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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
14
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Posted - 2012.03.02 23:55:00 -
[571] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Courthouse wrote:The fact is that FW has a current capture mechanic for star systems. The current mechanic is disliked, that's cool. I suggest you take a deep breath, calm down, and reread just about everything I've had to say on the topic of Faction Warfare. Including all my audio interviews. If you've gotten this far and you think we've all been "disliking the current mechanic" you haven't been paying attention at all. Crazy Goon is Crazy. Honestly, Mr. Courthouse, you have consistently demonstrated that you have no idea what FW players ACTUALLY want, you just complain about how Hans is jeopardizing his campaign by not tailoring his ideas to the Nullsec bloc. Which is ridiculous. He isn't a Nullsec bloc candidate, if you haven't noticed. You cry out "I'm just trying to help you Hans!" but your "help" is a) not helpful and b) unwanted. Thanks.
This is pretty much what I agree to as well. But thank you Courthouse for posting with your main and at least having some coherence with your posts. Although like said above, your attempt at help is a tiny bit misguided. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
114
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Posted - 2012.03.03 01:16:00 -
[572] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Honestly, Mr. Courthouse, you have consistently demonstrated that you have no idea what FW players ACTUALLY want, you just complain about how Hans is jeopardizing his campaign by not tailoring his ideas to the Nullsec bloc. Which is ridiculous. He isn't a Nullsec bloc candidate, if you haven't noticed. You cry out "I'm just trying to help you Hans!" but your "help" is a) not helpful and b) unwanted.
No, I followed what you guys were talking about, but let's be honest, you guys are idiots. if you guys had a working idea between the 30 of you you'd have managed to be 1) successful at rallying support well before this point 2) a working relationship with the CSM 3) jobs as developers.
The point here is to increase the cooperation towards a workable goal, not let you all get carried away jerking each other off because you've got a popular candidate. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
128
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Posted - 2012.03.03 01:40:00 -
[573] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:Honestly, Mr. Courthouse, you have consistently demonstrated that you have no idea what FW players ACTUALLY want, you just complain about how Hans is jeopardizing his campaign by not tailoring his ideas to the Nullsec bloc. Which is ridiculous. He isn't a Nullsec bloc candidate, if you haven't noticed. You cry out "I'm just trying to help you Hans!" but your "help" is a) not helpful and b) unwanted. No, I followed what you guys were talking about, but let's be honest, you guys are idiots. if you guys had a working idea between the 30 of you you'd have managed to be 1) successful at rallying support well before this point 2) a working relationship with the CSM 3) jobs as developers. The point here is to increase the cooperation towards a workable goal, not let you all get carried away jerking each other off because you've got a popular candidate.
bro, i think you mad. Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7 |
Killstealing
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
456
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 01:59:00 -
[574] - Quote
hans needs to be in. Faction warfare has potential to be a big addition to the newbie and vet pvp experience. And well, as a former autoz member, that's really all they do so yeah. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
128
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Posted - 2012.03.03 02:09:00 -
[575] - Quote
Killstealing wrote:hans needs to be in. Faction warfare has potential to be a big addition to the newbie and vet pvp experience. And well, as a former autoz member, that's really all they do so yeah.
<3 Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7 |
Dread Red
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.03.03 02:40:00 -
[576] - Quote
Hans is getting my vote. I want someone who is ready from day one to speak for the greater good of all players. I'll be making sure many many highsec players vote also, and vote only for Hans Jagerblitzen! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
296
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 03:23:00 -
[577] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Faction Warfare is just that - warfare. It's not about empire building, resource managment, logistics chains, or even a sense of permanency. If you read the lore, the militias are a legally *tolerated* defense group, born out of emergency need and are not the military themselves. We are essentially the xenophobic and patriotic crazies hanging out on the borderlands anxious for anything we can justify shooting without actually breaking the law. As actvitiy has dwindled over the years, we nowadays hardly even care about the law anymore.
