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GoGo Yubari
PAK
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Posted - 2008.01.06 14:57:00 -
[1]
Our rules of engagement are clear. We will only attack known pirates and criminals, or those who for one reason or another choose to engage us. This extends to any activity that happens out in 0.0 territory where we will be NRDS. We do not do politics. We are not interested in territorial strife, but we will respect it by staying away from it.
More to the point, we will also be operating in Providence, where we consider CVA and their allies to be the reigning power. Consequently we will appropiately restrict our targets to those which we can find on their KOS list, but we will not simply copy the list and become an instrument of CVA policy. I know this is a regular accusation by certain parties concerning those who operate in Providence and who are friendly to the local powers. It's quite simple. In Providence we will engage those who are both our targets and authorized by the resident powers.
We understand that SF and U'K are political enemies of CVA. We do not consider the aforementioned as valid targets. Should you choose to agress us simply based on our acceptance of CVA (and allied) sovereignty, you're of course free to make that call, but I'd like to know of your stance before we run into each other in local space.
I put this on a public forum not because this is the way I want to conduct diplomacy, but because this also serves as a public announcement of our rules of engagement concerning frontier territories. Any other interested parties as well, in reference to either Providence or other 0.0 regions, are free to contact myself for a clarification of current standings.
PAK is recruiting! |
zoolkhan
Minmatar
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.06 16:21:00 -
[2]
what is the purpouse of your stay in providence / slaver land?
A)trading, mining, ratting, docking, refining in slaver space
which equals to support slavery since all stations are owned by
slavers and their support.
b) aid the freedom fighters in their battle against oppression
- please file your answer to karn mithralia; and standings will be set, or not set.
(you should have done this beforehands,
since you didnt perhaps you just wanted to prepare an excuse to fight us?
time will tell.)
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.06 16:23:00 -
[3]
According to Star Fraction ROE you will be treated as neutrals as long as you do not commit acts of aggression against Star Fraction vessels. Since we are an NRDS neutral-respecting entity this means we will not be engaging your ships regardless of your decision to acknowledge the corrupt and venal CVA "authority" in Providence in the terms of your wider "license".
Star Fraction encourages independent thought and personal aspiration and however much we disagree with your choice to constrain yourself to hunting only "CVA approved" pirate targets in Providence that is your choice to make. As indeed will the moment of conscience-searching choice inevitable when you find the first "CVA denied" pirate target in your sights and need to stay your trigger lest you end up on the wrong end of a standings enclosure purge for the "crime" of shooting one of their "friends in need".
Still these are your choices, discoveries and mistakes to make GoGo Yubari. As a neutral entity you have freedom to define your own policy and Star Fraction will treat you solely on your specific actions towards our ships and pilots.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
GoGo Yubari
PAK
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Posted - 2008.01.06 16:55:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: zoolkhan
(you should have done this beforehands,
since you didnt perhaps you just wanted to prepare an excuse to fight us?
time will tell.)
I'm just answering this point of your's here. As some of you may be aware, PAK has recently had a change in its focus as per this announcement. Before we made this decision, our rules of engagement have been different and we perhaps would not have needed an excuse to fight you. At this date, however, we aren't specifically looking to find an excuse and are currently totally content in treating you as friendlies. Should you choose to change this disposition, the choice will have been up to you.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As indeed will the moment of conscience-searching choice inevitable when you find the first "CVA denied" pirate target in your sights and need to stay your trigger lest you end up on the wrong end of a standings enclosure purge for the "crime" of shooting one of their "friends in need".
There will be very little conscience-searching involved, only simple practicality.
PAK is recruiting! |
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.01.06 21:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: zoolkhan
A)trading, mining, ratting, docking, refining in slaver space
which equals to support slavery since all stations are owned by
slavers and their support.
Am I to take it from this that you consider anyone operating within CVA, Amarr, Khanid, or Ammatar space to be enemies of the Ushra'Khan?
That strikes me as a somewhat extremist viewpoint.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Naughty People
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.01.06 22:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
That strikes me as a somewhat extremist viewpoint.
Have you never heard of Ushra'Khan before?
_
Now Hiring Pirates, Anarchists and Terrorists. |
Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.01.06 22:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
Have you never heard of Ushra'Khan before?
No, I've been living under a rock the past few years.
Please, try to refrain yourself to sensible responses. Theres a big difference between being anti-slaver and anti.. well, just about everyone. If UK take this step they are setting a dangerous precedent.
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MirrorGod
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2008.01.06 23:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
. Theres a big difference between being anti-slaver and anti.. well, just about everyone.
Why not just be both? It's more fun that way 
------------------------------------------
I see all the Young Believers, your target audience...
