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After Action Review - The Fall of Querious

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ishkabibble Black Avatar Hexad	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:28:00 - [31] This is actually a great read and pretty much spot on.....sup Bird:) Let me add some dates to this: War roughly started x-mas of 06' when IRON moved into Khanid and stationed themselves in preparation for a grind in Q. March 07' RZR/MM join in as heavy hitters, seiging ED- and 9CG, but mostly 9CG as its a capital jump point to Delve. BoB only intervened when ED- was under threat of losing Sovereignty, when they came in when they heaviest of heavy ships to help out. Pure came in for some cleanup action around april/may 07' in force (rumor was that FIX was ready for the picking). August 07' this pretty much cooled off in Q with IRON relocating and RZR being seiged by MC up north, MM follows. September 2 more outposts go up in I1Y and 49-U. Guess FIX wasnt dead yet September IAC/BOS come in initially for some fun, then later FIX sov in 49-u is being contested by BOS with help of IAC. This lasts till about another 2 months in 49-U, couple of others join in for some heavy hitting, iirc Reckoning joined in on a 1 day op to test some dreads and get in a cap fleet to seige 5 towers, AAA was also heavy at the time. Jist of story, FIX has been under heavy attack since December 06' with very little room to breath. Most alliances would have folded in a much shorter time, let alone roughly 12 months. Grats to FIX for lasting this long, now its a waiting game to see whats gonna happen in Q. But as far as the mindset and way of life of FIX'ians, your spot on with your assesment BIRD, great writeup btw PS: These are rough timelines due to that i have no long term memory what so ever and i stopped caring whats gonna happen in Q when it was being outblobbed by everyone and their mother in EvE. Never argue with an Idiot. They'll bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience
Blight1 Caldari Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:34:00 - [32] Edited by: Blight1 on 20/01/2008 18:34:28 That text is an accurate depiction of the problems within FiX... As a former member I can remember several times when I lost a ship during ops, FiX held the field and my loot was stolen my members of FiX... FiX was very self centered and based around me first, **** everyone else. I can't say I'm not guilty, I took full advantage in stocking ED- with ships for people to buy at extortionary prices.. Not all of FiX was bad, it was just they way they had been for so long its hard to make changes after so many years of being the same. Live and Learn, and move on.. GL to everyone.
UKSwiss	Posted - 2008.01.20 19:13:00 - [33] Not quite sure why you felt the need to post here Bird to be honest. I think it should be made clear that this is not accurate and with all due respect to Bird is an outside observation of what happened. FIX hardly comitted anything to Catch so I'm not quite sure how it drained the resources as badly as you say. We were there merely as support, having fun and maybe fielding a few capitals and having roaming ops. The early attacks into Q that were done by Razor were all thwarted for at least 4 weeks, we would gather even numbers which would result in Razor simply using multiple safe spots then logging off, which happened on at least 6 occasions that I can recall. It was only when the superior numbers came from the coalition that we had problems although we still fought on our terms wherever possible. Whatever future lies ahead of FIX, its been a fantastic time in EVE and also a great honour to fly alongside BOB for the last 2 years and learn from the best pilots in the game!
