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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:25:00 -
[1]
Trying to get some discourse going on ECM before the general whine on the EVE-O forums moves from nanoships to ECM. Not calling for a nerf of it either, but instead to look at the counter.
Sensor Dampeners are effectively countered by Sensor Boosters, which have a good use out of just countering them.
Tracking Disruptors are countered by Tracking Computers, although not too effectively, but they still have an all situational use just like Sensor Boosters.
ECCM does a very poor job of countering ECM and a full rack of them still leaves a specialized ECM ship a very good collective chance across all ECM to jam you. Furthuremore, ECCM provide no useful bonuses outside of 'countering' ECM unlike Sensor Dampeners and Tracking Computers.
Their effectiveness as either a counter or useful module should be improved fairly dramatically to make them a viable module to use in a midslot. Some ideas were simply increasing the amount of sensor strength provided percentage wise, or perhaps giving it another attribute such as lowering signature radius and having it utilize scripts.
Thoughts or suggestions on the matter?
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:33:00 -
[2]
ECCM does offer one benefit aside from countering ECM.
It makes you harder to scan down.
A cloaking device obviously works better, but if you want to be harder to find while uncloaked it could be of some benefit. Covert Cyno ship maybe? -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
velmistr Ecco
Caldari InNova Tech Inc Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:33:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
ECCM does a very poor job of countering ECM and a full rack of them still leaves a specialized ECM ship a very good collective chance across all ECM to jam you. Furthuremore, ECCM provide no useful bonuses outside of 'countering' ECM unlike Sensor Dampeners and Tracking Computers.
I have no idea what does full rack of eccm modules, but single eccm module nearly doubles your sensor strength so effectively lowers chance of successfull jamming to 50% of original value. It seems ok to me.
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Warrio
Mining Bytes Inc. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:52:00 -
[4]
I would say that a full rack of ECCM would afford you the sensor strength of a small moon.
Sig removed due to being too freaking awsome. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Deckard Cain |
Kehmor
Caldari PAK
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:01:00 -
[5]
eccm more or less effectively makes you twice as hard to jam. So say you need two jammers to reliably jam a battleship. You use one med slot and suddenly need 4 ecm jammers to reliably jam you. Seeems alright to me, a regular addition to any of my ships with a spare med slot (not many)
PAK is recruiting! |
M00dy
Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:20:00 -
[6]
I'd say that other mods would be more usefull.
RATatatatatat - Moody
Killed In Action The Crimson Federation |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:23:00 -
[7]
Furthermore ECM is chance based in he first place anyway - and those modules increasing the strength of a ship with 96% really pays off... you might not be immune but a ship really have to dedicate itself to ECM against such a ship.
Pinky - I'm a nice guy!!
But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored... |
Nairova Intaku
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:27:00 -
[8]
Yesterday the full extent of the damps nerf hit me when my ECCM'd hyperion was permajammed by a falcon, and then I thought that even if I had damps...they'd have been useless
boost damps nerf ecm!
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:28:00 -
[9]
I think ccp will boost tracking computers instead. It will be inline with the tracking disruptor nerf. They'll never touch ecm or eccm methinks. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:34:00 -
[10]
Well, ECCM does counter ECM, but since its different than other types of EWAR the large number of jamming tries you can get still essentially guarantees a jam.
For example, an Arazu/Lachesis with 3-4 damps cannot reasonably dampen a ship with a sensor booster due to stacking nerfs.
A jamming ship has a very high chance of jamming most ships. ECCM work very well versus a single ECM, but unlike other EWAR the collective jamming power of all the ECM modules such ships can carry still guarantee a jam statistically since there is no penalty between using 1 on a target or 7.
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:38:00 -
[11]
But those ECM ships will most likely have a very ineffective or nonexisting tank... If you are alone ofcourse you'll have trouble - I'm a nice guy!!
But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored... |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:43:00 -
[12]
Also add that ecm is the only thing that is attacking the weakpoints of marauders. If yer not caldari mr marauder can screw you over. gg ccp. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:57:00 -
[13]
Quote: ECCM does a very poor job of countering ECM and a full rack of them still leaves a specialized ECM ship a very good collective chance across all ECM to jam you. Furthuremore, ECCM provide no useful bonuses outside of 'countering' ECM unlike Sensor Dampeners and Tracking Computers.
ECCM does a great job of countering ECM: a single module makes you suddenly twice as hard to jam.
As for not doing anything besides countering ECM, that's because of the hit or miss nature of ECM. If ECM modules don't jam you, you experience no ill effect whatsoever and have completely nullified all his ECM modules on you.
It's not like remote sensor dampeners which always reduced both your lock range and lock speed. RSD's always hurt you, so therefore the counter to RSD's always helps you. ECM only sometimes hurts you, so therefore the counter to ECCM only sometimes helps you.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 19:10:00 -
[14]
It's pretty obvious the op has never used an ECM ship. ECCM doing a poor job? Are you serious?
It's like having a module that inceases the enemies chance of missing their weapons by 100%. So it effectively halfs their dps regardless of damage type.
If fact, that's exactly what it does. Each ECCM you add makes you twice as hard to jam, effectively making the target waste its time.
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.11 19:56:00 -
[15]
The point is ECCM offers no benefits aside from countering ECM, unlike sensor boosters or tracking comps. Being harder to probe is near useless.
Now if ECCM did something else in addition... like decreasing sig radius, it would be a more attractive module.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:18:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ulstan on 11/01/2008 20:19:45
Quote: The point is ECCM offers no benefits aside from countering ECM, unlike sensor boosters or tracking comps.
Because ECM offers no benefits unless it jams the target. RSDs always hurt you, so therefore the RSD counter always helps you. ECM only sometimes hurts you, therefore ECCM only sometimes helps you.
If a guy using a RSD hits you, and you have the counter module equipped, you are still worse off than you would have been had he not used the RSD.
If a guy ECM's you, and you have the counter module equipped and the jam fails, his rack of ECM's directed at you had no effect whatsoever.
You can make every single one of his ECM's half as powerful by equipping a single ECCM and that's not enough for you?
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Mo Steel
Caldari Sanguis vix Dignatio
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Warrio I would say that a full rack of ECCM would afford you the sensor strength of a small moon.
That's no moon. -----
Want a sig made? Eve-Mail me, signatures made for 5 million isk each. |
Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:35:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 11/01/2008 20:45:49
Quote: Being harder to probe is near useless.
I've been away for a long time, so explain this: ECCMs make you harder to be probed out? How?
Quote: You can make every single one of his ECM's half as powerful by equipping a single ECCM and that's not enough for you?
You can also equip an entire rack of warp core stabs to avoid being scrambled by focus fire warp disruptors, but you sacrafice your entire tank. The logical thing is: If you don't want to fight, fit WCS and suck up the penalties. The illogical thing is: If you want to fight but are not allowed to, fit an entire ECCM rack and suck up losing a shield tank, speed enhancements, eletronic enhancements, and similar.
You can't PvP with a full rack of ECCMs. You can't PvE with a full rack of ECMs. The difference between a full rack of WCS and a full rack of ECCMs is that the person with full WCS doesn't want to fight, but the person with a full rack of ECCM wants to.. but sacraficed far too much of their ship just to work around a singular tactic. ---------
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:41:00 -
[19]
Your chance of being probed out is, among other factors, proportional to your signature radius and inversely proportional to your sensor strength. Therefore, ECCM modules make you harder to scan down.
Like I said, this has limited usefulness, but it's there. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Corstaad
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:54:00 -
[20]
ECM isn't a problem,its camping the same spot for days with the same ship. Your just asking to get run over by a gang setup to beat your camp.
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Malena
Shiva
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Posted - 2008.01.11 21:04:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Malena on 11/01/2008 21:05:28
Originally by: Bronson Hughes Your chance of being probed out is, among other factors, proportional to your signature radius and inversely proportional to your sensor strength. Therefore, ECCM modules make you harder to scan down.
Like I said, this has limited usefulness, but it's there.
This is news to me...is it an undocumented bonus? I have never seen a sig radius reduction when fitting ECCM, but then, I wasn't looking for it when checking stats. (I will now though) And just checked the item database to make sure I wasn't crazy...if there is a sig radius reduction, then it is undocumented, because it certainly isn't listed where I could see it.
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2008.01.11 21:06:00 -
[22]
The only problem with ECM right now is how few skills you need to use it. Any noob can train 1 or 2 levels of Electronic Warfare, jump into a Blackbird, and be far more effective in a gang than a noob in basically anything else.
If you're talking about high-SP characters in T2 jamming ships like the Falcon, there is no problem. You might be able to jam 2 or 3 ships, but you have no tank whatsoever and can't do any damage. If you miss one jam cycle you're running away or dead. Your ship will often cost more after insurance than the 3 people you're jamming, and you're the first target in any engagement.
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Kaiji Vincente
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Posted - 2008.01.11 21:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes ECCM does offer one benefit aside from countering ECM.
It makes you harder to scan down.
A cloaking device obviously works better, but if you want to be harder to find while uncloaked it could be of some benefit. Covert Cyno ship maybe?
It also seems to help in finding cosmic anomaly encounters with the onboard (ctrl-F11) scanner. A small and very specalized benifit, but tangible none the less.
One thing that puzzles me is why mods like ECCM - Omni I exist. An 80% boost to all sensor types seems no better than fitting racial ECCM, all ships have zero sensor strength in three catagories.
Originally by: Malka Badi'a I've been away for a long time, so explain this: ECCMs make you harder to be probed out? How?
Sucessfuly finding someone inside a mission deadspace is partially governed by the signature radius/sensor strength ratio their ship(s). There's an excellent probing guide on the forums that covers the subject in some detail here.
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.11 21:08:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 11/01/2008 21:09:37
Originally by: Malena
This is news to me...is it an undocumented bonus? I have never seen a sig radius reduction when fitting ECCM, but then, I wasn't looking for it when checking stats. (I will now though) And just checked the item database to make sure I wasn't crazy...if there is a sig radius reduction, then it is undocumented, because it certainly isn't listed where I could see it.
You misunderstood me. Signature radius and sensor strength both effect the liklyhood you getting probed. High sensor strength does not directly change your signature radius. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.11 22:45:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 11/01/2008 22:46:20 Remove ECCM, add a sensor strength script for sensor boosters and be done with it!
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Tha Pusher
III ELEMENTS VENOM Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 22:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Malena Edited by: Malena on 11/01/2008 21:05:28
Originally by: Bronson Hughes Your chance of being probed out is, among other factors, proportional to your signature radius and inversely proportional to your sensor strength. Therefore, ECCM modules make you harder to scan down.
Like I said, this has limited usefulness, but it's there.
This is news to me...is it an undocumented bonus? I have never seen a sig radius reduction when fitting ECCM, but then, I wasn't looking for it when checking stats. (I will now though) And just checked the item database to make sure I wasn't crazy...if there is a sig radius reduction, then it is undocumented, because it certainly isn't listed where I could see it.
hes just mentioning the two factors involved in scanning some1 out, and that the ECCM effects one of those two.
EVE!! It's like a party in your mouth, and everyone's throwing up
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 23:01:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 11/01/2008 23:02:33
Originally by: Malka Badi'a Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 11/01/2008 20:45:49
Quote: Being harder to probe is near useless.
I've been away for a long time, so explain this: ECCMs make you harder to be probed out? How?
Quote: You can make every single one of his ECM's half as powerful by equipping a single ECCM and that's not enough for you?
You can also equip an entire rack of warp core stabs to avoid being scrambled by focus fire warp disruptors, but you sacrafice your entire tank. The logical thing is: If you don't want to fight, fit WCS and suck up the penalties. The illogical thing is: If you want to fight but are not allowed to, fit an entire ECCM rack and suck up losing a shield tank, speed enhancements, eletronic enhancements, and similar.
