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Sythyss
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Posted - 2008.01.19 08:01:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Sythyss on 19/01/2008 08:03:13 if you think for a second that direct control would help a lot in combat, you really need to learn how to PvP. It might help a bit in 'ceptor vs. 'ceptor fights...but anything else it certainly will not. The combat in eve is entirely tactical...you have to take into consideration your optimal range, accuracy falloff, transveral speed, tracking speed, sig radius, explosion velocity, etc. etc. etc. and tactile control of your ship is not going to help that at all. Do you realize at all how INCREDIBLY HARD combat would be, taking all that into effect, and not having an orbit or keep at range option? You would have to divert all your energy which is normally spent checking your shield status, managing your mods, keeping track of memebrs in your gang, maybe dynamically shield boosting a friend...combat would be IMPOSSIBLE. You mentioned getting into formations...doing acrobats, and similar things like that. Ok...sure, that might be a little fun, but it certainly doesn't give you an edge in combat at all. Oh, and an airpit view? wtf? You're inside a POD...do you know ANYTHING about eve's fiction? Plus...as was mentioned...you're the caption of an entire ship...not dogfighting in spitfire's during WWII.
EDIT: and yeah...I don't know about you're networking knowledge or w/e....but this would add an unprecidented amount of lag to the game...it would be unplayable.
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Tasha Voronina
Caldari Caldari Navy Reserve Force
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Posted - 2008.01.19 08:05:00 -
[32]
hmm.. there's this wonderful (or hateful) thing in this game we call the autopilot that you can set waypoints for. Well, why not allow us to set waypoints within one solar system for the autopilot to then move our ship according to the set of waypoints? (naturally, some delay should be introduced to warping from safespot to safespot.. or not? discuss) --- Sig will be updated shortly |
Sythyss
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Posted - 2008.01.19 08:26:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Sythyss on 19/01/2008 08:28:27 what? waypoints within a system? what, if any, purpose would that serve?
EDIT: actually, that'd allow you to warp between safe spots, making it impossible for someone to probe you out. That would be unfair
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2008.01.19 08:38:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 19/01/2008 08:38:46 Ok all.. this is my first outblow on the eve forums. congratz bringing me there:
For all who feel the need to bring in Joystick, joypad, mousepad, WASD to EVE ONLINE. Go back to bloody WoW og SWG! And leave EVE-O AS IT IS!!!
This is really the first sign that the brainless WOW generation are coming over and destroying a 5 year success game, with controls that will only make it a failure.
GO TO WOW! EVERYONE! NOW!!!
Originally by: CCP Whisper I got your ambulation right here... <walks off to get more wine>
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ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2008.01.19 08:41:00 -
[35]
Ok, this time I am going to hold my mouth on this.
I will only say it has been discussed before and a rather heated discussion resulted.
I am against it.
Besides, why do you think there is a search button up there...---> ----------------------------
Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........
Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
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Sythyss
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Posted - 2008.01.19 08:48:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Sythyss on 19/01/2008 08:47:57
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 19/01/2008 08:38:46 Ok all.. this is my first outblow on the eve forums. congratz bringing me there:
For all who feel the need to bring in Joystick, joypad, mousepad, WASD to EVE ONLINE. Go back to bloody WoW og SWG! And leave EVE-O AS IT IS!!!
This is really the first sign that the brainless WOW generation are coming over and destroying a 5 year success game, with controls that will only make it a failure.
GO TO WOW! EVERYONE! NOW!!!
/signed
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.19 08:49:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Artem Plovix So they focus on hype and not so much on actually making things work better.
:(
Welcome to the software industry.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.01.19 08:56:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 19/01/2008 08:38:46 Ok all.. this is my first outblow on the eve forums. congratz bringing me there:
For all who feel the need to bring in Joystick, joypad, mousepad, WASD to EVE ONLINE. Go back to bloody WoW og SWG! And leave EVE-O AS IT IS!!!
This is really the first sign that the brainless WOW generation are coming over and destroying a 5 year success game, with controls that will only make it a failure.
GO TO WOW! EVERYONE! NOW!!!
Really, man, deep breaths. The OP's just suggesting an alteration of an existing mechanic in a way that they deem might be more fun, not a complete rewrite of the whole damn game. It's completely harmless and so bloody unlikely to be implemented that we might as well be discussing the dimensions of the swimming pool on a Titan. There's nothing game-breaking or deeply threatening here. Calm, deep breaths. That's good.
/derail Y'know, if everything MMO-related is going to be WoW-This and WoW-that for the next few years, I might need to take a decade off computer gaming. /end derail
Originally by: Frug Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:04:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 19/01/2008 09:04:11
Originally by: Amarria Black
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 19/01/2008 08:38:46 Ok all.. this is my first outblow on the eve forums. congratz bringing me there:
For all who feel the need to bring in Joystick, joypad, mousepad, WASD to EVE ONLINE. Go back to bloody WoW og SWG! And leave EVE-O AS IT IS!!!
