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Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.01.20 08:47:00 - [1] I've been rather bored as of late with little to do and desire not to waste my time playing mindless games so thought I might try something remotely creative for once. so anyway, I used to make levels for Doom and Duke Nukem 3d (most of which wern't very good) when I was about 12 and figured hey, that was easy enough - maybe I should try using the HL2 editor - Hammer? I don't really know what to do at first but slowly learn the basics from various tutorials. It's really odd how you have to seal rooms manually rather than simply carve away as if everything you hadn't built on was solid. I think I get the trigger systems but my main gripe is really at how clumsy and awkward it is to actually construct... ...basically, it's taken me all day just to make 2 very ugly cubey rooms with a door inbetween them, lights and an alarm that can be shot out completely and some headcrabs that spawn when I walk over a certain spot. I then go and look at some of Valve's levels (particually the opening scene of EP2) which are 100x more complex and 1000x more detailed and wonder how long it really took them to make it Easily 2 months work for what's really only the first 5 minutes of gameplay. How do they do it?
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.01.20 09:06:00 - [2] TEAMWORK
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.01.20 09:11:00 - [3] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin TEAMWORK that figure was assuming teamwork and motivation too. single-handedly it could be anything up to a year imo
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2008.01.20 12:07:00 - [4] hammer editor is incredibly easy to use. my problem was always that i built so much detail with brushes that really should have been actual models. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.20 12:32:00 - [5] and that's exactly why games nowadays take years to produce, and cost tens of millions. the sheer content in terms of man-hours is absolutely insane... and the best thing is, that the rate of increase seems to show little sign of slowing down... hence more and more sequels, and more and more copycat titles, and less originality every year.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.01.20 12:51:00 - [6] Originally by: ry ry hammer editor is incredibly easy to use. it's not that it isn't easy to understand - It just does things in an awkward fashion. Why do you have to 'hollow out' an object or put all faces in place manually, rather than simply press a button to invert the faces? Why is moving vertices such a pain? Why can't you drag-select? Why isn't there a simple way to expand a room (all it should take is 2 new vertices and to drag them out) etc. Maybe i'm just too used to the simple yet functional editors of olde
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2008.01.20 13:24:00 - [7] i don't think i've ever used the 'hollow' tool to create a room - its simple enough to build walls, floor & ceiling seperately and you're less likely to find leaks if you build each bit by hand rather than stretching a box about. although you've inspired me to re-install HL2 and have a play with the SDK. :) [IMAGE REMOVED]
lofty29 Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.20 14:51:00 - [8] If you've ever used 3DS Max, Hammer is incredibly easy to understand. If you haven't...it's a bit confusing 族---族 Latest Video : FAT- Camp
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.20 16:16:00 - [9] Originally by: lofty29 If you've ever used 3DS Max, Hammer is incredibly easy to understand. If you haven't...it's a bit confusing whereas I used hammer and instantly wished it were as nice and simple as using Max. (though with getting on for a decade of using various versions of Max, that's because 3ds max is now hardwired into my muscle memory without needing my brain. people ask me how to do stuff, and I dont know unless I load up max and do the sequence of controls in slow-mo)
Adrielle Firewalker Minmatar WASTELAND MINERS Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.20 17:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Rawr Cristina It's really odd how you have to seal rooms manually rather than simply carve away as if everything you hadn't built on was solid. I think I get the trigger systems but my main gripe is really at how clumsy and awkward it is to actually construct... Yeah, its something to do with bsp construction. You're building stuff in a massive empty void. The alternative is like what you have with the Unreal series, where you are actually carving out of a huge non-textured block the rooms/areas you want, then adding stuff inside. I actually find the latter more confusing than the former, but I used Hammer for years before I lost all interest in the game development scene, and even before that was using qoole to make stuff for Quake. I'll have a poke around, see if I can find my old tutorials for you and sling you a mail ingame ================ ~Adrielle Original MinmatarT
Avery Fatwallet	Posted - 2008.01.20 17:20:00 - [11] Edited by: Avery Fatwallet on 20/01/2008 17:20:37 and you guys are sure the devs of HL2 also used this Hammer thingey, and not...say... a slightly modified version. or soemthing completely different at all?