BIRDofPREY Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION	Posted - 2008.01.20 20:02:00 - [34] Edited by: BIRDofPREY on 20/01/2008 20:04:28 Originally by: UKSwiss Not quite sure why you felt the need to post here Bird to be honest. I think it should be made clear that this is not accurate and with all due respect to Bird is an outside observation of what happened. FIX hardly comitted anything to Catch so I'm not quite sure how it drained the resources as badly as you say. We were there merely as support, having fun and maybe fielding a few capitals and having roaming ops. The early attacks into Q that were done by Razor were all thwarted for at least 4 weeks, we would gather even numbers which would result in Razor simply using multiple safe spots then logging off, which happened on at least 6 occasions that I can recall. It was only when the superior numbers came from the coalition that we had problems although we still fought on our terms wherever possible. Whatever future lies ahead of FIX, its been a fantastic time in EVE and also a great honour to fly alongside BOB for the last 2 years and learn from the best pilots in the game! Hey Swissie, Swiss, I really do like you and have a lot of respect for you. When I left KDM, you Valen06, Duck, Dakkor and Olav were the ones that I felt that I was going to miss most of all. I really felt bad that I had to leave. But that being said, I stand by my assessment of the situation in FIX *within the time frame I wrote about*. FIX is one of the oldest corps in game, but you must admit that it had gone sideways in the last days of QUERIOUS. You and many of our best PvP'rs were in Catch while some of us tried to make heads or tails of the situation in QUERIOUS. I was the one calling in both alliance and Q-INTEL for help in running out the advanced force, and getting derided for it by FIX leadership and the self proclaimed FC's. I will assure anyone in FIX (Save for that one person whom we both know) my guns are on safe for anyone in FIX. The reason for it being posted here was for discussion about the RAZOR side of the fight. Not to deride FIX in anyway other than a rather bleak assessment. FIX may or may not survive 2008, I hope it does. But for the time frame mentioned, I stand by my assessment. P.S. The corp that I'm in now... I feel like I'm trying to get a credit card from a Big Box Retail store. Kind of impersonal to be honest. Hope it improves... Fly Safe and please say 'Hi' before you blow my ship away...
Virgil Aquilis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.20 20:43:00 - [35] In this thread we attempt to make analogies between real-world militaries and inept internet spaceship alliances. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Chirinako Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.20 20:53:00 - [36] First off I'd like to say that many of your facts about what not to do in an alliance are very true. Unfortunately when applied to the situation that FIX found themselves in, you are very wrong and as someone that didn't work at leadership level you really don't know what you're talking about. You also seem to critisise what FIX didn't do, completely disregarding FIX's capability of dealing with certain things with the numbers pitted against it. As someone that worked at the highest level of leadership during this time in FIX, I know what I'm talking about. You, do not.
Virgil Aquilis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.20 20:55:00 - [37] And that's why BoB sniped you and threw everyone else in front of a bus. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:01:00 - [38] Edited by: Splagada on 20/01/2008 21:02:43 i cant believe someone took the time to type all this in a pdf Quote: (The Yom Kippur War comes to mind). this is where is stopped reading ------ Tides of Silence
Christopher Multsanti Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:07:00 - [39] Originally by: BIRDofPREY Edited by: BIRDofPREY on 20/01/2008 13:40:20 The following PDF file was written a few days after the fall of I1Y and during the evacuation by FIX of the QUERIOUS. I think that is has good bit of information on how to, and how not to run an alliance. Please ignore the grammar and seplling errors ^) Link Thats you isn't it Nez. Originally by:* Emperor D'Hoffryn /me holds his apoc close while cowering in the corner rocking slowly back and forth. Im so tired of waiting for my training to pay off.
Future Thing Ninja Warriors of the Round Table	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:14:00 - [40] Originally by: Chirinako First off I'd like to say that many of your facts about what not to do in an alliance are very true. Unfortunately when applied to the situation that FIX found themselves in, you are very wrong and as someone that didn't work at leadership level you really don't know what you're talking about. You also seem to critisise what FIX didn't do, completely disregarding FIX's capability of dealing with certain things with the numbers pitted against it. As someone that worked at the highest level of leadership during this time in FIX, I know what I'm talking about. You, do not. Well ofcourse it would be in your interest to say this, you're not exactly going to endorse a post that criticises you. Maybe provide some counter points/arguments and then you'll have a leg to stand on. "You are wrong because I say so" just ain't gonna cut it fella.
