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Modesty Blaise
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Posted - 2007.12.25 11:06:00 -
[1]
Yesterday me and my alt were harassing the Macro miner group of ffrerrgtgkt names. I tried to flip cans but I didnt get it to work basically cus I dont really get it. However I bookmarked the cans and let my hauler warp on top of them. Got 1 and 1/2 Itty full of Ice.
So please tell me the details of how flipping cans work and the tactics evolved around it.
Best Regards
Modesty Blaise
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Naridos
Caldari
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.12.25 11:49:00 -
[2]
You steal from their cans, you are now aggro'ed to them and they can shoot at you if they like. If they shoot at you, you are allowed to fire back making it possible to pop them. If they dont shoot at you, you still get free stuff. Did I lose you anywhere?
 Quote:
Pandas are the PWN of Eve. Pandas!
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Jean Douvoir
Gallente
Deviously Cunning and Sly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.25 11:50:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Naridos
You steal from their cans, you are now aggro'ed to them and they can shoot at you if they like. If they shoot at you, you are allowed to fire back making it possible to pop them. If they dont shoot at you, you still get free stuff. Did I lose you anywhere?
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I think I lost my Yarrbles. |
techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.12.25 15:42:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Naridos
You steal from their cans, you are now aggro'ed to them and they can shoot at you if they like. If they shoot at you, you are allowed to fire back making it possible to pop them. If they dont shoot at you, you still get free stuff. Did I lose you anywhere?
Perfect!
____________________
Hi. I'm not an alt :) |
6Bagheera9
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.12.25 17:04:00 -
[5]
The way it works is you drop your own can with a BM or a single unit of ammo in it or something. Then you take everything from their can and directly move into yours. You're now flagged to them and they will have to flag themselves to you if they want to get their ore back. I also take the precaution of then removing what I originally put in my can in hopes that they won't notice the switch.
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Wind Ictiva
Delta Kappa Gamma
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Posted - 2007.12.26 02:02:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Wind Ictiva on 26/12/2007 02:03:40
Originally by: 6Bagheera9
The way it works is you drop your own can with a BM or a single unit of ammo in it or something. Then you take everything from their can and directly move into yours. You're now flagged to them and they will have to flag themselves to you if they want to get their ore back. I also take the precaution of then removing what I originally put in my can in hopes that they won't notice the switch.
/signed
if they¦re macros (computer programs) they¦ll take your can and then you¦ll be able to shoot them (that or i¦ve run into some really dumb pilots who wont smack:)
Originally by: Admiral Love
Hmm creating a thread like this is perhaps a little like sitting naked with bleeding balls in a pool of piranhas. I Won't do it again - most of you guys are pretty nasty. |
dark5572
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.12.26 03:19:00 -
[7]
You take a few pieces of ore. You come up to their can and eject one of those pieces creating your own can. You take their ore and put it into your can. You are now flagged to them, but being macroes they are unlikely to start shooting at you. Many macroes are experienced with this technique and won't do anything. Very few send in their protection - typically a battlecruiser or battleship with terrible fitting armed with an ECM burst module so if things go bad it can escape.
However most of them are not going to go for you or the can. The way to get them here is greed. If you are persistent and take a lot of ore and flip it eventually they will try to retrieve it from the flipped cans. Once they do they become flagged to you and you can shoot them. This takes time however and a lot of stolen ore. You may want to leave system and come back in 10 minutes, go afk for a long period of time, or keep on pestering them and eventually they give in.
There's an overview setting that lets you see from local chat channel who is flagged to you. Makes it way easier to hunt for miners who have flipped your can back because you see it immediately as icon next to their name in local chat. You can leave system, jump back in and right away see who has taken anything of yours.
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6Bagheera9
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.12.26 06:48:00 -
[8]
On a final note I'd like to add that stealth bombers are exceptionally well suited to flipping the cans of macrominers (or legitimate ones)as you can easily decloak, flip, cloak, and then wait for the inevitable fireworks.
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Masari Ruk
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Posted - 2007.12.26 11:54:00 -
[9]
Having had a fair few cans flipped on my miner while jetcanning its a pretty simple thing to do.
1) Just jump in on the can with a hauler and take as much as you can hold.
In my experience this is the more acceptable for of can flipping as you are taking advantage of someone elses risk taking. Just be careful that they don't have a friend waiting to kill you.
2) Jump in with a combat ship and empty the contents of their can either into a can of your own with something in or take some ore and jetisson it and then move the rest across. Then its a matter of waiting for them to take the ore back so you cna shoot the miner. If the miner doesn't do anything then most flippers will just blow up the can and move on.