You can't PvP with a full rack of ECCMs. You can't PvE with a full rack of ECMs. The difference between a full rack of WCS and a full rack of ECCMs is that the person with full WCS doesn't want to fight, but the person with a full rack of ECCM wants to.. but sacraficed far too much of their ship just to work around a singular tactic.
I think you missed the word "single". ONE ECCM mod will make ECM half as effective. ONE. It's the same as fitting an estimal's invul field (in respect to damage).
No where did he say "fit every midslot as ECCM to counter ECM effectively."
Really, you shouldn't be allowed to discuss ECM if you've obviously never been inside a ECM ship.
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Malcanis
5 finger discounteers
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Posted - 2008.01.11 23:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Xequecal The only problem with ECM right now is how few skills you need to use it. Any noob can train 1 or 2 levels of Electronic Warfare, jump into a Blackbird, and be far more effective in a gang than a noob in basically anything else.
If you're talking about high-SP characters in T2 jamming ships like the Falcon, there is no problem. You might be able to jam 2 or 3 ships, but you have no tank whatsoever and can't do any damage. If you miss one jam cycle you're running away or dead. Your ship will often cost more after insurance than the 3 people you're jamming, and you're the first target in any engagement.
Posts like this make me chuckle. ECM is exactly the same as it's been for a year. All that's changed is that now damps aren't way more powerful any more.
That noob in a blackbird? Good for him! Of course, he's virtually worthless unless he's in a gang, right? Breaking news: Caldari ships are specialised and work best supporting a fleet in a specific role! 1v1 that Blackbird will get minced by a similar SP-piloted Thorax, because that Blackbird has to devote ALL it's low/mid slots to ECM/distort amps if a new pilot wants to have any hope of jamming, and it has the damage output of a little fluffy bunny. Oh yeah and it's ssssslllloooowwww. Slow to warp, slow to accelerate, slow top speed. That thorax can leave whenever it wants.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Xequecal
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Posted - 2008.01.12 00:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Xequecal The only problem with ECM right now is how few skills you need to use it. Any noob can train 1 or 2 levels of Electronic Warfare, jump into a Blackbird, and be far more effective in a gang than a noob in basically anything else.
If you're talking about high-SP characters in T2 jamming ships like the Falcon, there is no problem. You might be able to jam 2 or 3 ships, but you have no tank whatsoever and can't do any damage. If you miss one jam cycle you're running away or dead. Your ship will often cost more after insurance than the 3 people you're jamming, and you're the first target in any engagement.
Posts like this make me chuckle. ECM is exactly the same as it's been for a year. All that's changed is that now damps aren't way more powerful any more.
That noob in a blackbird? Good for him! Of course, he's virtually worthless unless he's in a gang, right? Breaking news: Caldari ships are specialised and work best supporting a fleet in a specific role! 1v1 that Blackbird will get minced by a similar SP-piloted Thorax, because that Blackbird has to devote ALL it's low/mid slots to ECM/distort amps if a new pilot wants to have any hope of jamming, and it has the damage output of a little fluffy bunny. Oh yeah and it's ssssslllloooowwww. Slow to warp, slow to accelerate, slow top speed. That thorax can leave whenever it wants.
No, the problem is if you are low SP and have at least one other person with you, a Blackbird is many times better than anything else you could possibly fly. There is simply no comparison to any other Tech 1 ship in the game in terms of destructive power.
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The ArchWarder
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 00:44:00 -
[30]
People who say its chanced based make me laugh, i can get perma jammed in a recon that has 25 sensor strength by an Average rook pilot.
You sacrifice alot to fit an ECCM ( shield tank, ewar, scram,erb ect )
Imo Mid slot ECCM should make you invulnerable to ECM and low slot ECCM should be same effectiveness as current mid slot version.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.12 01:28:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 11/01/2008 19:18:04 It's pretty obvious the op has never used an ECM ship. ECCM doing a poor job? Are you serious?
Hurr. It's pretty obvious this poster is a child due to attacking someone trying to discuss a topic.
The issue is not about a single ECM vs a single ECCM. Reducing a 75% chance to be jammed to 40% works well. But ECM modules don't stack, so unlike fitting sensor boosters / tracking computers to counter Damps/TDs, no matter what you do on average you will be jammed.
It's that even if you fill your mid slots completely with ECCM, across all the ECM being used against you the collective jam chance is still over 100%. This is with your sensor strength being over 100. If you fit completely to counter ECCM, unlike Damps/TDs, its just not possible. And this is while you are only fitting modules that provide no other benefit (other than being harder to scan down), while the modules to counter other racial EWAR ships only need 1 fitted and provide useful benefits.
I know the situation I described is unlikely with the ECM ship carrying all specialized jammers, but its plausible. Players only fit ECCM when they know they're going to be facing a lot of ECM, so the vice versa is an acceptable argument point on the part of the ECM ship. I also understand you're a serious Rook pilot from what I can see; but I'm not calling for a nerf of ECM, just a boost to the counter should players chose to use it.
tl;dr: ECCM doesn't work too well, at least change it to scripts and add an alternative useful bonus that isn't situational.
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Spartan dax
5 finger discounteers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 01:35:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Xequecal
No, the problem is if you are low SP and have at least one other person with you, a Blackbird is many times better than anything else you could possibly fly. There is simply no comparison to any other Tech 1 ship in the game in terms of destructive power.
It's all situation dependant though, when two gangs hit 6+ people each a n00b in a BB will die without having had any noteworthy effect whereas a skilled Falcon pilot can actually (with luck) sway the battle in favour of his own gang before having to warp out/be destroyed.
And, ECCM is a pain. I wouldn't bother fitting it on many ships below BC's but they do work wonders for your gang as well as for yourself as you're effectively reducing the chances of your buddies being exposed to spare jammers. It's all about the role of the dice, all ECM pilots know this.
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Corstaad
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.01.12 02:10:00 -
[33]
ECM is the counters people wanted. BS gatecamps,nano gangs, EW you can go on. Sorry but this isn't close to damps where everyone could fit them.
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MalVortex
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Posted - 2008.01.12 02:31:00 -
[34]
No skilled ECM pilot would just keep throwing ECM at an ECCMed ship. They'll try to cycle jam as many targets as possible, and even one ECCM on that target ship halves the effectiveness at all ECM thrown at you.
If your enemy routinely uses falcons/scorps/w.e on you, have your fleet just equip 1 ECCM. That will effectively half the amount of jams you receive. No other module in the game has such a drastic decrease of another (save perhaps webs).
If they aren't massing ECM ships at you, why are you worried about being jammed in the first place? Just gank the ECM ship (they don't tank well, remember?) and continue on your way.
People are seriously complaining about new Blackbird pilots? Seriously, WTF. Its got no tank even with a skilled pilot, so just shoot it. A new player won't even really know how to warp in/out to cycle jamm. Other races Ewar cruisers are also good, although some of their racial EWAR is overnerfed. Thats not a problem with the ship hulls.
When Damps get fixed (and to a lesser degree TDs) a newer player in a celestis will just outright kill one target's ability to lock, a newer player will be able to nos/neut+TD to hell and back a battleship in an Arbitrator. And The bellicose wouldn't be bad at all if you've got a couple Torp Ravens in gang.
Too much whining. ECCM only works if the enemy bring ECM. ECM only works on dedicated, no-tanked ships, and even then its pilot skill dependent AND luck based. Further reducing the game to just tank+spank or blob warfare is a bad thing.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 03:19:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 11/01/2008 19:18:04 It's pretty obvious the op has never used an ECM ship. ECCM doing a poor job? Are you serious?
Hurr. It's pretty obvious this poster is a child due to attacking someone trying to discuss a topic.
The issue is not about a single ECM vs a single ECCM. Reducing a 75% chance to be jammed to 40% works well. But ECM modules don't stack, so unlike fitting sensor boosters / tracking computers to counter Damps/TDs, no matter what you do on average you will be jammed.
It's that even if you fill your mid slots completely with ECCM, across all the ECM being used against you the collective jam chance is still over 100%. This is with your sensor strength being over 100. If you fit completely to counter ECCM, unlike Damps/TDs, its just not possible. And this is while you are only fitting modules that provide no other benefit (other than being harder to scan down), while the modules to counter other racial EWAR ships only need 1 fitted and provide useful benefits.
I know the situation I described is unlikely with the ECM ship carrying all specialized jammers, but its plausible. Players only fit ECCM when they know they're going to be facing a lot of ECM, so the vice versa is an acceptable argument point on the part of the ECM ship. I also understand you're a serious Rook pilot from what I can see; but I'm not calling for a nerf of ECM, just a boost to the counter should players chose to use it.
tl;dr: ECCM doesn't work too well, at least change it to scripts and add an alternative useful bonus that isn't situational.
Are you being serious? Do you have any idea how this kind of math works?
If a target is using two racials against you, and they both have a 70% chance to jam you, he doesn't have a 140% chance to jam you each cycle. He has a 91% chance to jam.
Fit a single ECCM on, and with two racials, that goes down to 58% (assuming each jammer has a 70% chance without the ECCM, which is quite high against a battleship or recon).
If you fit a 2nd ECCM on, with two racials, it goes down to about 32% to jam each cycle (assuming each jammer has a 70% chance without the ECCM, which is quite high against a battleship or recon).
If the target attemps to jam you with 8 racials that have a base of 70% dhance to jam, and you have 2 ECCM on, he has a total of 78.54%. That's almost a quarter of a chance you will not lose lock with eight racials on you.
With a third ECCM, the same 8 racials, again all with 70% base chance, goes even further down to 51.93%.
It is hardly 100% chance even with only two ECCM against 8 racials.
I can understand your concern, but to be honest, I think it is stimming from your lack of understanding how ECM truely "stack".
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.01.12 03:25:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Dr Fighter on 12/01/2008 03:25:50
Originally by: MalVortex No skilled ECM pilot would just keep throwing ECM at an ECCMed ship.
i dont consider ECCM an effective counter, i had a sensor strength of 79 with my BS and i still got jammed by a scorp with 5 multis no less than 4/5 cycles, thats a BS with 2x 96% eccm boosters of the correct sensor type. Yes i know thats not a mathematically substantial case but still this IS 1v1, its fairly shocking, and still reasonable argument for the grounds that eccm is clearly not potent enough.
so how is ECCM an effective counter, sensor boosters vs. damps works fine AND gives you a nice bonus at the same time. ECCM clearly need a boost.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 03:29:00 -
[37]
After reading through every single post in the thread, I'm amused at how many of the posts have some sort of idealized picture of how ECM and ECCM works.
While ECCM (best named/T2) does increase your sensor strength by 96%, effectively doubling it, it doesn't decrease your chance to be jammed by 50% in doing so. The math just doesn't work like that.
Further more, ECM is not the same as it was in Revelations as it is in Trinity. Not when ECM ships are concerned. Everything was buffed across the board (ECM ships), as well as all the cap requirements being cut in HALF for all ECM modules. These things change ECM effectiveness quite a bit.
I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit.
The next time I encountered the same bunch, I had my own Falcon pilot on hand, and that Falcon kept 3x Recons (with very high sensor strength) and 2x BS pretty much permajammed for the entire fight. A *single* ship shut down three recons and two BS.
Anyone who takes issue with the idea that ECM ships 'have no tank' and 'no DPS' are completely missing the point. Who cares if you can't put out any DPS? You can shut down almost as many ships as you have midslots FFS.