Chirinako Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Future Thing Originally by: Chirinako First off I'd like to say that many of your facts about what not to do in an alliance are very true. Unfortunately when applied to the situation that FIX found themselves in, you are very wrong and as someone that didn't work at leadership level you really don't know what you're talking about. You also seem to critisise what FIX didn't do, completely disregarding FIX's capability of dealing with certain things with the numbers pitted against it. As someone that worked at the highest level of leadership during this time in FIX, I know what I'm talking about. You, do not. Well ofcourse it would be in your interest to say this, you're not exactly going to endorse a post that criticises you. Maybe provide some counter points/arguments and then you'll have a leg to stand on. "You are wrong because I say so" just ain't gonna cut it fella. I have better things to do with my time than to write a few thousand words in a pdf, I don't have to prove myself to anyone. Just making my feelings known to Bird who is an ex corpmate of mine as of a few days ago. He knows he's exaggerating most of what he said.
Future Thing Ninja Warriors of the Round Table	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:19:00 - [42] Originally by: Chirinako I don't have to prove myself to anyone. And yet you post anyway. :(
Chirinako Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Future Thing Originally by: Chirinako I don't have to prove myself to anyone. And yet you post anyway. :( Yes, do you care that much?
Future Thing Ninja Warriors of the Round Table	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:39:00 - [44] Originally by: Chirinako Originally by: Future Thing Originally by: Chirinako I don't have to prove myself to anyone. And yet you post anyway. :( Yes, do you care that much? Stop trying to prove yourself! And yes, I infact care deeply :rollseyes:
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:42:00 - [45] Edited by: Nez Perces on 20/01/2008 21:44:24 Originally by: Christopher Multsanti Originally by: BIRDofPREY Edited by: BIRDofPREY on 20/01/2008 13:40:20 The following PDF file was written a few days after the fall of I1Y and during the evacuation by FIX of the QUERIOUS. I think that is has good bit of information on how to, and how not to run an alliance. Please ignore the grammar and seplling errors *^) Link Thats you isn't it Nez. Oh god... no.... I didn't even read that pdf in its entirety... its too long. Bottom line is any alliance that relinquishes its independence to cling onto 0.0 space when their sell by date has long expired.. is an alliance that sucks donkey balls. I don't need to read a ridiculously long pdf to know that, and neither does anybody else... FIX leadership sucked.. yeah ofc they did, they voluntarily acquiesced to BoB rule. As did the leadership in the other BoB pet alliances. [edit: clarity]
Virgil Aquilis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.20 21:44:00 - [46] Well, considering the leadership got pretty much absorbed into BoB, it was a brilliant move on their part. Sucks for the rest of those scrubs in FIX whose stuff is still stuck in the stations, though. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Tequilapepper Amarr Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.01.20 22:09:00 - [47] Edited by: Tequilapepper on 20/01/2008 22:12:29 Edited by: Tequilapepper on 20/01/2008 22:09:47 Some of you may know me, some may not. For those who don't I am quite happy of that. Your PDF is quite ridicolous for 2 reasons. First is that what is true there is generically true, and is called international politics. Does not matter is a game. Second is, that if you really need to write that kind of crap I am happy, means that we scare people around still a lot, and I can't be other than surprised of that. Try to study some history, even Roman Empire storywriters used to praise their enemies to increase the sound of their victory, so your attempt is against the propaganda method itself. but what is almost upsetting is the inaccuracy of most of the "tales" you wrote there. but I tell you something: I don't care if phisically at the beginning the stations were named "BoB" or not, we hold this ground since... always. We are under permanent siege since 2 years, I can remember at top 5-6 weeks without someone trying to **** in our grass, and still we held. while other alliance had time to recover and build titans and moms, we had to watch out to replaces Bs and HACS to our memebrs fighting on the ground. Sometimes you lose morale and sometime you lose floor, or entire regions. I am not entirely sure that was a great idea to put us in the position of attacking and preparing, to keep us on the backfoot was prolly the best way to keep us not dangerous. I will not discuss the single points in your list, because mainly your analysis is absolutely childish where is not compeltely biased. So thank for having stolen 5 minutes of my life to read your crap, it is completely useless. Apologies in advance for errors and typos, I am not a motherlanguage. Regards Teq
