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Antodias Ethically Challenged	Posted - 2007.12.29 12:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Edited by: Thorek Ironbrow on 29/12/2007 12:17:12 Technically, insurance is a sink. Because if you think about it. If you pay 2 million to insure a Caracal for 6 million. You've spent 8 million. You get it blown up, you only get 6 million back to buy the Caracal. But you don't get the other two million back unless you do some good missions or get something worth over two million. Maybe if the price to insure a ship was increased, that would be a big sink, especially since I'm sure everyone insures their ship. For you it is an ISK sink, but for the whole economy it is a faucet. That 6 million you were paid came from nowhere, it entered the economy and only 2 million left. Therefore the economy has a net ISK gain of ~ + 4 million. ------------------------------------ Politically Correct since 2007. No really.
Desh Craven	Posted - 2007.12.29 12:41:00 - [62] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Where is the balance in this? Mission running ISK isn't the real problem. ISK is of no value if there is nothing to buy with that ISK. Empire missions should not provide raw materials or items that would otherwise be attainable only through mining ops in lowsec/0.0. What i've understood from talk of players that have been around for years, the PvE material sources are distorting the market. Apparently, two years ago the rare mineral prices used to be sky high. There is no real shortage of goods, so there is no inflation. Goods through PvE might not be the only thing distorting the market, but it would seem it is a major one.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 12:59:00 - [63] Originally by: Omega Man Originally by: Bellum Eternus I was doing some thinking while waiting for some carebears to undock their carriers and came to some conclusions: ISK 'faucets' such as missions and mining How does mining generate isk? Indrectly, Minerals from mining can be built into ships that blow up - thus indrectly create isk via insurance. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.12.29 13:01:00 - [64] POS warfare is probably one of the largest isk sinks in game.
Cat Casidy Wise Guys Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.29 14:09:00 - [65] Edited by: Cat Casidy on 29/12/2007 14:12:19 Edited by: Cat Casidy on 29/12/2007 14:11:43 Originally by: Crumplecorn In after, and almost certainly before, people who don't bother reading the thread. Second! I hope -edit-> i did but .... ya at this point why bother My two cents..... you owe me a nickle now btw
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 14:19:00 - [66] Originally by: Wild Rho POS warfare is probably one of the largest isk sinks in game. QFT. People spend Billions every hour on pos, NPC Tradegoods used by pos as fuel, as well as modules etc. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Nicoli Voldkif Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2007.12.29 14:43:00 - [67] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Anyone else noticing that the prices for CNRs, Navy Megas and other faction BS is dropping through the floor? Why? Market saturation. All the mission runners already have a maxed out CNR/Navy Mega/whatever and don't need any more. So I'm wondering what is the most important group of people in Eve when it comes to a healthy economy, and why that is, and how to generate a more vigorous turn over and exchange of ISK/material wealth between the players who have it, and those who don't. Isn't it bad for the economy for wealth to stagnate and not move anywhere? One thing that was missed from the above formula is that materials/isk that are not moving between players generally have no effect on the market. If I managed to get 1 googol of isk until I use that money to trade it has no effect on the market. Once I begin to use that money to trade it starts to affect the market value of isk. In a very general since the more that stuff sits on the market the cheaper it becomes and there is a deflation of prices as shown with the T2 ship/module prices after invention. The faster that materials change hands you generally see an inflation of prices as sellers are able to raise prices and still move goods. In the real world stockpiling of money tends to have an effect on the value of money because its rarely truly stagnate, money in banks are used by the banks to provide loans which causes that money to change hands. Since the money that sits in wallets in EVE is not used at all (Think a stack of money on your desk) the overall wealth a person has does not have any direct affect on the market value of Isk, Indirectly it will have some effects mostly through the demand on goods but that will effect price not so much inflation/deflation.
Cor Aidan	Posted - 2007.12.29 15:19:00 - [68] Originally by: Desh Craven Mission running ISK isn't the real problem. ISK is of no value if there is nothing to buy with that ISK. Empire missions should not provide raw materials or items that would otherwise be attainable only through mining ops in lowsec/0.0. Actually, that's the ideal way to create ISK. Currency should directly reflect the amount of wealth in the system to avoid inflation. This means that when you create wealth (blow up a rat and get loot/salvage) you also get the currency to balance out that wealth. Likewise, when you mine, you create wealth, so ISK should be generated - but that's more complicated because you don't get a "bounty" for mining. However, as noted: Originally by: Jonny JoJo Indrectly, Minerals from mining can be built into ships... Mining does end up creating ISK by allowing players to collect bounties. This is not a 'firm' link between the wealth and currency though, as there is theoretically an infinite amount of currency able to be generated by a single ship because there is an infinite supply of rats. So an intelligent purchaser will price the ship based on a discounted future value of the ship...but most people just base the price on the current market value of the minerals used to produce it plus some markup.
