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Arthur Frayn
Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 01:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 13/01/2008 01:12:32 This must be an old argument, but here goes with two examples:
Fed Navy Antimatter L = 55.2 base damage. Void L = 56 base damage Javelin L = 56 base damage
Void hurts your cap and gimps your tracking speed but doesn't hurt your range as much as antimatter. Javelin hurts your tracking speed a little bit, lowers your top speed and utterly kills your range. I see void is somewhat useful, but is the extra range worth half the tracking speed?
Caldari Navy torp: 517 dmg 9000 base range 450m exp. radius 250m/sec exp. velocity
Rage torp: 540 dmg 8800 base range 530m exp. radius 100m/sec exp. velocity
I suppose Rage torps would be useful for hitting capitals, but who wouldn't splash out on Dread Guristas for that kind of work? I don't see how Rage would be more useful against battleships or smaller when navy torps will be equally good and need fewer painters for the same job.
I don't think t2 ammo should be boosted. I think faction ammo should have different benefits instead of their damage boost. Give them slightly better range perhaps than their t1 counterparts or something else entirely.
-- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes. |
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2008.01.13 01:09:00 -
[2]
if you can afford it (or smart enough to stockpile it from missions/lp), yeah, faction ammo is the ****nit
t2 is nice, but you really have to work around the drawbacks. faction has no drawbacks. thats all the farther you need to go
old argument? easy argument, not much to it. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
Arthur Frayn
Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 01:14:00 -
[3]
Originally by: HankMurphy if you can afford it (or smart enough to stockpile it from missions/lp), yeah, faction ammo is the ****nit
t2 is nice, but you really have to work around the drawbacks. faction has no drawbacks. thats all the farther you need to go
old argument? easy argument, not much to it.
Who doesn't stockpile 20,000 navy antimatter charges and 10,000 navy cruise missiles? It's become so easy to get them that they seem to make some t2 ammo obsolete.
-- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes. |
Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 01:33:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Who doesn't stockpile 20,000 navy antimatter charges and 10,000 navy cruise missiles? It's become so easy to get them that they seem to make some t2 ammo obsolete.
This. Faction ammo is so cheap that even mission runners use it instead of "cheaper" t2. Reasons are obvious: its better in every aspect. While there might be some use for void and hail its as rare as finding use for cap flux coils.
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Arthur Frayn
Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 01:45:00 -
[5]
Another idea I had is to remove all t2 ammo drawbacks like increased cap need, reduced tracking, reduced ship speed, etc. That would make it worthwhile again, imo. An in-universe explanation would be "recent advances in t2 armaments technology has led to, blah blah, etc".
-- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes. |
Laboratus
Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.01.13 02:24:00 -
[6]
This thread is one of the regular whine threads on these forums...
Faction items are higher meta level than their T2 counterparts, and hence should perform better.
When T2 ammo was nerfed, the penalties werent really thought through. The point of T2 ammo was to add functionalities, not just "more damage". That was kinda lost back there somewhere. They should maybe change short range T2 ammo into +tracking or - capasitor use or something like that. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Arthur Frayn
Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 05:49:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 13/01/2008 05:50:32
Originally by: Laboratus This thread is one of the regular whine threads on these forums...
Faction items are higher meta level than their T2 counterparts, and hence should perform better.
When T2 ammo was nerfed, the penalties werent really thought through. The point of T2 ammo was to add functionalities, not just "more damage". That was kinda lost back there somewhere. They should maybe change short range T2 ammo into +tracking or - capasitor use or something like that.
Do some research. This indicates that faction missiles have a meta level lower than tech 2. Faction charges don't seem to have a meta level at all.
And this is not a whine thread. I love using faction ammo. I never leave home without it. Don't throw insults where they're unnecessary and infantile. Especially when you end up agreeing with my original idea of changing the ammo in some way.
-- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes. |
Niffetin
Gallente CONsordium Infinate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 06:27:00 -
[8]
Un-nerf high damage ammo!
--- Teeheee! |
Susa Ou
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Posted - 2008.01.13 06:55:00 -
[9]
When it comes to the high damage T2 ammo, yya, faction is usually preferable because of the tracking/explosion radius issues t2 have. However, when it comes to the likes of barrage or scorch - I am still partial to their uses. . .but those are not the 'high-damage' variants.