WildcardTrek Caldari Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.20 22:23:00 - [48] So in essence FIX fell so Molle could post his "Fat Lady Sings" post on COAD... amirite
DerHund Erste Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.01.20 22:34:00 - [49] Edited by: DerHund Erste on 20/01/2008 22:36:50 Originally by: Nez Perces Bottom line is any alliance that relinquishes its independence to cling onto 0.0 space when their sell by date has long expired.. The milk expired way back here: http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/CRII/15.05.108.jpg Fix went "unleashed", but then BoB tossed out the Huzzah et.al. coalition and let Fix rebuild under their protection: http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/CRII/01.06.108.jpg Its hard to remember back to the time when there was a station called "Fix Eastern Command". - DerHund
Tearavygh Quillam Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.20 23:11:00 - [50] Originally by: Tequilapepper First is that what is true there is generically true, and is called international politics. Does not matter is a game. contradicts: Originally by: Tequilapepper Try to study some history, even Roman Empire storywriters used to praise their enemies to increase the sound of their victory, so your attempt is against the propaganda method itself. (certainly Roman storywritters were masters of objectivenes) Originally by: Tequilapepper I will not discuss the single points in your list, because mainly your analysis is absolutely childish where is not compeltely biased. gets proved by : Originally by: BIRDofPREY Avoid matching post for post and other forms of "Forum Whoring". Hmm, funny ain't it...
Kera Delacour Evenstar Industries	Posted - 2008.01.20 23:19:00 - [51] Mmm no offense intended to the OP but you can probably rinse and repeat this, replacing FIX with ISS, RISE and any number of other BoB "Allies" that have fallen. What's described here is exactly how BoB has dealt with all of their allies ever since the war turned against them. ----------- EVNS, bringing quality carebearing to a solar system near you!
Jordan Musgrat Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.01.20 23:31:00 - [52] You meant to say "no opposition from us" Fredo. Less than a month after you got steamrolled, we started having problems with IAC, or maybe you don't remember the whole 49-U/25S/FAT campaign? And we didn't exactly "give up." Too bad you brought in guys from 8+ alliances, we could have made it fun. Bird and Ishy, the writeup is partly right. There are some very good points, and it's true that leadership kind of failed us, not any 1 person's fault, but all the same, we should have lasted much longer. But for you to say that we let cloaking 10km/second sabres, rapiers, cloaking/damping Ravens/Megas/Geddons go unmolested, you'd be horribly wrong. We killed them a few times, but they were back the next day in new ships, and in case you haven't noticed, it can be hard to catch a cloaked anything. They did well at what they did though. But it was no fault of ours. Blight, sorry you're bitter, the circumstances behind why you left were not the best, but best of luck with your new ventures :) At the rest of you, BoB didn't screw us over, we did. The pdf is well written from an outside point of view, I almost doubt that anyone in FIX wrote it though. There are many good points, but it's very lacking in scope. Interesting read in any case. Fly safe Bird. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Valen06 KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.01.20 23:41:00 - [53] Originally by: Chirinako First off I'd like to say that many of your facts about what not to do in an alliance are very true. Unfortunately when applied to the situation that FIX found themselves in, you are very wrong and as someone that didn't work at leadership level you really don't know what you're talking about. You also seem to critisise what FIX didn't do, completely disregarding FIX's capability of dealing with certain things with the numbers pitted against it. As someone that worked at the highest level of leadership during this time in FIX, I know what I'm talking about. You, do not. Chiri, when I read this, I got flashbacks when FIX were involved in 'fair fights' and you were on TS shouting and generally making your presence know to all and how important you were. You made damn sure that everyone got the impression that you were somehow incredibly important and that you were one of the main leaders. What did you do 4 nights before I1Y fell? You came on TS drunk, muttered a few words, and that was the last I heard of your 'Highest level of FIX leadership' opinion. Well, it seams that your superior leadership advice has gone to BoB now, and frankly, I dont think an FC that shouts for the sake of it on TS will cut it with them, they have plenty of FC's who know exactly what they are doing. Thanks for your leadership over the past month, your silence was deafening. FIX, however, I hope will survive. Bird? Nice write-up btw.