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2008.01.20 17:28:00 - [12] Edited by: ry ry on 20/01/2008 17:31:35 they definately use it - or a very similar version. originally it was called Worldcraft turned out to be better than their actual devtools, so they bought it (and it's author, ben something-or-other i think) up. for crazy confusing try the unreal ed. you subtract empty space from a solid level, weirdly. or at least you used to, i've not bothered looking at it for ages. edit as the chappy above pointed out. i reallty should start reading threads before replying. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:49:00 - [13] Originally by: ry ry for crazy confusing try the unreal ed. you subtract empty space from a solid level, weirdly. that's what I'm used to... might explain my confusion with Hammer
Zeonos Amarr Fairtrade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.20 20:40:00 - [14] Edited by: Zeonos on 20/01/2008 20:42:10 Hammer is nice and easy, many details are made with models imported from 3dmax or maya, and they are used in many places around in the game a map. Unreal still use the carve method, so you might want to build for that instead. i should also start to read the entire post before pointing things out as the above posters already said.. Look I Hijacked a sig!! -Kaemonn <3 Kaemonn -Zeonos A sunset with Kaemonn... how nice... -Wachtmeister In Eve-Online Forum Hijack Signature! -Ivan K This space is reserved for moderator hijacking, Need more colors! Red & Yellow & Pink & Green, Orange & Purple & ME! - Deckard My yellow pwns Deckard's fruity rainbow thingie anyday. BRING IT BABY! -Hango Black and pink 4tw however gold pwns -Eldo
Asestorian Domination.	Posted - 2008.01.20 22:42:00 - [15] What I've learned here is that these kinds of tools (Hammer, 3dsMax etc) are complicated till you have experience with them when they become not complicated and you can quickly and easily do some really cool stuff. Which is kind of what I was expecting coming into this thread to be honest --- MOZO
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.01.21 01:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Asestorian Which is kind of what I was expecting coming into this thread to be honest i'm not that much of a noob... I think
Cherybol Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.01.21 01:58:00 - [17] At a game art workshop I just attended recently, I got to talk to the lead concept artist, as well as the lead level designer or "architect" for Bungie, including there posse of people that work with them. I came to find that it took them approximately 1.5 years to design and map out/model/texture just 1 level for Halo 3. A modestly short one at that as well. So I guess one can bet there ass it takes a long time to create a map from concept, to blocking, sculpting, texturing, adding in lighting, event triggers, tweaks, sky boxes, etc. it takes a damn long time. Even if your already using a game engine editor tool like Hammer that has environment pieces already meshed/textured for you. So now I don't feel like such a lame ass when I'm creating a map in Hammer for HL2. As I realize it seriously does just take forever.
Xen Gin The Dragoons	Posted - 2008.01.21 06:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Adrielle Firewalker Originally by: Rawr Cristina It's really odd how you have to seal rooms manually rather than simply carve away as if everything you hadn't built on was solid. I think I get the trigger systems but my main gripe is really at how clumsy and awkward it is to actually construct... Yeah, its something to do with bsp construction. You're building stuff in a massive empty void. The alternative is like what you have with the Unreal series, where you are actually carving out of a huge non-textured block the rooms/areas you want, then adding stuff inside. I actually find the latter more confusing than the former, but I used Hammer for years before I lost all interest in the game development scene, and even before that was using qoole to make stuff for Quake. I'll have a poke around, see if I can find my old tutorials for you and sling you a mail ingame I have to completely agree, I really liked Rituals UberRadiant for EF2, since its based on a Q3Enhanced engine, its how I learned to map. When I got to Unreal mapping, it was ungodlike, the complete opposite to creating something in a void compared to extracting voids from a material. I'll never be able to make the change.
Sqalevon The Ragnarg Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.01.21 14:29:00 - [19] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: ry ry hammer editor is incredibly easy to use. it's not that it isn't easy to understand - It just does things in an awkward fashion. Why do you have to 'hollow out' an object or put all faces in place manually, rather than simply press a button to invert the faces? Why is moving vertices such a pain? Why can't you drag-select? Why isn't there a simple way to expand a room (all it should take is 2 new vertices and to drag them out) etc. Maybe i'm just too used to the simple yet functional editors of olde I think this has something to do with the enviroments you used to play in. Doom ect, was 90% indoor, and the outside parts where pretty much flat. also the Doom editor ( IIRC ) didn't allow two floors to exist above each other. Since new games these days have huge outside parts the old editors showed their weaknesses I think.