Draconyx	Posted - 2007.12.29 15:22:00 - [69] A SINK is something that removes ISK from the game ie. Insurance. NPC Station taxes for selling and buying goods. Corp Offices in NPC Stations. Ship & Mod building (In the form of NPC trade goods & Taxes) Skill books (THis adds up to ALOT) There are probably several others Faucets are items that create ISK in the game. Ratting Mission Running Trading NPC goods Neither Faucet or Sink Now MINING is neither a Faucet or a Sink. In actual fact it only redistributes ISK that is in the game. I mine ICE or ORE I get the appropriate byproducts. Thre are NO NPC buyers for said byproducts. The only way I can make ISK is to sell the byproducts to others players. So I am NOT creating ISK only trading my products for another players ISK. So mining only adds Minerals or Ice to the game (NOT ISK) which is based entirely on demand of the PvP'rs So in actual fact ISK is CREATED by PVP'rs and Mission Runners NOT (miners or industrialists)
Kyra Felann Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.12.29 15:33:00 - [70] Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad Alright, I can't read all these replies, and I'm only gonna make this clear once. Mining is an ISK sink. You mine the ore. Probably refine it. Doesn't matter. Now you sell the ore, and you get ISK. But that ISK comes from someone else. It doesn't just appear, someone bought your ****. The only net change in the economy is the tax on the transfer that takes a small cut out of the economy. PVE is an ISK faucet. Mission rewards and bounties are money that just appear out of thin air. Selling the loot is an ISK sink. Again, you got the loot for free, but someone had to buy it/reproccessed minerals from it for you to make money. The only net change there is, again, the tax. Insurance is an ISK faucet. You buy a Raven. Money exchanges hands between players, but the only net change is tax. You insure the Raven. You lose, say for simplicity's sake, 20 mil ISK. That money is out of the economy. At this point it's an ISK sink. You buy modules. No net change besides tax, because while you're losing money through buying, another player is making money from the sale. It's still in the economy. Now, you lose the Raven. Pirates loot it. You collect, say 100mil from insurance. That money appears from thin air. Half your gear is looted. The pirates sell it. No net change (save taxes), for them to sell someone else has to pay. If it was rigged, also no change. You paid for the rigs, but another player got the money. The ISK is still out there. So the only net change (taxes are fairly negligible) is 100mil you gained from insurance, 20 mil you lost for the initial payment. It's a net 80mil ISK faucet. Don't confuse your own personal loss with an ISK sink. The money's still out there, you just don't have it any more. Finally--someone who knows what he's talking about.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.29 15:34:00 - [71] Originally by: Xaen Insurance. T2 ships. Do the math. Yes, OK. Let's do the math. I buy a Jaguar from someone for 9M. I am personally 9M poorer; the producer (unless you have a way of buying ships from NPCs) is 9M richer. Total ISK in economy: same as it was before the purchase. Said Jaguar gets destroyed - i get a default insurance payout of 1.2-1.3M I think. ISK in the economy: 1.2-1.3M as it was before it blew up. Insuring it just means that more ISK will eventually get in the economy, actually. Rifters!
Desh Craven	Posted - 2007.12.29 15:41:00 - [72] Originally by: Draconyx Edited by: Draconyx on 29/12/2007 15:32:46 A SINK is something that removes ISK from the game ie. Insurance. NPC Station taxes for selling and buying goods. Corp Offices in NPC Stations. Ship & Mod building (In the form of NPC trade goods & Taxes) Skill books (THis adds up to ALOT) There are probably several others Faucets are items that create ISK in the game. Ratting Mission Running Trading NPC goods Neither Faucet or Sink Now MINING is neither a Faucet or a Sink. In actual fact it only redistributes ISK that is in the game. I mine ICE or ORE I get the appropriate byproducts. Thre are NO NPC buyers for said byproducts. The only way I can make ISK is to sell the byproducts to others players. So I am NOT creating ISK only trading my products for another players ISK. So mining only adds Minerals or Ice to the game (NOT ISK) which is based entirely on demand of the PvP'rs So in actual fact ISK is CREATED by PVP'rs Ratting or just Ratters in general and Mission Runners NOT (miners or industrialists) So why is that? Why is the most logical way of getting ISK into the economy not there? Why is there no NPC demand for everything?