Liet Traep Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:07:00 - [54] Originally by: BIRDofPREY PROPAGANDA (C) Many in FIX leadership may not want to admit it, but the constant drum beat of ôBoB Petsö and ôMeat Shieldö had an effect on the member base. Recruiting by corporations, desperate for an influx of replacement members, was hampered by these malicious labels which were generally accepted within the EVE player base. This was FIX's downfall. Fix has been seen as nothing but an appendage of BOB's so long that it was a given that any attack plan against BOB would automatically include FIX. The truth is that FIX for all intent and purpose was dominated by BOB and existed as a sovereign entity in name only. You are never going to become strong living in the shadow of another. FIX has learned a costly lesson. It could regroup in empire and continue to support BOB. Also it could regard it's ancestral home of Querious a lost cause for now and go and regroup on it's own terms. Find 0.0 region with npc stations that you can move into and refocus. On FIX's terms and no one elses. It's not as easy going your own way but you'll be the stronger for it. These are my own ideas and do no in anyway shape or form reflect my coor or alliance's feelings. [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgame
Space Penguin Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:18:00 - [55] Originally by: Angor they were too busy doing "the daily fix" paper thing to defend everybody knows that. Not sure if you were serious in that quote but to put matters straight The Daily FIX is written by me and me alone and has nothing at all to do with any level of FIX other than the fact that I happen to be in that Alliance.
Angry Dan Caldari Widowmakers	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:24:00 - [56] I'm going to reply to this based on my experience from Huzzah Federation and NOS. Huzzah did have excellent leadership, we lacked the logistics and capital fleet to survive without a bigger, stronger ally (in providence, it was CVA, in the catch/querious campaigns, it was Stain Alliance). Some of your advice is really good. HF's campaign into catch directly led to it's breakup and the formation of NOS. As a member of HF's leadership team (I'm not even exactly sure how I was), I wasn't satisfied with the long term chances of HF's survival. Without a serious build up of our logistics train and capital fleet, we were doomed. That requires peacetime and direction. The majority of the leadership were fixated on pew pew, and weren't dedicating enough time to the support operations. A small minority of industrial corps stayed in providence, and continued the original HF master plan (more on that later). We were constantly harangued by the alliance leadership about pulling our weight in alliance ops, when in fact, we were the group trying to keep the supply lines through HED-GP open, fighting Traid (who we considered FIX proxies, seeing as they only appeared disrupting our ops after the catch war started). When we capital bombed FAT-GP with SA in tow, my corp, who had already taken the lead in protecting the providence section, took the lead again and split off to form NOS. We could see where this was going. HF had a decent PVP core, but a number of flaws that were going to break it, and break it quickly. Minimal capital fleet No industrial market in catch Total lack of respect for the industrialists trying to build any 0.0 production capability Disjointed logistics built on an ad-hoc basis No planning for major operations No vetting of applications, resulting in HF being riddled with spies Secretive high command, who didn't discuss plans outside of the cabal I've emboldened the correlations from your PDF about FIX. NOS failed for a different set of reasons. We had originally (with HF) planned to deploy an outpost the pocket in providence, but had never been able to arrange the cash to do it. Eventually, as NOS, we got enough of it together to get started, assuming we had a outpost pod. A newish member of the alliance promised to supply one, so the alliance command started to rake in the isk promised to the scheme. At which point, the promised oputpost egg vanished, leaving the alliance command with a very large pile of trade goods that are only really useful for building an outpost, and a multi billion isk debt (in case your wondering, that's mostly paid back, I ensured it by personally visiting our CEO, who had the iskies. I'd only give money to someone I can getting back from, and flatmates are the easiest people to apply pressure too). So, the membership were understandably upset, with the failure in the program and suddenly being collectively out of pocket. A large group (the competent PVP wing) split to form momemtum, came back a few weeks alter and pirated NOS. At that point I gave up and took a fairly short sabbatical, so I don't know about the rest of the collapse of NOS. Both alliances failed for different reasons. Huzzah died for a number of reasons similar to your summary of FIX. I totally reccomed this guide, as an example of how not to do it. Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Originally by: Butter Dog Good Sportsmanship > Winning.
