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Ganagati
Perkone Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 04:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Is it worth doing level 4s anymore to try to pay for PLEXs, with incursions out. I know very little about incursions, as I had taken quite a long break from the game and haven't messed with the new mechanic yet. Basically, I've been hearing that PLEX prices are shooting up due to incursions flooding the market with isk.
A) Is this true? B) If A is true, then where does that leave level 4 mission runners when making money to purchase a PLEX? If you bring in an average 15-20 mil an hour or so, is that still competitive enough with incursions to make it worthwhile to continue doing?
To me, incursions would be no more or less fun, I believe, than level 4s. So I'm not looking for "Do whatever you want", but more for a financial competitiveness opinion between the two. Would the amount I bring in with incursions be so much greater that level 4s, which I only do for the money... not because I particularly enjoy them, would be a waste of time?
Less time I spend PvEing, the more time I can spend getting back out there and trying to get back into PvP. So any help would be great! Proof Titans are rare (just another null battle): http://i.imgur.com/CY6x4.jpg-áBattles in EVE can look kinda silly sometimes, huh? |
BearJews
YOU BETTER The Ascendancy
26
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 04:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
do incursions, forget lvl4s unless it's for standings.
a) No concrete proof b) look at A
average incursion vanguard fleet will net you around 60-80mil per hour. High end 140 mil, but those are extremely shiny ships. Low end about 10 mil in an hour if it's highly competitive or if you can't get into a fleet. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 04:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ganagati wrote:Is it worth doing level 4s anymore to try to pay for PLEXs, with incursions out. I know very little about incursions, as I had taken quite a long break from the game and haven't messed with the new mechanic yet. Basically, I've been hearing that PLEX prices are shooting up due to incursions flooding the market with isk.
A) Is this true? B) If A is true, then where does that leave level 4 mission runners when making money to purchase a PLEX? If you bring in an average 15-20 mil an hour or so, is that still competitive enough with incursions to make it worthwhile to continue doing?
To me, incursions would be no more or less fun, I believe, than level 4s. So I'm not looking for "Do whatever you want", but more for a financial competitiveness opinion between the two. Would the amount I bring in with incursions be so much greater that level 4s, which I only do for the money... not because I particularly enjoy them, would be a waste of time?
Less time I spend PvEing, the more time I can spend getting back out there and trying to get back into PvP. So any help would be great! A) If you have no preference either way and don't mind working in a fleet with others incursions seem the way to go so far as isk/hour goes. Especially at 15-20m/hour. Individual vanguard sites, the most popular ones run, are 10.5m each in highsec and are done in less than 10min by any competent fleet. B) Can't answer this. Despite the fact that I still mission I don't plex so can't answer. |
Nina Lowel
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 05:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Making money in EVE:
1. Do Incursions 2. ???? 3. Make a billion isk every 7 hours.
How to make mining worth it:
1. Introduce a system that gives players 1 billion isk every 7 hours 2. Cause unprecedented inflation. 3. ???? 4. Trit goes for 30isk. |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 05:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is no evidence that incursions are significantly driving up PLEX prices. Also the numbers show that loot drops were worth far more more than incursions. Add to that that Incursion runners are/were mission runners as well.
For a single account incursions in a decent ship are slightly better isk/hr than missions wildly depending on many variables. The advantage here is group play which is very good in an MMO.
For a player with one or more viable alts mission running is better. This is due to FCs usually discouraging/banning use of alts in fleets. They want you focused on a single client. Also mission running is nearly constant with little downtime due to 2x bad missions in a row (4x with 2 accounts) And that is easily mitigated by having standings with multiple LVL4 agents or corps.
As you can see the current system is pretty good for PVE content in hisec. There are advantages and disadvantages. |
Nina Lowel
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 06:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:There is no evidence that incursions are significantly driving up PLEX prices. Also the numbers show that loot drops were worth far more more than incursions. Add to that that Incursion runners are/were mission runners as well.