And I see all the Old Deceivers...We all just sing their song! |
Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.06 23:22:00 -
[9]
The policy you have stated can only be interpretted as tacit support for a regime that seeks to make a space that was once a beacon of freedom and security for those seeking to escape the oppression of the Amarrian Empire into a wasteland powered by the blood of slaves. This is not about territorial claims, it is about whether our people will coninue to be abused for the enrichment of the Golden Horde. If you support CVA in securing their regime in that space, then you are aiding and abetting them their crimes against humanity, and should be unsurprised at the results. If you wish not to be identified as a friend of slavers, then I urge you to reconsider your plans.
Fly free.
--
Becq Starforged
proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services
At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today! |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.06 23:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Am I to take it from this that you consider anyone operating within CVA, Amarr, Khanid, or Ammatar space to be enemies of the Ushra'Khan?
When they need to display resolve, yes.
When they need to garner sympathy, no.
Depends on the context of the conversation.
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Reash
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.06 23:44:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Reash on 06/01/2008 23:44:52
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As indeed will the moment of conscience-searching choice inevitable when you find the first "CVA denied" pirate target in your sights and need to stay your trigger lest you end up on the wrong end of a standings enclosure purge for the "crime" of shooting one of their "friends in need".
In fact, all neutral entities in CVA space are entitled to defend themselves from acts of piracy, should you encounter such activity please defend yourself first and then report it to a CVA representitive who shall ensure law abiding citizens are informed for their own safety.
-----------------------
Auctoritan Syndicate Director
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Karn Mithralia
Minmatar
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.07 00:27:00 -
[12]
GoGo, U'K already have PAK marked red, I have sent you details of why in private comms.
To my mind the idea that pirates exist as clearly marked entities in 0.0 is vague and tenuous at best. Good luck distinguishing one pilot from the next with that as a credible basis of differentiation.
Daelin, at risk of flogging a dead slaver hound, U'K operate NRDS everywhere in the known stars except for Providence and Catch. Those 2 regions are free-fire zones for our pilots as a matter of strategic policy.
Our ROE forbids piracy, and pilots flying under our colors found doing so at the very least are required to reimburse the offended party. Any such claims should be brought to my attention.
-----------------------------------------
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Arelius Sarum
Amarr
Exodus.
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Posted - 2008.01.07 00:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Karn Mithralia
GoGo, U'K already have PAK marked red, I have sent you details of why in private comms.
To my mind the idea that pirates exist as clearly marked entities in 0.0 is vague and tenuous at best. Good luck distinguishing one pilot from the next with that as a credible basis of differentiation.
Daelin, at risk of flogging a dead slaver hound, U'K operate NRDS everywhere in the known stars except for Providence and Catch. Those 2 regions are free-fire zones for our pilots as a matter of strategic policy.
Our ROE forbids piracy, and pilots flying under our colors found doing so at the very least are required to reimburse the offended party. Any such claims should be brought to my attention.
You say you forbid piracy, but you received support from pirates on multiple occasions. If I say I am against slavery, but I just go along for the ride on slaver raids all the time, they will surely believe me.
Per ardua ad astra - Through Adversity, to the Stars |
Arelius Sarum
Amarr
Exodus.
|
Posted - 2008.01.07 00:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Reash
In fact, all neutral entities in CVA space are entitled to defend themselves from acts of piracy, should you encounter such activity please defend yourself first and then report it to a CVA representitive who shall ensure law abiding citizens are informed for their own safety.
You know, a few friends of mine had their ships destroyed by the CVA several months ago. They lost a navy issued Raven, Caracal and a Harbinger. No explanation was ever given by the CVA despite the fact that they were members of an anti-pirate corp. If such cases occur in the future, I suppose we are entitled to defend ourselves?
Per ardua ad astra - Through Adversity, to the Stars |
Occasus Vim
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.01.07 01:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Arelius Sarum
You say you forbid piracy, but you received support from pirates on multiple occasions. If I say I am against slavery, but I just go along for the ride on slaver raids all the time, they will surely believe me.
I think the Curatores will be the first to shoot down this fallacious, composition-by-association reasoning.
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Arelius Sarum
Amarr
Exodus.
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Posted - 2008.01.07 01:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Occasus Vim
I think the Curatores will be the first to shoot down this fallacious, composition-by-association reasoning.
No seriously I believe you are against piracy eventhough you fly with pirates, receive aid from pirates and fight alongside pirates.[/sarcasm]
Per ardua ad astra - Through Adversity, to the Stars |
Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.01.07 02:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Karn Mithralia
Daelin, at risk of flogging a dead slaver hound, U'K operate NRDS everywhere in the known stars except for Providence and Catch. Those 2 regions are free-fire zones for our pilots as a matter of strategic policy.
Our ROE forbids piracy, and pilots flying under our colors found doing so at the very least are required to reimburse the offended party. Any such claims should be brought to my attention.