With todays combination of rigs and ships and skills ECM ships can operate at absurd ranges with almost complete safety, all the while crippling a small gang of 3-5 ships single handedly. Add a second ECM ship into the mix and their capacity to negate targets isn't just twice as good, but something on the order of ten times as effective, due to the way ECM is chance based and the modules don't stack.
The *only* defence against ECM is more ECM. Just because one ECM increases the sensor strength by 96% doesn't mean that you're going to have a reasonable chance to escape being jammed. Not even while using a ship with extremely high sensor strength like a recon.
Additionally, dedicating an entire slot to an ECCM module and then receiving such little performance from it is really weak. One best named/T2 ECM module should all but eliminate the chance of being jammed by ECM if you're in a higher sensor strength ship (such as a BS, CS, HAC, Recon, etc.)
I'm looking at my Falcon pilot right now and it's racial jam strength is something like 14.1, with the secondary strengths listed at around 4.7, without using ECM strength rigs or overloading (or gang bonuses).
Everyone likes to say that ECM is 'chance based', but I don't see it. Not when the 'chance' that your target will be jammed is usually around 90% of the time in real world application.
ECCM doesn't work well enough, ECM is totally overpowered, and I'm using ECM as much as possible until it gets balanced. It's just too good not to.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 03:37:00 -
[38]
"I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 03:50:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Grimpak on 12/01/2008 03:52:27
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Are you being serious? Do you have any idea how this kind of math works?
If a target is using two racials against you, and they both have a 70% chance to jam you, he doesn't have a 140% chance to jam you each cycle. He has a 91% chance to jam.
Fit a single ECCM on, and with two racials, that goes down to 58% (assuming each jammer has a 70% chance without the ECCM, which is quite high against a battleship or recon).
If you fit a 2nd ECCM on, with two racials, it goes down to about 32% to jam each cycle (assuming each jammer has a 70% chance without the ECCM, which is quite high against a battleship or recon).
If the target attemps to jam you with 8 racials that have a base of 70% dhance to jam, and you have 2 ECCM on, he has a total of 78.54%. That's almost a quarter of a chance you will not lose lock with eight racials on you.
With a third ECCM, the same 8 racials, again all with 70% base chance, goes even further down to 51.93%.
It is hardly 100% chance even with only two ECCM against 8 racials.
I can understand your concern, but to be honest, I think it is stimming from your lack of understanding how ECM truely "stack".
well the problem is that ECM doesn't stack at all.
every mod has it's own "dice" in a matter of speaking and acts independently of any other jammer, wich means that the chance of success is very high, even with a 51pt sensor str ship (overloaded ECCM on a hyperion), because if one fails, you just need to activate another one, rolling up the dice once again.
but yes, I guess your calculations are somewhat correct.
Originally by: Dr Fighter Edited by: Dr Fighter on 12/01/2008 03:41:16 Edited by: Dr Fighter on 12/01/2008 03:25:50
Originally by: MalVortex No skilled ECM pilot would just keep throwing ECM at an ECCMed ship.
i dont consider ECCM an effective counter, i had a sensor strength of 79 with my BS and i still got jammed by a scorp with 5 multis no less than 4/5 cycles, thats a BS with 2x 96% eccm boosters of the correct sensor type. Yes i know thats not a mathematically substantial case but still this IS 1v1, its fairly shocking, and still reasonable argument for the grounds that eccm is clearly not potent enough.
expample is about a 7% chance to jam (with uber skills and strength boost mods) times 5 against 79, the chances arnt good per cycle and when compared to 5 cycles dont make sense
so how is ECCM an effective counter, sensor boosters vs. damps works fine AND gives you a nice bonus at the same time. ECCM clearly need a boost.
hmm... why not making the ECCM projectors an area of effect module instead a targeted module? ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 03:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
little doesn't mean none at all.
the falcon pilot was lucky. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.01.12 03:55:00 -
[41]
i agree with grimpak and i will add, ECM should stack like eevery other module somehow.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 03:55:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You don't know wtf you're talking about tbh. My own Falcon kept 2x BS and 3x Recons jammed 100% for the duration of the fight all by itself. It's cake to jam anyone not equipped with less than two ECCM. And even then jams get through. Not to mention ECM drones.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 03:57:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 03:59:40
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You don't know wtf you're talking about tbh. My own Falcon kept 2x BS and 3x Recons jammed 100% for the duration of the fight all by itself. It's cake to jam anyone not equipped with less than two ECCM. And even then jams get through. Not to mention ECM drones.
I'm sure your falcon's ECM drones help a lot.
Troll 4/10.
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
little doesn't mean none at all.
the falcon pilot was lucky.
Luck doesn't = overpowered, or a general example of how a falcon does in a gang.
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:03:00 -
[44]
Edited by: J Valkor on 12/01/2008 04:05:21 I see one death of Bellam's involving a Caldari Recon. That Recon was using Dread Gurista ECM's, if that changes the math at all.
However, it does not appear he had any ECCM fitted. Of his gang a Raven had a mid slot ECCM and a Hyperion a low slot equivelent. So it was 2 Astarte, 1 Raven, and 1 Hyperion. Against them was 1 falcon, 1 domi, and 1 Armageddon.
How they all got killed confuses me but I guess the Domi must have been nuet based. Judging by the caldari recon pilot's expendure on her ship she must have been very highly skilled but I doubt she perma-jammed any of them. Unfortunately, I was no there so I could not tell if Bellam and his gang panicked or what they could have done to avoid their fate.
That my Nighthawk may very well have more effective HP then was dealt to all four of them combined is what makes me believe that the Domi was indeed nueting them. Reliance on repair tanks instead of buffer tanks is their decisions and they happened to run into a gang just good enough to top them. One more ship would have probably been enough to kill the recon. Is it okay for 4 gank ships to be beaten by two gank ships (though as I have said I beleive that the Domi had a more of a utility role) and one specialized ships? In an ideal world I would like to think yes. But that is a matter of opinion.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:04:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Dr Fighter i agree with grimpak and i will add, ECM should stack like eevery other module somehow.
I wouldn't say "stacking".
but ECCM needs some kind of bone to throw at.
example would be the case of transforming the projected ECCM module into an area of effect module with arround 35km rad, that would boost every ship's sensor by let's say... 200% unstacked?
problem would be that your own ECM would be affected aswell.
But I say this however: the problem is not ECM itself. ECM is fine. ECCM is the problem here. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 04:09:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Luck doesn't = overpowered, or a general example of how a falcon does in a gang.
indeed it doesn't, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that there is no truely effective counter to ECM.
damps, wich were basically the only way to counter ECM, were nerfed hard, even on specialized ships.
ECCM is not that effective, and from the 5 types of modules that exist (ECCM racial, ECCM omni, low-slot ECCM racial, low-slot ECCM omni, projected ECCM), only one is somewhat effective, altho very poorly, and the gang mod that boosts your sensor str is plaged by the EOS bonuses and the fact that only decreases by 1-5% or so, your chances of being jammed. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:10:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Grimpak
But I say this however: the problem is not ECM itself. ECM is fine. ECCM is the problem here.
yeah using eccm is like putting on a medieval plate armor for bullet protection. It helps a little but is still worthless in the endeffect. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Noisrevbus
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:13:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I think ccp will boost tracking computers instead. It will be inline with the tracking disruptor nerf.
I think they should boost them both!
I just thought i'd try to tie in some examples here, as speed was mentioned as a liner note in the original post, Lyria bring up speed mods, and someone else whose name i forgot (sorry) bring up module anti-values. It just offer a too good comparison to leave alone.
See, i've argued before that Tracking disruptors is not necessarily bad by default, disruptors become bad because tracking is bad. There is no reason to counter a concept that does not work feasibly enough. That also stem in with ECM to much respect, i'm sure someone can have permajammed you against the odds: because ECM is chance based. He could have 1% chance to jam you, and he can still in essence jam you and your five buddies if he have five ECM modules and get lucky enough to go buy a lottery ticket. How ECM works, as i have also mentioned before, doesn't really benefit anyone since it takes alot of what would be skill and strategy out of the equation in favour of luck and chance.
Now, is ECCM bad? No, it's a strong anti-module as was pointed out. The only thing possibly stronger our friend of unknown baptism mentioned was webs in relation to speed. My issues with speed have nothing to do with speed 'simply being too good' as you see around the forums alot these days. My problem with speed is that it is such a strong allround bonus for many situations, that on paper have counters toward it, that do not apply in current balance. That is offset by specializing one counter up to the point where we talk about 90% anti-values instead of 50%. Speed isn't necessarily too strong, speed is just a figurative value. Webs are too strong in relation to Tracking and Missile precision. Webs have a 90% anti-value whereas Tracking have an effect closer to 0% (my excuses for not doing the math to serve a more accurate example). When tracking is no longer applicable, nore is there a need for tracking disruption.
Wether you nerf speed and webs, or buff tracking (and to a lesser degree precision) is really not a concern of mine. I don't mind speed tanked ships having better options in disengaging or at least not for them to dictate range. That is a feature. However, that stacking tracking mods like crazy have nowhere near the effect of stacking ECCM or Webs that is a problem, especially since that create the additional problem of rendering Tracking disruptors nigh useless.
In my world, 50% anti-values similar to the ECM-ECCM equations are a good thing. If that is too difficult for you, perhaps you should consider the 1+1 relation of Scrammers-Stabs; and if you belive that ECM being chance based is bad, i belive that you will have alot of Caldari pilots agreeing with you and working with you on a more strategicly applicable solution for jam cycles (such as lock-disruption, or 100% to jam but with overdimensioned cooldowns in each cycle ie. that each module jam for 3 seconds every 30 seconds or whatever value could be considered balanced).
Time to hold my peace.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:20:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Dr Fighter i agree with grimpak and i will add, ECM should stack like eevery other module somehow.
I wouldn't say "stacking".
but ECCM needs some kind of bone to throw at.
example would be the case of transforming the projected ECCM module into an area of effect module with arround 35km rad, that would boost every ship's sensor by let's say... 200% unstacked?
problem would be that your own ECM would be affected aswell.
But I say this however: the problem is not ECM itself. ECM is fine. ECCM is the problem here.
If you mean a 200% incease in strength, that would make a recon's sensor strength higher than a carrier. 35km? That's getting a bit exessive. 50-100% increase and/or a smaller radius tbh.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:23:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
I'm sure your falcon's ECM drones help a lot.
Troll 4/10.
Are you just THAT obtuse? I'm talking about the ECM drone chance to jam, not that Falcons have and/or need ECM drones.
Troll 1/10.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:26:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 04:28:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 04:30:36
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is.
Someone already pointed out that the "faclon" in question was fielding multispecs. A single falcon with multispecs is not going to "basically remove 4 ships" from a fight.
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
I'm sure your falcon's ECM drones help a lot.
Troll 4/10.
Are you just THAT obtuse? I'm talking about the ECM drone chance to jam, not that Falcons have and/or need ECM drones.
Troll 1/10.
ECM drones, aside from heavies, have a extremely low chance to jam.
If your falcon pemra jammed 3 recons and 2 BS with 7 ECM (even with max skills, which you already said you have), I'd like to see which faction / officer ECM you are using. Seriously, 3 t2 racial ECM has a chance around 50% of keeping my falcon out of the fight.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:28:00 -
[53]
Again, the problem is ECCM. Best name ECCM shouldn't increase your sensor strength by 96%, they should reduce your chance to be jammed by 96%. The only problem here is the issue of the sig res/sensor strength formula for being probed out, which would have to be modified so that ECCM didn't imbalance the ability to be probed out any more than it already does.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 04:30:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is.
Someone already pointed out that the "faclon" in question was fielding multispecs. A single falcon with multispecs is not going to "basically remove 4 ships" from a fight.