For a single account incursions in a decent ship are slightly better isk/hr than missions wildly depending on many variables. The advantage here is group play which is very good in an MMO. Its absurb For a player with one or more viable alts mission running is better. This is due to FCs usually discouraging/banning use of alts in fleets. They want you focused on a single client. Also mission running is nearly constant with little downtime due to 2x bad missions in a row (4x with 2 accounts) And that is easily mitigated by having standings with multiple LVL4 agents or corps.
As you can see the current system is pretty good for PVE content in hisec. There are advantages and disadvantages.
You're out of your mind. Why would you run missions with an alt when you can run incursions with said alt and make 280mil an hour in incursions?
You're speaking like a true heroic incursion runner there every hour you can hoping they don't nerf the isk/h of it. The isk/h is absurd, eveyone knows it, don't act like it isn't. I admit I am there every chance I get. Its basically free isk and my wallet is loving it. |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 07:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
280M an hour? In what EVE are you talking about?
#1 90M an hour assumes close to perfect conditions. There are many times that does not happen.
#2 FCs don't want you to use alts and there are a few that I know of that will find out if you are using an alt. They have lost too many ships and too many contests to those distracted trying to manage two clients.
Free isk? Wrong. big group risk good reward.
The isk is absurd? The numbers themselves show that bounties are pouring MUCH MUCH more isk into the economy than incursions. They are fine. |
Valei Khurelem
277
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 08:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quote:2. Cause unprecedented inflation.
The prices you've seen are inflation already happening, I don't understand why people think this was happening before incursions.
"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP." -á - CCP Ytterbium |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1056
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 08:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
280 mill an hr doing incursions?
What a bunch of BS. Also if you're gonna try to rag on Incursions, then post with your main character.
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Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
33
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 11:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote: You're out of your mind. Why would you run missions with an alt when you can run incursions with said alt and make 280mil an hour in incursions?
The bullshit is strong in this one. Its like saying that you can make 608 million isk / h with l4s, because there is a single mission which would lead to this kind of income IF you run it with 4 alts constantly. |
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Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
303
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 11:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pre incursions a plex was around 350 to 380 mill or so and doing missions would make you up to around 40 mill an hour reasonably. After incursions, 100 mill an hour is easy, the game is flooded with alot of isk and plex are around 500 mill or so.
So basically no, Incursions have made plex more expensive, so doing incursions is the way to go. This in turn will flood Eve with even more isk, probably making plex more expensive.. Ad infinitum. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Sade Onyx
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 12:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Inflation has been on the increase since they introduced Havens and Sanctum's farming and is a wider issue than just incursions.
Incursions are more fun to do and thats why a lot of the competition comes from 0.0 alts, but honestly, the hours and days you could spend waiting around trying to get into a good fleet means that actually, you could make just as much money from blitzing level 4's
Its true, you could make about 70-100 mil an hour, with the correct fleet, but the reality is that because you need logi pilots and because of competition from other fleets, for every 100m you make, chances are you've wasted 2 hours waiting on someone or waiting for a fleet.
with level 4's theres no need to wait for anyone, and in a system with 2 or 3 level 4 agents you can pick and chose only the most profitable missions and easily make just as much money... overall ! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4850
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 12:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Also the numbers show that loot drops were worth far more more than incursions. What numbers?
Quote:Inflation has been on the increase since they introduced Havens and Sanctum's farming and is a wider issue than just incursions. Funnily enough, haven and sanctum farming has not increased the amount of ISK coming into the game. In fact, the rewards for those kinds of activities lag behind the rest of the economy by ~25%.
As for missions vs. incursions, the average incursion-runner makes some 30+ù more raw ISK than the average mission-runner (but that's for all missions, not just L4s). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
286
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 13:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Also the numbers show that loot drops were worth far more more than incursions. What numbers? Quote:Inflation has been on the increase since they introduced Havens and Sanctum's farming and is a wider issue than just incursions. Funnily enough, haven and sanctum farming has not increased the amount of ISK coming into the game. In fact, the rewards for those kinds of activities lag behind the rest of the economy by ~25%. As for missions vs. incursions, the average incursion-runner makes some 30+ù more raw ISK than the average mission-runner (but that's for all missions, not just L4s).
