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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.22 16:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Shadarle on 22/12/2007 16:13:16
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Lesson learned? The notion that scamming is SIN(tm) doesnt seem to be shared by the entire playerbase.
And, in my opinion, anyone not sharing that belief should be equally cut out of this community. Meaning you it seems. Note, I am not saying you have to have moral objections to scamming. You just have to believe scamming has no place in this community and anyone who does it or supports it should have zero standing.
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers I think it may be hard for you to accept that both scammers AND you provide valuable gameplay to eve, but well.
I can accept both are legal game play tactics, but that is different then saying people have to accept it. And if enough people refuse to accept it then it can be made illegal, at least within a certain community.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.22 16:46:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Shadarle on 22/12/2007 16:46:24
Originally by: Hersheff Edited by: Hersheff on 22/12/2007 16:44:25 I dont support scamming, and on the channels i always try to combat scammers(pretty fun too), but in a way all traders are scammers to a lesser degree, for the simple fact that we manipulate the market so it's in our favor, and make the regular players buy our items for more isk than it's worth.
how many times did one of us saw a bulk sale of items under the mineral worth ... did we send an mail to that guy to tell him he made a mistake? ... or just buy all the items?
You are not understanding the meaning of the word scam. You think ripping someone off or not paying someone 100% value for a good is scamming, it is not. Scamming has a definition, look it up.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.22 17:08:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Hersheff
Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 22/12/2007 16:46:24
Originally by: Hersheff Edited by: Hersheff on 22/12/2007 16:44:25 I dont support scamming, and on the channels i always try to combat scammers(pretty fun too), but in a way all traders are scammers to a lesser degree, for the simple fact that we manipulate the market so it's in our favor, and make the regular players buy our items for more isk than it's worth.
how many times did one of us saw a bulk sale of items under the mineral worth ... did we send an mail to that guy to tell him he made a mistake? ... or just buy all the items?
You are not understanding the meaning of the word scam. You think ripping someone off or not paying someone 100% value for a good is scamming, it is not. Scamming has a definition, look it up.
Scam
A contrived scheme or process designed to surreptitiously, deceitfully and materially benefit the perpetrator(s) at the expense of the victim(s).
To provide or sell goods or services, knowing them to be unfit for purpose, while implying or claiming fitness in order to elevate the monetary value and generate undeserved revenue.
To extract goods or services from a provider whilst using deceitful measures designed to deny the provider suitable recompense in return.
None of those definitions fit the situation you described, which is why I told you to get the definition in the first place. You've proven my point.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.22 17:43:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hersheff well the last entry does ... a bit...
Except it leaves out deceit... which is one of the key elements. You can't use the part of a definition you like the most.
The person is willfully placing an item on the market at a price they want to sell it for, if you buy it you are paying them what they wanted. If someone tells you they will pay out X amount and will not run away with the money and then they run away with it they are being deceitful. Big difference in the two.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.23 07:29:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Shadarle on 23/12/2007 07:29:46 I am sure I do not talk to any alts of yours in game Riethe, your typing style is very identifiable. In all the people I know and talk to, none are an alt of yours. Try and say whatever you want but you do not have an alt that talks to me a lot in game. Perhaps you talk to Ricdic on an alt, but not me. And considering how many times you've messaged me lately I think you'd have tried to trick me with an alt if you truly had one.
Maybe you do have other accounts, but you keep them very hidden. You may post on here with them, but in game you stay well away from anyone that could find you out with them.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.23 15:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Riethe Well it's just that I get all excited! And this thread brings it out!
Shad:
You're wrong!!
I absolutely am not wrong. You do not talk to me in game on any alt, only on Riethe. I am sure of this. I know you'll continue to say I'm wrong, but I am not. There happens to be other ways to know that I don't talk to your alts, so every time you say otherwise I know you're lying.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.23 16:49:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Shadarle on 23/12/2007 16:50:07 Edited by: Shadarle on 23/12/2007 16:49:20
Originally by: Draaken
Originally by: Mr Horizontal 2) Riethe is nothing. When I try and attract people to MD either to buy IPOs or just deposit in EBANK, they all mention EIB. EIB was the scam that made everyone else in EVE really scared, and for this reason it's Cally that still rules the roost of all scammers.
Although EIB was by far the most successful scam in terms of ISK, even today with the large influx of newer players I would think that Istvaan Shogaatsu (spelling?) is the most renowned/notorious scammer.
...and in case you missed it, Istvaan apparently returned to EVE, so keep an eye out, I'm sure the Guiding Hands are scheming already.
Considering I have never heard of Istvaan I hardly consider it at the level of EIB. I heard about EIB on Digg! A world news compilation site, thats how big it was. That was before I was too active on these forums.
I can tell you that most of the stuff we discuss here is unknown to the majority of the player base. I bet a lot haven't even heard of EIB, maybe even half of the player base if not more.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.24 02:56:00 -
[8]
Riethe, I am surprised you haven't understood this yet. No one believe you. You make claims that are blatantly lies yet expect people to believe other things you say.