It wasn't just 'fielding multispecs'. It had racial jammers as well as faction and officer multispecs. And yes, a Falcon with just multispecs can easily 'remove four ships' from a fight.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 04:33:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is.
Someone already pointed out that the "faclon" in question was fielding multispecs. A single falcon with multispecs is not going to "basically remove 4 ships" from a fight.
It wasn't just 'fielding multispecs'. It had racial jammers as well as faction and officer multispecs. And yes, a Falcon with just multispecs can easily 'remove four ships' from a fight.
Maybe 4 frigates. Not 2 battleships and 2 command ships. Sorry, ECM isn't the god module you pretend it is. Even if you mananged to get jammed 2-3 times during the fight, you were engaging other BS, making the downtime during locking extremely low. Not to mention you failed at having ewar support and tackling in your gang at the time.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:40:00 -
[56]
i think sonthing like 1/4 of the jam strength and 1/2 the cycle time would go som way to even out the odd of using multiple jammer on a single target.
that or only allow one ECM active PER target
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:42:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is.
Someone already pointed out that the "faclon" in question was fielding multispecs. A single falcon with multispecs is not going to "basically remove 4 ships" from a fight.
It wasn't just 'fielding multispecs'. It had racial jammers as well as faction and officer multispecs. And yes, a Falcon with just multispecs can easily 'remove four ships' from a fight.
Maybe 4 frigates. Not 2 battleships and 2 command ships. Sorry, ECM isn't the god module you pretend it is. Even if you mananged to get jammed 2-3 times during the fight, you were engaging other BS, making the downtime during locking extremely low. Not to mention you failed at having ewar support and tackling in your gang at the time.
Psh. Do you fly a Falcon? You don't sound like you do. I have first hand experience with flying max skilled Falcons. I know *exactly* what they can/can't do. I don't think you do. I think that you're a liar and that you don't know what you're talking about.
Ask Lord Chaos and [PAK] about whether or not a single Falcon can *SHUT DOWN* 3x Recons and 2x BS. The only way they were able to stop being jammed was to warp off grid.
Stop lying about how ineffective ECM is. I use it all the time. It's extremely effective.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 04:47:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is.
Someone already pointed out that the "faclon" in question was fielding multispecs. A single falcon with multispecs is not going to "basically remove 4 ships" from a fight.
It wasn't just 'fielding multispecs'. It had racial jammers as well as faction and officer multispecs. And yes, a Falcon with just multispecs can easily 'remove four ships' from a fight.
Maybe 4 frigates. Not 2 battleships and 2 command ships. Sorry, ECM isn't the god module you pretend it is. Even if you mananged to get jammed 2-3 times during the fight, you were engaging other BS, making the downtime during locking extremely low. Not to mention you failed at having ewar support and tackling in your gang at the time.
Psh. Do you fly a Falcon? You don't sound like you do. I have first hand experience with flying max skilled Falcons. I know *exactly* what they can/can't do. I don't think you do. I think that you're a liar and that you don't know what you're talking about.
Ask Lord Chaos and [PAK] about whether or not a single Falcon can *SHUT DOWN* 3x Recons and 2x BS. The only way they were able to stop being jammed was to warp off grid.
Stop lying about how ineffective ECM is. I use it all the time. It's extremely effective.
And when you add the counter to each recon and BS, you have a better chance at winning 5 lotterys in a row then jamming all 5 of them "permanetly".
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Herz Ing
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Posted - 2008.01.12 04:56:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is.
Yeah - about that.
First off I'm an ECM noob. If that offends you then just skip this post or flame it w/e you want, I don't mind.
Now, why is it that BS with higher sensor strength get hit harder by ECM than say an interceptor? I mean when you jam any ship the effective jamming time is that jam duration + relock time. Is this working as intended or is this just an overlooked side-effect?
If it was intended for ecm to disable a ship for a specific amount of time regardless of ship class - then give the victim back their target locks after a jammer effect expires.
P.S. I can already predict the Caldari Recon pilots will hate this because it would be a nerf and everyone else would hate this because it wouldn't fix being perma-jammed. Lol
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:02:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
And when you add the counter to each recon and BS, you have a better chance at winning 5 lotterys in a row then jamming all 5 of them "permanetly".
All you need to do to "shut down" a ship and render them 100% combat ineffective is keep them jammed long enough that they can't relock you and engage you.
You don't need to literally have them jammed forever, consecutively. 80-90% of the time is perfectly acceptable. I'm sure you know this of course, but you're just being a pedant just to be a jerk.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:06:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 05:06:03
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
And when you add the counter to each recon and BS, you have a better chance at winning 5 lotterys in a row then jamming all 5 of them "permanetly".
All you need to do to "shut down" a ship and render them 100% combat ineffective is keep them jammed long enough that they can't relock you and engage you.
You don't need to literally have them jammed forever, consecutively. 80-90% of the time is perfectly acceptable. I'm sure you know this of course, but you're just being a pedant just to be a jerk.
It's why I post
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:08:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Herz Ing
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is.
Yeah - about that.
First off I'm an ECM noob. If that offends you then just skip this post or flame it w/e you want, I don't mind.
Now, why is it that BS with higher sensor strength get hit harder by ECM than say an interceptor? I mean when you jam any ship the effective jamming time is that jam duration + relock time. Is this working as intended or is this just an overlooked side-effect?
If it was intended for ecm to disable a ship for a specific amount of time regardless of ship class - then give the victim back their target locks after a jammer effect expires.
P.S. I can already predict the Caldari Recon pilots will hate this because it would be a nerf and everyone else would hate this because it wouldn't fix being perma-jammed. Lol
BS have a harder time with ECM due to the longer lock times. BS still get jammed very easily by ECM, as sensor strength really doesn't play a part vs. well skilled ECM pilots until it's really *really* high (like upper 70s).
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:11:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 05:06:03
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
And when you add the counter to each recon and BS, you have a better chance at winning 5 lotterys in a row then jamming all 5 of them "permanetly".
All you need to do to "shut down" a ship and render them 100% combat ineffective is keep them jammed long enough that they can't relock you and engage you.
You don't need to literally have them jammed forever, consecutively. 80-90% of the time is perfectly acceptable. I'm sure you know this of course, but you're just being a pedant just to be a jerk.
It's why I post
Ah, ok. I totally misunderstood. I thought you were trying to add something to the thread.
If all you're doing is just trolling then, excellent job. 10/10.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:14:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 05:06:03
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
And when you add the counter to each recon and BS, you have a better chance at winning 5 lotterys in a row then jamming all 5 of them "permanetly".
All you need to do to "shut down" a ship and render them 100% combat ineffective is keep them jammed long enough that they can't relock you and engage you.
You don't need to literally have them jammed forever, consecutively. 80-90% of the time is perfectly acceptable. I'm sure you know this of course, but you're just being a pedant just to be a jerk.
It's why I post
Ah, ok. I totally misunderstood. I thought you were trying to add something to the thread.
If all you're doing is just trolling then, excellent job. 10/10.
To be honest, you arn't going to keep "3 recons and 2 BS" out of a fight if they are all using ECCM. Unless of course, you have an all officer fitting. Then maybe, you'll have a small chance. You might jam a few of them each cycle, but not often enough to "totally remove them", and certainly not a 80-90% chance to jam each of them.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to see some math to prove it though. Lock times included.
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Corstaad
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:15:00 -
[65]
On a side note I found a lone one month old BS running in low sec with my Rifter :). Took me two ECM Bursts to figure out what he had, anyone else found ships running those :).
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Herz Ing
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:29:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Herz Ing on 12/01/2008 05:30:15
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Herz Ing
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is.
Yeah - about that.
First off I'm an ECM noob. If that offends you then just skip this post or flame it w/e you want, I don't mind.
Now, why is it that BS with higher sensor strength get hit harder by ECM than say an interceptor? I mean when you jam any ship the effective jamming time is that jam duration + relock time. Is this working as intended or is this just an overlooked side-effect?
If it was intended for ecm to disable a ship for a specific amount of time regardless of ship class - then give the victim back their target locks after a jammer effect expires.
P.S. I can already predict the Caldari Recon pilots will hate this because it would be a nerf and everyone else would hate this because it wouldn't fix being perma-jammed. Lol
BS have a harder time with ECM due to the longer lock times. BS still get jammed very easily by ECM, as sensor strength really doesn't play a part vs. well skilled ECM pilots until it's really *really* high (like upper 70s).
Yes. I think I said that in my original post but I will admit that it was probably unclear because it wasn't very well worded. I meant 'Why did the developers make it so BS are hit harder by ECM than frigs?' rather than 'I don't understand why this happens;.
My point was that this isn't discussed very much and doesn't seem to fit. It would seem like a ship with higher sensor strength should be stronger against ECM. However, this is not the case when a BS with high sensor strength and low scanning resolution gets jammed. In order to effectively overcome ECM while piloting a BS you not only have to fit an ECCM module but a sensor booster with a scanning resolution script.
Doesn't seem very well thought out, yes? Or if there is a valid reason for this? Maybe you could enlighten me?
Anywhoo, once again - what I was suggesting was giving ships back their target locks after an ECM ends.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:31:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Herz Ing Edited by: Herz Ing on 12/01/2008 05:30:15
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Herz Ing
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu "I've had quite a few fights recently where there was a lot of ECM. In one fight, an enemy Falcon effectively shut down my gang of four BS/CS and we lost every ship, even though we had ECCM fit."
That's a lie tbh. Do the math and realize how little of a chance he had to jam all four of you when you ALL had eccm fit.
You dont need to perma jam battleships to render them basically useless. You just need to jam a battleship 1-2 times and make him relock 1-2 and the fight is already tilting towards your favor. I think you lie very much in this thread to make ecm look worse then it is.
Yeah - about that.
First off I'm an ECM noob. If that offends you then just skip this post or flame it w/e you want, I don't mind.
Now, why is it that BS with higher sensor strength get hit harder by ECM than say an interceptor? I mean when you jam any ship the effective jamming time is that jam duration + relock time. Is this working as intended or is this just an overlooked side-effect?
If it was intended for ecm to disable a ship for a specific amount of time regardless of ship class - then give the victim back their target locks after a jammer effect expires.
P.S. I can already predict the Caldari Recon pilots will hate this because it would be a nerf and everyone else would hate this because it wouldn't fix being perma-jammed. Lol
BS have a harder time with ECM due to the longer lock times. BS still get jammed very easily by ECM, as sensor strength really doesn't play a part vs. well skilled ECM pilots until it's really *really* high (like upper 70s).
Yes. I think I said that in my original post but I will admit that it was probably unclear because it wasn't very well worded. I meant 'Why did the developers make it so BS are hit harder by ECM than frigs?' rather than 'I don't understand why this happens;.
My point was that this isn't discussed very much and doesn't seem to fit. It would seem like a ship with higher sensor strength should be stronger against ECM. However, this is not the case when a BS with high sensor strength and low scanning resolution gets jammed. In order to effectively overcome ECM while piloting a BS you not only have to fit an ECCM module but a sensor booster with a scanning resolution script.
Doesn't seem very well thought out, yes? Or if there is a valid reason for this? Maybe you could enlighten me?
Anywhoo, once again - what I was suggesting was giving ships back their target locks after an ECM ends.
But you need to realize that a frigate is jammed nearly 100% of the time by a single ECM.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:44:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 05:06:03
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
And when you add the counter to each recon and BS, you have a better chance at winning 5 lotterys in a row then jamming all 5 of them "permanetly".
All you need to do to "shut down" a ship and render them 100% combat ineffective is keep them jammed long enough that they can't relock you and engage you.
You don't need to literally have them jammed forever, consecutively. 80-90% of the time is perfectly acceptable. I'm sure you know this of course, but you're just being a pedant just to be a jerk.
