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Kingwood
Amarr The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:44:00 -
[91]
Amarr obviously have a lot of midslots to spare for ECCM. Though it might be viable to swap out a web for an ECCM mod on a Harbinger. Not sure on that one.
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Kingwood
Amarr The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:53:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Kingwood on 12/01/2008 17:55:11 And btw, ECM is a little bit overpowered. We were in lowsec yesterday, and after me losing a duel to a corpmate, they found a pirate Typhoon in a belt, and decided to jump it. I warped in to watch (in my pod). So my gang mates (a Drake, a Megathron with rails, and a Falcon) jump it. Expectedly, the Phoons mates arrive in a Cerberus, a Drake, another BS, and another ship I don't remember) warp in on them. The Falcon JAMS ALL and thus saves the day. If that is not overpowered, I don't know what is.
Edit: By jams all I mean jam the heavy hitters, and allowing them to warp out.
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Seth Allasatre
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:10:00 -
[93]
ECCM is certainly not worthless but I still think, like others, that ECM should have some stacking penalty. ECM drones aren't a huge concern since they have a low chance to begin with, but each ECM module you fit should not get a full roll of the dice. A stacking penalty still allows someone to fit a ship for perma-jam but at least it gives the jammed in question a better chance.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:34:00 -
[94]
ECM is really only worthwhile to use on a dedicated ECM ship. All dedicated ECM ships have no tank and crap DPS. I'd hardly say it's 'overpowered.'
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:38:00 -
[95]
Originally by: GateScout ECM is really only worthwhile to use on a dedicated ECM ship. All dedicated ECM ships have no tank and crap DPS. I'd hardly say it's 'overpowered.'
Yeah because all the other recons and EAF have soooo much dps and tank. Failed argument. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:40:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 12/01/2008 18:40:40
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
But in game, the falcon isn't going to throw an entire rack of ECM on you. With only 1-2 ECM on you, you arn't going to be jammed that often.
Are you just ignoring the fact that you DONT need to perma jam everything to be effective? ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Oku Kee'lus
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:51:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Oku Kee''lus on 12/01/2008 18:53:27 Edited by: Oku Kee''lus on 12/01/2008 18:52:17
Originally by: Kingwood Amarr obviously have a lot of midslots to spare for ECCM. Though it might be viable to swap out a web for an ECCM mod on a Harbinger. Not sure on that one.
And Caldari tanks have a lot of midslots for tackling? Your point is what?
You can't fit one ship for every situation
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Maeltstome
Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:01:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark Furthermore ECM is chance based in he first place anyway - and those modules increasing the strength of a ship with 96% really pays off... you might not be immune but a ship really have to dedicate itself to ECM against such a ship.
Pinky
My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Somethings funky. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:20:00 -
[99]
Edited by: GateScout on 12/01/2008 19:20:33
Originally by: Maeltstome My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Your huginn will have a sensor strength of 58.
Please tell me the setup that will give someone a 75% chance jamming you... Assume lvl5 skills..... now ask yourself if this is a realistic fit.
The chance of jamming you with 1 t2 ecm jammer (all lvl5 sills) is approximately 20%. Are you really encountering ECM pilots that fit 4+ minmitar ECM jammers? That's rather a specific setup.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:30:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: GateScout ECM is really only worthwhile to use on a dedicated ECM ship. All dedicated ECM ships have no tank and crap DPS. I'd hardly say it's 'overpowered.'
Yeah because all the other recons and EAF have soooo much dps and tank. Failed argument.
Blackbird, Scorpion, etc... Compare those to similar cruisers and battleships. Notice any difference in DPS or Tank?
You fail at comprehension.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:36:00 -
[101]
Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 12/01/2008 19:20:33
Originally by: Maeltstome My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Your huginn will have a sensor strength of 58.
Please tell me the setup that will give someone a 75% chance jamming you... Assume lvl5 skills..... now ask yourself if this is a realistic fit.