This is really the first sign that the brainless WOW generation are coming over and destroying a 5 year success game, with controls that will only make it a failure.
GO TO WOW! EVERYONE! NOW!!!
Really, man, deep breaths. The OP's just suggesting an alteration of an existing mechanic in a way that they deem might be more fun, not a complete rewrite of the whole damn game. It's completely harmless and so bloody unlikely to be implemented that we might as well be discussing the dimensions of the swimming pool on a Titan. There's nothing game-breaking or deeply threatening here. Calm, deep breaths. That's good.
/derail Y'know, if everything MMO-related is going to be WoW-This and WoW-that for the next few years, I might need to take a decade off computer gaming. /end derail
SWG said that the control change they brought in with the NGE where "harmless" too.
Its a principality in the picture here. You can do a lot of changes to a game, and it will still be the same game. Change the controls and the way its played. Now that is a major thing. And I dont like that. It changes the way the game is played. And in many many many other ways.
I have said it before, and I will repeat it here: EVE ONLINE is NOT a First Person Shooter game! And it should never be!
Originally by: CCP Whisper I got your ambulation right here... <walks off to get more wine>
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Artem Plovix
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:07:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Artem Plovix on 19/01/2008 09:07:33 Yeah, WoW generation? I started online gaming on a 4mhz computer and a 300 baud modem connecting to local BBS's and playing door games before the internet even existed. From there it was MUDs using Lynx as a text only web browser through a dialup connection so slow the text didn't download fast enough for me to actually fight in the game. From there I've played Ultima Online, and probably 50% of every MMO that's ever come out. I've also been a gaming journalist for several years, with regular articles running in newspapers with millions of daily readers. I hate to wave my e-***** around, but if you're going to turn this into a ****ing contest, I doubt your credentials are going to beat mine.
I don't see why so many of you are so defensive and angry about the idea. First off, this is a discussion, not an inquisition forcing you to use a joystick. I'm not saying it should by joystick ONLY even, just make it an option. The way things are done now is obnoxious, and the controls misinterpret what I want them to do just as often as they actually get it right.
All of you talking about joysticks "causing thousands of updates a second" are completely naive when it comes to how networks and games work. Again, there are other games using direct control that have hundreds or thousands of players in the same game world, and they manage it somehow. WWII Online. The new Conan MMO coming out. Armed Assault (while not an MMO, I've still taken part in 100+ person battles with no lag). It can be done, it has been done, and it's not an excuse.
I'm fine with some other method of control, too. I just want the thing to actually WORK. Half the time it detects my left clicks when I'm trying to move the camera around as double clicks, and sends my ship off in some direction I don't want it to go. The other half the time I have to double click 3-4 times before it finally starts moving. The interface suffers from these same problems. And it's not just me, or my mouse, or my PC, because I know other Eve players who complain about the same issues.
If the controls responded better, and the autpilot wasn't as dumb as an asteroid, I'd be fine with that. Don't want joysticks? Then make the existing controls work better.
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ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:13:00 -
[41]
Edited by: ThaMa Gebir on 19/01/2008 09:13:28 Nicc, stay calm for a moment, I have something for him to get his laughing tackle around before he tries it on...
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=549885 ----------------------------
Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........
Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker SWG said that the control change they brought in with the NGE where "harmless" too.
If you really think that the control changes were the biggest muck-up to come out of the NGE, then you need to put the pipe down son.
Joystick flight wouldn't change EVE to a FPS, anymore than setting Halo on a spaceship makes it a spaceflight sim.
Originally by: Frug Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:15:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 19/01/2008 09:15:41 Artem,
Don't take any of it personaly. You need a thick skin on the Eve forums, specialy if you have 'radical' ideas. Just tell em to bugger off and make your case. It's up to the devs in the end no matter what anyone else says.
Also, read what people say they don't like about an idea, use that - find out why they don't like it and address those concerns. Before you know it, you have a solid idea. Some peeps will still not like it, so revert to thick skin. Train flame suit to lvl three at least and enjoy the debate. :)
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Tasha Voronina
Caldari Caldari Navy Reserve Force
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:27:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Sythyss Edited by: Sythyss on 19/01/2008 08:28:27 what? waypoints within a system? what, if any, purpose would that serve?
EDIT: actually, that'd allow you to warp between safe spots, making it impossible for someone to probe you out. That would be unfair
Well, if anything, it'd allow you to set a more complicated flightpath (if used ongrid) and, as you pointed out, warp between safespots - and yes, I'm aware of the fact it'd allow to autowarp around the place evading probes - the thing is, if you already have safespots and are being scanned (or know how to avoid being caught), you'll be doing that anyway, manually.
