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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:48:00 -
[1]
Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening everyone from whichever end of the globe you come from.
I'm writing this post in regards to a trend in Eve that has been going on for quite awhile but seems to be picking up more pace - that being the repeated exploit of using Rookie ships and clones in the use of not only harrassing players but to incur no losses of ISK for doing any number of activities, some of those being:
- Can flipping/stealing from Miners - 0.0 Loot theft - Low Security loot theft - General harrassment of corps using mains to war dec and keeping rookie characters in the corp to prolong it and using them to harrass industrial characters.
These are but a few examples and I'm sure many of you can list other countless examples of where you may have seen or experienced it first hand where someone has used a Rookie ship like a Reaper, Velator, Ibis or Impairor to cause you a general headache. I've experienced can flipping a few times and thieves just trying to gank someone minding their own business trying to enjoy the game in peace. What I find angering however is that if I make a mistake, to play devils advocate - the aggroing party/ies will not suffer a loss of ISK, rookie ships get replaced for nothing and what does it matter if they get podded also ? they can still fly one.
What I ask is and I have filed petitions and so have a lot of friends of mine in game, if you feel the same way like something needs to be done then please, file a petition - while it may not initially be quickfixed at least it gives the GM's some basis to work from. At least they can recognise that it is an abuse of the game mechanics, a clever loophole nonetheless but it is still exploiting the mechanics of the game. Specifically the idea of earning ISK to progress, get a better ship, skill and so on and it makes you want to play the game [ or it does for me ] because I always want to move on, get the next shiny thing so to speak. If people can abuse trial accounts and rookie ships/characters just to anger someone all the time then shouldn't something be done about it or have it at least discussed ? Im not saying ban them all together - if someone wishes to try and cause grief/griefing to others surely they should be risking their own ISK ? Whether its their main or alt char is immaterial. Why should they lose nothing and try to cost someone a lot of money potentially ?
Please feel free to discuss it on this thread either way. It is a discussion and opinions are important from all angles however please do not turn this thread into a Flaming match. It defeats the point of the exercise in this case.
NB : 1- For anyone wanting to say '' Oh but you are posting on an Alt '' it does not matter if I am or not - the issue here is raised in the thread so please do not try to hijack the thread in order to start a flaming War. It's a discussion. 2- I am not saying loot theft or ore theft should be banned either - merely that the player/s in question should lose some form of ISK in the process if it goes wrong for them, not just lose a Rookie ship and a pod for nothing.
I look forward to your posts and/or petitions if you feel the same way.
Thank you. |
Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:53:00 -
[2]
I have it on good authority that alts improve every aspect of Eve. In fact tranquility would cease functioning at all if we didn't have them.
And by good authority I mean every fanboi who will troll with 100% guaranteed Mitnal immunity anybody who suggests that alts in fact, suck. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse.
2) Idiot.
Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz. |
Melor Rend
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:54:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Melor Rend on 15/01/2008 15:57:20 Edited by: Melor Rend on 15/01/2008 15:53:56
Quote: I've experienced can flipping a few times and thieves just trying to gank someone minding their own business trying to enjoy the game in peace.
While I agree that this is a very cheap trick that I personally also find very lame, EVE is not a game where you can simply say "Uhh no I just wanna level up [my nightelf] in peace" (SCNR @ the nightelf).
It's a harsh world where you'll be killed if anyone can gain anything from it so if the game were changed the way you ask, then the game would stop being EVE and start becomming random-MMORPG-number 231345234.
Edit:
Quote: Why should they lose nothing and try to cost someone a lot of money potentially ?
It's called PvP successfully and is great fun. |
MadDoc Brown
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:54:00 -
[4]
Edited by: MadDoc Brown on 15/01/2008 15:54:54
Originally by: Fifth Horseman I have it on good authority that alts improve every aspect of Eve. In fact tranquility would cease functioning at all if we didn't have them.
And by good authority I mean every fanboi who will troll with 100% guaranteed Mitnal immunity anybody who suggests that alts in fact, suck.
You're a nasty one eh..?