The chance of jamming you with 1 t2 ecm jammer (all lvl5 sills) is approximately 20%. Are you really encountering ECM pilots that fit 4+ minmitar ECM jammers? That's rather a specific setup.
ok this might be a wrong assumption since I suck at maths, but let's take it like this:
3 racials by 20% chance of jamming, means, obviously 80% chances of miss.
first jammer misses. 80% chances for that happening. next jammer you throw at him will have 80% of those 80% chances of jamming that ship, means 64% chances of failing. it fails to jam, next jammer will have 80% of those 64% chances of failing, meaning around 51% chance of failing.
it behaves somewhat like this, however I must say again that I suck at maths and I might be totally wrong here. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:46:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 12/01/2008 19:20:33
Originally by: Maeltstome My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Your huginn will have a sensor strength of 58.
Please tell me the setup that will give someone a 75% chance jamming you... Assume lvl5 skills..... now ask yourself if this is a realistic fit.
The chance of jamming you with 1 t2 ecm jammer (all lvl5 sills) is approximately 20%. Are you really encountering ECM pilots that fit 4+ minmitar ECM jammers? That's rather a specific setup.
ok this might be a wrong assumption since I suck at maths, but let's take it like this:
3 racials by 20% chance of jamming, means, obviously 80% chances of miss.
first jammer misses. 80% chances for that happening. next jammer you throw at him will have 80% of those 80% chances of jamming that ship, means 64% chances of failing. it fails to jam, next jammer will have 80% of those 64% chances of failing, meaning around 51% chance of failing.
it behaves somewhat like this, however I must say again that I suck at maths and I might be totally wrong here.
Hmm this is a bit tricky. I think you meant the right thing but explained it bit wrong.
each jammer has 80% to fail no matter what happend earlier. It should be like this:
If you activate 2 jammers on 1 target the chance of you missing both jams is 0.8*0.8=0.64 If you activate 3 jammers on 1 target the chance of you missing all jams is 0.8^3=0.51
Important is that each jammer always has 80% chance of failing no matter what the jam before it did. It sounds confusing but thats math lolz. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:46:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 12/01/2008 19:20:33
Originally by: Maeltstome My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Your huginn will have a sensor strength of 58.
Please tell me the setup that will give someone a 75% chance jamming you... Assume lvl5 skills..... now ask yourself if this is a realistic fit.
The chance of jamming you with 1 t2 ecm jammer (all lvl5 sills) is approximately 20%. Are you really encountering ECM pilots that fit 4+ minmitar ECM jammers? That's rather a specific setup.
ok this might be a wrong assumption since I suck at maths, but let's take it like this:
3 racials by 20% chance of jamming, means, obviously 80% chances of miss.
first jammer misses. 80% chances for that happening. next jammer you throw at him will have 80% of those 80% chances of jamming that ship, means 64% chances of failing. it fails to jam, next jammer will have 80% of those 64% chances of failing, meaning around 51% chance of failing.
it behaves somewhat like this, however I must say again that I suck at maths and I might be totally wrong here.
Hmm this is a bit tricky. I think you meant the right thing but explained it bit wrong.
each jammer has 80% to fail no matter what happend earlier. It should be like this:
If you activate 2 jammers on 1 target the chance of you missing both jams is 0.8*0.8=0.64 If you activate 3 jammers on 1 target the chance of you missing all jams is 0.8^3=0.51
Important is that each jammer always has 80% chance of failing no matter what the jam before it did. It sounds confusing but thats math lolz.
exactly what I was trying to say ---
planetary interaction idea! |
mia mia
Caldari Kudzu Collective
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:51:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Grimpak it behaves somewhat like this, however I must say again that I suck at maths and I might be totally wrong here.
Close.
4x T2 racial jammers with a 12 jamming strength will have a 61% chance of jamming your ECCM reinforced huginn.
5x T2 racial jammers would give you a 70% chance of being jammed.
6x t2 racial jammers gives you 76% chance of being jammed.
Of course, a single racial can *theoretically* perma-jam you.
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Eardianm
Darkness Inc. Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:55:00 -
[105]
Since we seem to be going with anecdotal > hard numbers (), here's my take. I've had great success with ECCM. In empire wars (as in, when I had modules nearby) I routinely would slap on a mid slot ECCM, and often a low slot as well, specifically to take out enemy ECM boats.
Took out multiple Rooks and a Scorp off the top of my head. They might get one jam off on me, but I'm sure they were forced to use more modules on me than they liked/planned.
It really only takes one or two boats specifically on anti-ecm duty to put the heat on them (scaled for engagement size, obviously). Load up a couple ECCM modules, and either force them to totally focus on you, losing the entire gang advantage, or get blowns up.