It's why I post
Ah, ok. I totally misunderstood. I thought you were trying to add something to the thread.
If all you're doing is just trolling then, excellent job. 10/10.
To be honest, you arn't going to keep "3 recons and 2 BS" out of a fight if they are all using ECCM. Unless of course, you have an all officer fitting. Then maybe, you'll have a small chance. You might jam a few of them each cycle, but not often enough to "totally remove them", and certainly not a 80-90% chance to jam each of them.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to see some math to prove it though. Lock times included.
Who said anything about using ECCM? I said I kept 3x recons and 2x BS out of the fight, but never said they used ECCM. You're getting your posts mixed up.
And any single ship that can remove an entire well equipped gang from a fight *all by itself* is overpowered. Even before the damp nerf, no damp ship in the game could do that. One ship for sure, maybe two, but certainly not three or more.
I can't stand ECM. The fights consist of everyone sitting around jammed. On both sides. It's boring and stupid when ECM is the primary battle and DPS and tanks are the secondary battle.
But until ECM are balanced I'll be making sure I have at least twice as much as my enemy. Trinity is the age of ECM ships after all the ECM buffs.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Herz Ing
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:46:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Herz Ing on 12/01/2008 05:49:22
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
But you need to realize that a frigate is jammed nearly 100% of the time by a single ECM.
That's true. But that doesn't really counter what I was saying which was ECM jams are affected by sensor strength and scanning resolution. Regardless of how many ECCM modules I stack there is still a chance of me getting jammed. When that happens the effective duration that I will go without a lock will depend upon my scanning resolution.
This seems broken to me. Wouldn't you agree?
Edit: If sensor strength is the counter to ECM then why isn't recovery from being jammed tied to it but to a completely different stat?
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:51:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Herz Ing
Yes. I think I said that in my original post but I will admit that it was probably unclear because it wasn't very well worded. I meant 'Why did the developers make it so BS are hit harder by ECM than frigs?' rather than 'I don't understand why this happens;.
My point was that this isn't discussed very much and doesn't seem to fit. It would seem like a ship with higher sensor strength should be stronger against ECM. However, this is not the case when a BS with high sensor strength and low scanning resolution gets jammed. In order to effectively overcome ECM while piloting a BS you not only have to fit an ECCM module but a sensor booster with a scanning resolution script.
Doesn't seem very well thought out, yes? Or if there is a valid reason for this? Maybe you could enlighten me?
Anywhoo, once again - what I was suggesting was giving ships back their target locks after an ECM ends.
The real issue is that a BS can be jammed far too easily by an EW ship, even with ECCM fit. And even if ships got their locks back, BS initial lock time is so slow, you'll rarely ever get to have a lock before you're jammed out of the fight anyway.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 05:52:00 -
[71]
the op doesnt undestand, its another WoW, 1v1, counters need to be buffed, nerf damage, speed, ecm everything
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Ashley Snow
Save our Souls
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Posted - 2008.01.12 06:00:00 -
[72]
Quote: Maybe 4 frigates. Not 2 battleships and 2 command ships. Sorry, ECM isn't the god module you pretend it is
You obviosly havnt flown a falcon with good skills. I could lock them up and go get something to eat if I wanted. I dont think ecm needs to be nerfed. I think the eccm definatly needs work. I think it would take work to figure out setups were you could fit a eccm and not sacrifice too much. And if you dont you succumb to ecm. I think it would make it more interesting. Stacking is the worse idea possible for ecm. Just a bad idea all around.
And I think its hilarious all the crying people do on these forums. If its not nos its nano fittings. Not nano its dampners. Not dampners its ecm. Lets just kill it all and just mine.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 06:05:00 -
[73]
\o Ashley ^-^
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Corstaad
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.01.12 06:12:00 -
[74]
This is nothing to do with WoW, you fail to realize that good pvp games are more then just people standing toe to toe pew pewing each other. Sorry but theres alot of people that have played pvp games online for last decade that enjoy "combine arms" approach not BS vs BS gatecamps. Your same basis's would be to have nano ships nerfed.
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Corstaad
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.01.12 06:16:00 -
[75]
I was caught half reading something, so take with a grain of salt.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 08:45:00 -
[76]
Why isn't there a booster to increase sensor strength by say, 500%? For a standard quality booster that is?
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
MalVortex
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Posted - 2008.01.12 09:07:00 -
[77]
The amount of lose in this thread is nauseating.
A max skilled, *ALL LEVEL V* Falcon Pilot can get a Tech II (there are no faction racial jammers) Racial Jammer to 14.12.
The worst battleship in the game sensor strength wise is an Apocalypse, with 14 sensor strength.
The worst Recon in the Game SS wise is The rapier and pilgrim, with 24 sensor strength.
For A Falcon with 7 racial appropriate jammers versus an all Ammar gang of 2x Battleships and 3x Recons to *permajam* them, well, lets take a look:
First off, you'll perma jam the two battleships if they're not packing ECCM. Thats -2 jammers. We now have 5 jammers to jam three targets.
I can post the Excel results if you like, but you only have a per-jammer chance of 59% per target. Even given the two spares, your chance of perma-jamming three recons is only 33.94% per cycle. Your odds start to exponentially drop for a perma jam past the first cycle.
This is, mind you, the absolute perfect storm example. A max skilled pilot, running nothing but 7x Ammar Racial jammers, versus an all ammar gang fielding no ECCM. This simply does not happen in reality. Ever. The math blatantly proves it, now stop posting your impossible situations. ECM is fine, ECCM is fine.
Oh, and ECCM *does* work.
14.21 Max Skilled racial Falcon vs. 24 strength Recon = 0.5920833.. Chance to jam.
14.21 Max Skilled racail falcon vs 47.04 (24*1.96) = 0.3020833... Chance to Jam.
0.5920833 / 0.3020833 = 1.96 better odds. OMFG! No Wai! It effectively halved my chance to be jammed!
14.21 Falcon vs. Apocalypse (14) = 100%
14.21 Falcon vs Apocalypse w/ ECCM (27.44)
14.21 / 27.44 = 51.78 to be jammed. OMFG! No Wai! It just took my permajammed apocalypse and made it nearly an even 50/50 split per jammer! Clearly, this module sucks so much!
And for the "zomg, thats still 50% per module, nerf!" Crowd. This is on an absolutely max skilled falcon running 3x SDA IIs. Its targeting the weakest sensor strength battleship in the game. It has no tank, no dps, no drone bay. 6.8k EHP and an 8DPS Shield Regen tank. Its sole purpose in life is to jam things. If you don't like being jammed, each ECCM halves your chance to be jammed. Alternatively, have your gang shoot at it. This isn't a solo game. You bring friends for a reason. If your gang can't force a falcon to buzz off, your screwed already.
That falcon pilot could also have been a good skilled maga or raven pilot and dumped 1k dps into your hulls. That hurts. A lot. There is a huge opportunity cost to being a dedicated ECM pilot, and its both skill required (you ARE the primary target. always.) and luck based (there is a ~25% chance that 2x racials fail to jam that ECCMed apocalypse).
ECM is fine. Stop complaining.
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Pan Zhu'Liang
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Posted - 2008.01.12 11:11:00 -
[78]
funny, when i played 2 years ago ECM was packed into every spare midslot on every pvp ship (remember armor tanked ravens with ECM?); or so the forums had it. then it got nerfed so that only dedicated ships could use it effectively.
ECCM is still problematic though. there's a very high opportunity cost to fitting it and it doesn't change the luck dynamic.
ECCM needs to reduce the time of the jam so that the whole affair is less luck based. and the idea of giving it a secondary benefit is a good one, it wouldn't have to be anything major, but making you harder to probe doesn't really address the opportunity cost problem.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 11:21:00 -
[79]
Originally by: MalVortex
ECM is fine. Stop complaining.
No its not. How come caldari EAF can totally shut down 2 battleships at the same time with ew while the amarr one can barely disrupt one? Oh and compare the range they got to do this at. Ecm has huge range advantage and ontop of it its the most powerful one and ontop of that there is no good counter. gg ccp, caldari online ftl. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Pan Zhu'Liang
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Posted - 2008.01.12 11:31:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: MalVortex
ECM is fine. Stop complaining.
No its not. How come caldari EAF can totally shut down 2 battleships at the same time with ew while the amarr one can barely disrupt one? Oh and compare the range they got to do this at. Ecm has huge range advantage and ontop of it its the most powerful one and ontop of that there is no good counter. gg ccp, caldari online ftl.
i confess to lacking personal experience in this matter, but that really sounds more like a tracking disruptor problem than an ECM problem. dedicated TD ships should be boosted after the TD nerf just like dedicated ECM ships were after theirs imo.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 11:33:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: MalVortex
ECM is fine. Stop complaining.
No its not. How come caldari EAF can totally shut down 2 battleships at the same time with ew while the amarr one can barely disrupt one? Oh and compare the range they got to do this at. Ecm has huge range advantage and ontop of it its the most powerful one and ontop of that there is no good counter. gg ccp, caldari online ftl.
i confess to lacking personal experience in this matter, but that really sounds more like a tracking disruptor problem than an ECM problem. dedicated TD ships should be boosted after the TD nerf just like dedicated ECM ships were after theirs imo.
And how effective is the gallente and minmatar EAF at totally disabling 2 battleships. Also compare range...
No the truth is ccp screwed over everyone except caldari when it comes to EW and amarr got screwed the most tbfh. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Spartan dax
5 finger discounteers
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Posted - 2008.01.12 12:01:00 -
[82]
Compare range eh? Kitsune has a locking range of 52 km, Keres 48. Their Ewar works for all intents and purposes within their optimal at these ranges. You could argue the effect of the Keres dampeners is subpar but there's nothing wrong with the range.
And a Kitsune holding down two BS's permanently? Why don't you do some math first and come back with the probability of not missing a jam in say 5 cycles?
Use the following ships
2x Megas 2x Megas with eccm
1x Mega 1x Raven 1x Mega 1x Raven both with ECCM
What are the chances of keeping these ships jammed for 5 cycles straight? Use any 4 slot jamming combo you like.
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zorgluba
Doom Guard
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Posted - 2008.01.12 12:13:00 -
[83]
Only reasoning here so no need to flame me to hell and back :)
I find that the biggest power of the jam is that not only does it prevents you to target and thus activate any targetted module on someone it makes you loose all locks. Meaning you have to relock and you loose some time here : locking time, finding your former targets on the overview ...
How about the jam only would prevent you to activate a targetted module (and send drones) but NOT drop the locks so if a jam cycle fails you are 100% effective right away ?
I pod ... nano |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 12:41:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 12/01/2008 12:44:22
Originally by: Spartan dax Compare range eh? Kitsune has a locking range of 52 km, Keres 48. Their Ewar works for all intents and purposes within their optimal at these ranges. You could argue the effect of the Keres dampeners is subpar but there's nothing wrong with the range.
And a Kitsune holding down two BS's permanently? Why don't you do some math first and come back with the probability of not missing a jam in say 5 cycles?
Use the following ships
2x Megas 2x Megas with eccm
1x Mega 1x Raven 1x Mega 1x Raven both with ECCM
What are the chances of keeping these ships jammed for 5 cycles straight? Use any 4 slot jamming combo you like.
Uhm its not like you need to perma jam a BS to make it useless during the time your team is decimating the other...Yeah the caldari EAF has a huge impact alone even on BS sized enemies.
If each side of a 10vs10 engagement would be allowed to bring 1 EAF as support what moron wouldnt pick the caldari one? The minmatar one doesnt suck, sure. Its good at holding people down for gank before they reach gates etc, killing nanos...Gallente one is so-so because of damps and amarr one doesnt even completely shut down ONE battleship at a reasonable range in comparison.