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Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:56:00 -
[5]
I can see your point Melor Rend, however I am not saying loot theft / ore theft should stop - Only that if people want to do theft and the like they should be risking something in the process like the majority of players in Eve. Why shoulder a Miner or PvPer or anyone for that matter risk losing ISK when a rookie ship can do anything without a care in the world, lose the ship and get podded and not have 1 ISK lost. It just seems totally unfair.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:56:00 -
[6]
Originally by: MadDoc Brown Edited by: MadDoc Brown on 15/01/2008 15:54:54
Originally by: Fifth Horseman I have it on good authority that alts improve every aspect of Eve. In fact tranquility would cease functioning at all if we didn't have them.
And by good authority I mean every fanboi who will troll with 100% guaranteed Mitnal immunity anybody who suggests that alts in fact, suck.
You're a nasty one eh..?
60 seconds. Swift even for a trolling fanboi. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse.
2) Idiot.
Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz. |
ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:57:00 -
[7]
What can a noobship kill, except another noobship?
Also, you'd need to fit modules, which cost money, to actually 'upgrade' your noobship to hold a miner in place (warp disruptor, guns etc). Kill him, and he loses that money.
I can't for my life see this as a problem?
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Nicho Void
Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.01.15 15:59:00 -
[8]
I hereby suggest that all rookie ships now cost 20 billion ISK. Problem solved, right? Right?
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Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:01:00 -
[9]
Nicho you could reply with something a little more positive rather than sarcastic nonchalant comments. Its a discussion, I am only raising some points which I think are valid, if you want to contest that fine but as I said in the first post please do not turn this into a flame war and hijack the thread.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:02:00 -
[10]
While your friends might be showing you support I doubt you'll find much from the general population.
Already being discussed in a number of forums but Can Flipping/Stealing from Miners while a pretty lame way to make a living in Eve, is neither harrasment, griefing or petitionable. There are a number of counters to such things and plenty of legitimate reasons to do it. You'll find that many people with harrass miners to get them to stop mining in a particular field they have 'claimed', while others are hired mercanaries paid for by a corp to harras people for a week so that this particular corp can get the most out of a system. Certainly there are just those that do it for profit (ore=isk) and its all perfectly legitimate (albeit lame in my opinion).
0.0 Loot Theft is not only not griefing its an extremely profitable way for a newbie to make ISK. Anchor a secured container in a system, then fly around in a rookie ship collecting loot worth 50,000% more then the risk involved. I strongly suggest that newbies take up this practice as it teaches you a lot about 0.0 (something everyone should be aspiring to in my opinion) and it harasses experianced players who are constantly whining on the boards that not enough people go into low and null sec.
Low Security Theft is no different then any other kind of theft. Theft as a whole is neither griefing or petionable, its a part of the game and many players make it their business, in fact there are entire corps and alliances dedicate to theft and piracy exactly as CCP intends this game to be by design.
War Dec harrasment is a bit of a different story as their are currently a number of exploits, but CCP has already told us that this is something on the chopping block for them.
For the most part however I can't really support you as in my opinion while the list that you have provided is the result of some of the most vile players in the game, they are all legitimate ways to play the game and have plenty of ways they can be countered.
If there is one thing I would support is the complete elimination of alt characters. 1 Account 1 Character. While this wouldn't solve the problem completetly, most people who are paying for an account are trainning skills, hence plugging in their clones and would generaly not use their accounts for the list you mentioned as this would be a waste of real money. The elimination of alts however would eliminate a considerable amount of what I would consider lame tactics and would create a whole to new proffession of character, the spy/scout.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ApaKaka What can a noobship kill, except another noobship?
Also, you'd need to fit modules, which cost money, to actually 'upgrade' your noobship to hold a miner in place (warp disruptor, guns etc). Kill him, and he loses that money.
I can't for my life see this as a problem?
Good point. I really don't see how a noobie ship is anything to worry about, they aren't going to be able to break a miners or a haulers tank and they certainly are no threat to any kind of fighting ship. Certainly he might have backup waiting to jump in but that is not the sign of a griefer but a trap and traps are a very intrical and fun part of tactics in Eve.
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Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:05:00 -
[12]
To Apakaka - Rookie ships have been used as an exploit in the past during a War between 2 0.0 Alliances, I wont name who used them and who against however. Alliance X spammed rookie ships at Alliance Y relentlessly to drain the POS guns of their ammunition. 1 such use of an exploit - comparable sure but not the same circumstance I agree, it just highlights how a free commodity in the game can be used as a loophole. And I'm sure some people may know who Im referring to and they did get punished for it. Its just an example.
