ship for PvE. That's experience, not eft theory and die hard "zomg fighting in falloff sucks, look at the stats!" theory. With equivilent fitting costs, my Vargur runs high end 0.0 complexes considerably faster than any previous Minmatar setup I've run. I have no non-minmatar skills so don't speak for the other factions as well, but I can fly every minmatar ship except old interdictors and titans. On a side note, if you think affording 4bil isk PvE setups is prohibitively expensive and requires "special" help, you need to re-examine your methods of isk gathering. I own no T2 bpos. I haven't mined a m3 in months. Not only do I not sell GTCs, I buy GTCs with my isk so that I can play eve for free. I devote no more than 1 day a week to industry, and only PvE during slow times. The rest of my time is spent in PvP. I'm still able to make between 3 and 5 billion isk a month, purely from my 1 day a week industry plus off-time PvE. I am not special or unique, there are MANY people with far better incomes than me. If you're not able to make more money, that's your problem.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:27:00 - [55] Originally by: Kiva Ki In my experience, the Vargur is GREATLY superior to any other minmatar ship for PvE. I am happy for you that the illusion is working for you. ;-) Actually I'll have to agree that PVE with looting and salvaging is faster than in any other Minmatar ship with the Vargur, but very few people do that on 1 account and it's definetely not true if you use ACs (which no serious PVEer does with such slow ships). Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Garozux Varonen	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:09:00 - [56] Originally by: Kiva Ki . I own no T2 bpos. I haven't mined a m3 in months. Not only do I not sell GTCs, I buy GTCs with my isk so that I can play eve for free. I devote no more than 1 day a week to industry, and only PvE during slow times. I'm still able to make between 3 and 5 billion isk a month, purely from my 1 day a week industry plus off-time PvE. Quote: And you run the farming bot when you are offline
Kiva Ki GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 07:50:00 - [57] Originally by: Lazuran if you use ACs (which no serious PVEer does with such slow ships). Was true until there was a BS with falloff bonus. The people making various wild and unsubstantiated claims about the inferiority of fighting with ACs in falloff know just enough about the game mechanics to sound intelligent, but not enough to actually get it right. For once, stop relying on the exhaustive studies that were performed years ago and extending them to new situations, and actually go do a new set of studies yourself. Unless the kind of PvE you do requires the majority of its DPS to be done at 60km or greater, an AC vargur will out perform an arty maelstrom, without even moving. Or don't. :P
Hornymatt	Posted - 2007.12.24 08:03:00 - [58] Originally by: Kiva Ki If you're stuck in the rut of thinking you have to use Arty, don't get a Vargur. If you're too broke to properly fit an expensive ship, don't get a Vargur. Simply a matter of choice, prefer to engage at range when ratting in 0.0 or even missioning in lowsec. AutoMach used to be fun but again I'll admit I started to bottle it when force recons became common I'll give one a try for hisec missioning to start with and see how it goes without those fancy implants that people seem to rely on. Using high slots for salvaging never made any sense on a ranged ship anyway For missioning in hisec it all comes down to what's the quickest form mission acceptance to salvaging that final wreck after all.
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.24 08:49:00 - [59] lol @ you whiners. Come on sisi and see what some of the slightly experienced vargur pilots can do! In the right hands they ARE a solo pwnmobile. The Golem IMHO is the only OP marauder. It's easier to kill carriers than a well tanked Golem :( They are one ship I would happily take on small gangs in 0.0 with. Crazy ship. I've pulled some incredible feats with Paladin on sisi mind you, 3 BS+ deimos and killed them all. Bot Paladin can't last anywhere near as long as Golem. Kronos I think is a harder balance to fit but also in the right hands it is amazing. PS Vargur is an AC boat, Golem is a Torp boat, Paladin is a megaplulse boat, Kronos is a blaster boat. None of them are anything spectacular at range. For the price you would use a T1 variant for sniping over any of the marauders. They come into their element at close range.
Hornymatt	Posted - 2007.12.24 08:58:00 - [60] Ok eLLioTT, you sold me. Once I've got a few out of the oven and sold I'll keep one for myself, may even try to get it to my favourite ratting system, if I can get it past a cetain gank point



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