Where does this information come from about sanctums and havens being ~25% behind?
Not ragging on you, just interested.
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
34
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 13:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Pre incursions a plex was around 350 to 380 mill or so and doing missions would make you up to around 40 mill an hour reasonably. After incursions, 100 mill an hour is easy, the game is flooded with alot of isk and plex are around 500 mill or so.
So basically no, Incursions have made plex more expensive, so doing incursions is the way to go. This in turn will flood Eve with even more isk, probably making plex more expensive.. Ad infinitum.
Pre-Incursions I would not have though of you to be a complete moron. Now, one year after incursion release I am convinced otherwise. Help! Incursions made you an idiot!
Your logic is very badly flawed. And if you are doing 40 million isk per hour while doing missions, you are not easily making 100 million isk an hour in incursions, because in this case either you constantly wasting your time when doing missions instead of actually doing missions or you are still in a t1 ship or without t2 guns. Both flaws will significantly reduce your incursion income. T1 ships, even faction ships without t2 guns will not get fast into good fleets. And if you are a slacker, not only you will hurt your own income, you will waste the time of your whole fleet. Legendary are those, whose whiny voices raises after the second site and telling the commander that they need to pee. ;-) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4851
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 13:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:Where does this information come from about sanctums and havens being ~25 percent behind? This little analysis of the numbers CCP Diagoras has been posting, compared to the old day slice we were given back in 2010. In essence, every major faucet and sink has increased in volume by about a third since thenGǪ except bounty payouts (and mission rewards, to a lesser degree), which have remained nearly stable. Consequently, sanctums and havens and other big-bounty sources are about 25 percent behind where they should have been, had they followed the same growth rate.
It's not all that surprising, though, given the sanctum nerf and the introduction of incursions that has happened in the mean-time, so people have gone for other sources of income (in total, GÇ£PvE payoutsGÇ¥ GÇö bounties, mission rewards, incursion rewards GÇö have seen the same 33 percent increase since 2010, but almost all of it is from incursions, which seems to indicate that people are leaving other ISK-making activities to do those instead).
GǪnow, whether there is some causal relationship here (not to mention the direction of any such relationship) is up in the air: are we seeing a 33 percent increase in economic activity because of the boost incursions provide, or is the increase just a response to a general increase in activity (so people have to spend time raking in more ISK to stay in the same relative place, financially speaking). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
196
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 17:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tippia wrote:or is the increase just a response to a general increase in activity (so people have to spend time raking in more ISK to stay in the same relative place, financially speaking).
Interestingly, pcu numbers are below last years all time high so maybe not unless we have had a huge inflation (CSM minutes said no, stable at about 1%/month) or a dramatic general increase in wealth (not likely).
My bet is this is a selective economic growth isolated to the incursion farming gold diggers of EvE. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4852
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 17:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Interestingly, pcu numbers are below last years all time high so maybe not unless we have had a huge inflation (CSM minutes said no, stable at about 1%/month) or a dramatic general increase in wealth (not likely).
My bet is this is a selective economic growth isolated to the incursion farming gold diggers of EvE. WeeellGǪ as far as player numbers go, the comparison point was in mid-October 2010, and we're at about the same population now as we were then. The growth (and peak) happened during and just after the spread-out Incursion releases. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3094
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 17:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
wait incursions have loot?
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nate555
GODHC INTERSTELLAR FLEET
42
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 18:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bliz missions. It's very odd but it does get more isk in then trying to kill everything. Killing everything is better when you have a cost effective ship that can kill fast. Like say a Mach or golem. I think salvage is going up as well. |
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Syme
Umbra Scientia Muneris Shadow Directive
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 18:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
As a very casual non-voice using player I can only stare at incursion runners with extreme jealousy.
