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Ur235
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2008.01.15 11:49:00 -
[271]
Edited by: Ur235 on 15/01/2008 11:49:45
 Originally by: Lord Frost
You have all these mods, all these weapons, all these defenses, and you make SPEED the number one choice for all pvpers. Geeeee... let's go fight... zip zip zippy... can't catch me... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. One man knocking off a dozen people one-by-one cause he's got an uber wtfpwnage piece of turd lame ship and tactic.
I just had to quote that statement for roflcakes purpose 
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Andreask14
Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula
Dragons Of Oceans
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Posted - 2008.01.15 12:17:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 15/01/2008 12:18:08
Originally by: Tzar'rim
So you mean a team of 2 players is a blob? Or do you mean that you want to be invulnerable to the defending force when you enter their station system which they worked hard for to build up?
2 players isnt a blob, YET. but the one ship will call friends if it cant run, which it cant if it isnt speedy, thus the solo situation tunrns into a gang or gank-fest. You know that there are no 2vs2, or very rarely, its either you alone versus one or many or both sides call the cavalry.
Nanos are the new WCS indeed, but only because nerfing WCS in the first place was a wrong decision. WCS was the module that allowed competitive (in ISK) solo play, and, as if i hadnt stressed it enough, solo play is what the people want, not blobs. Small gang is an illusion, at least from my experience with alliance warfare, it only happens once a dark moon.
Today, nanos allow competitive (in ISK) solo play, and thats why the players like it. Take it away and people will either find a new way to create solo ships or die in blobs where no single ship has any freedom of choice because all must thoughtlessly shoot the primary or, in the future, REP the primary.
Speed isnt eve, but competitive solo play should be.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2008.01.15 12:48:00 -
[273]
bizzarely, despite forum whiner's assurances that everybody is driving around in snaked-nano-hacs doing 10,000,000k/ms and generally making a nuisance of themselves, i don't see pilots going that fast very often.
*again. |
Faydelm
Caldari
Model Of Aggression
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Posted - 2008.01.15 13:08:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Interesting thread, everyone is talking around the real issue. That issue is the combat philosophy of Eve, of doing what can be done to force players to commit to combat instead of hit and run. No one wants to loose a ship, so people will do what they can not to loose a ship, WCS, nanno, EW, blobs, they're all the same thing, trying to avoid loss.
In nature, the hunters fail more often than they succeed. In war, a soldier will miss the enemy much more often than he will hit the enemy. In football a player will miss the goal more often than he will make a goal.
Why should Eve be any different? On an equal footing, the player that runs away should be able to get away. But not Eve, Eve is backwards, it goes against the natural order. It's for this same reason that low sec and no sec are so under populated, why blobs are so prevalent, why EW is always a hot topic, why we get some rather odd nerfs and why we have nano ships all over the place.
Nano ships are not the problem, EW is not the problem, WCS is not the problem. The problem is the idea that all combat should end with an explosion.
QFT
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Drasked
North Face Force
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Posted - 2008.01.15 13:18:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Awox
I'm withdrawing myself from this thread. You nanof4gs do not realise what I am complaining about. I fly Rapiers and other recons, and many fast ships myself to catch these nanof4gs. The problem is not the fact they they are "so uber" it is that they are so bloody hard to catch if they do not want to fight - unlike most other ship classes in eve.
This is not totally true, im hard to catch in any ship if i dont want to fight.
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.15 13:54:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Del Narveux
Hella awesome idea to fix the nanoships problem, Im surprised this hasnt happened yet:
New webifier module, -40% velocity penalty with 20-25km range. Enough of a hit to take the edge off nanolamers, not enough to totally nerf speed. Boom, problem fixed, yes I am awesome. As an added bonus, heavy tacklers become more useful as they wont have to be right on top of the target to do their thing.
hella dumb. THERE IS NO NEED TO CHANGE ANYTHING. ITs fine, nerf stupidity, oops, only god can do that...
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.15 14:07:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Liathus Firebane
Exactly, no one is saying that a vaga shouldn't be a fast cruiser, it should. But 12k/s without gang and 20k/s with gang is flat out ridiculous. Something needs to be done to keep these speeds in check. Cruisers should NOT be able to go faster then interceptors, when this happens on a regular basis there is a serious problem.