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research	Posted - 2007.12.29 15:47:00 - [73] Aren't tech 1 blueprints sinks. Don't they get sold by NPCs? _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa or Itamo to join!
Kalixa Hihro	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:06:00 - [74] Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 29/12/2007 04:18:41 Originally by: Paulo Damarr Never thought of of it that way but it makes total sense, any act where you mine something or receive a bounty or loot drop is a creation of the ISK in the game and after that ISK is not destroyed or lost its just transferred around. Actually, the 'creation' of loot and minerals out of nothing keeps a check on the relative effects of inflation. The destruction of material has the opposite effect, since the same amount of isk remains in the game while there is now less material to trade for it, thus increasing inflation (relatively speaking). The amount of isk in the game is always going up. CCP is constantly printing money in the form of missions, bounties and insurance payouts. Without periodic corrections inflation is inevitable. In the real world, you would have hyperinflation in any country where this occurred. From a macro economics standpoint, the only real isk sinks in this game are taxes and npc stations that sell npc things (like huge containers and commodities). On a game wide economic scale this isn't a drop in the bucket when compared to how much isk is flowing into the economy. You can't even argue that ship destruction is a macro economic sink because it's not. It didn't cause any isk to leave the game. The minerals came from mining. The money that was paid for the ship is still in the economy (in the seller's wallet), and the insurance faucet opened up and paid the player when his ship was blown up. The net isk in the economy was increased as a result of his ship destruction. The player flying the ship lost isk, but the economy did not. It gained isk, roughly double what left the economy when the player insured his ship (for the sake of example). Ship destruction is not a sink, macro-economically speaking, it's a faucet. If the player forgot to insure, approximately half the insurance value of the ship in isk left the economy( if you consider platinum insurance as a standard). People that forget to insure are actually helping the economy ROFL. -K /----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong.
dakari	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:09:00 - [75] You're sorta right, carebears do hide in stations, but I've seen more "PvP" players hiding in stations til reinforcements arrive than carebears because most carebears get killed by gatecampers or if in a wardec'd corp they leave and move to an NPC corp. As to your "ISK flow and lack of flow" theories, what's the point? you lose ships you have a chance of getting a module worth several million plus your insurance means you have a good chance to get back into ship pretty fast. 0.4-0.0 do have a high ISK loss, but how many 0.5-1.0 corps actually have the tech 2 BPO's and never see 0.4-0.0 space?So by my reasoning the 0.0 corps have the most money and the highest ISK generation ability for the purpose of PvP. The only people making ISK hand over fist in high security are macro miners or multi link multi boxers with 4+ accounts running at one time, all the rest are providing salvage and minerals for everyone else to buy cheaply and build their ships and modules.
dakari	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:15:00 - [76] Originally by: Desh Craven Edited by: Desh Craven on 29/12/2007 12:53:24 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Where is the balance in this? Mission running ISK isn't the real problem. ISK is of no value if there is nothing to buy with that ISK. Empire missions should not provide raw materials or items that would otherwise be attainable only through mining ops in lowsec/0.0. What i've understood from talk of players that have been around for years, the PvE material sources are distorting the market. Apparently, two years ago the rare mineral prices used to be sky high. There is no real shortage of goods, so there is no inflation. Goods through PvE might not be the only thing distorting the market, but it would seem it is a major one. Insurance mechanics could use tweaking atleast, but it's merely a pebble in the big pile of rubble that is the current economy. Actually I re-upped after a 3 year gap and unless something changed in that 3 year period megacyte and zydrine prices have not changed. The other minerals are cheaper it seems(trit used to sell for close to 4 in some places) but the "rare" minerals are pretty much the same maybe +/- 300 depending upon region. From basic memory ships are actually more expensive now, I used to make and sell scorpions for 30million now I see them selling for 50 million or mroe now. But if you look past the "empire has it too easy" ideals and you will find mor 0.0 corps make more isk than any other corp around, which is the way it should be since they lose more ships and equipment, but blaming high security for easy ISK just ignores all the factors in the game.
