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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:25:00 -
[1]
Trying to get some discourse going on ECM before the general whine on the EVE-O forums moves from nanoships to ECM. Not calling for a nerf of it either, but instead to look at the counter.
Sensor Dampeners are effectively countered by Sensor Boosters, which have a good use out of just countering them.
Tracking Disruptors are countered by Tracking Computers, although not too effectively, but they still have an all situational use just like Sensor Boosters.
ECCM does a very poor job of countering ECM and a full rack of them still leaves a specialized ECM ship a very good collective chance across all ECM to jam you. Furthuremore, ECCM provide no useful bonuses outside of 'countering' ECM unlike Sensor Dampeners and Tracking Computers.
Their effectiveness as either a counter or useful module should be improved fairly dramatically to make them a viable module to use in a midslot. Some ideas were simply increasing the amount of sensor strength provided percentage wise, or perhaps giving it another attribute such as lowering signature radius and having it utilize scripts.
Thoughts or suggestions on the matter?
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:33:00 -
[2]
ECCM does offer one benefit aside from countering ECM.
It makes you harder to scan down.
A cloaking device obviously works better, but if you want to be harder to find while uncloaked it could be of some benefit. Covert Cyno ship maybe? -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
velmistr Ecco
Caldari InNova Tech Inc Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:33:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
ECCM does a very poor job of countering ECM and a full rack of them still leaves a specialized ECM ship a very good collective chance across all ECM to jam you. Furthuremore, ECCM provide no useful bonuses outside of 'countering' ECM unlike Sensor Dampeners and Tracking Computers.
I have no idea what does full rack of eccm modules, but single eccm module nearly doubles your sensor strength so effectively lowers chance of successfull jamming to 50% of original value. It seems ok to me.
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Warrio
Mining Bytes Inc. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:52:00 -
[4]
I would say that a full rack of ECCM would afford you the sensor strength of a small moon.
Sig removed due to being too freaking awsome. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Deckard Cain |
Kehmor
Caldari PAK
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:01:00 -
[5]
eccm more or less effectively makes you twice as hard to jam. So say you need two jammers to reliably jam a battleship. You use one med slot and suddenly need 4 ecm jammers to reliably jam you. Seeems alright to me, a regular addition to any of my ships with a spare med slot (not many)
PAK is recruiting! |
M00dy
Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:20:00 -
[6]
I'd say that other mods would be more usefull.
RATatatatatat - Moody
Killed In Action The Crimson Federation |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:23:00 -
[7]
Furthermore ECM is chance based in he first place anyway - and those modules increasing the strength of a ship with 96% really pays off... you might not be immune but a ship really have to dedicate itself to ECM against such a ship.
Pinky - I'm a nice guy!!
But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored... |
Nairova Intaku
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:27:00 -
[8]
Yesterday the full extent of the damps nerf hit me when my ECCM'd hyperion was permajammed by a falcon, and then I thought that even if I had damps...they'd have been useless
boost damps nerf ecm!
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:28:00 -
[9]
I think ccp will boost tracking computers instead. It will be inline with the tracking disruptor nerf. They'll never touch ecm or eccm methinks. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:34:00 -
[10]
Well, ECCM does counter ECM, but since its different than other types of EWAR the large number of jamming tries you can get still essentially guarantees a jam.
For example, an Arazu/Lachesis with 3-4 damps cannot reasonably dampen a ship with a sensor booster due to stacking nerfs.
A jamming ship has a very high chance of jamming most ships. ECCM work very well versus a single ECM, but unlike other EWAR the collective jamming power of all the ECM modules such ships can carry still guarantee a jam statistically since there is no penalty between using 1 on a target or 7.
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:38:00 -
[11]
But those ECM ships will most likely have a very ineffective or nonexisting tank... If you are alone ofcourse you'll have trouble - I'm a nice guy!!