I personally like it currently, although I don't think the recent ECM buff was necessary. I hate the "one size fits all" fittings for every situation that people seem to want.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:57:00 -
[106]
so whats the chances of getting jammed by a scorp with two strength enhancers and 5 multis, vs 79 sensor strength over 5 cycles?
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Pan Zhu'Liang
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:58:00 -
[107]
so if 6 jammers with a 20% success rate were applied to the huggin in question it would if fact be jammed almost exactly 75% of the time.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:09:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Dr Fighter so whats the chances of getting jammed by a scorp with two strength enhancers and 5 multis, vs 79 sensor strength over 5 cycles?
Assuming a multi-spec is about 7.5 (lvl5 skills):
The chance of jamming a ship with a 79 sensor strength w/ 5 multi-specs over 5 cycles is approximately 90.5%
That's equivalent to having 25 jammers on the target.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:09:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 20:14:43 Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 20:10:32 I'd say being jammed 80% of the time is "being taken out of the fight"
Of course, I don't fly stabbed battleships like some people, so maybe being jammed 40-50% of the time removes them, because it takes them an extra 20 seconds to lock
Not to mention, 5 medium drones will rip a falcon to shreds in seconds. Of course, people seem to be unable to get a warp in point to fight it, so they complain.
I can see why ECM annoys some people, but to be honest, you should be jammed 80%+ of the time if the target has 6 ECM on you (with a ECCM). That's 6 dedicated midslots (and probably 3 lowslots and 2 rig slots) just to keep you jammed. That's most definately not overpowered.
1-2 ECM has a decent chance at jamming a non-ECCMed BS, but isn't reliable against a ECCM-reinforced setup.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 12/01/2008 18:40:40
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
But in game, the falcon isn't going to throw an entire rack of ECM on you. With only 1-2 ECM on you, you arn't going to be jammed that often.
Are you just ignoring the fact that you DONT need to perma jam everything to be effective?
If you have an ECCM on (a BS, commandship, or recon), you arn't going to be removed from the fight, unless again, you consider 50% chance of being jammed "removed".
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:11:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Grimpak on 12/01/2008 20:15:28
Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang so if 6 jammers with a 20% success rate were applied to the huggin in question it would if fact be jammed almost exactly 75% of the time.
yeah sorta like that.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu 1-2 ECM has a decent chance at jamming a non-ECCMed BS, but isn't reliable against a ECCM-reinforced setup.
no, it becomes 2-3 jammers, thus the comment I made up there about the ECCM ships makes a falcon/rook permajam 2-3 ships instead 2-4 ships when ECCM is applied
btw by perrmajam, what I meant is something being jammed more than 60% of the time. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
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Steppa
Gallente Dawn of Fire Te-Ka
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:18:00 -
[111]
How do rigs figure into this discussion?
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:18:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 12/01/2008 20:15:28
Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang so if 6 jammers with a 20% success rate were applied to the huggin in question it would if fact be jammed almost exactly 75% of the time.
yeah sorta like that.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu 1-2 ECM has a decent chance at jamming a non-ECCMed BS, but isn't reliable against a ECCM-reinforced setup.
no, it becomes 2-3 jammers, thus the comment I made up there about the ECCM ships makes a falcon/rook permajam 2-3 ships instead 2-4 ships when ECCM is applied
btw by perrmajam, what I meant is something being jammed more than 60% of the time.
Assuming you are the only person using ECCM. It becomes 1-2 if all 3 of his targets are using them, and that's with good luck.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:18:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 20:10:32 I'd say being jammed 80% of the time is "being taken out of the fight"
Which would require the ECM pilot to basically fit all ECM modules of the same race. That's useless in most fights.
A more realistic fit would 2 of each race or a combo of multi-specs and racial.
If you're blessed to know the type of single ship you're engaging and you have time to REFIT, the ECM pilot will jam you. Of course, that's not realistic.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.12 21:41:00 -
[114]
I was wrong with my examples (hurr math), so sorry about that.
The issue is because ECM is chance based, ECCM doesn't work as well as it should for taking up a critical slot while serving no purpose other than preventing getting jammed. If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it. This is untrue of Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors against ships fitted to counter them; a single Sensor Booster counters a specialized dampening ship very effectively. Furthermore, while the ECM ships may be poor at taking damage, they can easily sit outside of drone range and perma-jam any ship with enough speed to close range.