However it has had an effect on CCP as I have un-subbed my alt (cash paying) account as isk inflation has made him not worth keeping. |
nate555
GODHC INTERSTELLAR FLEET
42
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Syme wrote:As a very casual non-voice using player I can only stare at incursion runners with extreme jealousy.
However it has had an effect on CCP as I have un-subbed my alt (cash paying) account as isk inflation has made him not worth keeping. I'm kind of loving the inflation. Can sell plex for lots of isk. Me like, But it does need to be fixed |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
632
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.
Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy.
It is almost comical how people just try to make incursions a scapegoat and not realize that PLEX had been far too low for far too long. It has gone from subbing one account with PLEX to push back a big yearly payment to plexing your main and alts. This is leading to more alts. More activity and thus higher prices for PLEX.
Then you've got bittervets returning with Crucible. People who had a large amount of isk and used it to PLEX up 6 months or a year. Higher demand. And will still grow as more return over the summer.
Nuking incursions wont help anything. If any small drop in PLEX prices happens as people move back into LVL4s. It will be quickly used to fund reactivation of nullsec alts to farm bounties in their NAPed up territory. And the price will come back except now at the benefit of nullsec overlords again. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4854
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.
Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy. Less than three times higher, actually. The problem is that it's three times less even the there are much much fewer people generating it. The average incursion runner makes something along the lines of 170M ISK a day. The average mission runner makes 5MGǪ that is why people make incursions a scapegoat: because of the scale of the influx they cause in relation to how few are doing them. The only saving grace of incursions is that there is something of an upper bound to how many can do them at once GÇö if there weren't they'd be disastrous. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
42
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 20:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation. Right, there is none and i presume since CCP won't bother releasing their statistical data, so we just have to speculate on the matter. The thing is, it's simple logic really, if you introduce something to a system, say, a machine that poops out $10mil cash everyday and gives it away to people, what do you think will happen to the prices on the market?
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy.. On a larger scheme, probably yes, but then again, only CCP can answer that. But seeing how much people get from incursions in comparison to what they get from single client ratting, i doubt this is possible.
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:It is almost comical how people just try to make incursions a scapegoat and not realize that PLEX had been far too low for far too long. It has gone from subbing one account with PLEX to push back a big yearly payment to plexing your main and alts. This is leading to more alts. More activity and thus higher prices for PLEX. Most people don't like inflation, especially those who depends on liquid isk and not assets. So it's logical if they blame something which in particular the most probable cause to the issue at hand. Doesn't necessarily have to be the right 'scapegoat'.
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Nuking incursions wont help anything. If any small drop in PLEX prices happens as people move back into LVL4s. It will be quickly used to fund reactivation of nullsec alts to farm bounties in their NAPed up territory. And the price will come back except now at the benefit of nullsec overlords again. One thing i'm sure of is that CCP won't 'nuke' incursions, unless there are a massive, massive rejection from the Eve Community, that won't happen, even if there are, say huge demo to remove incursions, CCP would probably only change the mechanics somehow (as they're doing right now). |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4854
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 20:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote:Right, there is none and i presume since CCP won't bother releasing their statistical data, so we just have to speculate on the matter. They have released the data: it's 1% per month.
Quote:On a larger scheme, probably yes, but then again, only CCP can answer that. GǪand again, they have: bounties inject 896 billion ISK / day; incursions inject 302 billion.
Quote:One thing i'm sure of is that CCP won't 'nuke' incursions It sounds like they're thinking about scaling back the rewards to better match the difficulty and risksGǪ whether that counts as GǣnukingGǥ or not has yet to be seen.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
42
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 20:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tippia wrote:They have released the data: it's 1% per month. It sounds like they're thinking about scaling back the rewards to better match the difficulty and risksGǪ whether that counts as GǣnukingGǥ or not has yet to be seen.