If an unlimited amount of insystem waypoints unbalances scanning, limit their amount to some number like 20 and add a delay to enter warp of something like 2 minutes (hey, at least this gives the prober a chance to catch you with good coverage) --- Sig will be updated shortly |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:34:00 -
[45]
meh do you really want to pull your joystick to the right or left for like 20 seconds while you align?
*avoids really bad "joystick" pun*
imagine 100v100 fleet fights
no imaging 100v100 on a first person shooter
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Selene Dukat
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:37:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Artem Plovix There's already a thread about the interface needing a major overhaul, and in conjunction with that I believe the controls are horribly in need of attention too. I've NEVER understood why players don't have DIRECT, TACTILE control over their ships.
This is the very thing I like about Eve, and the only reason I've stuck with it as opposed to other "space" games that I hated.
I don't want to be playing a "fighter pilot" space game. I want to Captain a large ship and crew.
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:38:00 -
[47]
Waypoints, joysticks, that's just complicating things.
Think about the current system for a second. It does allow decent enough control, but its main failing is the ship physics which are poorly coded.
One change is all that is needed for the system to become less ungainly and even more tactical. Give some importance to the ship velocity control. Currently, there is no need to ever adjust your speed aside from stop/max settings. Now, if the ships ALWAYS maintained their speed, even during maneuvers, you would cease to see the drop-to-0 speed when turning 180 degrees around and it would even give a reason to use various speed settings for tighter turns etc. making the combat more involved.
Do you want to keep going at full speed, but take longer to turn around and align? Or perhaps reduce your speed to make a tight turn, but make yourself an easier target? Orbit at full velocity but compensate for it by choosing a closer distance? Or reduce your speed at close orbit to get really close up and mess up their tracking (since the fool forgot to fit a webber)?
You would actually need to know how your ship performs.
As it stands, the speed dial on our interface is more of a gauge than an actually useful control. And the fact that the autopilot adjusts the speed automatically means we got very little say in how our ships actually perform.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Furious Hawk Edited by: Furious Hawk on 19/01/2008 06:42:28 Edited by: Furious Hawk on 19/01/2008 06:41:29 A frigate is half the size of the Eiffel Tower. Anything bigger has too much mass to go dogfighting around in.
Want to go joy sticking around? Play Freelancer.
you fail sir no is saying dog fighting.
manual CONTROL DOES NOT EQUAL TWITCH CONTROL!
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:48:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sythyss Edited by: Sythyss on 19/01/2008 08:03:13 if you think for a second that direct control would help a lot in combat, you really need to learn how to PvP. It might help a bit in 'ceptor vs. 'ceptor fights...but anything else it certainly will not. The combat in eve is entirely tactical...you have to take into consideration your optimal range, accuracy falloff, transveral speed, tracking speed, sig radius, explosion velocity, etc. etc. etc. and tactile control of your ship is not going to help that at all. Do you realize at all how INCREDIBLY HARD combat would be, taking all that into effect, and not having an orbit or keep at range option? You would have to divert all your energy which is normally spent checking your shield status, managing your mods, keeping track of memebrs in your gang, maybe dynamically shield boosting a friend...combat would be IMPOSSIBLE. You mentioned getting into formations...doing acrobats, and similar things like that. Ok...sure, that might be a little fun, but it certainly doesn't give you an edge in combat at all. Oh, and an airpit view? wtf? You're inside a POD...do you know ANYTHING about eve's fiction? Plus...as was mentioned...you're the caption of an entire ship...not dogfighting in spitfire's during WWII.
EDIT: and yeah...I don't know about you're networking knowledge or w/e....but this would add an unprecidented amount of lag to the game...it would be unplayable.
what about for aligning? or getting into position?
also the pod makes it so you can will the ship to do what you want like the ship is your body. so the pod argument is working against you.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:49:00 -
[50]
Originally by: ThaMa Gebir Ok, this time I am going to hold my mouth on this.
I will only say it has been discussed before and a rather heated discussion resulted.
I am against it.
Besides, why do you think there is a search button up there...--->
oh boy they will find a 5 year old thread on it that is locked...
just saying you know that's not a valid point on these forums :P
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:50:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 19/01/2008 09:10:40 Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 19/01/2008 09:04:11
Originally by: Amarria Black
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 19/01/2008 08:38:46 Ok all.. this is my first outblow on the eve forums. congratz bringing me there:
For all who feel the need to bring in Joystick, joypad, mousepad, WASD to EVE ONLINE. Go back to bloody WoW og SWG! And leave EVE-O AS IT IS!!!
This is really the first sign that the brainless WOW generation are coming over and destroying a 5 year success game, with controls that will only make it a failure.
GO TO WOW! EVERYONE! NOW!!!