But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored... |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:43:00 -
[12]
Also add that ecm is the only thing that is attacking the weakpoints of marauders. If yer not caldari mr marauder can screw you over. gg ccp. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:57:00 -
[13]
Quote: ECCM does a very poor job of countering ECM and a full rack of them still leaves a specialized ECM ship a very good collective chance across all ECM to jam you. Furthuremore, ECCM provide no useful bonuses outside of 'countering' ECM unlike Sensor Dampeners and Tracking Computers.
ECCM does a great job of countering ECM: a single module makes you suddenly twice as hard to jam.
As for not doing anything besides countering ECM, that's because of the hit or miss nature of ECM. If ECM modules don't jam you, you experience no ill effect whatsoever and have completely nullified all his ECM modules on you.
It's not like remote sensor dampeners which always reduced both your lock range and lock speed. RSD's always hurt you, so therefore the counter to RSD's always helps you. ECM only sometimes hurts you, so therefore the counter to ECCM only sometimes helps you.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 19:10:00 -
[14]
It's pretty obvious the op has never used an ECM ship. ECCM doing a poor job? Are you serious?
It's like having a module that inceases the enemies chance of missing their weapons by 100%. So it effectively halfs their dps regardless of damage type.
If fact, that's exactly what it does. Each ECCM you add makes you twice as hard to jam, effectively making the target waste its time.
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.11 19:56:00 -
[15]
The point is ECCM offers no benefits aside from countering ECM, unlike sensor boosters or tracking comps. Being harder to probe is near useless.
Now if ECCM did something else in addition... like decreasing sig radius, it would be a more attractive module.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:18:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ulstan on 11/01/2008 20:19:45
Quote: The point is ECCM offers no benefits aside from countering ECM, unlike sensor boosters or tracking comps.
Because ECM offers no benefits unless it jams the target. RSDs always hurt you, so therefore the RSD counter always helps you. ECM only sometimes hurts you, therefore ECCM only sometimes helps you.
If a guy using a RSD hits you, and you have the counter module equipped, you are still worse off than you would have been had he not used the RSD.
If a guy ECM's you, and you have the counter module equipped and the jam fails, his rack of ECM's directed at you had no effect whatsoever.
You can make every single one of his ECM's half as powerful by equipping a single ECCM and that's not enough for you?
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Mo Steel
Caldari Sanguis vix Dignatio
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Warrio I would say that a full rack of ECCM would afford you the sensor strength of a small moon.
That's no moon. -----
Want a sig made? Eve-Mail me, signatures made for 5 million isk each. |
Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:35:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 11/01/2008 20:45:49
Quote: Being harder to probe is near useless.
I've been away for a long time, so explain this: ECCMs make you harder to be probed out? How?
Quote: You can make every single one of his ECM's half as powerful by equipping a single ECCM and that's not enough for you?
You can also equip an entire rack of warp core stabs to avoid being scrambled by focus fire warp disruptors, but you sacrafice your entire tank. The logical thing is: If you don't want to fight, fit WCS and suck up the penalties. The illogical thing is: If you want to fight but are not allowed to, fit an entire ECCM rack and suck up losing a shield tank, speed enhancements, eletronic enhancements, and similar.
You can't PvP with a full rack of ECCMs. You can't PvE with a full rack of ECMs. The difference between a full rack of WCS and a full rack of ECCMs is that the person with full WCS doesn't want to fight, but the person with a full rack of ECCM wants to.. but sacraficed far too much of their ship just to work around a singular tactic. ---------
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:41:00 -
[19]
Your chance of being probed out is, among other factors, proportional to your signature radius and inversely proportional to your sensor strength. Therefore, ECCM modules make you harder to scan down.
Like I said, this has limited usefulness, but it's there. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Corstaad
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:54:00 -
[20]
ECM isn't a problem,its camping the same spot for days with the same ship. Your just asking to get run over by a gang setup to beat your camp.
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Malena
Shiva
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Posted - 2008.01.11 21:04:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Malena on 11/01/2008 21:05:28
Originally by: Bronson Hughes Your chance of being probed out is, among other factors, proportional to your signature radius and inversely proportional to your sensor strength. Therefore, ECCM modules make you harder to scan down.
