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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.08 12:12:00 -
[1]
X-Large Shield booster... Why not a X-Large Shield Extender?
Also comparing... vs.
Shield Extenders to Armor plates
Micro Shield Extender I +94 hp 50mm Reinforced Steel Plates I +94 hp
Micro Shield Extender II +131 hp 50mm Reinforced Steel Plates II +131 hp
Small Shield Extender I +188 hp 100mm Reinforced Steel Plates I +188 hp
Small Shield Extender II +263 hp 100mm Reinforced Steel Plates II +263 hp
Moderate Shield Extender I ??? 200mm Reinforced Steel Plates I +375 hp
Moderate Shield Extender I ??? 200mm Reinforced Steel Plates II +528 hp
Medium Shield Extender I +750 hp 400mm Reinforced Steel Plates I +750 hp
Medium Shield Extender II +1050 hp 400mm Reinforced Steel Plates II +1053 hp
Large Shield Extender I +1875 hp 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates I +1500 hp
Large Shield Extender II +2625 hp 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II +2103 hp
X-large Shield Extender I ??? 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates I +3000 hp
X-large Shield Extender II ??? 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II +4200hp
Would be cool to see the addition of a Moderate Shield Extender I & II. As well as the addition of an X-Large Shield extender I & II.
. Dasfry, CEO Demios Corporation
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.08 12:15:00 -
[2]
Because would make passive shield tanks overpowered.
Armor tank is focused on HP shield tank on "repair". Simple as that (notice there is no XL armor repairer)
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.08 12:35:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Dasfry on 08/01/2008 12:37:07
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Because would make passive shield tanks overpowered.
Armor tank is focused on HP shield tank on "repair". Simple as that (notice there is no XL armor repairer)
Armor has certain advantages over shields. For example the combined resistances of shileds 60,40,20,0 = 120 where as the combined resistances of armor 60,10,25,35(+10) = 140 is sightly hirer. (the +10 is the ship race specific bonus)
Also T1 Shield Boosters get a 1 repair to 1 cap use. where as T1 Armor Repairs get a 1.5 repair to a 1 cap use.
example small shield booster I 20 cap use 20 shield boosted.
small armor repairer I 40 cap use 60 armor repaired.
. Dasfry, CEO Demios Corporation
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2008.01.08 12:37:00 -
[4]
Caldari get the X-Large shield booster to compensate for the 'inbalance' and thats the way it should be.
As already stated a X-large shield extender would make passive shield tanking overpowered.
however the sekund that amarr and gallente gets a X-Large armor rep the tables will be turned in favor of armor tank over shield tank. Currently shield tanking offers some pros that armor tank dont and the other way around.
I think CCP intended it to be like this m8.
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2008.01.08 12:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Dasfry Edited by: Dasfry on 08/01/2008 12:37:07
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Because would make passive shield tanks overpowered.
Armor tank is focused on HP shield tank on "repair". Simple as that (notice there is no XL armor repairer)
Armor has certain ...
Also T1 Shield Boosters get a 1 repair to 1 cap use. where as T1 Armor Repairs get a 1.5 repair to a 1 cap use.
...
But armor repaires at half the speed of shield. This means that you need less slots to do a effective active shield tank then you do for the armor tank. And that extra slot you are getting can be used for extra resistances
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.08 12:51:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nemtar Nataal
But armor repaires at half the speed of shield. This means that you need less slots to do a effective active shield tank then you do for the armor tank. And that extra slot you are getting can be used for extra resistances
Remeber med slots are also used for most pvp equipment. Warp scramblers, afterburners, MWDs, Cap boosters, sensor boosters and webifiers for example, giving an advantage to armor tankers, to be able to tank and hold down their targets. . Dasfry, CEO Demios Corporation
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.08 13:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dasfry
Originally by: Nemtar Nataal
But armor repaires at half the speed of shield. This means that you need less slots to do a effective active shield tank then you do for the armor tank. And that extra slot you are getting can be used for extra resistances
Remeber med slots are also used for most pvp equipment. Warp scramblers, afterburners, MWDs, Cap boosters, sensor boosters and webifiers for example, giving an advantage to armor tankers, to be able to tank and hold down their targets.