Nerf ecm or boost eccm by large amounts. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
MalVortex
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Posted - 2008.01.12 12:51:00 -
[85]
For a game based on Internet spaceships, you'd think there would be more rational posters.
They're not overpowered. The math proves their not overpowered. If you fail to understand some basic statistics, thats your problem, and I refuse to make it my own.
/thread.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 13:09:00 -
[86]
it's not ECM, it's ECCM that needs to be changed. ECM as it is is ok.
damps are not that good anymore, specially on a keres with it's pityfull lock range.
hyena is good for anti-nano work, that is true.
and the TD problem is two-fold actually: was hit very hard by the Ewar nerf, and the range it has is totally useless vs snipers, wich is where it should shine.
ARM scripts, while there is potential on them, have nerfed lots of things, and even ships. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 13:25:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Grimpak it's not ECM, it's ECCM that needs to be changed. ECM as it is is ok.
damps are not that good anymore, specially on a keres with it's pityfull lock range.
hyena is good for anti-nano work, that is true.
and the TD problem is two-fold actually: was hit very hard by the Ewar nerf, and the range it has is totally useless vs snipers, wich is where it should shine.
ARM scripts, while there is potential on them, have nerfed lots of things, and even ships.
This sums it up imo. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 15:20:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 05:06:03
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
And when you add the counter to each recon and BS, you have a better chance at winning 5 lotterys in a row then jamming all 5 of them "permanetly".
All you need to do to "shut down" a ship and render them 100% combat ineffective is keep them jammed long enough that they can't relock you and engage you.
You don't need to literally have them jammed forever, consecutively. 80-90% of the time is perfectly acceptable. I'm sure you know this of course, but you're just being a pedant just to be a jerk.
It's why I post
Ah, ok. I totally misunderstood. I thought you were trying to add something to the thread.
If all you're doing is just trolling then, excellent job. 10/10.
To be honest, you arn't going to keep "3 recons and 2 BS" out of a fight if they are all using ECCM. Unless of course, you have an all officer fitting. Then maybe, you'll have a small chance. You might jam a few of them each cycle, but not often enough to "totally remove them", and certainly not a 80-90% chance to jam each of them.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to see some math to prove it though. Lock times included.
Who said anything about using ECCM? I said I kept 3x recons and 2x BS out of the fight, but never said they used ECCM. You're getting your posts mixed up.
And any single ship that can remove an entire well equipped gang from a fight *all by itself* is overpowered. Even before the damp nerf, no damp ship in the game could do that. One ship for sure, maybe two, but certainly not three or more.
I can't stand ECM. The fights consist of everyone sitting around jammed. On both sides. It's boring and stupid when ECM is the primary battle and DPS and tanks are the secondary battle.
But until ECM are balanced I'll be making sure I have at least twice as much as my enemy. Trinity is the age of ECM ships after all the ECM buffs.
Case and point. This thread is about the effectiveness of the ECCM module, but you are using examples where the targets are not using the module. Stick to the op.
If they had been, you would barely keep 2 of them out of the fight with luck.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 15:57:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 05:06:03
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
And when you add the counter to each recon and BS, you have a better chance at winning 5 lotterys in a row then jamming all 5 of them "permanetly".
All you need to do to "shut down" a ship and render them 100% combat ineffective is keep them jammed long enough that they can't relock you and engage you.
You don't need to literally have them jammed forever, consecutively. 80-90% of the time is perfectly acceptable. I'm sure you know this of course, but you're just being a pedant just to be a jerk.
It's why I post
Ah, ok. I totally misunderstood. I thought you were trying to add something to the thread.
If all you're doing is just trolling then, excellent job. 10/10.
To be honest, you arn't going to keep "3 recons and 2 BS" out of a fight if they are all using ECCM. Unless of course, you have an all officer fitting. Then maybe, you'll have a small chance. You might jam a few of them each cycle, but not often enough to "totally remove them", and certainly not a 80-90% chance to jam each of them.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to see some math to prove it though. Lock times included.
Who said anything about using ECCM? I said I kept 3x recons and 2x BS out of the fight, but never said they used ECCM. You're getting your posts mixed up.
And any single ship that can remove an entire well equipped gang from a fight *all by itself* is overpowered. Even before the damp nerf, no damp ship in the game could do that. One ship for sure, maybe two, but certainly not three or more.
I can't stand ECM. The fights consist of everyone sitting around jammed. On both sides. It's boring and stupid when ECM is the primary battle and DPS and tanks are the secondary battle.
But until ECM are balanced I'll be making sure I have at least twice as much as my enemy. Trinity is the age of ECM ships after all the ECM buffs.
Case and point. This thread is about the effectiveness of the ECCM module, but you are using examples where the targets are not using the module. Stick to the op.
If they had been, you would barely keep 2 of them out of the fight with luck.
ECCM will drop the ammount of ships you can jam, with a specialized ship, from 2-4 to 2-3.
ECCM works, but not as well as you may think, unless you're trying to jam a carrier with 2 ECCM's.
the problem however is that setups that allow ECCM are rare. Shield tankers need the medslots. fitting a ECCM gives no advantage bar the increase of the sides of the dice vs, let's say a sensor booster (even in it's nerfed state), or even a shield extender or another hardener, and the low-slot ECCM is not worth it.
armor tankers rarely have anything above 4 medslots, and you will need all thos slots to fit a mwd, scram, web and injector.
exception here is probably the hyperion, but even with an overloaded ECCM, giving a total of 51pts str to the ship's sensors, you are still very vulnerable to ECM. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:13:00 -
[90]
The level of ignorance of ECM and ECCM in this thread is staggering.
It's obvious most here don't understand the basic mathematics behind probability, and most don't use ECM (or ECCM) on a regular basis. Probability is NOT an additive function. If you don't understand why, STOP making idiotic guesses about the capabilities of ECM....because you're probably wrong.
For the rest of you, pick a *realistic* setup, put that setup in a typical encounter, and crunch the numbers.
In the most simplistic terms:
A single ECCM mod will essentially double your sensor strength. This effectively cuts the chance of being jammed by 50%. You have doubled the chance of the ECM pilot missing a jam.
The significance of this should be obvious. However, if you still feel ECCM is worthless, that's fine by me....I'll just keep jamming the crap out of your ships.
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Kingwood
Amarr The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:44:00 -
[91]
Amarr obviously have a lot of midslots to spare for ECCM. Though it might be viable to swap out a web for an ECCM mod on a Harbinger. Not sure on that one.
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Kingwood
Amarr The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:53:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Kingwood on 12/01/2008 17:55:11 And btw, ECM is a little bit overpowered. We were in lowsec yesterday, and after me losing a duel to a corpmate, they found a pirate Typhoon in a belt, and decided to jump it. I warped in to watch (in my pod). So my gang mates (a Drake, a Megathron with rails, and a Falcon) jump it. Expectedly, the Phoons mates arrive in a Cerberus, a Drake, another BS, and another ship I don't remember) warp in on them. The Falcon JAMS ALL and thus saves the day. If that is not overpowered, I don't know what is.
Edit: By jams all I mean jam the heavy hitters, and allowing them to warp out.
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Seth Allasatre
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:10:00 -
[93]
ECCM is certainly not worthless but I still think, like others, that ECM should have some stacking penalty. ECM drones aren't a huge concern since they have a low chance to begin with, but each ECM module you fit should not get a full roll of the dice. A stacking penalty still allows someone to fit a ship for perma-jam but at least it gives the jammed in question a better chance.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:34:00 -
[94]
ECM is really only worthwhile to use on a dedicated ECM ship. All dedicated ECM ships have no tank and crap DPS. I'd hardly say it's 'overpowered.'
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:38:00 -
[95]
Originally by: GateScout ECM is really only worthwhile to use on a dedicated ECM ship. All dedicated ECM ships have no tank and crap DPS. I'd hardly say it's 'overpowered.'
Yeah because all the other recons and EAF have soooo much dps and tank. Failed argument. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:40:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 12/01/2008 18:40:40
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
But in game, the falcon isn't going to throw an entire rack of ECM on you. With only 1-2 ECM on you, you arn't going to be jammed that often.
Are you just ignoring the fact that you DONT need to perma jam everything to be effective? ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Oku Kee'lus
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:51:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Oku Kee''lus on 12/01/2008 18:53:27 Edited by: Oku Kee''lus on 12/01/2008 18:52:17
Originally by: Kingwood Amarr obviously have a lot of midslots to spare for ECCM. Though it might be viable to swap out a web for an ECCM mod on a Harbinger. Not sure on that one.
And Caldari tanks have a lot of midslots for tackling? Your point is what?
You can't fit one ship for every situation
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Maeltstome
Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:01:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark Furthermore ECM is chance based in he first place anyway - and those modules increasing the strength of a ship with 96% really pays off... you might not be immune but a ship really have to dedicate itself to ECM against such a ship.
Pinky
My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Somethings funky. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:20:00 -
[99]
Edited by: GateScout on 12/01/2008 19:20:33
Originally by: Maeltstome My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Your huginn will have a sensor strength of 58.
Please tell me the setup that will give someone a 75% chance jamming you... Assume lvl5 skills..... now ask yourself if this is a realistic fit.
The chance of jamming you with 1 t2 ecm jammer (all lvl5 sills) is approximately 20%. Are you really encountering ECM pilots that fit 4+ minmitar ECM jammers? That's rather a specific setup.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:30:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: GateScout ECM is really only worthwhile to use on a dedicated ECM ship. All dedicated ECM ships have no tank and crap DPS. I'd hardly say it's 'overpowered.'
Yeah because all the other recons and EAF have soooo much dps and tank. Failed argument.
Blackbird, Scorpion, etc... Compare those to similar cruisers and battleships. Notice any difference in DPS or Tank?
You fail at comprehension.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:36:00 -
[101]
Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 12/01/2008 19:20:33
Originally by: Maeltstome My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Your huginn will have a sensor strength of 58.
Please tell me the setup that will give someone a 75% chance jamming you... Assume lvl5 skills..... now ask yourself if this is a realistic fit.
The chance of jamming you with 1 t2 ecm jammer (all lvl5 sills) is approximately 20%. Are you really encountering ECM pilots that fit 4+ minmitar ECM jammers? That's rather a specific setup.
ok this might be a wrong assumption since I suck at maths, but let's take it like this:
3 racials by 20% chance of jamming, means, obviously 80% chances of miss.
first jammer misses. 80% chances for that happening. next jammer you throw at him will have 80% of those 80% chances of jamming that ship, means 64% chances of failing. it fails to jam, next jammer will have 80% of those 64% chances of failing, meaning around 51% chance of failing.
it behaves somewhat like this, however I must say again that I suck at maths and I might be totally wrong here. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:46:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 12/01/2008 19:20:33
Originally by: Maeltstome My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Your huginn will have a sensor strength of 58.
Please tell me the setup that will give someone a 75% chance jamming you... Assume lvl5 skills..... now ask yourself if this is a realistic fit.
The chance of jamming you with 1 t2 ecm jammer (all lvl5 sills) is approximately 20%. Are you really encountering ECM pilots that fit 4+ minmitar ECM jammers? That's rather a specific setup.
ok this might be a wrong assumption since I suck at maths, but let's take it like this:
3 racials by 20% chance of jamming, means, obviously 80% chances of miss.
first jammer misses. 80% chances for that happening. next jammer you throw at him will have 80% of those 80% chances of jamming that ship, means 64% chances of failing. it fails to jam, next jammer will have 80% of those 64% chances of failing, meaning around 51% chance of failing.
it behaves somewhat like this, however I must say again that I suck at maths and I might be totally wrong here.