Wow, just because it says interceptor on the ship type doesn't mean the ship automatically pwns in speed. My subaru has 4 cyl and drags M3's but i spent money on whats under the hood and know what i am doing. It takes skills, it takes huge isk investment to get HAC's to go faster than interceptors, nothing out of the box with standard fittings can make them go faster than inty's.
All of these things, gang bonuses, personal skills, tactics, huge skill time/isk investments are what allow this to happen... anything wrong here? NO! You all just whine about it since you dont have 40mil sp, dont have 6 bil in the bank and cry cry cry nerf nerf nerf whine whine whine, unfair ohnnos unfair oohnnoos unfair oohnoos...
Fighting at the ridiculous speeds people love to quote as defacto proof that speed is the LE OMGZEPWNS!, is pointless anyways, most of the combat takes place between 3k-8k anyways, anything above that, little damage is done, and the ships that can do damage via drones, missiles can't get up to those speeds.
If CCP listens to all you cry babies, what will happen is that people will then spend RIDICULOUS amounts of ISK, BUY RIDICULOUS amounts of GTC's and the majority of skilled players will just find some new UBER pwn setups, and the cycle will continue. Speed isn't everything but it appears ******ation rules the day
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.15 14:14:00 -
[278]
The best counter for nano ships i found up to date:) apoc with 8 unstable heavy neuts and cap recharge enough to run them for a few days. Anything that gets under 25 km.... will be emptied on the spot. Then any other ship can deal with it.
What i think its needed is less reason to everyone fit a MWD. Nerf all mwd and boost AB.
-------------------------------------------------
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.15 14:26:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
The best counter for nano ships i found up to date:) apoc with 8 unstable heavy neuts and cap recharge enough to run them for a few days. Anything that gets under 25 km.... will be emptied on the spot. Then any other ship can deal with it.
What i think its needed is less reason to everyone fit a MWD. Nerf all mwd and boost AB.
You could neut an entire fleet with that setup  and 1 of these in a gang would be priceless
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.15 14:28:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
The best counter for nano ships i found up to date:) apoc with 8 unstable heavy neuts and cap recharge enough to run them for a few days. Anything that gets under 25 km.... will be emptied on the spot. Then any other ship can deal with it.
What i think its needed is less reason to everyone fit a MWD. Nerf all mwd and boost AB.
You could neut an entire fleet with that setup and 1 of these in a gang would be priceless
the best part is.. no one pay attention to the APOC until its too late :P
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Charlie Bean
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Posted - 2008.01.15 14:33:00 -
[281]
All I can say is. When 1 ship chases and picks apart a gang of 10 to the point that the FC says Why are we trying to fight a Vega.....?!? So one guy is able to cause a gang of 10 to dock... We couldn't hit him we couldn't lock him.. he took out my BB In Stupid time. Pop in take out a ship and run like a puss. Some tactic... Yes we tried diferent tactics and ships.. it's just stupid. I know I know All the Angry know it alls are gonna say WWWHHHAAAAA BBBooooooo HHooooooo. How many times have I heard some dip-stick say why don't you do this or that... AAHHHHH BullS**t How about this Lets all train for these Stupid ass ships and chase each other around.. then we can complain that no-one can kill anybody.
Some much love
Bean...
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Drasked
North Face Force
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Posted - 2008.01.15 14:35:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Charlie Bean
All I can say is. When 1 ship chases and picks apart a gang of 10 to the point that the FC says Why are we trying to fight a Vega.....?!? So one guy is able to cause a gang of 10 to dock... We couldn't hit him we couldn't lock him.. he took out my BB In Stupid time. Pop in take out a ship and run like a puss. Some tactic... Yes we tried diferent tactics and ships.. it's just stupid. I know I know All the Angry know it alls are gonna say WWWHHHAAAAA BBBooooooo HHooooooo. How many times have I heard some dip-stick say why don't you do this or that... AAHHHHH BullS**t How about this Lets all train for these Stupid ass ships and chase each other around.. then we can complain that no-one can kill anybody.