Really, man, deep breaths. The OP's just suggesting an alteration of an existing mechanic in a way that they deem might be more fun, not a complete rewrite of the whole damn game. It's completely harmless and so bloody unlikely to be implemented that we might as well be discussing the dimensions of the swimming pool on a Titan. There's nothing game-breaking or deeply threatening here. Calm, deep breaths. That's good.
/derail Y'know, if everything MMO-related is going to be WoW-This and WoW-that for the next few years, I might need to take a decade off computer gaming. /end derail
SWG said that the control change they brought in with the NGE where "harmless" too.
Its a principality in the picture here. You can do a lot of changes to a game, and it will still be the same game. Change the controls and the way its played. Now that is a major thing. And I dont like that. It changes the way the game is played. And in many many many other ways.
I have said it before, and I will repeat it here: EVE ONLINE is NOT a First Person Shooter game! And it should never be!
ADDED: I am a SWG refugee. I left because of the changes in the game after 2,5 years of pure dedication. So came the changes! And it ****ed of PLENTY of people! I argued with SOE. So did others. It turned nasty. It ended with I asking them to burn in hell. Got a temp bann from it. So did a lot of others. SOE did not care. They would get plenty of new players. So they though. I left for EVE. My friends left for other games.
I dont want to become a refugee anymore. EVE O is my home now! So please! Leave EVE in the way it have been in the last 5 years! OK????
IT"S NOT A CONTROL CHANGE.
wow your dense.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.01.19 09:52:00 -
[52]
p.s.(I'm against this, I just want to be able to move in any direction in space I want, because right now you can't double click if it's not open space., however I can understand the ops idea is not asking for new controls just a new way to use the same old ones. that's like saying adding wasd to a point and click mmorpg like wow if it only had point and click would some how magically change the whole damn game.
I thought as a vet I'm suppose to be the one that resists change?
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Lazuran
Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.19 11:33:00 -
[53]
Joysticks would probably work to some extent and I share the OPs opinions about double-clicking and irresponsiveness of the current UI.
However, as I understood it, EVE is trying to avoid being a "twitch game" in most situations. Sometimes it fails (think gate camping, tackling) due to the way the UI is designed and often in twitch-situations the UI just fails (lag, complicated UI interaction etc.).
One obvious improvement would be to remove those twitch-moments altogether, e.g. by making the ATU work and by adding things like "auto-lock on target broadcast".
As for going with joysticks... There's Vendetta Online if you want a real Elite clone.
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois. |
Sahriah BloodStone
Caldari Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.19 11:42:00 -
[54]
IMO no this would make combat to hard BUT There should be the option to control ships with a WASD type way only if you are in screenshot mode (Ctrl+alt) for movies and stuff. Ive always loved the idea of piloting a ceptor around manually just because it looks awsome with all the windows gone.
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Jessica Lorelei
Minmatar Decimus Corp FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.01.19 11:44:00 -
[55]
i agree with mothermoon
something to allow precise alignment and direction of the ship would save time and lives, even if it is just a toggle button to disallow selecting of celestial objects.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.01.19 12:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jessica Lorelei i agree with mothermoon
something to allow precise alignment and direction of the ship would save time and lives, even if it is just a toggle button to disallow selecting of celestial objects.
The 'approach' button is already there, they just have it disabled on distant objects for some mysterious reason.
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Suittam
Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.01.19 13:19:00 -
[57]
If it's a twitch based game you are looking for then maybe hold out for Infinity. Sure it's still probably a year of any kind of beta but seems to be coming along nicely now. They also have a combat prototype up and running indicating roughly how the full game will play.
I think Eve should remain as it is. PvP is complex enough as it is, especially with recent additions such as scripts. And as others have said, how are you going to keep an eye on optimal-transversal-falloff-velocity-reloading/changing ammo and countless other things in a split second while trying to wrestle with a joystick and lag all at the same time.
There is alot of talk that Infinity is trying to be a clone of Eve, but i think the 2 games are going to be very different, simply from the way they are controlled.
In short: Tactical based = Eve Twitch based = Infinity
Problem solved? Probably not
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Z3r0n
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.01.19 13:47:00 -
[58]
The idea with the controls sounds interesting. Maybe CCP should look into this. It is true that the controls are not exactly one of my favorite aspects of EVE. On the other hand I also would hate EVE to become an FPS or adopt a combat system such as freelancer.
The idea with the c.o.c.kpit view however is a bit problematic from a backstory/role play point of view: you see in EVE the pilots don't sit in the c.o.c.kpit or bridge of their ships, they sit in an escape pod and are linked directly to the ships systems. What you see on your screen is in actual fact the picture from your camera drones thats being sent back to your pod-pilots brain somewhere in the bowls of the ship.
I guess someone could get the idea to "stick" a camera drone at the front of his/her ship and would then get a view like out of the bridge view screen.
Currently Training: ePeen Compensation Rank (19) |
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