You claim you talk to me on another character, but you do not. I am certain of this. You may not believe I could possibly be certain, but I am. I have a definite way of knowing that I talk to no other character of yours. Every time you claim otherwise it further proves you are just making stuff up to try to gain attention. On top of that, it would be impossible for you to prove otherwise, even if I promised not to give away your name. Which I do promise. I am 100% certain you do not talk to me on other characters and if I am wrong I will keep your secret no matter what scam you try to pull, that is how certain I am.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.24 04:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Riethe Shaddy: Me and you are arguing about two separate things it seems. I have though, 100% positive, spoken to you in game as someone that is not Riethe.
Uh huh. We both know it isn't true.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.24 19:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Riethe Point out another one of my names (And I'm posting on it here as well) and I'll reward your detective skills.
What kind of reward are we talking? Because I have 4 names currently and am trying to determine if there are any more.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.24 19:51:00 -
[11]
I definitely have a connection between 4 characters, one of them being Riethe. That's all I'll say for now.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.24 20:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Riethe I got a guess on your guess.
I'm Riethe I'm Ricdic I'm Hexxx and I'm Shadarle.
You can tell because all of them are spelled with the same letters.
mind blown.
Actually two of the other names are names no one here has ever heard of I would wager, the other some may know, but it is not a major name.
I am not joking in saying I have 4 names with a connection, one being yours. I am quite serious. If I thought your offer of 40+ billion if I revealed those names was in any way truthful I'd just disclose them now. But it is probably better for me to continue investigating for now.
I am actually quite disappointed so far. I was really hoping your alts were going to be impressive.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.25 04:46:00 -
[13]
If I ever started to get board with EVE I think I'd start paying mercenaries a few billion isk to kill anyone that scammed. I'd go beyond that though and also hire them to kill anyone that vouched for that scammer. If I got REALLY bored I'd go so far as to pay the alliance the person or people were in to kill him and take all of his stuff they had access to.
This would be one way of enforcing the standards I believed in. I wouldn't have to do it much, after a few times people would stop being able to get vouched for by anyone in a corp/alliance as it would bring down the wrath of billions of isk upon them and their corp/alliance.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.25 14:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Riethe Shadarle, how much ISK do you actually have? I don't think you're nearly as rich as you make it seem.
I find it interesting that most people think the only money I have is from RHCRP (meaning I would only have ~40 billion ISK)
It's as if people are only capable of considering one factor of something that is much larger than it may visibly seem.
Tell me about your exceptionally large wallet. (which may or may not be about to get much larger based on your incredible detective skills)
It's far more fun to let people guess.
I find it quite interesting how quickly your tone has changed in regards to me now that I've discovered several characters that are linkable to yours.
Originally by: Robacz Heh, I bet they are all scared to death now.
I would hope not, I am not getting bored so I am not about to start instituting that plan. They don't have to get scared quite yet.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.25 20:41:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Shadarle on 25/12/2007 20:41:32
Originally by: Riethe (I would say that RHCRP was worth more than you Shadarle, that's my guess. Don't get offended!!!)
It doesn't offend me at all. You're partially right though. I don't quite have RHCRP's level of money sitting idle in my wallet this very second, I'm a little short. So in that regard you'd be correct. As to the money I have tied up in goods/services... I'd rather you thought I had none then to know what I really have.
BTW, who here knows a chap by the name of Grismar... do you Riethe?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.26 17:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Riethe
Originally by: Shadarle BTW, who here knows a chap by the name of Grismar... do you Riethe?
Are you implying that there are people who don't know who Grismar is?
It's the third link on Battle Clinic's "Sites We Like", and his tools and information are quite useful.
Link for those who have never seen his site: http://eve.grismar.net/
Well, the question was more for others in this thread. I barely knew the name myself, though I am not surprised you know the name quite well Riethe
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.27 01:23:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Shadarle on 27/12/2007 01:24:40
Originally by: Riethe
Originally by: Shadarle Well, the question was more for others in this thread. I barely knew the name myself, though I am not surprised you know the name quite well Riethe
You seem to be insinuating something here, and I would be really careful with what you say.
I know the name "Ricdic" pretty well, too, simply because I've been able to follow his activity during my participation here. I don't see how that implies anything, though. I'm not automatically Ricdic.
Like I said, if you truly figure it out, I will reward you substantially.
It would be quite a feat.
Just out of curiosity, what detective work did you use to come to such an inaccurate conclusion?
There is absolutely no way you will admit anything. You are simply saying you will to try and make people believe you when you say "Nope, you're wrong".
Your name is mud, and trying to use tricks to get around that won't work.
I am absolutely not going to tell you how I get my information. Period.
And believe me, your knowledge of who someone is has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.27 01:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Riethe I'm just saying, the guy (Grismar) is VERY well established. Attempting to tarnish someone's name without any substantial evidence is rather messed up.