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Nicho Void
Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:05:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Nicho Void on 15/01/2008 16:05:50
Originally by: Arkady Roskov Nicho you could reply with something a little more positive rather than sarcastic nonchalant comments. Its a discussion, I am only raising some points which I think are valid, if you want to contest that fine but as I said in the first post please do not turn this into a flame war and hijack the thread.
I'll clarify the meaning of my post, since understanding brevity is not your strong point:
In order to make these people lose "something of value", CCP would have to increase the price of the ship. In doing so, you actually end up hurting the noobs you are so keen to protect.
They're noobships for Jove's sake. Man up and defend yourself, or don't, and continue to die.
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Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:12:00 -
[14]
To Nicho, There could be any number of measures implemented for example - respawns of ships be delayed the more you get destroyed [ ie if you use them as suicide ships, you'll have to wait a lot ]
I did not say I had died to them however I have seen people get swarmed by a group of rookie ships like a group of angry wasps around a guys head. While the analogy is funny in a macabre way it illustrates the point of how is that fair exactly ?
My point here is to not punish genuine new people, more to implement a method of limiting people creating Alt/Trial accounts purely try to harrass/deprive people of their playing experience by exploiting a no ISK loss approach.
Thank you all either way for your comments thus far.
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Tinka Toy
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Arkady Roskov Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening everyone from whichever end of the globe you come from.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! SOMEONE CALL THE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHBULANCE
Thank you.
Fixed this for you.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:16:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Thornat
Originally by: ApaKaka What can a noobship kill, except another noobship?
Good point. I really don't see how a noobie ship is anything to worry about, they aren't going to be able to break a miners or a haulers tank and they certainly are no threat to any kind of fighting ship. Certainly he might have backup waiting to jump in but that is not the sign of a griefer but a trap and traps are a very intrical and fun part of tactics in Eve.
Mains using Velators fitted with T2 guns, scram, and T2 repper, with 2xHobGobII aren't the issue the OP is looking for. And for your own knowledge, they can kill plenty an unsuspecting miner/hauler/ratter. Good for anything that has poor drone skill, cruiser and below. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse.
2) Idiot.
Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz. |
Bodwad
Gallente British Federation Sleepless Knights Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:16:00 -
[17]
I still dont understand how people can transfer from another persons can into their own with a tiny ship. Limit the ammount that can be transfered at any time and can flipping will still be possible but without miners losing everything. A transfer rates type of system where the rate of transfer depends on the ship itself would be more feasable.
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Nicho Void
Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Arkady Roskov To Nicho, There could be any number of measures implemented for example - respawns of ships be delayed the more you get destroyed [ ie if you use them as suicide ships, you'll have to wait a lot ]
An interesting idea, but not practical. Say for instance you are on the defensive side. A pirate pops your barge and you want to hop in your PvP ship for some retaliation, but have to wait. In Eve, seconds matter when hunting.
Originally by: Arkady Roskov I did not say I had died to them however I have seen people get swarmed by a group of rookie ships like a group of angry wasps around a guys head. While the analogy is funny in a macabre way it illustrates the point of how is that fair exactly ?
Arkady, you're going to learn that complaining/whining on the forums will get you no where. Instead, you should ask how to protect yourself against such an attack. Someone would inform you that smartbombs are used for swatting flies.
Originally by: Arkady Roskov My point here is to not punish genuine new people, more to implement a method of limiting people creating Alt/Trial accounts purely try to harrass/deprive people of their playing experience by exploiting a no ISK loss approach.
The noobships are so weak that they literally should not be able to inflict damage on anyone but a noobship, numbers or not. I suggest anyone having this problem look into a PvP course (Eve Uni).
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Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:19:00 -
[19]
To Bodwad, Thats quite a valid point and idea, it also means in the process a genuine Rookie is not penalised, however those that use a Main and an Alt character to do more nefarious and vindictive things is limited. Thanks for your addition.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
Originally by: Thornat
Originally by: ApaKaka What can a noobship kill, except another noobship?