And low slots carry damage mods nano stuff and shield regenerate themselves. Shields and armor are balanced as of now.
The only thing WONG on my view is Caldari and minmatar have skewed bonuses. Minmatar are the ones that usually tank with shield extenders so THEy should have the resit bonus while caldari should have the shield boost bonus.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Gnord
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Posted - 2008.01.08 13:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Because would make passive shield tanks overpowered.
Armor tank is focused on HP shield tank on "repair". Simple as that (notice there is no XL armor repairer)
Disagree Slave set basically doubles armor hitpoints. Crystal set basically doubles booster repair ammount.
I sign the XL Extender idea. Just give it powergrid requirement so it can only be used on battleships (which can't use a passive tank anyway).
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.01.08 13:51:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Eleana Tomelac on 08/01/2008 13:52:24
Originally by: Dasfry
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Because would make passive shield tanks overpowered.
Armor tank is focused on HP shield tank on "repair". Simple as that (notice there is no XL armor repairer)
Armor has certain advantages over shields. For example the combined resistances of shileds 60,40,20,0 = 120 where as the combined resistances of armor 60,10,25,35(+10) = 140 is sightly hirer. (the +10 is the ship race specific bonus)
Also T1 Shield Boosters get a 1 repair to 1 cap use. where as T1 Armor Repairs get a 1.5 repair to a 1 cap use.
example small shield booster I 20 cap use 20 shield boosted.
small armor repairer I 40 cap use 60 armor repaired.
First, I would say that the sizes can't compare just like that. It's not because there's XL written on the shield booster that it is for capitals. There are just more sizes.
So, look, there are more plates sizes than extender sizes, but there are more shield booster sizes than armor repairer sizes : we don't want it to be all the same.
The passive shield tanking with XL shield extenders on any cruiser (worse : HAS or HIC) or BC would clearly allow for having much shield HP and many resistance amplifiers : even better tank (and I'll fly in a passive shield tanked ishtar because 5 lows and 5 meds would just be huge like that even with my crap shield skills).
For the repaired amount per cap point, there is one single thing I need to point you to : Dual T2 armor reps VS shield booster II + shield boost amp T2. (all level 5 skills) 2 LAR II : 1600 cap cost for 800 + (stack nerf 1)*800=~1488 for 800 = 1.86 armor per cap point in 11.25s 1 XL SB + SB amp : 360 cap for 816 boosted : 2.266 shield per cap in 5s
So, most people don't have shield skills at level 5, but the ratio is still excellent (over 2) without. There is no skill in armor reducing the cap cost of repairers. Comparing what is at the disadvantage of a module is easy. So, I made it just the other way, when compared this way, the shield boosting is soooo much better.
The drake turtle tanks may require all med and low slots, but they are better than most battleships tanks, adding an XL extender would make it at least 50% I think and also allow for battleship passive shield tanks (good ones, not the comparable ones to active, unequalled with anything else).
Just to conclude : You can kill a full slave set plated BS with a frigate while you can't scratch a passive XL extended tank with a battleship. This is the reason for no XL shield extender. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
DHG
North Siders Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.08 19:07:00 -
[10]
Edited by: DHG on 08/01/2008 19:07:24
Originally by: Gnord
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Because would make passive shield tanks overpowered.
Armor tank is focused on HP shield tank on "repair". Simple as that (notice there is no XL armor repairer)
Disagree Slave set basically doubles armor hitpoints. Crystal set basically doubles booster repair ammount.
I sign the XL Extender idea. Just give it powergrid requirement so it can only be used on battleships (which can't use a passive tank anyway).