Some much love
Bean...
Sorry to say this, but if you get the chance hit your FC over the head with a plastic fold-in chair.
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Threv Echandari
Caldari
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:23:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Charlie Bean
Stuff...
We couldn't hit him we couldn't lock him.. he took out my BB In Stupid time. ..Stuff
Some much love
Bean...
Dude, if you can't lock a Vaga with your Blackbird before he pops you then you either need to train up targeting Skills and/or Refit your ship. 'cause can't do **** Damage when he's at "Stupid Speed", and if there's 10 of you and all of you are getting picked off then you need a new FC....
This isn't a Boo hoo hoo for you post either, I don't fly nanoships, I'm a Stealth Bomber/Ewar guy, But I know how not to get killed by one and a BlackBird is one of may fave T1 **** off the enemy ship
But as I said in an earlier post I guess I'm different because I count NOT losing my ship to a "superior" enemy the same a Win.
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:41:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Charlie Bean
All I can say is. When 1 ship chases and picks apart a gang of 10 to the point that the FC says Why are we trying to fight a Vega.....?!? So one guy is able to cause a gang of 10 to dock... We couldn't hit him we couldn't lock him.. he took out my BB In Stupid time. Pop in take out a ship and run like a puss. Some tactic... Yes we tried diferent tactics and ships.. it's just stupid. I know I know All the Angry know it alls are gonna say WWWHHHAAAAA BBBooooooo HHooooooo. How many times have I heard some dip-stick say why don't you do this or that... AAHHHHH BullS**t How about this Lets all train for these Stupid ass ships and chase each other around.. then we can complain that no-one can kill anybody.
Some much love
Bean...
look kid, you haven't a clue on how to fight, its clearly obvious. The anger from the PVPers is that you deciede to come on here and vent about how you lost a 2mil ship so therefore the rest of the Eve community must change because your ship got shot down. If you came here and said, I got popped, help me learn how to fight. people would do that. Don't get mad at the vaga, get mad at " and this was said before" get mad at your FC, find a better corp with people who know how to play.
And this has been said a million times before, Everyone learns by dying, you learn by getting your ship shot to pieces. The difference is that we all learned how to fly and fight in different tactical situations, you are whining. Its not all about speed, get that out of your head. You simply haven't learned yet.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:46:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Charlie Bean
All I can say is. When 1 ship chases and picks apart a gang of 10 to the point that the FC says Why are we trying to fight a Vega.....?!? So one guy is able to cause a gang of 10 to dock... We couldn't hit him we couldn't lock him.. he took out my BB In Stupid time. Pop in take out a ship and run like a puss. Some tactic... Yes we tried diferent tactics and ships.. it's just stupid. I know I know All the Angry know it alls are gonna say WWWHHHAAAAA BBBooooooo HHooooooo. How many times have I heard some dip-stick say why don't you do this or that... AAHHHHH BullS**t How about this Lets all train for these Stupid ass ships and chase each other around.. then we can complain that no-one can kill anybody.
Some much love
Bean...
you can solve this with a fe options:
1- Leave the worst gang ever
2- Leave the worst FC ever
3- Leave your cloak and 3 stabs at home (no other way i believe you would not be able to lock him).
3- Bring a Neut Ship
4- bring a rapier/Huggin
5- Bring a baalhgorn
6- Bring a nanoship
7- bring a few Myrmidon with 3 drone speed mods and warrior II (can catch any T2 only nano hac)
8- Smartly throw a bomb in his direction when he is approaching (yes a single bomb pops a vagabond with MWD on), but need at least some basic skills
9- Dampen him ( dampeners are still enough to make a vagabond need to get near web range
-------------------------------------------------
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Viashivan
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:03:00 -
[286]
The problem from my perspective is the lack of choice. Currently its only being discussed what ships can be nanoed. Its usually not discussed what other options are available to fit a ship.
And this is a logic consequense due to the fact that most nano ships are that fast that they are outside/above gamemechanics. They can choose when to fight and even if they fight, they won't comit themselfs. The only way to counter them is to catch them with a gang, consisting of at least one minmatar recon, or fly a nano ship yourself.