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:28:00 - [77] Edited by: Exlegion on 29/12/2007 16:32:45 Originally by: Kalixa Hihro Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 29/12/2007 04:18:41 Originally by: Paulo Damarr Never thought of of it that way but it makes total sense, any act where you mine something or receive a bounty or loot drop is a creation of the ISK in the game and after that ISK is not destroyed or lost its just transferred around. Actually, the 'creation' of loot and minerals out of nothing keeps a check on the relative effects of inflation. The destruction of material has the opposite effect, since the same amount of isk remains in the game while there is now less material to trade for it, thus increasing inflation (relatively speaking). The amount of isk in the game is always going up. CCP is constantly printing money in the form of missions, bounties and insurance payouts. Without periodic corrections inflation is inevitable. In the real world, you would have hyperinflation in any country where this occurred. From a macro economics standpoint, the only real isk sinks in this game are taxes and npc stations that sell npc things (like huge containers and commodities). On a game wide economic scale this isn't a drop in the bucket when compared to how much isk is flowing into the economy. You can't even argue that ship destruction is a macro economic sink because it's not. It didn't cause any isk to leave the game. The minerals came from mining. The money that was paid for the ship is still in the economy (in the seller's wallet), and the insurance faucet opened up and paid the player when his ship was blown up. The net isk in the economy was increased as a result of his ship destruction. The player flying the ship lost isk, but the economy did not. It gained isk, roughly double what left the economy when the player insured his ship (for the sake of example). Ship destruction is not a sink, macro-economically speaking, it's a faucet. If the player forgot to insure, approximately half the insurance value of the ship in isk left the economy( if you consider platinum insurance as a standard). People that forget to insure are actually helping the economy ROFL. -K Actually, we seem to agree. I was referring more to the comment from Paulo Damarr that mining and collecting loot create isk, when in fact, they create deflation. The reason I keep using the term 'relatively speaking' is because when a mission runner collects bounties AND the loot AND salvages the wrecks he/she has more or less curbed inflation. There is more isk due to bounties in the Eve economy, but there is also more material to trade for the isk. Prices should more or less remain stable. The net effect should be close to null. Not collecting loot or salvaging DOES create inflation. On the other hand, and as you said, ship destruction does, 'relatively' speaking, create inflation. Destruction of material without the removal of isk has left this net isk without value in the game. Even though there was no isk creation isk did increase when compared to the trade goods available in the game. isk + goods = zero net effect (ex. Mission runner/ratter that collects loot and salvages) isk + 0 goods = inflation (ex. Mission Runner that only collects bounty) 0 isk - goods = inflation (PVPer) -isk + 0 goods = deflation (POS, Skill books, Equipment repair) 0 isk + goods = deflation (Miner) Anyway, just thought I'd let you know I agree with what you say. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:47:00 - [78] There was a discussion much like this in the brutor tribe corp chat a day or 2 ago. I can see why some people find it difficult to understand how faucets and sinks work to start with, but I am surprised by how hard it is to convince someone. Basically the OP has got it all backwards isk being removed from the economy is a sink isk coming into the economy is a faucet the economy doesn't care how much isk your wallet is currently set at, or any change in it. it only cares about the total amount Someone (forget who) asked why the npc's don't buy up goods as well as sell them (like shuttles) to cap the lower end of minerals as well I'm pretty sure that actually balances itself out. If minerals get to a ridiculously low price it just means ships will be cheap to produce, (and more affordable to lose) so they'll get destroyed more. mining will be less attractive, so people will go do something fun instead (go plow something up, removing minerals form the economy) Originally by: Crumplecorn In after, and almost certainly before, people who don't bother reading the thread. Oh, and i did actually read the entire thread ;)