Like I said, this has limited usefulness, but it's there.
This is news to me...is it an undocumented bonus? I have never seen a sig radius reduction when fitting ECCM, but then, I wasn't looking for it when checking stats. (I will now though) And just checked the item database to make sure I wasn't crazy...if there is a sig radius reduction, then it is undocumented, because it certainly isn't listed where I could see it.
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2008.01.11 21:06:00 -
[22]
The only problem with ECM right now is how few skills you need to use it. Any noob can train 1 or 2 levels of Electronic Warfare, jump into a Blackbird, and be far more effective in a gang than a noob in basically anything else.
If you're talking about high-SP characters in T2 jamming ships like the Falcon, there is no problem. You might be able to jam 2 or 3 ships, but you have no tank whatsoever and can't do any damage. If you miss one jam cycle you're running away or dead. Your ship will often cost more after insurance than the 3 people you're jamming, and you're the first target in any engagement.
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Kaiji Vincente
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Posted - 2008.01.11 21:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes ECCM does offer one benefit aside from countering ECM.
It makes you harder to scan down.
A cloaking device obviously works better, but if you want to be harder to find while uncloaked it could be of some benefit. Covert Cyno ship maybe?
It also seems to help in finding cosmic anomaly encounters with the onboard (ctrl-F11) scanner. A small and very specalized benifit, but tangible none the less.
One thing that puzzles me is why mods like ECCM - Omni I exist. An 80% boost to all sensor types seems no better than fitting racial ECCM, all ships have zero sensor strength in three catagories.
Originally by: Malka Badi'a I've been away for a long time, so explain this: ECCMs make you harder to be probed out? How?
Sucessfuly finding someone inside a mission deadspace is partially governed by the signature radius/sensor strength ratio their ship(s). There's an excellent probing guide on the forums that covers the subject in some detail here.
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.11 21:08:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 11/01/2008 21:09:37
Originally by: Malena
This is news to me...is it an undocumented bonus? I have never seen a sig radius reduction when fitting ECCM, but then, I wasn't looking for it when checking stats. (I will now though) And just checked the item database to make sure I wasn't crazy...if there is a sig radius reduction, then it is undocumented, because it certainly isn't listed where I could see it.
You misunderstood me. Signature radius and sensor strength both effect the liklyhood you getting probed. High sensor strength does not directly change your signature radius. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.11 22:45:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 11/01/2008 22:46:20 Remove ECCM, add a sensor strength script for sensor boosters and be done with it!
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Tha Pusher
III ELEMENTS VENOM Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 22:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Malena Edited by: Malena on 11/01/2008 21:05:28
Originally by: Bronson Hughes Your chance of being probed out is, among other factors, proportional to your signature radius and inversely proportional to your sensor strength. Therefore, ECCM modules make you harder to scan down.
Like I said, this has limited usefulness, but it's there.
This is news to me...is it an undocumented bonus? I have never seen a sig radius reduction when fitting ECCM, but then, I wasn't looking for it when checking stats. (I will now though) And just checked the item database to make sure I wasn't crazy...if there is a sig radius reduction, then it is undocumented, because it certainly isn't listed where I could see it.
hes just mentioning the two factors involved in scanning some1 out, and that the ECCM effects one of those two.
EVE!! It's like a party in your mouth, and everyone's throwing up
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 23:01:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 11/01/2008 23:02:33
Originally by: Malka Badi'a Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 11/01/2008 20:45:49
Quote: Being harder to probe is near useless.
I've been away for a long time, so explain this: ECCMs make you harder to be probed out? How?
Quote: You can make every single one of his ECM's half as powerful by equipping a single ECCM and that's not enough for you?