Ah, thanks :) But that's not what i meant, in a sense. It's the psychological impact of what incursions (suspected) to have done to the market. Maybe Incursions in a whole statistically don't have major impact on the market, but psychologically, it does. Let's just say, for instance, i can buy a plex if i did a couple of hours of incursions which practically has minimal risk (i'm talking about one day, not continous shiney-ship incursions), i can also do the same via ratting, but at much much longer time to spend, say 2-3 days. A lot of people know this and that should drive the plex prices to some extent.
Tippia wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.
Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy. Less than three times higher, actually. The problem is that it's three times less even the there are much much fewer people generating it. The average incursion runner makes something along the lines of 170M ISK a day. The average mission runner makes 5MGǪ that is why people make incursions a scapegoat: because of the scale of the influx they cause in relation to how few are doing them. The only saving grace of incursions is that there is something of an upper bound to how many can do them at once GÇö if there weren't they'd be disastrous. Thanks for pointing this out, a lot of people seems to have missed this particular aspect for some reason. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
34
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 20:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote:Tippia wrote:They have released the data: it's 1% per month. It sounds like they're thinking about scaling back the rewards to better match the difficulty and risksGǪ whether that counts as GǣnukingGǥ or not has yet to be seen.
Ah, thanks :) But that's not what i meant, in a sense. It's the psychological impact of what incursions (suspected) to have done to the market. Tippia wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.
Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy. Less than three times higher, actually. The problem is that it's three times less even the there are much much fewer people generating it. The average incursion runner makes something along the lines of 170M ISK a day. The average mission runner makes 5MGǪ that is why people make incursions a scapegoat: because of the scale of the influx they cause in relation to how few are doing them. The only saving grace of incursions is that there is something of an upper bound to how many can do them at once GÇö if there weren't they'd be disastrous. Thanks for pointing this out, a lot of people seems to have missed this particular aspect for some reason.
Maybe because it is ignoring what the average incursion runner would made instead per day? Its not like that those incursion bears would be not else mission bears or anomaly bears. 5 Million per day sounds like level 2 missions, you know? ;-) |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
42
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 20:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Sarah Schneider wrote:Tippia wrote:They have released the data: it's 1% per month. It sounds like they're thinking about scaling back the rewards to better match the difficulty and risksGǪ whether that counts as GǣnukingGǥ or not has yet to be seen.
Ah, thanks :) But that's not what i meant, in a sense. It's the psychological impact of what incursions (suspected) to have done to the market. Tippia wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.
Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy. Less than three times higher, actually. The problem is that it's three times less even the there are much much fewer people generating it. The average incursion runner makes something along the lines of 170M ISK a day. The average mission runner makes 5MGǪ that is why people make incursions a scapegoat: because of the scale of the influx they cause in relation to how few are doing them. The only saving grace of incursions is that there is something of an upper bound to how many can do them at once GÇö if there weren't they'd be disastrous. Thanks for pointing this out, a lot of people seems to have missed this particular aspect for some reason. Maybe because it is ignoring what the average incursion runner would made instead per day? Its not like that those incursion bears would be not else mission bears or anomaly bears. 5 Million per day sounds like level 2 missions, you know? ;-) Yes, that's probably one of the reason why.
Just for the record, i used to make 400-500mil in average running hisec incursions, so in my opinion 170m sounds more like the bottom margin for incursion runners income and 5 million per day does sound like L2 missions. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4854
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 20:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Maybe because it is ignoring what the average incursion runner would made instead per day? Its not like that those incursion bears would be not else mission bears or anomaly bears. 5 Million per day sounds like level 2 missions, you know? ;-) Strictly speaking, that 5M number is what the average mission runner (across all levels and all types of missions) would make at most, if we ignore the other sources of bounty income. In reality, it's definitely less than that.
And yes, it would be nice if we had a more compartmentalised number for only L4 combat missions and the number of people running them, but you go with what you have. As a result, the average incursion runner makes at least 30+ù more than the average mission runner.
On a somewhat related note, it's interesting to note that w-space is actually indirectly the third largest source of newly-minted ISK. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
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