Faction Warfare occupancy mechanics should revolve around fleet combat victories, not structure shoots. This isn't about what the null community has been asking for since Dominion, its about what the low sec community has been asking for since Empyrean Age. If null residents want occupancy to include revolve around structures, dreadnoughts, and POS shoots, GREAT!! I'm happy to support those changes as long as they apply to 0.0. Forcing null mechanics on a crowd that doesnt appreciate them is not only illogical, its dangerous in terms of customer retention. I'd hate to see another mini-Incarna rage summer because CCP didn't listen to the thousands of players enlisted in Faction Warfare. Look, you need to put 5 minutes of preparation into these tirades of yours before you launch off on a tear and tell me what's up. My warning is because I want the level-headed Hans on the CSM, not the irrational circlejerk cult of personality that you're becoming. Think about it for a moment: Ship battle victories = FW capture mechanic: Okay, GSF will go join Caldari militia and rampage through all other lowsec systems in odd hours raping anything with a signature radius and then coordinate the caldari militia to not be in lowsec for the next 20 hours, boom, caldari militia wins.
You guys won't do that. Who would tend all your carebear fields? But if you did then you would get a medal - Yay! - and you would then move on. The war would then continue.
If you stuck around long then ccp could use one of several different ways to address large imbalances in the militia forces. This could include allowing one side to bring larger ships in the smaller plexes or several other ideas.
People have thought about faction war and how it could work. Your thoughts on faction war are in their infancy. I encourage you to learn about it. Perhaps allot of you goons will realize its a great part of the game and start playing it.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
297
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 03:37:00 -
[578] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:Honestly, Mr. Courthouse, you have consistently demonstrated that you have no idea what FW players ACTUALLY want, you just complain about how Hans is jeopardizing his campaign by not tailoring his ideas to the Nullsec bloc. Which is ridiculous. He isn't a Nullsec bloc candidate, if you haven't noticed. You cry out "I'm just trying to help you Hans!" but your "help" is a) not helpful and b) unwanted. No, I followed what you guys were talking about, but let's be honest, you guys are idiots. if you guys had a working idea between the 30 of you you'd have managed to be 1) successful at rallying support well before this point 2) a working relationship with the CSM 3) jobs as developers. The point here is to increase the cooperation towards a workable goal, not let you all get carried away jerking each other off because you've got a popular candidate.
The goal is to improve low sec and empire in general. That goal will be achievable if we elect hans. So, yes, lets work together and vote for him.
Now that you guys have had mittens in csm I'm sure you are all now happy with null sec right? I mean you keep saying he was super effective.
Null sec is definitely not of interest to me. It seems pretty boring and uneventful in null sec from what I am reading. But if you guys think he did such a great job wielding all his influence then I can only assume you are happy. Help us get someone who can help our part of the game. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dread Red
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 03:52:00 -
[579] - Quote
Join me in voting for Hans Jagerblitzen, for the CSM7, Hans is the candidate that wants to make Empire space better for all players! |
Dread Red
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 03:57:00 -
[580] - Quote
Will Hans Jagerblitzen be on the EVE radio debate? |
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Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
16
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Posted - 2012.03.03 07:10:00 -
[581] - Quote
not this one think he was already on one, unfortunately the rewind feature on Eve radio only goes back so far so i was unable to listen to it, he does however have some great Interviews with VoV and news24 |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3103
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 08:04:00 -
[582] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: If null residents want occupancy to include revolve around structures, dreadnoughts, and POS shoots, GREAT!!...
Pro-Tip: We don't.
CCP just keep giving them to us anyway because for some reason they think we do.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3103
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 08:06:00 -
[583] - Quote
That's a warning, btw Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 08:14:00 -
[584] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: If null residents want occupancy to include revolve around structures, dreadnoughts, and POS shoots, GREAT!!... Pro-Tip: We don't.CCP just keep giving them to us anyway because for some reason they think we do.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:If null residents want occupancy to include revolve around structures, dreadnoughts, and POS shoots, GREAT!! I'm happy to support those changes as long as they apply to 0.0. Forcing null mechanics on a crowd that doesnt appreciate them is not only illogical, its dangerous in terms of customer retention. I'd hate to see another mini-Incarna rage summer because CCP didn't listen to the thousands of players enlisted in Faction Warfare.
Which I would have imagined would have largley been relieved if you had read the complete paragraph in context.
I'm happy to believe that something was lost in translation however as a result (aka missrepresenting), but it seems clear to me that Hans doesn't have aspirations to promote the mechanics you are objecting to as a result. Although he was trying to be accomodating in the process of course. |
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 08:35:00 -
[585] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:That's a warning, btw
Considering the above, is this a mostly useless piece of health and safety advice like "mind your head" signs?
Considering that Hans is showing a "heads up" awareness to this issue I doubt he needs to borrow your special helmet on the matter as a result.