The problem is, that speed tanking should not mean 0% chance to be hit. And that is currently the case. Speed tanking should mean reduced damage in relation to your speed, but not invunerability to most conventional weapons.
Via
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Threv Echandari
Caldari
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:36:00 -
[287]
Originally by: Viashivan
Stuff ....
The only way to counter them is to catch them with a gang, consisting of at least one minmatar recon, or fly a nano ship yourself.
Stuff....
Via
Read the Post above yours, nano-ship not required.. 
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Viashivan
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.01.15 17:44:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Threv Echandari
Originally by: Viashivan
Stuff ....
The only way to counter them is to catch them with a gang, consisting of at least one minmatar recon, or fly a nano ship yourself.
Stuff....
Via
Read the Post above yours, nano-ship not required..
it is he will just make a gaterun, stay cloaked until his cap is good and bye bye
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Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
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Posted - 2008.01.15 17:54:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
you can solve this with a fe options:
1- Leave the worst gang ever
2- Leave the worst FC ever
3- Leave your cloak and 3 stabs at home (no other way i believe you would not be able to lock him).
3- Bring a Neut Ship
4- bring a rapier/Huggin
5- Bring a baalhgorn
6- Bring a nanoship
7- bring a few Myrmidon with 3 drone speed mods and warrior II (can catch any T2 only nano hac)
8- Smartly throw a bomb in his direction when he is approaching (yes a single bomb pops a vagabond with MWD on), but need at least some basic skills
9- Dampen him ( dampeners are still enough to make a vagabond need to get near web range
In most cases if nano pilot sees Rapier/Huginn, he won't even engage.
Inertia will carry the nano-ship outside neut/scram range.
Bringing nano-ship? That only highlights that we have a problem here.
Bhaalgorn? And nano-ship will fight when he sees one on scanner? Besides that it's a really viable option for most pilots. I never fly in a gang without faction fitted Bhaalgorn (you know, may be we'll meet a Vaga or two).
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Turin
Caldari
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.15 17:58:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Racuel
Originally by: Lord Frost
PvP has turned into a speed game, and I can guarantee this is NOT what CCP visioned for a mainstream tactic.
But if you take it away there is no way a small gang can harrass and be successful vs a big gang, a small gang would just get smashed to pieces. As somebody said, if you take a way speed what do you have left as a viable tactic to maximize your chance of winning a battle? That's right you have the blob. And im sure as hell ccp dont want to encourage more blobbing.
Speed needs to be here, not only because its something different from the MOAR HP MOAR DPS style of game but also because it allows smaller gangs to do damage to gangs much bigger than them.
So, in other words, its important that speed be more powerfull than any other form of game play because it discourages blobs? Is that the idea here? Id just like to make sure I understand.
Speed is.... annoying. Everyone knows speed is SLIGHLTY broke. Its not near as bad as the nerf cryers wouldhave you believe, but its also not really balanced like the lemmings would tell you who follow the PVP setup of the month.
The answer is somewhere in between. I would personally like to see them nerf Snakes or polycarbons. Leave the ships and mods alone.
_________________________________
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
VENOM Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.15 18:03:00 -
[291]
If enough people whine long and hard enough on these here forums ccp will nerf it... usually to a point where it goes from best to worst... sad as that may sound, it has happend a lot the last few years.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.15 18:04:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Turin
So, in other words, its important that speed be more powerfull than any other form of game play because it discourages blobs? Is that the idea here? Id just like to make sure I understand.
Speed is.... annoying. Everyone knows speed is SLIGHLTY broke. Its not near as bad as the nerf cryers wouldhave you believe, but its also not really balanced like the lemmings would tell you who follow the PVP setup of the month.
The answer is somewhere in between. I would personally like to see them nerf Snakes or polycarbons. Leave the ships and mods alone.
while i agree with your view i dont agree with your conclusion - its the items that everyone can get that need to be nerfed - not the expensive ones and not some lame stacking nerf
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Iva Soreass
Personal Vendetta
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Posted - 2008.01.15 18:08:00 -
[293]
Edited by: Iva Soreass on 15/01/2008 18:08:23
Quote:
Speed is not EvE
Nope, but Quote:
Nerf This Nerf That Nerf This Nerf That, Whine Whine Whine Whine Whine
is EvE in a nuttshell.