Then why would you feel it necessary to threaten a group of pilots who are no more colluding with slavers than the average pod pilot who operates in or around Imperial territories?
Either what has been said stands in both cases or neither. Unless of course PAK is guilty of something beyond mere association in which case such accusations should be brought to light so that they can at least defend themselves.
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GoGo Yubari
PAK
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Posted - 2008.01.07 02:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Karn Mithralia
To my mind the idea that pirates exist as clearly marked entities in 0.0 is vague and tenuous at best. Good luck distinguishing one pilot from the next with that as a credible basis of differentiation.
It is difficult to talk about piracy out in 0.0, for sure. The term is typically somewhat misapplied. It's frontier space mostly consisting of a collection of robber-barons and capsuleer warlords. If you happen to be on the side of the local ruler who wishes to enforce an NBSI-type closed borders policy, then anyone making an incursion is the bad guy. If you don't agree with the local power, then they are bad the guy. This is in the realm of politics (perhaps real politik, but nonetheless) and we'll stay out of it where at all possible.
On the other hand, a member of a known pirate organization is a pirate where-ever they go, whether it's a shady club in Jita or the galactic frontier. It's really quite simple and we'll investigate claims of piracy where needed and supplement public opinion with our own experiences.
What is different about Providence is that it is not a regular 0.0 territory, but under the rule of regimes who operate a free space policy (albeit under the direction of their respective political affiliation). For the unassociated neutral party, however, it is open turf. This is vastly different from comparative regions and happens also to facilitate our work inside Providence. It is really not much different from operating in low-sec. These are also areas of free space, under very political rule. Yet, many capsuleers fly there, free from those regimes.
On that note, let me just say that if any other groups holding sovereignty out there wish to open their borders to us for our work, we'll hear it gladly and abide under their restrictions, as long as they are reasonable.
PAK is recruiting! |
Mortim
Minmatar
Madison Industrial Co.
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.07 03:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: GoGo Yubari
On that note, let me just say that if any other groups holding sovereignty out there wish to open their borders to us for our work, we'll hear it gladly and abide under their restrictions, as long as they are reasonable.
I believe a change of standings was made today on behalf of Sylph Alliance. We've an extensive list of people that are for some reason opposed to the wholesale of confectionary throughout the known systems.
NRDS rules of engagement and the capability to refrain from shooting up the locals or groups allied to Sylph are all we ask. In return, docking rights, office space and access to amenities are available to all neutrals now that severe hostilities have ceased. Furthermore as a resident, no matter how temporary in the area, any evidence of piracy in our space will be taken seriously, resulting in additional action on our behalf.
Complimentary currant buns are available to your pilots on docking. For more information on our standings, restrictions, or culinary offers, please contact either myself or Drakmor via private comms.
Mort
Renegade Baker
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zoolkhan
Minmatar
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.07 05:38:00 -
[20]
Edited by: zoolkhan on 07/01/2008 05:39:38
message scrambled
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Conlin
Gallente
Yiotul Fighters
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.07 08:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Arelius Sarum
Originally by: Occasus Vim
I think the Curatores will be the first to shoot down this fallacious, composition-by-association reasoning.
No seriously I believe you are against piracy eventhough you fly with pirates, receive aid from pirates and fight alongside pirates.[/sarcasm]
And CVA deny any help from pirates , against piracy , fly with pirates & recieve aid from pirates (sarcasm) 
We fight for freedom , they fight for isk , providence was a relative free area with a good economy when we had provi , now its a warzone in the hands of religious fanatics who use it for the sole purpose to supply their need for slavery .
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.07 10:43:00 -
[22]
I find it laughable to refer to the slave-filled wasteland of Providence as "free space". Clearly you define "free" quite differently than we do.
--
Becq Starforged
proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services
At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today! |
Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.07 13:53:00 -
[23]
Mr. Blackleaf, you seem to forget, that this average pod pilot colluding with slavers in Imperial territory is considered an enemy to our people as well. It doesn't matter whether you support slavery directly by enslaving our brothers or indirectly by strengthening those who do. To not be understood please consider that this doesn't mean that UK will open fire on anyone in Imperial space for obvious reasons. On details contact an UK official.
On a sidenote: There is no threat here. Our ROE apply to everyone, so it is only fair to explain them to PAK who specifically asked for them.
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.01.07 16:59:00 -
[24]
I'm forgetting nothing. I'm not privy to UK policy hence my curiosity.
As far as I can gather what you are saying is that in principle everyone who operates or has operated within Amarr, Ammatar, Khanid, or their associated capsuleer supporters territories is your enemy. However you pick and choose who you will actually attack based upon what exactly? How do the rest of us know we're not going to fall foul of your evidently rather flexible RoE?
You tell us you operate under NRDS and are not pirates.