Good point. I really don't see how a noobie ship is anything to worry about, they aren't going to be able to break a miners or a haulers tank and they certainly are no threat to any kind of fighting ship. Certainly he might have backup waiting to jump in but that is not the sign of a griefer but a trap and traps are a very intrical and fun part of tactics in Eve.
Mains using Velators fitted with T2 guns, scram, and T2 repper, with 2xHobGobII aren't the issue the OP is looking for. And for your own knowledge, they can kill plenty an unsuspecting miner/hauler/ratter. Good for anything that has poor drone skill, cruiser and below.
Perhaps, but then again if you put T2 Guns, Reppers and Drones on a ship, its not longer 0 ISK risk right? He's saying that for 0 ISK you can be a threat to a mining operation with everything to gain and nothing to loose and thats just not true. Yes you can harass people, but your not likely to get much out of it in a rookie ship and if you do add some good mods on it you are risking a hell of a lot on a rookie ship which is 1 shot pop for just about anything in the game.
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Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:21:00 -
[21]
To Nicho, Valid points thank you. I'll have to brush up on how to defend better against Rookie ship swarms lol.
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:25:00 -
[22]
This is currently not considered an exploit though.
Wrangler Community Manager CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." |
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Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:27:00 -
[23]
I understand Wrangler, but the discussion is that of - Is it an exploit ? In one circumstance it is but in another it is not. Im not confirming or saying it is definetely its just an open discussion. Sorry for the vagueness in the title
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Arkady Roskov I understand Wrangler, but the discussion is that of - Is it an exploit ? In one circumstance it is but in another it is not. Im not confirming or saying it is definetely its just an open discussion. Sorry for the vagueness in the title
The Devs (as evidenced by Wrangler's response) have said multiple times this is INTENDED game mechanics. No exploit in any situation. Perhaps you should read up on the definition of exploit; The use of game mechanics in a way not intended. Notice the intended part...
Most of the problems you have listed are only possible because players don't understand the game mechanics or fail to take the correct steps to keep themselves safe. Just like you don't wander through town counting your wad of 100 dollar bills, you don't carry a lot of money in fragile ships. Or when someone grabs your boom-box at the park and runs (can flipping), you don't chase them down the darj ally unless you WANT to get into a gun/knife/baseball bat fight.
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:36:00 -
[25]
Nicho, there is something that has been missed though. By using Rookie ships people have the ability to grief others quite a lot for non profit and risk losing nothing, purely to disrupt a players game as much as possible. Is this considered the norm/acceptable within Eve ? Surely it is a form of harrassment and petitionable because even if they get killed, repeatedly they just respawn immediately and go back to hassling the other players ?
Again, its just food for thought. Would like to hear your comments
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Karash Amerius
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:37:00 -
[26]
This thread = lol
"Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog |
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Arkady Roskov I understand Wrangler, but the discussion is that of - Is it an exploit ? In one circumstance it is but in another it is not. Im not confirming or saying it is definetely its just an open discussion. Sorry for the vagueness in the title
Well, the only problem there is that an exploit is only an exploit when we say it is, since an exploit is against the rules.
You can always discuss if you think it should be considered an exploit of course, but it's rather confusing for people if there are suddenly two definitions of an exploit.
Wrangler Community Manager CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." |
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Westly Synpa
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:45:00 -
[28]
suiciding rookies ships into an enemy untill the run out of ammo's is also a valid tactic.
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Arkady Roskov
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:46:00 -
[29]
Wrangler, I see your point thanks. However as I asked a couple of posts back - for the sole purporse of hassling someone in the game using trial accounts repeatedly with the no ISK loss process, isn't that unfair on more seasoned players ? Regardless of how many times you could shoot someone they just keep coming back etc ?
And for the Band of Brothers member - I am sure it was your Alliance that complained about another Alliance swarming your POS's with Rookie ships, so if this thread is '' lol '' Then surely what happened to you illustrates how it can be exploited.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.15 16:53:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Arkady Roskov And for the Band of Brothers member - I am sure it was your Alliance that complained about another Alliance swarming your POS's with Rookie ships, so if this thread is '' lol '' Then surely what happened to you illustrates how it can be '' utilised ''
Oh oh. Wrong thoughts. I'll be hiding now before Mitnal shows up to tow the company line. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse.
2) Idiot.
Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz. |
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