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Turin
Caldari
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.15 18:12:00 -
[294]
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Turin
So, in other words, its important that speed be more powerfull than any other form of game play because it discourages blobs? Is that the idea here? Id just like to make sure I understand.
Speed is.... annoying. Everyone knows speed is SLIGHLTY broke. Its not near as bad as the nerf cryers wouldhave you believe, but its also not really balanced like the lemmings would tell you who follow the PVP setup of the month.
The answer is somewhere in between. I would personally like to see them nerf Snakes or polycarbons. Leave the ships and mods alone.
while i agree with your view i dont agree with your conclusion - its the items that everyone can get that need to be nerfed - not the expensive ones and not some lame stacking nerf
Polycarbons are a pretty common hunk of gear. Not so much the snakes, but the true PROPER speed setups include snakes.
_________________________________
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Jezala
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.01.15 18:39:00 -
[295]
I can't help but laugh at the stupidity of the nano situation.
It seemed everything was going to be alright after CCP nerfed the nanofibers, but then they go introduce the polycarbons, implants, and warfare mods. They obviously identified nano'ing as a broken mechanic in their pvp design, and I can understand that miscommunication would allow the introduction of new mods that would nullify CCP's corrective actions on nano-ships...but what I don't understand is how the hell could they let a broken mechanic sit for so long when they know what the problem is and the source of the problems.
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L70Rogue
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Posted - 2008.01.15 18:53:00 -
[296]
Ships have never been as fast as they are now except probably when you could use 2 mwds, I bet people out there are already setting up speed fitted battleships and battlecruisers but we'll have to see when the complaints come in. Remove polycarbons, snakes, and nerf MWDs just a bit.
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Ethan Tomlinson
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.01.15 19:06:00 -
[297]
Quote:
I can't believe so many people want to nerf speed just for sake of nerfing it. Where are these people coming from? I don't think EVE community was like this 2 years ago.
seriously...
the world of warcraft expatriots would have this game flipped upside down and catering to mainly mission running if they had been here first. as it turned out though the first eve players were sick of that kind of game play and wanted something more open ended. They played a key role in helping ccp to swing eve into a niche in the gaming market favoring pvp over ease of operation.
I have been flying in 0.0 for years now and I have never felt any problems were present with nanoships. they come and go, maybe gank 1 npc'er whos not paying attention or something and then get chased off. If you are constantly having problems with these ships. band together with your corp mates and do something about it rather than sitting off in a belt somewhere watching teletubbies while you get ganked. Dont call for changes that will in the end do nothing but bring forth another FOTM and make ships that people have spent a year+ training for completely useless.
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.15 19:11:00 -
[298]
PROTIP:
2x polycarbons costs 100m
1x faction web costs 65m
Not to mention other counters that have already been suggested.
Find something else to whine about.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2008.01.15 19:14:00 -
[299]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/01/2008 19:15:13
Originally by: L70Rogue
Ships have never been as fast as they are now except probably when you could use 2 mwds, I bet people out there are already setting up speed fitted battleships and battlecruisers but we'll have to see when the complaints come in. Remove polycarbons, snakes, and nerf MWDs just a bit.
You have no bloody idea what you're talking about. Ships have never been slower.
BTW, if snakes are discussed, then faction webs are fair game as well. Both are faction gear and faction webs are way cheaper anyway. You could outfit a small gang with faction webs for the price of a snake-set and then smartbomb their pod when you catch em
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
angelena
Caldari
AND THEN NO YOU
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Posted - 2008.01.15 19:26:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Originally by: Liathus Firebane
Wow, just because it says interceptor on the ship type doesn't mean the ship automatically pwns in speed. My subaru has 4 cyl and drags M3's but i spent money on whats under the hood and know what i am doing.
Imo i say this isnt true. Surely if you knew what you were doing you would have saved the money you spent under the bonnet, and bought a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo.
Can you tell i dont like scoobies much. 
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