As a solely dedicated counter module, ECCM should provide more resistance to ECM, OR give it a secondary bonus that would give it some regular usage like SBs/TCs.
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2008.01.12 21:50:00 -
[115]
Edited by: J Valkor on 12/01/2008 21:50:40 Come on now folks.
There are plenty of EOS pilots out there. Make them use the warfare link to increase resistance to being jammed. No slots for you and an added layer of protection. Fit ECCM on your ships for even better results. If it is that common to be ****** by ECM how can you afford not to give all your ships a resistance bonus to it?
For even more fun carry ECM light drones. The second you see a recon, lock and send your ECM drones at em. They can't jam without a lock.
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William DeMeo
Gallente the united
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Posted - 2008.01.12 22:24:00 -
[116]
Originally by: The ArchWarder People who say its chanced based make me laugh, i can get perma jammed in a recon that has 25 sensor strength by an Average rook pilot.
You sacrifice alot to fit an ECCM ( shield tank, ewar, scram,erb ect )
Imo Mid slot ECCM should make you invulnerable to ECM and low slot ECCM should be same effectiveness as current mid slot version.
LOL yeah, let's make it so that 1 eccm makes you invulnerable to ecm because that will be very balanced???????!!! right.
ECM is not overpowered, only dedicated ecm ships can ecm a target effectively. Please can we for once let a recon ship perform it's role? Please, lay off trying to get totally valid ways to play the game nerfed because you can't figure out how to fight them.
But nah, after one thing is changed people start whining about the next. Just like nos, and damps and basically everything ingame that you couldn't beat by simple pressing f1-f8 ecm will get nerfed into uselessness again.
GG Yarr |
GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 23:29:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it.
I disagree. Show me a realistic ECM ship setup that has a probability of jamming a random battleship equipped with ECCM that is greater that 60% (i.e. "very likely").
Note: An ECCM'd BS will require 4 *racial* t2 jammers to get 60% probability of jamming.
I'll wait.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 00:34:00 -
[118]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Ariel Dawn If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it.
I disagree. Show me a realistic ECM ship setup that has a probability of jamming a random battleship equipped with ECCM that is greater that 60% (i.e. "very likely").
Note: An ECCM'd BS will require 4 *racial* t2 jammers to get 60% probability of jamming.
I'll wait.
Likewise, show me a Dampening or TD ship that can use their EWAR that can still do their job against ships fitting the counter. They're almost completely shutdown and the counter-module is still useful out of counter the respecitve EWAR counterpart.
Since each ECM module has its own independent chance of jamming, the pilot turns them on one by one until they get a jam. When you can fit 7 of them (most falcon setups), their targets are sitting pretty doing nothing.
I don't think adding a secondary bonus to ECCM would really be a problem and would encourage using it as a solution. Once nano-ship whiners move onto a new topic, ECM is the most likely target, and having it directly nerfed instead of a counter boost would likely be far less desirable to those who use it, eh?
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.13 00:52:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Ariel Dawn If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it.
I disagree. Show me a realistic ECM ship setup that has a probability of jamming a random battleship equipped with ECCM that is greater that 60% (i.e. "very likely").
Note: An ECCM'd BS will require 4 *racial* t2 jammers to get 60% probability of jamming.
I'll wait.
Likewise, show me a Dampening or TD ship that can use their EWAR that can still do their job against ships fitting the counter. They're almost completely shutdown and the counter-module is still useful out of counter the respecitve EWAR counterpart.
Since each ECM module has its own independent chance of jamming, the pilot turns them on one by one until they get a jam. When you can fit 7 of them (most falcon setups), their targets are sitting pretty doing nothing.
I don't think adding a secondary bonus to ECCM would really be a problem and would encourage using it as a solution. Once nano-ship whiners move onto a new topic, ECM is the most likely target, and having it directly nerfed instead of a counter boost would likely be far less desirable to those who use it, eh?
Indeed. in my end-year predictions for EVE, after nano-ships are nerfed, again, we will see a nerf on ecm ships. again. why? the whine crowd of course. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 02:22:00 -
[120]
Ug, I hope they don't nerf speed or ECM. Not that I fly nano ships, but they are the only reason people fly in smaller gangs anymore, and it would wreck gameplay for a lot of pilots.
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