In short, faction ammo is simply too good to ignore.
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Arthur Frayn
Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 07:20:00 -
[10]
I agree about long range/precision ammo. They work exactly as they should. This is about the t2 "high damage" charges and missiles that make no sense to use in any situation. I'd go so far as to favour t1 over them anyday.
-- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes. |
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.01.13 07:49:00 -
[11]
I'd say that in 90% of cases, faction ammo is a better choice than T2 (without considering the immense difference in price of course, but with the LP store it's actually pretty easy to get ahold of these days). If you want absolute maximum damage then T2 is potentially the better choice, though generally speaking the damage difference is small enough that the drawbacks outweigh them.
I'd say that precision missiles have their uses though. The drake goes from an okay drone and slower (under 3k/s) frigate supression ship to a death sentance to the above with precision heavies, and light precision missiles are the only weapon that has much of a shot at deliver damage to a good nano ship (without the use of a web of course)
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2008.01.13 07:59:00 -
[12]
Minmatar T2 AC ammo is good. Barrage is great for the extra range and Hail is great when you want to get up close. Faction EMP is sweet vs Shield tankers but vs armor tankers it the T2 versions that come out tops.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:21:00 -
[13]
I can say this:
Scorch is fine. Conflag has too much penalty, either needs more damage or less penalty
Aurora has too much tracking penalty for the small dps boost. Gleam is the worst t2 crystal. Too much range penalty, it should be half of what it is. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I can say this:
Scorch is fine. Conflag has too much penalty, either needs more damage or less penalty
Aurora has too much tracking penalty for the small dps boost. Gleam is the worst t2 crystal. Too much range penalty, it should be half of what it is.
And if you do some research (even based on your post) you will see that the ammo ppl have problem with is CLOSE RANGE ammo. Rage, Fury, Conflag, Gleam, etc. Long range ammo are fine, because they add more damage than comparable faction crystal (for penalties to tracking).
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Yakov Draken Minmatar T2 AC ammo is good. Barrage is great for the extra range and Hail is great when you want to get up close. Faction EMP is sweet vs Shield tankers but vs armor tankers it the T2 versions that come out tops.
The real reason that minmatar T2 ammo is good is that minmatar high damage T1 ammo (and thus their faction ammo as well) is gimped compared to the others (44/40 vs. 48/44 base damage on BS level), while their T2 ammo is not. This is one of the inconsistencies in EVE that irritates me most.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I can say this:
Scorch is fine. Conflag has too much penalty, either needs more damage or less penalty
Aurora has too much tracking penalty for the small dps boost. Gleam is the worst t2 crystal. Too much range penalty, it should be half of what it is.
And if you do some research (even based on your post) you will see that the ammo ppl have problem with is CLOSE RANGE ammo. Rage, Fury, Conflag, Gleam, etc. Long range ammo are fine, because they add more damage than comparable faction crystal (for penalties to tracking).
FYI aurora is not a close range ammo. Its the beam long range crystal. I suggest you look at its tracking and compare to faction radio and see that aurora has too much tracking penalty. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:57:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/01/2008 10:57:07
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
FYI aurora is not a close range ammo. Its the beam long range crystal. I suggest you look at its tracking and compare to faction radio and see that aurora has too much tracking penalty.
All long range ammos are like that, really; worth using on short-range guns (because tracking doesn't hurt you that much) and total crap on long-range guns mostly.
Basically, the only useful kinds of ammo are long-range T2 ammos for short-range guns. T2 high-damage ammo is preety much the crap whatever race you look at; you're effecitively doing more damage with faction due to misses/etc. Even in Minmatar case where T1 has less raw damage then other races.
Essentially, penalties for short-range T2 ammo are too severe. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:59:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 13/01/2008 11:03:51 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 13/01/2008 11:01:44
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
FYI aurora is not a close range ammo. Its the beam long range crystal. I suggest you look at its tracking and compare to faction radio and see that aurora has too much tracking penalty.
And about 1,5x more damage. And longer range. Guess why EVERY t2 amarr sniper uses aurora.
EDIT: Also WHERE i suggested that aurora is close range ammo? Even my post says: conflagration and gleam as examples of close range crystals.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.13 11:00:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Goumindong on 13/01/2008 11:00:51 Long range t2 ammo for long range weapons is perfectly fine on frigates and battleships.