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Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 09:03:00 -
[586] - Quote
Hans is probably one of the most level headed candidates. He's been bringing issues before CCP and the CSM before he even decided to run for CSM. He cares about the development of the game rather than just using the CSM as a means to feed his ego. He has my vote and I will be urging everyone I know in caldari FW to vote for him for CSM.
P.S. LOL@ goon trolls |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2000
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 10:59:00 -
[587] - Quote
Delici Feelgood wrote:Malcanis wrote:That's a warning, btw Considering the above, is this a mostly useless piece of health and safety advice like "mind your head" signs? Considering that Hans is showing a "heads up" awareness to this issue I doubt he needs to borrow your special helmet on the matter as a result.
I am happy to borrow Malcanis' helmet any time. He is one of the wisest voices on the forums, has transformed the way I personally look at certain game play issues, and been a major contributing influence on my campaign.
If I'm not misunderstood, he's just holding me to a high standard here and keeping me in check, both of which are appreciated.
Courthouse wrote:taking a position that the measures one takes to occupy space such that it's livable not being a part of the mechanics of transferring occupancy from one group to another is an illogical platform.
^^ This is what I was responding to, where Courthouse implies that structures occupying a system should be part of the transfer of sovereignty. I am well aware that the structure grind implemented as part of Dominion is NOT popular, and I am also familiar with the farms and fields vision for null sec iterations. I said what I said only to emphasize that it should be null sec residents who have the greatest say on future of null sec space.
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Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 11:11:00 -
[588] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Delici Feelgood wrote:Malcanis wrote:That's a warning, btw Considering the above, is this a mostly useless piece of health and safety advice like "mind your head" signs? Considering that Hans is showing a "heads up" awareness to this issue I doubt he needs to borrow your special helmet on the matter as a result. I am happy to borrow Malcanis' helmet any time. He is one of the wisest voices on the forums, has transformed the way I personally look at certain game play issues, and been a major contributing influence on my campaign. If I'm not misunderstood, he's just holding me to a high standard here and keeping me in check, both of which are appreciated.
Understood.
If I was cynical it could have been viewed due to the manipulation of what you'd said as a form of knuckle scraping intimidation as opposed to an awareness to interests.
But if you feel it is purely a sanity check then glad you can accomodate the thoughts. Understand the political savy as a result. |
Ray Mitar
Gankstas Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 13:38:00 -
[589] - Quote
If Hans Jagerblitzen can get players to cooperate in Empire space and join with them in FW I think he just might be the guy to unite players around the goal of making EVE Online BETTER for all players.
I live in null and the current CSM6 is great for the few giant alliances, but not for the little guys just starting out. I am not voting for any of the current members of CSM6 because they act like schoolyard thugs with no vision for improving the game. Additionally it seems like they want to take credit for CCP realizing they were going in the wrong direction when truth be told it was the actions of many players rioting and unsubscribing that made CCP reevaluate. If the CSM had really been effective they would have been able to convince CCP prior to the player revolt not afterwards. When the CSM finally gets CCP to listen what did they do? They get CCP to nerf everything their swamp with massive numbers tactics can't defeat. Selfish and small minded thugs squandering a great opportunity in my opinion.
More effective more rewarding FW will improve the PVP skills and coordinated combat skills of many newer players as well as older players who don't want PVP all the time, in my opinion, so I am supporting Hans Jagerblitzen.
The time has come for sensible rational leadership to speak for the majority of EVE players, the time for selfish juvenile bullies has past, vote for leadership that wants to improve the entire game, vote for Hans Jagerblitzen. |
Ray Mitar
Gankstas Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 13:51:00 -
[590] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: This time around I am convinced we need far better grass roots representation of the player base and much less monotone nullsec influence on the council.