Shinnen Caldari Northern Intelligence The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.01.21 15:02:00 - [20] I learned the basics of Crysis Sandbox in a few hours, that's a lovely tool to use -- Banned since 2005, back by popular demand! They said it wouldn't happen!!
xyeLz	Posted - 2008.01.21 15:06:00 - [21] You just started, mate. Professional level designers are just that, professional. It's like comparing your running speed to that of someone who's trained for 10 years and won gold on the Olympics. Level designers at Valve are professional, and among the best in the world, payed for their skills that they accumulated with years of practise. That, and teamwork. They simply have alot more manhours into any one level.
corroded	Posted - 2008.01.21 17:12:00 - [22] hint: released tools for the public are not devtools. ya really think leveldesigners waste their time with clumsy designtools when there are complete packages to do it more efficiently? 1.make level in max/maya/whatever. 2.Import to engine. 3.release game with editor that¦s easier to learn than the real software. wanna do levels? learn a real 3d-prog, much more efficient.
Dheorl Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.21 17:19:00 - [23] You need to comprehend just how much time it takes game developers to make a game. For example, in Age of Empires III (I know this isn't HL2 or even an FPS) it took a guy a year of full time work just to get the water effects. I know the level builders that come with the games have all this stuff built in but that just helps to show how much work they put into a game that you don't really think about.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.01.25 02:30:00 - [24] Well I'm making a bit of progress now at least, but have spent SO much time on it already (easily 15h work) for what's really only about 6 minutes of gameplay Pic 1 Pic 2 Pic 3 (this room alone took 6h) Pic 4 (what i've done so far ish) IMO not too horrible anyway, considering it's my first (hammer) level what ya think?
Dan Glebitts One Ton Banana	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:41:00 - [25] Well I used to load up Autocad, set the snap distance to 8. Construct my entire map, then draw out all the 2d lines I needed. The longest process for me was the actual texturing and working around the inevitable bugs that would creep into those old editors. Using something like Autocad I could create some very complex scenery! Havent created a map since UT2003 though. I believe that the Unreal Editor way of carving your shapes from a solid was a far more robust way of making maps. The chance of holes appearing was much much slimmer.
Tajidan Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.25 10:44:00 - [26] i really doubt that they do their levels in hammer. i think i read once that they do it in maya and then port it to hammer. i made some levels for hl1, and it was a frickin pain in the ass. 4 hours of compiling just to find out that i have a leak somewhere, jeez, really told me a lesson about ctrl+s and saving into different versions http://www.eve-gfx.com
Kibbler GOONicide	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:55:00 - [27] Developers don't normally release the in-house editors they use; just a base version the public can use to edit and modify certain game elements. It would be a cleaner version that has been stripped of the art/design pipeline (at least for Hammer and Unreal). Most of the time, we have way more than just 1 person working on a single level. You have to think about the art, audio, lighting, scripting, placement... at least for AAA titles, you will very rarely see a LD take on an entire level solo. Teamwork! I've worked with Hammer, Unreal2004 (2.5?), Unreal3, and the BF2 editor. Unreal3 is my favorite, and yes, it takes a long time to get something going. Once you learn the basics and get used to the pipeline, things fall into place much easier. --Kibb
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.01.27 14:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Dan Glebitts I believe that the Unreal Editor way of carving your shapes from a solid was a far more robust way of making maps. The chance of holes appearing was much much slimmer. well, there wasn't any chance since 'leaks' couldn't happen (You don't have to build walls to seal a room, you just make a hole in a big endless mass of.. solidness) Quote: i made some levels for hl1, and it was a frickin pain in the ass. 4 hours of compiling just to find out that i have a leak somewhere, jeez, really told me a lesson about ctrl+s and saving into different versions 4 hours!? damn. It's taking longer and longer to compile my level the more progress I make, but it's no more than 5 mins absolute max and that's bad enough as i'm constantly making small changes and testing them, etc. I don't think I could work with 4 hours. Quote: Most of the time, we have way more than just 1 person working on a single level. You have to think about the art, audio, lighting, scripting, placement... at least for AAA titles, you will very rarely see a LD take on an entire level solo. Teamwork! Hmm, hard to imagine the dynamics of multiple people working on the same level file, outside of graphics artists providing textures, etc Quote: I've worked with Hammer, Unreal2004 (2.5?), Unreal3, and the BF2 editor. Unreal3 is my favorite, and yes, it takes a long time to get something going. Once you learn the basics and get used to the pipeline, things fall into place much easier. Yup... I'm getting quicker I think though, but it's taking me many hours at a time just to do a small amount of work (at least to the point where I'm happy with it) and many hours of just testing and testing, making tiny adjustments and testing some more... tis a pain, especially when trying to get some AI to do stuff

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