Hail is still valuable. You over-estimate the ability of ships to incur transversal velocity.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.13 11:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 13/01/2008 11:03:51 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 13/01/2008 11:01:44
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
FYI aurora is not a close range ammo. Its the beam long range crystal. I suggest you look at its tracking and compare to faction radio and see that aurora has too much tracking penalty.
And about 1,5x more damage. And longer range. Guess why EVERY t2 amarr sniper uses aurora.
EDIT: Also WHERE i suggested that aurora is close range ammo? Even my post says: conflagration and gleam as examples of close range crystals.
Thats because amarr have the shortest sniping weapons of all races. You really really need every inch of range you can get out of your ammo. For battleship sniping this isnt a huge issue though since targets wont be moving that fast. Frigs manage with aurora aswell because of high tracking mostly.
The problem with aurora is when applied to ships like zealot snipers. The tracking penalty is so huge that it interferes too much with your role as anti support sniper. Cruisers and frigs move way too fast these days.
So I suggest you take a sniper hac like zealot then go to tracking guide and fill in values with aurora and with amarr navy radio and youll see why the tracking penalty hurts. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
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7shining7one7
Quafe Paladins
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Posted - 2008.01.13 11:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 13/01/2008 01:12:32 This must be an old argument, but here goes with two examples:
Fed Navy Antimatter L = 55.2 base damage. Void L = 56 base damage Javelin L = 56 base damage
Void hurts your cap and gimps your tracking speed but doesn't hurt your range as much as antimatter. Javelin hurts your tracking speed a little bit, lowers your top speed and utterly kills your range. I see void is somewhat useful, but is the extra range worth half the tracking speed?
Caldari Navy torp: 517 dmg 9000 base range 450m exp. radius 250m/sec exp. velocity
Rage torp: 540 dmg 8800 base range 530m exp. radius 100m/sec exp. velocity
I suppose Rage torps would be useful for hitting capitals, but who wouldn't splash out on Dread Guristas for that kind of work? I don't see how Rage would be more useful against battleships or smaller when navy torps will be equally good and need fewer painters for the same job.
I don't think t2 ammo should be boosted. I think faction ammo should have different benefits instead of their damage boost. Give them slightly better range perhaps than their t1 counterparts or something else entirely.
aren't you forgetting the 8% extra to the dmg multiplier for the t2 turret? (the specialization skill at IV) i think that's what your missing.
only t2 turrets can use t2 ammo.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.13 11:49:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/01/2008 11:55:17
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 13/01/2008 11:03:51 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 13/01/2008 11:01:44
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
FYI aurora is not a close range ammo. Its the beam long range crystal. I suggest you look at its tracking and compare to faction radio and see that aurora has too much tracking penalty.
And about 1,5x more damage. And longer range. Guess why EVERY t2 amarr sniper uses aurora.
EDIT: Also WHERE i suggested that aurora is close range ammo? Even my post says: conflagration and gleam as examples of close range crystals.
I explained my view on all the ammo (since the topic really doesnt say short range ammo discussion only) and you said (semi-flamed):
"And if you do some research (even based on your post) you will see that the ammo ppl have problem with is CLOSE RANGE ammo"
..where I had explained that there was a problem with one of the long ranged ones too. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 12:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Thats because amarr have the shortest sniping weapons of all races. You really really need every inch of range you can get out of your ammo.
Then why t2 mega pilots use spike and t2 pest pilots use (forgot the name ;p) - both long range t2 ammo? Only rokh can use t1 ammo to fire far and tbh i saw em using spike anyways.
Quote:
The problem with aurora is when applied to ships like zealot snipers. The tracking penalty is so huge that it interferes too much with your role as anti support sniper. Cruisers and frigs move way too fast these days.
Dont use zealots for this role? Eagles are better anti-support ships anyways. And for ranges under 100km just use vaga. Yes, ofc you can use zealot (as you can use rail deimos) but there are just better ships for same role.
Quote:
So I suggest you take a sniper hac like zealot then go to tracking guide and fill in values with aurora and with amarr navy radio and youll see why the tracking penalty hurts.
Thing above is the reason why i will never use zealot as anti support. Curse and sacri is much better: curse at knocking down small tacklers (frig/dessy sized) while sacri at cruiser and up.