Nicoli Voldkif Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2007.12.29 17:23:00 - [79] Originally by: Exlegion isk + goods = zero net effect (eg, Mission runner/ratter that collects loot and salvages) isk + 0 goods = inflation (eg, Mission Runner that only collects bounty) 0 isk - goods = inflation (eg, PVPer) -isk + 0 goods = deflation (eg, non-mining POS, Skill books, Equipment repair) 0 isk + goods = deflation (eg, Miner) The trick is keeping these equations balanced relative to each other and still keeping the 'fun' factor up. Good luck, CCP . Also, deflation/inflation aren't necessarily a bad thing. It's the over-inflation/deflation that can kill an economy. Anyway, just thought I'd let you know I agree with what you say. I could also be completely wrong since I'm not an economist. Although I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night . Your very close and in a very basic way your right. What you missing is the movement of those goods and isk between players/enities. money and goods only have value at the time of a transaction, when you appraise something you find its assumed value if you would sell it. The ratio of money to goods when combined with the movement of goods and money and I'm sure a few more factors that I don't know all go into whether or not there is inflation or deflation. EVE has seen Deflation not inflation according to Dr. EyjoG speech during fanfest. Generally speaking you are able to buy more for your money now then 3 years ago when I started. Battleships have dropped almost 30 mil in some cases. EVEs economy is very stable and solid and there is very little inflation. One thing to watch out for is the difference between Price inflation and Monetary inflation. T2 ships like HACs/Command Ships display Price inflation from supply and demand issues not actual monetary inflation like if the cost of all t2 ships went up 25%.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.29 18:42:00 - [80] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Omega Man Originally by: Bellum Eternus I was doing some thinking while waiting for some carebears to undock their carriers and came to some conclusions: ISK 'faucets' such as missions and mining How does mining generate isk? Indrectly, Minerals from mining can be built into ships that blow up - thus indrectly create isk via insurance. lol that's a little out of the way. it's a sink mate it makes isk worth more. pink supporter! Future art director at CCP! or texture guy, either or :P http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Drop Was in class with these folks :P
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.29 19:15:00 - [81] Originally by: Draconyx Edited by: Draconyx on 29/12/2007 15:32:46 A SINK is something that removes ISK from the game ie. Insurance. NPC Station taxes for selling and buying goods. Corp Offices in NPC Stations. Ship & Mod building (In the form of NPC trade goods & Taxes) Skill books (THis adds up to ALOT) There are probably several others Faucets are items that create ISK in the game. Ratting Mission Running Trading NPC goods Neither Faucet or Sink Now MINING is neither a Faucet or a Sink. In actual fact it only redistributes ISK that is in the game. I mine ICE or ORE I get the appropriate byproducts. Thre are NO NPC buyers for said byproducts. The only way I can make ISK is to sell the byproducts to others players. So I am NOT creating ISK only trading my products for another players ISK. So mining only adds Minerals or Ice to the game (NOT ISK) which is based entirely on demand of the PvP'rs So in actual fact ISK is CREATED by PVP'rs Ratting or just Ratters in general and Mission Runners NOT (miners or industrialists) Insurance payout are big isk faucet.
Lardarz B'stard Amarr Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.29 19:23:00 - [82] * Paging Dr. Eggnog to this thread to explain tings to deez peeps Originally by:** Kindakrof there is no gravity in space
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.29 19:56:00 - [83] Originally by: Venkul Mul Indifferent Xaen, even if the insurance payout was 1 isk more than the cost, it is an isk faucet. You lose material wealth when you lose a ship, not isk, but you (and the whole system) gain isk. Most don't insure T2 ships. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Mikelio Raijan Sulithus	Posted - 2007.12.29 20:26:00 - [84] Edited by: Mikelio Raijan on 29/12/2007 20:28:18 Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Venkul Mul Indifferent Xaen, even if the insurance payout was 1 isk more than the cost, it is an isk faucet. You lose material wealth when you lose a ship, not isk, but you (and the whole system) gain isk. Most don't insure T2 ships. ...and when the ship goes boom they still receive 40% of the ships insurable value. Did you understand ANY PART of this thread? Originally by: Mikelio Raijan ...also, Pyramid quote time! \o/ Sorry everyone who received a 'forum break' for continuing this.