You disagree while you tell us the same thing? He said: Armor = hp tank, you said: slaves increase armor hp He said: Shield = repair, you said: crystal increases repair
Anyway, if you get XL shield extenders, then I demand my XL armor reps.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.01.08 20:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
For the repaired amount per cap point, there is one single thing I need to point you to : Dual T2 armor reps VS shield booster II + shield boost amp T2. (all level 5 skills) 2 LAR II : 1600 cap cost for 800 + (stack nerf 1)*800=~1488 for 800 = 1.86 armor per cap point in 11.25s 1 XL SB + SB amp : 360 cap for 816 boosted : 2.266 shield per cap in 5s
There is no stacking penalty on multiple armor reps going at once. There is a stacking penalty on multiple bonuses to armor repair amount (i.e. Auxiliary Nano Pumps), however.
So 2x LAR II = 800 cap cost for 1600 armor repped, 2 armor per cap point. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
The Djego
Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.08 21:16:00 -
[12]
Edited by: The Djego on 08/01/2008 21:19:08 2 Large Armor Reppers take more cap as 1 XL Booster + Amp for the HP/Cap balance. Also T2 Invus grand 30%, EANM II only 20(24 on a general Player). Also the Shild Tanker got a passive Recharge to help him Tanking, the Armortanker did not. Armor Tanks need bigger Extenders because the Reppers work slower and they are tend to use the Armor as a buffer in PVP. Shild Boosters work faster and are stronger in general because of the Effect of Powerdiagnostics. Also Shild Tankers got a advantage in passive Tank, Speed or Damage over Armortanks in compensation to her used Meds for Tank.
The real reason there is no XL Extender because it would overpower Passivetanks. XL Boosters + Amps can be far more substanable, especialy on a Faction Level than Large Reppers so fair Deal.
As said before.
Shildtank -> substainably aktive Shildtank -> buffer\regen Passive Armortank -> High Resists + Reppers substainalby aktive Armortank -> passive pure buffer ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.04 12:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Because would make passive shield tanks overpowered.
Armor tank is focused on HP shield tank on "repair". Simple as that (notice there is no XL armor repairer)
However that imbalance is allready there... it's easy to stack a battlecruiser with a maximum HP passive shield tank making that fit overpowered (see myrmidon and drake). Yet fitting a similar fit to a battleship gives you nothing over the BC other then increased dps; allthough dps in the myrm fit below isnt too shabby either at 422 whilst perma tanking 861 dps with 33/33/33 explosive/kinetic/thermal damage distribution.
Example Myrmidon fit: [Myrmidon, 21677] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II
200mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge M 200mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge M 200mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge M 200mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge M 200mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge M 200mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge M
Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Purger I
Ogre II x1 Ogre II x1 Ogre II x1 Berserker II x1 Berserker II x1 Berserker II x1 - - -
Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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Rudarstilski
Alija Sirotanovich Mining Ops
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Posted - 2008.04.04 22:13:00 -
[14]
Shields suck to hell and back which is one of the reasons why caldari suck from hell and back. No one except caldari nearly ever tries to shield tank and even caldari ships with enough lows try to pass on as armor tankers. If that weren't enough 2 out of 3 other races specialize in em damage.
Caldari are dependent on shields so I guess their ships would be less bulky and more agile? Wrong, even the amarr are nimble as little birds compared to caldari.
Also, not one caldari ship tanks remotely as good as a random races' tanking ship.
Caldari are the most nerfed and most highly specialized race in eve. The only thing caldari don't suck at are pve and jamming. All other races have a decent ship for every role, but not caldari.
The shield tanks suck and need serious help.
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Rudarstilski
Alija Sirotanovich Mining Ops
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Posted - 2008.04.04 22:17:00 -
[15]
PS go play with eft, see will you get a better tank with armor or shields on a raven, include implants too.
If that weren't enough, since shields suck so much and no one except caldari use them you can't depend on other people RRing you if you tank shields and tanking gang modules usually go in the armor tanking direction.
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Tarron Sarek
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Posted - 2008.04.05 00:02:00 -
[16]
That's a pile of generalised rubbish. At least try to be impartial.