Hmm this is a bit tricky. I think you meant the right thing but explained it bit wrong.
each jammer has 80% to fail no matter what happend earlier. It should be like this:
If you activate 2 jammers on 1 target the chance of you missing both jams is 0.8*0.8=0.64 If you activate 3 jammers on 1 target the chance of you missing all jams is 0.8^3=0.51
Important is that each jammer always has 80% chance of failing no matter what the jam before it did. It sounds confusing but thats math lolz. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:46:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 12/01/2008 19:20:33
Originally by: Maeltstome My huginn with a t2 eccm (racial specific) will get jammed by a rook 75% of the time. My tempest with an ECCM also likes getting jammed by hornet ec-300's.
Your huginn will have a sensor strength of 58.
Please tell me the setup that will give someone a 75% chance jamming you... Assume lvl5 skills..... now ask yourself if this is a realistic fit.
The chance of jamming you with 1 t2 ecm jammer (all lvl5 sills) is approximately 20%. Are you really encountering ECM pilots that fit 4+ minmitar ECM jammers? That's rather a specific setup.
ok this might be a wrong assumption since I suck at maths, but let's take it like this:
3 racials by 20% chance of jamming, means, obviously 80% chances of miss.
first jammer misses. 80% chances for that happening. next jammer you throw at him will have 80% of those 80% chances of jamming that ship, means 64% chances of failing. it fails to jam, next jammer will have 80% of those 64% chances of failing, meaning around 51% chance of failing.
it behaves somewhat like this, however I must say again that I suck at maths and I might be totally wrong here.
Hmm this is a bit tricky. I think you meant the right thing but explained it bit wrong.
each jammer has 80% to fail no matter what happend earlier. It should be like this:
If you activate 2 jammers on 1 target the chance of you missing both jams is 0.8*0.8=0.64 If you activate 3 jammers on 1 target the chance of you missing all jams is 0.8^3=0.51
Important is that each jammer always has 80% chance of failing no matter what the jam before it did. It sounds confusing but thats math lolz.
exactly what I was trying to say ---
planetary interaction idea! |
mia mia
Caldari Kudzu Collective
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:51:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Grimpak it behaves somewhat like this, however I must say again that I suck at maths and I might be totally wrong here.
Close.
4x T2 racial jammers with a 12 jamming strength will have a 61% chance of jamming your ECCM reinforced huginn.
5x T2 racial jammers would give you a 70% chance of being jammed.
6x t2 racial jammers gives you 76% chance of being jammed.
Of course, a single racial can *theoretically* perma-jam you.
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Eardianm
Darkness Inc. Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:55:00 -
[105]
Since we seem to be going with anecdotal > hard numbers (), here's my take. I've had great success with ECCM. In empire wars (as in, when I had modules nearby) I routinely would slap on a mid slot ECCM, and often a low slot as well, specifically to take out enemy ECM boats.
Took out multiple Rooks and a Scorp off the top of my head. They might get one jam off on me, but I'm sure they were forced to use more modules on me than they liked/planned.
It really only takes one or two boats specifically on anti-ecm duty to put the heat on them (scaled for engagement size, obviously). Load up a couple ECCM modules, and either force them to totally focus on you, losing the entire gang advantage, or get blowns up.
I personally like it currently, although I don't think the recent ECM buff was necessary. I hate the "one size fits all" fittings for every situation that people seem to want.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:57:00 -
[106]
so whats the chances of getting jammed by a scorp with two strength enhancers and 5 multis, vs 79 sensor strength over 5 cycles?
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Pan Zhu'Liang
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:58:00 -
[107]
so if 6 jammers with a 20% success rate were applied to the huggin in question it would if fact be jammed almost exactly 75% of the time.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:09:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Dr Fighter so whats the chances of getting jammed by a scorp with two strength enhancers and 5 multis, vs 79 sensor strength over 5 cycles?
Assuming a multi-spec is about 7.5 (lvl5 skills):
The chance of jamming a ship with a 79 sensor strength w/ 5 multi-specs over 5 cycles is approximately 90.5%
That's equivalent to having 25 jammers on the target.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:09:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 20:14:43 Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 20:10:32 I'd say being jammed 80% of the time is "being taken out of the fight"
Of course, I don't fly stabbed battleships like some people, so maybe being jammed 40-50% of the time removes them, because it takes them an extra 20 seconds to lock
Not to mention, 5 medium drones will rip a falcon to shreds in seconds. Of course, people seem to be unable to get a warp in point to fight it, so they complain.
I can see why ECM annoys some people, but to be honest, you should be jammed 80%+ of the time if the target has 6 ECM on you (with a ECCM). That's 6 dedicated midslots (and probably 3 lowslots and 2 rig slots) just to keep you jammed. That's most definately not overpowered.
1-2 ECM has a decent chance at jamming a non-ECCMed BS, but isn't reliable against a ECCM-reinforced setup.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 12/01/2008 18:40:40
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
But in game, the falcon isn't going to throw an entire rack of ECM on you. With only 1-2 ECM on you, you arn't going to be jammed that often.
Are you just ignoring the fact that you DONT need to perma jam everything to be effective?
If you have an ECCM on (a BS, commandship, or recon), you arn't going to be removed from the fight, unless again, you consider 50% chance of being jammed "removed".
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:11:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Grimpak on 12/01/2008 20:15:28
Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang so if 6 jammers with a 20% success rate were applied to the huggin in question it would if fact be jammed almost exactly 75% of the time.
yeah sorta like that.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu 1-2 ECM has a decent chance at jamming a non-ECCMed BS, but isn't reliable against a ECCM-reinforced setup.
no, it becomes 2-3 jammers, thus the comment I made up there about the ECCM ships makes a falcon/rook permajam 2-3 ships instead 2-4 ships when ECCM is applied
btw by perrmajam, what I meant is something being jammed more than 60% of the time. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
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Steppa
Gallente Dawn of Fire Te-Ka
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:18:00 -
[111]
How do rigs figure into this discussion?
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:18:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 12/01/2008 20:15:28
Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang so if 6 jammers with a 20% success rate were applied to the huggin in question it would if fact be jammed almost exactly 75% of the time.
yeah sorta like that.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu 1-2 ECM has a decent chance at jamming a non-ECCMed BS, but isn't reliable against a ECCM-reinforced setup.
no, it becomes 2-3 jammers, thus the comment I made up there about the ECCM ships makes a falcon/rook permajam 2-3 ships instead 2-4 ships when ECCM is applied
btw by perrmajam, what I meant is something being jammed more than 60% of the time.
Assuming you are the only person using ECCM. It becomes 1-2 if all 3 of his targets are using them, and that's with good luck.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 20:18:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/01/2008 20:10:32 I'd say being jammed 80% of the time is "being taken out of the fight"
Which would require the ECM pilot to basically fit all ECM modules of the same race. That's useless in most fights.
A more realistic fit would 2 of each race or a combo of multi-specs and racial.
If you're blessed to know the type of single ship you're engaging and you have time to REFIT, the ECM pilot will jam you. Of course, that's not realistic.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.12 21:41:00 -
[114]
I was wrong with my examples (hurr math), so sorry about that.
The issue is because ECM is chance based, ECCM doesn't work as well as it should for taking up a critical slot while serving no purpose other than preventing getting jammed. If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it. This is untrue of Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors against ships fitted to counter them; a single Sensor Booster counters a specialized dampening ship very effectively. Furthermore, while the ECM ships may be poor at taking damage, they can easily sit outside of drone range and perma-jam any ship with enough speed to close range.
As a solely dedicated counter module, ECCM should provide more resistance to ECM, OR give it a secondary bonus that would give it some regular usage like SBs/TCs.
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2008.01.12 21:50:00 -
[115]
Edited by: J Valkor on 12/01/2008 21:50:40 Come on now folks.
There are plenty of EOS pilots out there. Make them use the warfare link to increase resistance to being jammed. No slots for you and an added layer of protection. Fit ECCM on your ships for even better results. If it is that common to be ****** by ECM how can you afford not to give all your ships a resistance bonus to it?
For even more fun carry ECM light drones. The second you see a recon, lock and send your ECM drones at em. They can't jam without a lock.
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William DeMeo
Gallente the united
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Posted - 2008.01.12 22:24:00 -
[116]
Originally by: The ArchWarder People who say its chanced based make me laugh, i can get perma jammed in a recon that has 25 sensor strength by an Average rook pilot.
You sacrifice alot to fit an ECCM ( shield tank, ewar, scram,erb ect )
Imo Mid slot ECCM should make you invulnerable to ECM and low slot ECCM should be same effectiveness as current mid slot version.
LOL yeah, let's make it so that 1 eccm makes you invulnerable to ecm because that will be very balanced???????!!! right.
ECM is not overpowered, only dedicated ecm ships can ecm a target effectively. Please can we for once let a recon ship perform it's role? Please, lay off trying to get totally valid ways to play the game nerfed because you can't figure out how to fight them.
But nah, after one thing is changed people start whining about the next. Just like nos, and damps and basically everything ingame that you couldn't beat by simple pressing f1-f8 ecm will get nerfed into uselessness again.
GG Yarr |
GateScout
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Posted - 2008.01.12 23:29:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it.
I disagree. Show me a realistic ECM ship setup that has a probability of jamming a random battleship equipped with ECCM that is greater that 60% (i.e. "very likely").
Note: An ECCM'd BS will require 4 *racial* t2 jammers to get 60% probability of jamming.
I'll wait.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 00:34:00 -
[118]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Ariel Dawn If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it.
I disagree. Show me a realistic ECM ship setup that has a probability of jamming a random battleship equipped with ECCM that is greater that 60% (i.e. "very likely").
Note: An ECCM'd BS will require 4 *racial* t2 jammers to get 60% probability of jamming.
I'll wait.
Likewise, show me a Dampening or TD ship that can use their EWAR that can still do their job against ships fitting the counter. They're almost completely shutdown and the counter-module is still useful out of counter the respecitve EWAR counterpart.
Since each ECM module has its own independent chance of jamming, the pilot turns them on one by one until they get a jam. When you can fit 7 of them (most falcon setups), their targets are sitting pretty doing nothing.
I don't think adding a secondary bonus to ECCM would really be a problem and would encourage using it as a solution. Once nano-ship whiners move onto a new topic, ECM is the most likely target, and having it directly nerfed instead of a counter boost would likely be far less desirable to those who use it, eh?
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.13 00:52:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Ariel Dawn If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it.
I disagree. Show me a realistic ECM ship setup that has a probability of jamming a random battleship equipped with ECCM that is greater that 60% (i.e. "very likely").
Note: An ECCM'd BS will require 4 *racial* t2 jammers to get 60% probability of jamming.
I'll wait.
Likewise, show me a Dampening or TD ship that can use their EWAR that can still do their job against ships fitting the counter. They're almost completely shutdown and the counter-module is still useful out of counter the respecitve EWAR counterpart.
Since each ECM module has its own independent chance of jamming, the pilot turns them on one by one until they get a jam. When you can fit 7 of them (most falcon setups), their targets are sitting pretty doing nothing.
I don't think adding a secondary bonus to ECCM would really be a problem and would encourage using it as a solution. Once nano-ship whiners move onto a new topic, ECM is the most likely target, and having it directly nerfed instead of a counter boost would likely be far less desirable to those who use it, eh?
Indeed. in my end-year predictions for EVE, after nano-ships are nerfed, again, we will see a nerf on ecm ships. again. why? the whine crowd of course. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 02:22:00 -
[120]
Ug, I hope they don't nerf speed or ECM. Not that I fly nano ships, but they are the only reason people fly in smaller gangs anymore, and it would wreck gameplay for a lot of pilots.