Draconyx	Posted - 2007.12.29 20:39:00 - [85] Alright lets get this straight once and for all. Insurance can be EITHER a FAUCET or SINK. Insurance by its very principle is a SINK. The premise on how a insurance company works is more people pay into the system then those that take out. You CAN NOT look and single or even multiple examples as justification. You have to look at the system as a WHOLE. BUT If EVE's insurance is giving out more then it is taking in then it is a Faucet. Now the only ones that can answer for sure how it is doing is CCP. And if it is a faucet and they consider it to be a problem then Insurance will have to go bankrupt or the rates will have to go up on high risk ships :)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 21:28:00 - [86] Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Aren't tech 1 blueprints sinks. Don't they get sold by NPCs? Yes. Anything sold by NPC's, such as POS Fuel, Blueprints, Skills, Tradegoods etc are all isk sinks. But remember - a blueprint is not a isk sink if oyu buy it form another player - since the other player gained isk so the balance is still the same. There is no intrest in eve, therefore inflation is supply/demand. Prices for t1 goods are rigged so that they can never get too expensive or too cheap (due to insurance) Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Iyhi Baal	Posted - 2007.12.29 21:38:00 - [87] Bellum, you chose the path of outlaw. Outlaws have been and should be relegated to the fringes of society. Why should you have "access" to the wealth of players that wants to experience Eve at a higher level than that of the insipid gate camp. I personally mine, mission, and build ships because I am interested in gathering enough wealth to dominate a region -- not 1 vs 1 (or in your case 1 vs 4-10 BC at the Decon gate). The losses outside of empire are can be catastrophic. Furthermore, just meeting the needs to maintain an alliance's holdings do provide a substantial load on their local and the empire economy. Any marketeer can pretty much tell you who is building what and who is losing what just by how much work they have to put into turning a profit in empire. You don't see this because shuttles, frigs, and the occasional cruiser/BC that you get don't by themselves amount to much on the scale of this economy; by extension your actions don't amount to much. If you want more from Eve put more into it. Raise you level of play. Don't waste time and forum space whining about a nerf that would make it easier for you to gank newbies without risk. If you really want to improve Eve you should be asking for changes that enhance the play for the entire Eve community. How about a meaningful bounty system that is not exploitable by the outlaws themselves? How about just getting off the gates and see if you could survive on a playing field that while not level at least is not so heavily stacked in your favor that you may actually have to think for a change. I really don't think that you want that kind of change. There is vast wealth in low spec and people are starting to notice it. As null space gets more hotly contested and empire more crowed with fewer opportunities, we will see an exodus to low sec of small corps looking to make their way. You and your kinds days are numbered and there is no adapting that will save you. You should thank me for the heads up. I am already there... ################# I see you!
Tzar'rim Minmatar Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2007.12.29 23:06:00 - [88] One of the things that keeps prices in check of the normal items like T1 ships and modules (making it seem as if there's no inflation) is the sheer amount of supply, even more when there's a lot of people who either accept a tiny amount of profit or STILL don't understand that the ore they mined represent a monetary value. As long as there's so many players investing in production and everything related to that normal items will stay right where they are. Understand ofcourse that a large part of inflation is the result of loans and interest, which do NOT play a large factor in this game. That's very much diffirent ofcourse IRL where just about everything is financed and/or loaned to the extreme.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:11:00 - [89] Originally by: Draconyx Alright lets get this straight once and for all. Insurance can be EITHER a FAUCET or SINK. Insurance by its very principle is a SINK. The premise on how a insurance company works is more people pay into the system then those that take out. You CAN NOT look and single or even multiple examples as justification. You have to look at the system as a WHOLE. BUT If EVE's insurance is giving out more then it is taking in then it is a Faucet. Now the only ones that can answer for sure how it is doing is CCP. And if it is a faucet and they consider it to be a problem then Insurance will have to go bankrupt or the rates will have to go up on high risk ships :) As it is a subsidizing for PvPers and new players it will not change, even if probably it is one of the biggest isk faucet, giving a 3 to 1 return for the isk invested. The only people losing isk to insurance are mission runner with pimped ships and a lot of experience and skill and industrialist that never leave a station. Both kind of player probably aren't even insuring the ships as the few ships they loose will have survived for several insurance cycles, making it not worth to insure, and the loss of the modules/rigs/cargo heavily outweight the loss for the ship.
Barbelo Valentinian Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:14:00 - [90] Originally by: Desh Craven So why is that? Why is the most logical way of getting ISK into the economy not there? Why is there no NPC demand for everything? Since there is NPC source for minerals and through salvaging, along with mining the market ends up saturated. So there should be NPC demand also for all that stuff to prevent market saturation, cause higher demand, and thus inflation. Doesn't make sense that mission running and ratting create both ISK and raw materials, but mining does not. Interesting point - how would it change the economy if rats' ships and materials (including the stuff looted) had actually been bought in the market by automated processes?

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