PvE is a big big big part of the game, even though EVE is centered around PvP. There are probably more players PvE'ing than players PvP'ing at any given time. And it's where most of the ISKies come from. It is not just PvE. Many players would be happy if their choice of ships were as uber in mission running as Drakes and Ravens. That's why there are so many people flying Caldari. And then they want the same effectiveness in PvP? That's not balance, at all.
___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like 'nerf'
Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam |
Gamesguy
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Posted - 2008.04.05 02:33:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rudarstilski Shields suck to hell and back which is one of the reasons why caldari suck from hell and back. No one except caldari nearly ever tries to shield tank and even caldari ships with enough lows try to pass on as armor tankers. If that weren't enough 2 out of 3 other races specialize in em damage.
Caldari are dependent on shields so I guess their ships would be less bulky and more agile? Wrong, even the amarr are nimble as little birds compared to caldari.
Also, not one caldari ship tanks remotely as good as a random races' tanking ship.
Caldari are the most nerfed and most highly specialized race in eve. The only thing caldari don't suck at are pve and jamming. All other races have a decent ship for every role, but not caldari.
The shield tanks suck and need serious help.
Umm what? Drake=best BC tank, vulture=best CS tank. Rokh can be fit to have just as hard a tank as an abaddon.
Shield tanking doesn't suck, see all the buffer and active tanked t2 shield tankers: NH, vulture, cerb, sleipnir, claymore, vaga, jag, sabre, etc.
Caldari is one of the better races for pvp.
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Galcray
Sacred Templars DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.04.05 03:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Because would make passive shield tanks overpowered.
I lol'ed
as if they arent already? a passive drake tanking 900+ dps makes my head 'splode _____________
I have ridden the mighty moon worm. |
Readmymind
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Posted - 2008.04.05 05:02:00 -
[19]
Ridiculous
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.04.05 12:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Because would make passive shield tanks overpowered.
Armor tank is focused on HP shield tank on "repair". Simple as that (notice there is no XL armor repairer)
the first statement is correct.
the second, ehh armor is always made for dual tanking and does just as good a job with this as the X-L booster, so this is not correct, it is just a fancy name. I declare war on stupidity |
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Rudarstilski
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Posted - 2008.04.05 13:07:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Rudarstilski on 05/04/2008 13:12:01
Originally by: Gamesguy Umm what? Drake=best BC tank, vulture=best CS tank. Rokh can be fit to have just as hard a tank as an abaddon.
Shield tanking doesn't suck, see all the buffer and active tanked t2 shield tankers: NH, vulture, cerb, sleipnir, claymore, vaga, jag, sabre, etc.
Caldari is one of the better races for pvp.
Caldari is better for pvp than who exactly?
Unlike Amarr, they can't tank, they suck at sniping due to poor dps of rails, can't hit anything going fast, they can't solo and they can't speedtank. Unlike Gallente, caldari can't tank, they seriously suck on dps, can't solo, can't hit anything going fast and can't speedtank. Unlike Minmatar, caldari can't tank, can't snipe, can't speedtank, can't hit anything going fast and can't go solo.
Heck, even caldari caps suck at shooting other SBing caps and POS guns due to their small sig radius.
Unlike Amarr, Gallente and Minnie, Caldari can really farm isk and jamm. Kinda a disappointment for a caldari pilot to find after 4 months of playing that it's really all you'll ever do unless you start cross training soon.
Rokh sucks in it's role as a sniper - has a range of a geddon but half the dps, I have seen plenty armor tanking abaddons, no shield tanking rokhs (some tanking scorps though), drake tanks up to a point but can't sustain the dps of almost any single dps ship in game and compensates that by having no dps of it's own.
If that wasn't enough, since caldari are only suckers truly dependent on shield tanking they can't share the benefits of most gang modules and remote repping. Also, afaik there are plenty implants that boost this or that regarding to speed tanking and armor tanking but almost nothing that boosts shield tanking.
And you can't possibly be serious to call cerberus, sabre, jag and vaga shield tankers? They are not tankers, if thats what you mean cerberus is a "sensor damping tanker" and vagas are speed tankers that have smarter things to put on lows.
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