Then tell us that almost anyone can be set red at anytime based on an overarching policy that makes nigh everyone your enemy.
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Spoon Thumb
Paladin Imperium
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Posted - 2008.01.07 18:12:00 -
[25]
Just make sure your KOS list is a subset of CVA's, then there will be no problem in CVA space
Khaldari
khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists
Recruiting |
Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.07 18:47:00 -
[26]
Ok, honestly, I am not the man to explain UK's philosophy. There are men better suited for this. But I'll give you an impression.
UK's single purpose of existence is the fight for our enslaved brothers. As it is the Amarr and some of their dogs enslaving them, naturally they are the ones we fight against. Unlike other Matari organisations we think any slaver has to be hit anywhere anytime and that includes anyone supporting them. We believe that by this we can show the slavers the price they have to pay for denying freedom to our brothers. In fact it is not different from ancient wars - you cannot claim to be neutral when you are helping the enemy.
Due to the ignorance of Concord regarding the fate of our brothers we cannot act accordingly in Empire space. So basically we concentrate on Providence and as it is an area entirely owned by slavers we assume anyone enterering is supporting slavery until stated otherwise. You are not set red, you will be warned and shot (which normally leads to aggressive actions taken by your alliance which then leads to them being set red). To avoid this you will have to openly state your intentions, denounce slavery and stop doing business with the slavers.
We don't judge you on your past as it is the future of our brothers we are fighting for. So what you have done back in time will only be of interest if you have a debt to pay to our people.
To be very clear (as some of the Amarr like fighting with propaganda over fighting in space): We are not pirates. Pirates shoot for greed and mostly shy away from a fair fight. We fight because we are in a war and we will not hesitate to sacrifice anything we have or anything we are for that struggle. There will be no peace in the universe until the crimes against our brothers end.
We come for our people.
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Kehmor
Caldari
PAK
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Posted - 2008.01.07 19:26:00 -
[27]
I am still failing to see how our motives clash with those of Ushra'khan. Our goal is to hinder and destroy those who would prey on neutral pilots for personal gain. CVA's war on ushra'khan is clearly over a political dispute. If ushra'khan were in control of space we would offer the same terms to them.
So unless U'K are supporting random acts of piracy I cannot see why they would wish to hinder us in our work, nor why they wish to throw away ships to our superior tactics and firepower. However so be it.
PAK is recruiting! |
Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.01.07 19:40:00 -
[28]
I'm aware of UK's goals, just because you don't recognize me does not mean I do not know you. I'm simply trying to refine my understanding of how extreme the UK's views are, it's risk assessment.
We seem to be approaching a point of understanding.
UK wishes it were free to kill any and all pilots who have business within territories where slavery is legal. The only thing holding them back is the superior firepower of CONCORD forces.
It appears that UK is unwilling to sacrifice security standing to uphold their goals otherwise this policy of killing those who associate with the enemy would stand in lo-sec.
It also appears the UK is unwilling to expend ISK on war-declarations to assault those
who support their enemies.
Again, the way things appear is that almost everyone is an enemy of UK, UK simply selects who they will and will not take up arms against from amongst a target list that includes almost everyone. Even the Federation and Republic have business dealings with the Empire and of course CONCORD itself is guilty by way of being partly run by Amarrians. It appears that you would have the Matari people at war with the entirety of civilized space in an effort to free your brothers, freedom at the price of extinction.
Thankfully while this seems to be the theory the practice is not all-out war. You do not follow your own philosophy. This leads to two questions.
What is it that makes PAK an agreeable target, and not State, Federation, and Republic capsuleer organizations who are clearly, by UK definition, supporters of the Empire?
Why are UK not camping the gates into and out of "slaver" space (or within their lo-security systems) destroying ships piloted by those with positive standing to the "slaver" factions?
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Saraith Narr
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.07 19:42:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Saraith Narr on 07/01/2008 19:43:26
Originally by: Kehmor
So unless U'K are supporting random acts of piracy I cannot see why they would wish to hinder us in our work, nor why they wish to throw away ships to our superior tactics and firepower. However so be it.
Politics has little to do with the Ushra'Khan and theyre cause. They are wild animals who hate the civilising aims of the Empire, and wish to continue theyre primitive existence of fighting and killing anything that passes theyre way.
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Kehmor
Caldari
PAK
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Posted - 2008.01.07 19:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Again, the way things appear is that almost everyone is an enemy of UK, UK simply selects who they will and will not take up arms against from amongst a target list that includes almost everyone. Even the Federation and Republic have business dealings with the Empire and of course CONCORD itself is guilty by way of being partly run by Amarrians. It appears that you would have the Matari people at war with the entirety of civilized space in an effort to free your brothers, freedom at the price of extinction.
border line piracy in my opinion
PAK is recruiting! |
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