This particular type of can flipping is mainly practiced by people on trial accounts in high sec where they are unlikely to face retaliation from their victims or their victims friends. There are some that will use more powerful ships in 0.5 space but they aren't so common outside Ice belts. Most miners with an ounce of common sense will simply set the standing of yourself and your corp to minimum and that way by simply checking local they'll know you or others like you are there and will stop jetcanning.
Its the pirates life for me! Yarrr! |
Al Fard
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Posted - 2007.12.26 19:39:00 -
[10]
I understand how it works, but being a new player that never really mined ( not interested  ) why would someone mine into a 'can' ? It seems like a dangerous idea, what are the advantages? Why cant they simply mine into cargohold... it seems to me this would be much safer!
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Xiarem
Amarr
The Ghost Works
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Posted - 2007.12.26 20:16:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Xiarem on 26/12/2007 20:25:06
Edited by: Xiarem on 26/12/2007 20:23:07
Originally by: Al Fard
I understand how it works, but being a new player that never really mined ( not interested ) why would someone mine into a 'can' ? It seems like a dangerous idea, what are the advantages? Why cant they simply mine into cargohold... it seems to me this would be much safer!
Its very simple really...
Example
Lets just say you're in a retriever. That ship has a 2kM3 hold which with cargo expander II's can be increased up to something like 3.7kM3. Each 3 minutes cycle pulls 1.7M3 of ore. The journey from the asteroid belt to your station and back takes three minutes. Bear in mind a jetcan hold 27kM3.
If you are hauling in that situation you will manage about two pulls in 6 minutes befoe you need to drop the ore off at the station and return to the belt which takes another 3 minutes. Thats a total of 9 minutes during which only 2/3 of it was spent mining.
If you jetcan you can stay in the asteroid belt for a much longer time filling it up to however much you hauler can carry (Which is 22.5k M3 in my case) before returning to the station and returning with the hauler and emptying the can. In that case you've probably mined solidely for 45 minutes and only spent 3 minutes travelling. In that case you've spend 14/15 of your time mining.
Essentially its far more efficient to mine into a jetcan then come back with a hauler (Mine holds 22.5kM3) than it is to go back and forth every time you get a full hold. Obviously the greater the time it takes to travel back and forth to the station the less efficient hauling with a full hold in your mining ship becomes.
Players mine into jetcans because if you actually want to make a decent amount of money out of mining that is the most efficient way to do so. Getting another player to haul for you means splitting the profits which makes it completely unprofitable which means you other option is to have a second account and run them at the same time with one hauling and the other mining.
Alternatively you can do what I did and just find a high-sec system in the middle of nowhere where I can jetcan in peace and quiet.
.
"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!" |
Sin Fae
Income Redistribution Service
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.12.26 20:34:00 -
[12]
Just to give you an idea on the volume that can be achieved in jet-can mining, your typical macro ice miners (6-8 macks) mine 24 ice every ~4 minutes into a jetcan. At the end of that 4 mins, you can haul away that entire cycle and be back for the next one.
Thats ~288 ice per hour or about 37 mil isk per hour, for one group and there are typically 3 per ice belt.
Ice is really where its at for making good isk "can flipping, " since most do not macro normal ore anymore. (there are a few but nothing like the 'ole days).
In addition, the Hulk, which has no ice mining bonus, has about a half-a can cargo (with expanders), so that's why you rarely see hulks jet-canning in empire nowadays.
Of course there are exceptions.
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Al Fard
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Posted - 2007.12.27 04:22:00 -
[13]
Thanks for explaining 
One last question! What in the case of 'password protected' containers? I seen a miner today with one of those near him. Is there something to do with that?
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sov68n
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.27 05:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Al Fard
Thanks for explaining
One last question! What in the case of 'password protected' containers? I seen a miner today with one of those near him. Is there something to do with that?
no, they're password protected, to prevent flipping.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.12.27 05:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Masari Ruk
2) Jump in with a combat ship and empty the contents of their can either into a can of your own with something in or take some ore and jetisson it and then move the rest across. Then its a matter of waiting for them to take the ore back so you cna shoot the miner. If the miner doesn't do anything then most flippers will just blow up the can and move on.
This particular type of can flipping is mainly practiced by people on trial accounts in high sec where they are unlikely to face retaliation from their victims or their victims friends. There are some that will use more powerful ships in 0.5 space but they aren't so common outside Ice belts. Most miners with an ounce of common sense will simply set the standing of yourself and your corp to minimum and that way by simply checking local they'll know you or others like you are there and will stop jetcanning.