Anyways when it comes to ammo, still most of closerange ammo is crap compared to faction. And most of longrange ammo finds its uses. Which is the point. Even when conflag costs 1/2 of amarr navy MF i prefer to use MF because of lack of penalties and more shots (~1000 for conflag vs ~4000 for MF).
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 12:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: 7shining7one7
aren't you forgetting the 8% extra to the dmg multiplier for the t2 turret? (the specialization skill at IV) i think that's what your missing.
only t2 turrets can use t2 ammo.
No. Because t1 (and faction) ammo in t2 turret still get bonus from specialisation. And discussion is only abt t2 ammo vs faction ammo (turrets are ok when it comes to t1 vs t2).
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7shining7one7
Quafe Paladins
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Posted - 2008.01.13 12:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: 7shining7one7
aren't you forgetting the 8% extra to the dmg multiplier for the t2 turret? (the specialization skill at IV) i think that's what your missing.
only t2 turrets can use t2 ammo.
No. Because t1 (and faction) ammo in t2 turret still get bonus from specialisation. And discussion is only abt t2 ammo vs faction ammo (turrets are ok when it comes to t1 vs t2).
your right
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.01.13 12:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Do some research. This indicates that faction missiles have a meta level lower than tech 2. Faction charges don't seem to have a meta level at all.
And this is not a whine thread. I love using faction ammo. I never leave home without it. Don't throw insults where they're unnecessary and infantile. Especially when you end up agreeing with my original idea of changing the ammo in some way.
That is a problem with ****ed up implementation. Other meta progressions go from T1 to named to T2 to faction to deadspace and officers.
And this indeed is a whine thread. It is like all the others on the same subject. Same arguments, same rebuttals. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.13 14:20:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/01/2008 14:21:01
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Thats because amarr have the shortest sniping weapons of all races. You really really need every inch of range you can get out of your ammo.
Then why t2 mega pilots use spike and t2 pest pilots use (forgot the name ;p) - both long range t2 ammo? Only rokh can use t1 ammo to fire far and tbh i saw em using spike anyways.
Quote:
The problem with aurora is when applied to ships like zealot snipers. The tracking penalty is so huge that it interferes too much with your role as anti support sniper. Cruisers and frigs move way too fast these days.
Dont use zealots for this role? Eagles are better anti-support ships anyways. And for ranges under 100km just use vaga. Yes, ofc you can use zealot (as you can use rail deimos) but there are just better ships for same role.
Quote:
So I suggest you take a sniper hac like zealot then go to tracking guide and fill in values with aurora and with amarr navy radio and youll see why the tracking penalty hurts.
Thing above is the reason why i will never use zealot as anti support. Curse and sacri is much better: curse at knocking down small tacklers (frig/dessy sized) while sacri at cruiser and up.
Anyways when it comes to ammo, still most of closerange ammo is crap compared to faction. And most of longrange ammo finds its uses. Which is the point. Even when conflag costs 1/2 of amarr navy MF i prefer to use MF because of lack of penalties and more shots (~1000 for conflag vs ~4000 for MF).
I dunno about killing inties in a sacri tbh...
and what is the role of the zealot? Because if it cant even snipe then it really sucks. Cant tank, cant gank.... ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.13 14:49:00 -
[28]
hi-damage ammos need a rethink since faction ammo came.
why using void that uses more cap, cuts your falloff range and tracking, when you can use faction AM for a bit less damage, but none of the drawbacks above?
same goes for every other ammo, specially gleam and javelin. ammo that cuts your ammount of shield down?
extended range ammos however are good as they are now: mid-range damage for extended range and less tracking. I call it balanced. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research
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Posted - 2008.01.13 15:25:00 -
[29]
Is this the same for High-Range ammo? I wouldn't know, because I haven't checked, but I thought that it'd be the same. Do any faction hybrid charges give like a 75% range increase with moderate damage or something similar? _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa or Itamo to join! |
TheEndofTheWorld
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Posted - 2008.01.13 15:34:00 -
[30]
Hail and Conflag are good.
Hail does not get the minmatar ammo damage penalty. (good dps on Minmatar ac ships)
Conflag has a bit better thermal : ratio compared to AN MF.
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