That is precisely my mission here. The militia community has been really supportive in understanding that they really are only providing the core vote base needed to compete against the 0.0 power blocs, helping me to shrug off the question about viability that has been rightfully directed at the other empire "front runner" candidates so far. It will be the wide-ranging support of pilots like yourself that believe in the inherent value of my platform that will help me the rest of the way to a top seat. I want my election to CSM7 to be a truly grassroots effort spread among capsuleers from all walks of life who believe I can do a stand-up job of representing the non-null voice on the council. Hence, why Faction Warfare discussion only comprises a small portion of my complete platform. The difference between a militia "bloc" vote and an alliance bloc vote is simple - I have no whipping power or authority to force compliance from any Faction Warfare pilot, and certainly not those that belong to enemy factions. In order to secure widespread, unanimous support from the leadership of the four militias, I've had to convince them to cooperate with my campaign based solely on the merit of my ideas and their collective faith that I will protect their voice with CCP if elected. The work ahead of me now is to demonstrate to the voting public that the experience I've gained working with the militia community will equally serve the rest of the player base throughout the coming year. A power base built on the strength of his ideas and leadership skills alone with the express goal of being inclusive of all EVE players to make the game experience better across the board ...... Vote for Hans Jagerblitzen! |
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Mikalia Sunstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 14:37:00 -
[591] - Quote
Ray Mitar wrote:If Hans Jagerblitzen can get players to cooperate in Empire space and join with them in FW I think he just might be the guy to unite players around the goal of making EVE Online BETTER for all players.
I live in null and the current CSM6 is great for the few giant alliances, but not for the little guys just starting out. I am not voting for any of the current members of CSM6 because they act like schoolyard thugs with no vision for improving the game. Additionally it seems like they want to take credit for CCP realizing they were going in the wrong direction when truth be told it was the actions of many players rioting and unsubscribing that made CCP reevaluate. If the CSM had really been effective they would have been able to convince CCP prior to the player revolt not afterwards. When the CSM finally gets CCP to listen what did they do? They get CCP to nerf everything their swamp with massive numbers tactics can't defeat. Selfish and small minded thugs squandering a great opportunity in my opinion.
More effective more rewarding FW will improve the PVP skills and coordinated combat skills of many newer players as well as older players who don't want PVP all the time, in my opinion, so I am supporting Hans Jagerblitzen.
The time has come for sensible rational leadership to speak for the majority of EVE players, the time for selfish juvenile bullies has past, vote for leadership that wants to improve the entire game, vote for Hans Jagerblitzen.
I'd disagree with that assessment regarding TwoStep, Darius III, and maybe Trebor--my respect for Treb has see-sawed a bit over this last term--but overall:
This...Oh my freakin' God, THIS!
+1 Internets for you, Sir.
Hans for CSM7 Chairman!
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Silath Slyver Silverpine
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2012.03.03 16:49:00 -
[592] - Quote
*Edit* Ray Mitar kinda beat me to it
Reading through a few of the "I support this posts" I've noticed that a lot of them are because Hans supports improved FW (Captain Obvious here) But also, more importantly I feel, because people see him as someone that will be good for EVE as a whole.
The majority of the other candidates are basing their power on promising the people who want candy more candy... and damned be everything else! Which is terrible, as it discredits the CSM in the eyes of CCP and does nothing to improve EVE as a game, for the playerbase as a whole. Personally I've never taken part in faction warfare, or PVP of any sort really. But I think the ideas that Hans has will improve the game overall. Even if there was a candidate that wanted to boost mission running (Which is, IMO, the opposite of what needs to happen) I wouldn't vote for them. Would that candidate make me richer? Maybe. But they wouldn't be fixing any problems with EVE.
As an aside: Even though the nullsec powerblock candidates are often looked down on, I think they've actually done a decent job of furthering EVE as a whole, rather than just catering to nullsec. Frankly though I think fixing problems with lowsec would alleviate some of the issues with nullsec.
tl;dr- Hans is a person who I feel will improve EVE as a whole, rather than some who will push his specific issues at the cost of everything else. |
JiZzLoObber
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 18:49:00 -
[593] - Quote
HANS!!!!
I had the pleasure of flying in a combat Fleet with Hans Jagerblitzen last night in Heyd, *** EPIC DRED POONAGE!!!!! ***
TRUELY a voice for lo-sec peeps, he climbed into the FW trenches with us, provided outstanding logi support, and helped win the day!
I appreciate political Leaders that KNOW the game they play, KNOW the stuggles and strife encountered in lo-sec, and aint afraid to get a little close to yours truely in the heat of glorious Battle
Hans, thanks for coming out with us last night m8
VOTE FOR HANS!!!!!