I am glad we agree that anyone associated with you would become very tarnished.
Originally by: Riethe
Targeting an individual or making such ridiculous statements regarding them, bearing no proof at all, is libel.
Sue me. No, really, if you think it is libel then sue me. You won't because you can't because this isn't libel in any court.
Finally, I have made no claims. I merely asked if you knew Grismar. Simple question. You are getting quite worked up though and quite defensive.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.27 02:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Treelox at this point in the thread, might i suggest that you two get a room....
I tried, he doesn't put out.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.27 02:45:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Shadarle on 27/12/2007 02:45:11 If, indeed, I was insinuating you being an alt of Grismar and this was not true, what would the logical response be?
If you are not Grismar, you would have no real reason to claim I was wrong. It would be to your benefit for people to think you were Grismar as it would keep them off the track of your real main. Plus it would be added fun for you to see people fighting over it and making a ruckus about it. In a way it would be a new scam for you to play up and would make future scams easier to pull off, thus it would benefit you to enhance an incorrect association.
If you are Grismar, you would be quite upset and would be very defensive. But you wouldn't want to admit it, so you would have to find some way to attack me without letting on that you are Grismar. Claiming I was unfairly labeling Grismar as your alt seems like a very good method. Showing outrage that I would link Grismar to a lowdown scammer fits quite well.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.28 00:37:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Shadarle on 28/12/2007 00:37:45 Actually, I do in fact know with 100% certainty that anyone I talk to on any sort of regular basis is not an alt of Riethe. You can wonder how I know this, but I assure you it is not a guess.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.28 17:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Riethe Edited by: Riethe on 28/12/2007 13:45:02 I plan on spending a bunch of effort shipping off an email regarding the method you're employing to capture IPs.
We'll see how that goes.
I love it. Nothing better than watching a scammer cry about someone else playing unfair. Except perhaps when they have no clue what they are even talking about.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.28 18:19:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Shadarle on 28/12/2007 18:22:34 Edited by: Shadarle on 28/12/2007 18:20:18
Originally by: Riethe See that trace route a few posts up? See the final address? That's me.
Actually, it's almost assuredly not. Unless you have a static address there is no way for you to prove that IP is yours. The last digits could have been changed by Hexxx and the positional trace would have worked identically. I assume he was smart enough to change the IP slightly so as to be posting a random person's IP. If so he didn't post any of your real life info that you didn't give away yourself, as you already told everyone you lived in Cali and 100 miles from LA.
Even if he didn't change the IP address at all though, that IP does not belong to you. Someone having that IP cannot find you. Someone else is using that IP right now, not you, in all likelihood.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.28 18:30:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon This thread undermines everyones credability
No, it points out that everyone can be a scammer and that everyone should be careful. The regulars here fully want everyone to realize how risky investments are. The problem lately is that people forget this and invest willy nilly.
The very problems you speak of are exactly what we want everyone to think about. We want investing to be a very well thought out decision, not something everyone does randomly without much thought and research.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.28 20:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon Well, then again I guess I just made your point for you. LMAO!!!
Indeed
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.30 05:05:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Grismar I decided to actually read the rest of the thread and would like to add my 2 cents.
Frankly, I think Riethe is right in claiming that he's just playing the game. The fact that some people strongly object to the way he's playing it doesn't seem to faze CCP. So, at the very least he's sticking to the rules that connect the world of EVE to our world. (I'd say that in character, he is actually a criminal; but CONCORD can't be bothered to fix crime, since they're too busy pwning noob pilots that accidentally open fire on innocent bystanders)
But even if you do feel what Riethe has apparently been up to is wrong, he's actually doing the game a service. He's laying bare one of the major weaknesses of the game as it stands. EVE players have little or no way to enforce any kind of law they feel is needed. The cause of this isn't immoral behavior of characters, it's the safe haven for crime that is Empire.
It's bad enough that people can hide in stations, 100% safe. But flying around Empire, characters like Riethe can do whatever they like, even though everybody and their dog know what he's been up to. CONCORD, customs, the navy and every other NPC has no way of knowing every PC thinks this is a criminal. And any PC that feels like acting on this thought is instantly bombarded into a pod.
And to top it off: if you happen to disagree with CONCORD, CCP has rigged the game to the point where fighting CONCORD or running from them is considered a crime both ingame and out, constituting cheating. I don't know what you make of that, but I feel we're short-changed.
Ofcourse, better means for enforcing any type of law would still allow players to scam and then just delete their characters, it does nothing to solve the problem of anonimity. But that's not really what this thread has been about, imo.
Greetings, Grismar.
I think you may have misinterpreted some of the feelings in this thread.
I don't think many people here feel that what Riethe did should be illegal or outlawed by CCP.
He may be a bit surprised if he expects that people will change their opinion of him sometime in the future. He may also be surprised that someone catches him when he launches his new plan. Especially since a few people know more about him and his alts than he realizes. Loose lips sink ships.
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