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:43:00 - [57] Edited by: Nez Perces on 21/01/2008 00:44:05 One of the things that really annoys me about this whole sorry FIX story.... is that FIX wasn't always a 3rd rate alliance, BoB lapdog, with no business claiming 0.0 space. There was a time when FIX was ranked as one of better alliances in the game, a time when FIX pvp capabilities were respected by friend and foe, a time when its FC's were some of the best FC's the game had to offer. This was pre-CODA, at around the time the North vs South charade.... when ASCN and G still existed. .... but ofc very few remember that FIX... now the FIX everybody knows is the one described in that pdf.... For that I hope that the FIX leadership that thought it was a good idea to cowtow to BoB..... I hope you burn in EVE hell.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.21 00:59:00 - [58] Originally by: Maksiim FIX held out against overwhelming odds for over a year with only sporadic assistance from BoB. -A- tried to take space, Razor/IRON tried for over a year to take there space it was only when they got uberblobbed they caved. It was a good run they had, they are still around. Fix only survived the first iron/rzr assault because of bob capitals. Saying otherwise makes you look delusional. Iron/rzr gangs held basically all the systems whenever they wanted, and the only times when fix contested in a fleet fight is when a pos came out of reinforced and there are 40 bob capitals+unnerfed titans ready to cyno in. When BoB could no longer bail them out, fix folded like a house of cards.
BIRDofPREY Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION	Posted - 2008.01.21 02:00:00 - [59] When I was in the service, I participated in the invasion of Panama (Operation Just Cause) in 1989. Dispite what was being hailed in the media as a great sucess, the After Action Review was horible to sit through. I remeber following my CO into the briefing on Ft Lewis when he turned to me and said "Ready to shed some blood?" He was right... it was nasty in there. You would have thought, not only that we lost the invasion, but Arizona, New Mexico and parts of Texas as well. I didn't even want to know what a AAR after a loss was like. An Execution? Some have simply dismissed this as rubbish and without merit. Others have come to the defense of the PDF. It is in fact without specifics as it was intended. Specifics are antidotal and such evidence serves only that moment and not indicative of an overall problem. FIX was not a cohesive during the final months in QUERIOUS. PvP'r complained of too many 'carebears' in alliance, 'not xing up for gangs'. 3-FK was not held by FIX for any remarkable length of them; indeed, I was shocked when the 3-FK gate to EFA was left untended for 30 minutes. Z-UZZN was held effectively by 3 characters, when a player was caught in the belts by two of them, there was a call for assistance; he was there to test his tank and was caught off guard. I ran to Z-UZZN to assit, but got there too late. In Q-INTEL was a line that angered me. "What idiot rats with a hostile in system?" How about an unlucky or inexperienced one. These are antidotes only... incidental evidence. The PvP'rs in FIX are the best in the book. I will state that hands down. But they were several jumps away from the FIX space. There was a psychology in the leadership that "BoB would come," and assisting BoB in CATCH was effectively protecting QUERIOUS. My vocal Scottish critic above was guilty of that [Caution Clansman, I know about fire and steel too]. The industrial base was left to rott. Corps and players left, FIX was bled dry. I do not critise BoB for not coming to QUERIOUS. They were engaged with MC in a rather titanic struggle that has the player base grasping for information. BoB acted with it's interest in mind. FIX needed to stand on it's own and was found lacking due to the shortsighted views of it's elected leaders. The question is; Do we learn from this or continue to make the same mistakes later. Do we pass this "Lessons learned" on to would be Directors and CEO's? I think so. Live and Learn... at any rate Live... BIRDofPREY
BIRDofPREY Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION	Posted - 2008.01.21 02:05:00 - [60] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat You meant to say "no opposition from us" Fredo I FRACKING LOVE THIS LINE!!! "...You broke my heart Fredo.."

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