Mainly practiced on trial accounts? Never seen it done by them... lol and that is how I always did it.
Well... I guess the battlebadger came out a few times 
____________________
Hi. I'm not an alt :) |
Master Hu
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Posted - 2007.12.27 05:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: dark5572
There's an overview setting that lets you see from local chat channel who is flagged to you. Makes it way easier to hunt for miners who have flipped your can back because you see it immediately as icon next to their name in local chat. You can leave system, jump back in and right away see who has taken anything of yours.
Can you explain this? I looked but can't see anything in the overview setting. Thanks
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Naridos
Caldari
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.12.27 11:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Master Hu
Originally by: dark5572
There's an overview setting that lets you see from local chat channel who is flagged to you. Makes it way easier to hunt for miners who have flipped your can back because you see it immediately as icon next to their name in local chat. You can leave system, jump back in and right away see who has taken anything of yours.
Can you explain this? I looked but can't see anything in the overview setting. Thanks
Yeah if you could please explain this as well that would be wonderful. I am not aware of this. Is it new with the Trin patch?
Quote:
Pandas are the PWN of Eve. Pandas!
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Xiarem
Amarr
The Ghost Works
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Posted - 2007.12.27 14:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: Masari Ruk
2) Jump in with a combat ship and empty the contents of their can either into a can of your own with something in or take some ore and jetisson it and then move the rest across. Then its a matter of waiting for them to take the ore back so you cna shoot the miner. If the miner doesn't do anything then most flippers will just blow up the can and move on.
This particular type of can flipping is mainly practiced by people on trial accounts in high sec where they are unlikely to face retaliation from their victims or their victims friends. There are some that will use more powerful ships in 0.5 space but they aren't so common outside Ice belts. Most miners with an ounce of common sense will simply set the standing of yourself and your corp to minimum and that way by simply checking local they'll know you or others like you are there and will stop jetcanning.
Mainly practiced on trial accounts? Never seen it done by them... lol and that is how I always did it.
Well... I guess the battlebadger came out a few times
In the system I first started mining in there ended up being about 7-8 flippers around at any time of which the majority were less than 14 days old in rifters. One was in a badger and the last was in a something above a cruiser.
To them it doesn't matter if they lose a ship because its just a trial account and just a cheap crappy ship with cheap modules. For the miner who has actually paid for his account it can be very annoying and forces them to haul with a full hold which cuts down their profits considerably.
Anoying but thats just the way the game is and I doubt it will ever change in future. Also why I've started another account for combat and just train up skills on my mining character while its docked.
.
"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!" |
Adrianna Jones
Gallente
Universal System Acquisitions
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Posted - 2007.12.27 15:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Masari Ruk
Having had a fair few cans flipped on my miner while jetcanning its a pretty simple thing to do.
1) Just jump in on the can with a hauler and take as much as you can hold.
In my experience this is the more acceptable for of can flipping as you are taking advantage of someone elses risk taking. Just be careful that they don't have a friend waiting to kill you.
2) Jump in with a combat ship and empty the contents of their can either into a can of your own with something in or take some ore and jetisson it and then move the rest across. Then its a matter of waiting for them to take the ore back so you cna shoot the miner. If the miner doesn't do anything then most flippers will just blow up the can and move on.
This particular type of can flipping is mainly practiced by people on trial accounts in high sec where they are unlikely to face retaliation from their victims or their victims friends. There are some that will use more powerful ships in 0.5 space but they aren't so common outside Ice belts. Most miners with an ounce of common sense will simply set the standing of yourself and your corp to minimum and that way by simply checking local they'll know you or others like you are there and will stop jetcanning.
So its gang aggro or is it personal aggro how does that work? I always want to take those "take me" can outside stations but some times 3-4 ships sit outside waiting if its 1-2 its not a problem lol.
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Xiarem
Amarr
The Ghost Works
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Posted - 2007.12.27 15:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Adrianna Jones
Originally by: Masari Ruk
Having had a fair few cans flipped on my miner while jetcanning its a pretty simple thing to do.
1) Just jump in on the can with a hauler and take as much as you can hold.
In my experience this is the more acceptable for of can flipping as you are taking advantage of someone elses risk taking. Just be careful that they don't have a friend waiting to kill you.
2) Jump in with a combat ship and empty the contents of their can either into a can of your own with something in or take some ore and jetisson it and then move the rest across. Then its a matter of waiting for them to take the ore back so you cna shoot the miner. If the miner doesn't do anything then most flippers will just blow up the can and move on.