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Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 19:02:00 -
[594] - Quote
JiZzLoObber wrote:HANS!!!! I had the pleasure of flying in a combat Fleet with Hans Jagerblitzen last night in Heyd, *** EPIC DRED POONAGE!!!!! *** TRUELY a voice for lo-sec peeps, he climbed into the FW trenches with us, provided outstanding logi support, and helped win the day! I appreciate political Leaders that KNOW the game they play, KNOW the stuggles and strife encountered in lo-sec, and aint afraid to get a little close to yours truely in the heat of glorious Battle Hans, thanks for coming out with us last night m8 VOTE FOR HANS!!!!!
I wasn't in that fleet, but i helped/whored on the Dreads |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2008
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 19:23:00 -
[595] - Quote
Simyaldee wrote:I wasn't in that fleet, but i helped/whored on the Dreads
So we had three militias involved than, a fine display of cross-faction cooperation. I'm glad you got a chance to join in the glory!
I had a blast fighting the Shadow Cartel, I'll head over there again soon so the brave pilots who lost their capitals will have the opportunity for revenge. Keep an eye out for me! |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
164
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 20:16:00 -
[596] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Simyaldee wrote:I wasn't in that fleet, but i helped/whored on the Dreads So we had three militias involved than, a fine display of cross-faction cooperation. I'm glad you got a chance to join in the glory! I had a blast fighting the Shadow Cartel, I'll head over there again soon so the brave pilots who lost their capitals will have the opportunity for revenge. Keep an eye out for me!
How did you guys lose that archon btw? I had just logged on when people were linking battle report so no idea what happened. It seemed like shadow cartel got blobbed a little bit. |
JiZzLoObber
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 22:42:00 -
[597] - Quote
Yeah, dont know how we lost the carrier, we may have been too busy blowing up the 3 or 4 Dreds and thier Archon..... but I do remember someone saying that..... Needless to say, with the loot and salvage from the Dreds, our carrier pilot that got popped actually made a profit from the loss, lol
btw, thanks for all the shinys Shadow Cartel !
Yeah Hans, you can fight and/or Logi for us ANYTIME, that was awesome, we were glad to have you with us |
WhiteGhostBear
The New Lunar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 02:05:00 -
[598] - Quote
Bump for the candidate who will be getting my votes this time around. His focus on FW will be good for Eve as a whole; a better FW means a better home for pilots that want 24/7 pew pew but don't want the nullsec drama and alarm clock ops. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 08:12:00 -
[599] - Quote
WhiteGhostBear wrote:Bump for the candidate who will be getting my votes this time around. His focus on FW will be good for Eve as a whole; a better FW means a better home for pilots that want 24/7 pew pew but don't want the nullsec drama and alarm clock ops. Goddess I should hope not.
FW is Eve, it is unique in that it has elements of all other areas in roughly equal measures; EHP grinds, small and large gang warfare, small and large ships, aggression/standings mechanics etc.
What Hans represents, and the reason why I (and many others I suspect) support him, is that he brings working knowledge of the whole she-bang to the table, that he due to his limited years knows that he does not know everything and has the wisdom to recognize that - complete with willingness to defer to those who do .. in short he has not yet been afflicted by that dreaded BitterVet SyndromeGäó.
A focus on FW would be a colossal mistake as it is made up of mechanics from everywhere/everything and thus stand to gain far more from a wider overhaul of mechanics in general. The "only" truly FW specific change required is the carrot/stick for occupancy, rest ties into Eve at large. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3105
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 10:35:00 -
[600] - Quote
Delici Feelgood wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Delici Feelgood wrote:Malcanis wrote:That's a warning, btw Considering the above, is this a mostly useless piece of health and safety advice like "mind your head" signs? Considering that Hans is showing a "heads up" awareness to this issue I doubt he needs to borrow your special helmet on the matter as a result. I am happy to borrow Malcanis' helmet any time. He is one of the wisest voices on the forums, has transformed the way I personally look at certain game play issues, and been a major contributing influence on my campaign. If I'm not misunderstood, he's just holding me to a high standard here and keeping me in check, both of which are appreciated. Understood. If I was cynical it could have been viewed due to the manipulation of what you'd said as a form of knuckle scraping intimidation as opposed to an awareness to interests. But if you feel it is purely a sanity check then glad you can accomodate the thoughts. Understand the political savy as a result.
It was a warning for Hans, not a warning to him. The last time 0.0 sov was reworked, there was no consensus at all amongst 0.0 sov pilots that what we wanted was even more structure grinding. We specificaly said "Dear sweet baby jesus, please do not couple sov 0.0 to structure grinding".
What we got was Dominion.
That's my warning. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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