You can also equip an entire rack of warp core stabs to avoid being scrambled by focus fire warp disruptors, but you sacrafice your entire tank. The logical thing is: If you don't want to fight, fit WCS and suck up the penalties. The illogical thing is: If you want to fight but are not allowed to, fit an entire ECCM rack and suck up losing a shield tank, speed enhancements, eletronic enhancements, and similar.
You can't PvP with a full rack of ECCMs. You can't PvE with a full rack of ECMs. The difference between a full rack of WCS and a full rack of ECCMs is that the person with full WCS doesn't want to fight, but the person with a full rack of ECCM wants to.. but sacraficed far too much of their ship just to work around a singular tactic.
I think you missed the word "single". ONE ECCM mod will make ECM half as effective. ONE. It's the same as fitting an estimal's invul field (in respect to damage).
No where did he say "fit every midslot as ECCM to counter ECM effectively."
Really, you shouldn't be allowed to discuss ECM if you've obviously never been inside a ECM ship.
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Malcanis
5 finger discounteers
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Posted - 2008.01.11 23:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Xequecal The only problem with ECM right now is how few skills you need to use it. Any noob can train 1 or 2 levels of Electronic Warfare, jump into a Blackbird, and be far more effective in a gang than a noob in basically anything else.
If you're talking about high-SP characters in T2 jamming ships like the Falcon, there is no problem. You might be able to jam 2 or 3 ships, but you have no tank whatsoever and can't do any damage. If you miss one jam cycle you're running away or dead. Your ship will often cost more after insurance than the 3 people you're jamming, and you're the first target in any engagement.
Posts like this make me chuckle. ECM is exactly the same as it's been for a year. All that's changed is that now damps aren't way more powerful any more.
That noob in a blackbird? Good for him! Of course, he's virtually worthless unless he's in a gang, right? Breaking news: Caldari ships are specialised and work best supporting a fleet in a specific role! 1v1 that Blackbird will get minced by a similar SP-piloted Thorax, because that Blackbird has to devote ALL it's low/mid slots to ECM/distort amps if a new pilot wants to have any hope of jamming, and it has the damage output of a little fluffy bunny. Oh yeah and it's ssssslllloooowwww. Slow to warp, slow to accelerate, slow top speed. That thorax can leave whenever it wants.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Xequecal
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Posted - 2008.01.12 00:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Xequecal The only problem with ECM right now is how few skills you need to use it. Any noob can train 1 or 2 levels of Electronic Warfare, jump into a Blackbird, and be far more effective in a gang than a noob in basically anything else.
If you're talking about high-SP characters in T2 jamming ships like the Falcon, there is no problem. You might be able to jam 2 or 3 ships, but you have no tank whatsoever and can't do any damage. If you miss one jam cycle you're running away or dead. Your ship will often cost more after insurance than the 3 people you're jamming, and you're the first target in any engagement.
Posts like this make me chuckle. ECM is exactly the same as it's been for a year. All that's changed is that now damps aren't way more powerful any more.
That noob in a blackbird? Good for him! Of course, he's virtually worthless unless he's in a gang, right? Breaking news: Caldari ships are specialised and work best supporting a fleet in a specific role! 1v1 that Blackbird will get minced by a similar SP-piloted Thorax, because that Blackbird has to devote ALL it's low/mid slots to ECM/distort amps if a new pilot wants to have any hope of jamming, and it has the damage output of a little fluffy bunny. Oh yeah and it's ssssslllloooowwww. Slow to warp, slow to accelerate, slow top speed. That thorax can leave whenever it wants.
No, the problem is if you are low SP and have at least one other person with you, a Blackbird is many times better than anything else you could possibly fly. There is simply no comparison to any other Tech 1 ship in the game in terms of destructive power.
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The ArchWarder
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 00:44:00 -
[30]
People who say its chanced based make me laugh, i can get perma jammed in a recon that has 25 sensor strength by an Average rook pilot.
You sacrifice alot to fit an ECCM ( shield tank, ewar, scram,erb ect )
Imo Mid slot ECCM should make you invulnerable to ECM and low slot ECCM should be same effectiveness as current mid slot version.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
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