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2008.01.13 03:27:00 -
[121]
ECM doesn't need a nerf. Multispecs have low jam strength and you can't just assume you'll always be able to match racial jammers to your enemies.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.13 03:29:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Xequecal ECM doesn't need a nerf. Multispecs have low jam strength and you can't just assume you'll always be able to match racial jammers to your enemies.
tell that to the whine brigade. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 03:57:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Xequecal ECM doesn't need a nerf. Multispecs have low jam strength and you can't just assume you'll always be able to match racial jammers to your enemies.
tell that to the whine brigade.
Aye. And of course, CCP will over react like in the case of Gallente drone ships. Drones no longer instantly recharging shields solved the balance issues of the Myrmidon since no amount of skill would save their drones; but they took it a step further.
Flying and training for a dedicated ECM ship is not for everyone, many of them doomed to fly them forever due to pressure from gang-mates. They should be able to control the battlefield when left unmolested; not calling for an ECM nerf.
If ECCM was to receive a secondary bonus, what would fit best? Signature radius is the one of the few remaining ship stats that have no modules that modify it, could be useful to increase lock times on the ship/reduce received damage.
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Stefan F
Enrave Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2008.01.13 04:33:00 -
[124]
People should do a maths test before being allowed to reply in this topic. The whole point is people who are losing there I-win button. They now have to sacrifice a midslot to a eccm so then can no longer AND control range (MWD) AND keep from warping (Scram) AND hold in place (web) AND have unlimited cap (for a short amount of time, with boosters).
You guys just cant have it all at once. Accept it or go play another game.
ECM ships are easily beatable: FOF missiles. I really laugh out loud when i encounter a ECM ship. Load FOF and they have 10s to get the hell out before their paper tanks get crushed. Just like minmatar is best at killing theirselves (huginn/rapier vs vagabond) so are caldari (FOF light/heavy/cruise vs ecm)
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.13 04:39:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Stefan F People should do a maths test before being allowed to reply in this topic. The whole point is people who are losing there I-win button. They now have to sacrifice a midslot to a eccm so then can no longer AND control range (MWD) AND keep from warping (Scram) AND hold in place (web) AND have unlimited cap (for a short amount of time, with boosters).
You guys just cant have it all at once. Accept it or go play another game.
ECM ships are easily beatable: FOF missiles. I really laugh out loud when i encounter a ECM ship. Load FOF and they have 10s to get the hell out before their paper tanks get crushed. Just like minmatar is best at killing theirselves (huginn/rapier vs vagabond) so are caldari (FOF light/heavy/cruise vs ecm)
Originally by: Grimpak tell that to the whine brigade.
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planetary interaction idea! |
Xequecal
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Posted - 2008.01.13 04:46:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Stefan F People should do a maths test before being allowed to reply in this topic. The whole point is people who are losing there I-win button. They now have to sacrifice a midslot to a eccm so then can no longer AND control range (MWD) AND keep from warping (Scram) AND hold in place (web) AND have unlimited cap (for a short amount of time, with boosters).
You guys just cant have it all at once. Accept it or go play another game.
ECM ships are easily beatable: FOF missiles. I really laugh out loud when i encounter a ECM ship. Load FOF and they have 10s to get the hell out before their paper tanks get crushed. Just like minmatar is best at killing theirselves (huginn/rapier vs vagabond) so are caldari (FOF light/heavy/cruise vs ecm)
While I don't think ECM is overpowered, this is a non-argument. You could "counter" RSDs with FoF missiles as well, and those were still rightfully nerfed to hell because of how overpowered they were. Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar can't fit FoF missiles to their ships. Hell, a good number of Caldari ships can't either, Siege launchers and HAM launchers don't accept FoF missiles.
ECM requires you to dedicate your low slots AND your mid slots to ECM, meaning you can't tank, tackle, or do any DPS. It's also chance based. That's why it's not overpowered.
ECM is only a "problem" because Gallente is so grossly overpowered that ECM pilots can just fit a full rack of anti-magnetometric jammers and be pretty much assured of having multiple matching targets to hit. Anyone remember that dev blog that showed almost as many Gallente ships in space as Amarr + Minmatar combined?
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.13 05:10:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Stefan F People should do a maths test before being allowed to reply in this topic. The whole point is people who are losing there I-win button. They now have to sacrifice a midslot to a eccm so then can no longer AND control range (MWD) AND keep from warping (Scram) AND hold in place (web) AND have unlimited cap (for a short amount of time, with boosters).
You guys just cant have it all at once. Accept it or go play another game.
ECM ships are easily beatable: FOF missiles. I really laugh out loud when i encounter a ECM ship. Load FOF and they have 10s to get the hell out before their paper tanks get crushed. Just like minmatar is best at killing theirselves (huginn/rapier vs vagabond) so are caldari (FOF light/heavy/cruise vs ecm)
You must not be playing the same game as I am. Good luck hitting my EW ships from 220+km with anything at all, much less FoFs.
I'm not too worried about it. Already have 2x max skilled Falcon pilots, with more on the way. It doesn't matter how much DPS you have or how much tank you have, as long as you have more EW than the enemy.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.13 09:01:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/01/2008 09:01:33
Originally by: Xequecal ECM doesn't need a nerf. Multispecs have low jam strength and you can't just assume you'll always be able to match racial jammers to your enemies.
Uhm you do know ecm pilots dont fit full rack of multies in their mids. They fit one for each race and then a few multies in the rest maybe.
Could you also explain why no one in their right mind would choose damp/td/tp instead of ecm to disrupt an enemy?
The only use for TD/Nos-amarr ew is to kill a capitals cap while killing it. Ecm outperforms it in every way other then that.
tp/web-minmatar one is good against nano, this is a totally different role. This kills nanos, but ecm disrupts them just as good but doesnt kill.
damps-gallente, well this is just a subpar form of ecm that has been nerfed in last patch ontop of it.
How is it that ecm doesnt need a nerf? Or ok you might say the other form of ew needs a boost (wich is the same as nerfing the one that isnt boosted) ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Antodias
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.01.13 11:41:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Xequecal Anyone remember that dev blog that showed almost as many Gallente ships in space as Amarr + Minmatar combined?
No, it's pretty much always been Caldari:
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Politically Correct since 2007. No really. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.13 11:51:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Antodias Gallente are especially susceptible to TD/Nos or Neut combo.
This is not true. TD+Nos/Neut kills amarr most effective amongst the 4 races. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
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Antodias
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.01.13 12:04:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Antodias Gallente are especially susceptible to TD/Nos or Neut combo.
This is not true. TD+Nos/Neut kills amarr most effective amongst the 4 races.
With TDs it usually depends on ammo type. In the T2 pulses and blasters, pulses won't be as badly affected because smart people carry T1 crystals to help tracking. Maybe with the introduction of faction ammo its a bit different but that's not so widely used yet.
Neuts I'll give you. I haven't used Amarr ships against Nos so much lately so I can't comment on that. ------------------------------------
Politically Correct since 2007. No really. |
Cautet
North Siders
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Posted - 2008.01.14 01:54:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Cautet on 14/01/2008 01:57:52 Edited by: Cautet on 14/01/2008 01:57:03 Counters to ECM:
ECCM Sensor Damps Speed FoF (with sensor damps or speed) Drones (with sensor damps or speed) ECM Sniping Fly Amarr (if fighting against familiar opponents every now and again change racial mixture of your gang, you will notice suddenly no one gets jammed.)
You get a free % chance of ignoring it anyway. Once you assign a vagabond to go drop drones on a falcon it will run away if it manages to ecm the vagabond before dying. Same with a crow with fof missiles. Put a purifer on it to damp and almost single volley the falcon. Or any of the many many other tactics. Most times a falcon will run if a ship gets close to it, no matter what ship.
This doesn't make ecm rubbish, but it does make it balanced.
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Princess Xenia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.01.14 02:43:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Antodias
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Antodias Gallente are especially susceptible to TD/Nos or Neut combo.
This is not true. TD+Nos/Neut kills amarr most effective amongst the 4 races.
With TDs it usually depends on ammo type. In the T2 pulses and blasters, pulses won't be as badly affected because smart people carry T1 crystals to help tracking. Maybe with the introduction of faction ammo its a bit different but that's not so widely used yet.
Neuts I'll give you. I haven't used Amarr ships against Nos so much lately so I can't comment on that.
LOL at "Pulses won't be as badly affected" LOL...
What is the advantage of pulse??? Turret range for mid-range engagement...
What happens when pulse get TDed??? Abysymal range... and even lower tracking (remember pulse has WORST tracking amonsgt the short-range turrets)...
How do Gallente blaster overcome TD??? web and guess what.. web-range IS their engagement range???
How about Minmatar autocannons??? yup... their tracking get pwned... fair enough if they speed-tank its called EW for a reason...
Again how about Amarr pulse?? pwned range AND tracking... Can u feel the irony??? Amarr getting pwn by their own EW THE MOST...
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.14 06:30:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Stefan F People should do a maths test before being allowed to reply in this topic. The whole point is people who are losing there I-win button. They now have to sacrifice a midslot to a eccm so then can no longer AND control range (MWD) AND keep from warping (Scram) AND hold in place (web) AND have unlimited cap (for a short amount of time, with boosters).
You guys just cant have it all at once. Accept it or go play another game.
ECM ships are easily beatable: FOF missiles. I really laugh out loud when i encounter a ECM ship. Load FOF and they have 10s to get the hell out before their paper tanks get crushed. Just like minmatar is best at killing theirselves (huginn/rapier vs vagabond) so are caldari (FOF light/heavy/cruise vs ecm)
You must not be playing the same game as I am. Good luck hitting my EW ships from 220+km with anything at all, much less FoFs.
I'm not too worried about it. Already have 2x max skilled Falcon pilots, with more on the way. It doesn't matter how much DPS you have or how much tank you have, as long as you have more EW than the enemy.
I have 924 falcon pilots, and I run them on a single computer with a macro.
Stop spouting bull****. I have a feeling you've never even been in a falcon, let alone double your number of alt pilots weekly.
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ShardowRhino
Caldari The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.01.14 09:20:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Xequecal
No, the problem is if you are low SP and have at least one other person with you, a Blackbird is many times better than anything else you could possibly fly. There is simply no comparison to any other Tech 1 ship in the game in terms of destructive power.
"Destructive power"??? Are you sure about that? The blackbird is as tough as a soda can. So a 2v2 fight, the bb is going to get blasted to bits leaving his friend at the mercy of the 2 hostiles.
ECM eats up cap. A low SP character is not going to be able to run a full rack of ECM for very long.
A nub is going to have low ECM strengths. In addition to his low ranges. The shorter his ECM range is, his vulnerability increases.
Fittings also effect him.If he goes full multispec his going to be hit by the cap drain much quicker. His ECM range is also going to be decreased. His ECM strength is going to be lower then If he had fit to go against a specific race,considering he will have low skills he wont have many modifiers to help him out with such.
Lets not forget that the BB fits it's ECM in the same slots as it would need in order to tank. A certain little ship with SDs doesn't have that problem. Even if the SD ship can fit 1 mod to give it a bit of tank, it is already tougher then a BB.
Then you can go back to the fact that a BB's ECM is chance based.That means the nub is going to be burning up his cap in a flash,with no tank at all, trying to jam at a short range with only a few weapons to defend itself. Slap on an ECCM mod( 1 not a whole rack) and chances are your going to nullify the little chicken nugget of a ship.
SDs have to pay for their "always on" benifits. Just like ECM has to pay for its "sometimes on but when it does it fully jams" benefits. Not only is it chance based but the mods eat up our midslots which is strangely enough exactly where we need slots in order to shield tank.
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