This particular type of can flipping is mainly practiced by people on trial accounts in high sec where they are unlikely to face retaliation from their victims or their victims friends. There are some that will use more powerful ships in 0.5 space but they aren't so common outside Ice belts. Most miners with an ounce of common sense will simply set the standing of yourself and your corp to minimum and that way by simply checking local they'll know you or others like you are there and will stop jetcanning.
So its gang aggro or is it personal aggro how does that work? I always want to take those "take me" can outside stations but some times 3-4 ships sit outside waiting if its 1-2 its not a problem lol.
By my understanding if someone flips your can then anyone in your corp/alliance gets kill rights on flipper for 15 minutes and I assume this also extends to anyone in your gang. I've thought about doing some jetcan mining on my mining account with my combat account sitting in system ready to pounce when the baits taken but I can't be arsed with the hassle and have better things to be doing.
There is always the chance that a can flipper is ganged with a friend who's stealthed up waiting to see who will come to help. Since the flipper is likely a trial account they will most likely be in the NPC corp and so it would be difficult to identify their friends.
.
"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!" |
Xiarem
Amarr
The Ghost Works
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Posted - 2007.12.27 15:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Adrianna Jones
Originally by: Masari Ruk
Having had a fair few cans flipped on my miner while jetcanning its a pretty simple thing to do.
1) Just jump in on the can with a hauler and take as much as you can hold.
In my experience this is the more acceptable for of can flipping as you are taking advantage of someone elses risk taking. Just be careful that they don't have a friend waiting to kill you.
2) Jump in with a combat ship and empty the contents of their can either into a can of your own with something in or take some ore and jetisson it and then move the rest across. Then its a matter of waiting for them to take the ore back so you cna shoot the miner. If the miner doesn't do anything then most flippers will just blow up the can and move on.
This particular type of can flipping is mainly practiced by people on trial accounts in high sec where they are unlikely to face retaliation from their victims or their victims friends. There are some that will use more powerful ships in 0.5 space but they aren't so common outside Ice belts. Most miners with an ounce of common sense will simply set the standing of yourself and your corp to minimum and that way by simply checking local they'll know you or others like you are there and will stop jetcanning.
So its gang aggro or is it personal aggro how does that work? I always want to take those "take me" can outside stations but some times 3-4 ships sit outside waiting if its 1-2 its not a problem lol.
By my understanding if someone flips your can then anyone in your corp/alliance gets kill rights on flipper for 15 minutes and I assume this also extends to anyone in your gang. I've thought about doing some jetcan mining on my mining account with my combat account sitting in system ready to pounce when the baits taken but I can't be arsed with the hassle and have better things to be doing.
There is always the chance that a can flipper is ganged with a friend who's stealthed up waiting to see who will come to help. Since the flipper is likely a trial account they will most likely be in the NPC corp and so it would be difficult to identify their friends.
.
"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!" |
Infomad
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Posted - 2007.12.28 02:49:00 -
[22]
I don't get it. You are trying to get macros to shoot you? How would they be macro miners if they are actually there mining and able to get mad and shoot you? duh. So really you are just harrassing real miners and justifying it by calling them macro miners.
Topics like this make me think that some of you haven't a clue what a macro miner even is?
If they are macro miners just steal it and be done with it. The macro program won't know to attack you. Hell, camp them and take it for hours. lol
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Sin Fae
Income Redistribution Service
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.12.28 03:18:00 -
[23]
Just to clarify, being ganged but in different corps or in npc corps does not give you retalatory right to attack from your gang-mates can.
If you are in the same corp as the one who got flipped, he will be red flashy to you, if you are in the same system when the flipping occurred.
The bottom line is if he is red flashy to you, fire away if you want.
If you are the flipper be aware that your flip-ee will not be red flashy unless he actually engages you. So be aware if you are the flipper and a bunch of his corp-mates show up in ravens and ceptors... heh... I'd warp somewhere quickly, (or steal more ore if you are a good thief).
As for macrominers - that term is blurred somewhat nowadays, I think when people say macrominers now they are referring to professional game players who use automation software to farm isk. As it relates to mining, there is usually one live player controlling 6-8 accounts, with the live player as the hauler. The miners are on a macro/key emulator.
Every once a while the live macro-player may get out a poorly fitted BC or BS and try to attack you.
Tactics? The OP has it basically correct. Next step is to figure out how to flip ALL cans in a belt every 4-5 minutes, with a window of 1 second each with a ity5 sitting on top of the can resulting in a successful flip (24 ice) each flip. It can be done :o)
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