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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.01.27 21:16:00 -
[61]
Seriously I tested ECM drones against my alt when trying to make the celestis work in trinity. Dampners with lock time scripts and ECM drones.
3 medium ECM drones, 2 small. against a harbinger.
The result?
During about 5 min testing, 3 jams, or something similar. (which translates pretty well to about 20% every 20 sec). So you can expect a jam about every 100 sec. Don't know the exact chances for 5 meds, but if its 30% in theory its the same in game. (1 jam / minute).
Everyone here claiming that small drones perma jam a BS are just exaggerating.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.27 21:58:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Tell me this Cpt Branko, what kind of drones do you normally put in your hurricane?
I know I'm not Cpt Branko, but I fly the hurricane: Warrior/Hobgoblin II's. I'm much more likely to fit ECM drones on ship with unbonused drones and a 50-75 m^3 drone bay.
-Liang
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Dalen III
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.01.27 22:08:00 -
[63]
I like ECM drones they make it so I don't have to train up anymore of the drone subskills. T2 drones damage compared to jamming effect in solo and groups . If your flying with anything other then ECM drone your either in bonused drone ship or haven't caught on yet. Don't blame me, blame the main I'm supporting. |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.01.27 22:10:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/01/2008 22:10:14
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed.
I just used my Ishtar to sick waves of medium ECM drones on my Hurricane. I wasn't once jammed, and I sat there for two to three minutes just waiting for the jam. I got bored and blew all the drones up in less time than it took to tell my corpies on vent about the situation.
-Liang
-- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt.
Consider yourself warned. ^_^ |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.01.27 22:33:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Dr Fighter ECM drones the new multispec for your drone bay?
ive seen a huge increase in the use of ECM drones in mid to small pvp gangs, and it sucks.
ive NEVER EVER seen any damp drones being used, just ecm drones and in a way you cant blame anyone fitting them, they work VERY well.
nw its not the strength, more the number of chances.
Its making pvp predictable and dull, and dont say 'fit eccm' because unless you hav 3 or more 95% boosters you wont notice any difference.
please ccp, take a look
Its called a smartbomb,use one and watch the pile of their ecm drones pop....Happened to me more then a number of times and is annoying as hell. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.28 01:08:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/01/2008 22:10:14
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed.
I just used my Ishtar to sick waves of medium ECM drones on my Hurricane. I wasn't once jammed, and I sat there for two to three minutes just waiting for the jam. I got bored and blew all the drones up in less time than it took to tell my corpies on vent about the situation.
-Liang
LIES! Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Rollotamasi
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Posted - 2008.01.28 03:24:00 -
[67]
Originally by: General Coochie Seriously I tested ECM drones against my alt when trying to make the celestis work in trinity. Dampners with lock time scripts and ECM drones.
3 medium ECM drones, 2 small. against a harbinger.
The result?
During about 5 min testing, 3 jams, or something similar. (which translates pretty well to about 20% every 20 sec). So you can expect a jam about every 100 sec. Don't know the exact chances for 5 meds, but if its 30% in theory its the same in game. (1 jam / minute).
Everyone here claiming that small drones perma jam a BS are just exaggerating.
Really funny this thread popped up. I was just in EFT messing around with a celestis trying to come up with something useful to do with it after the damp nerf. I had the exact same idea. 3 Med ECM / 2 light with three damps with lock time scripts. I thought I was being original and stumbled on to something great. Thanks for telling me it sucks lol. At least now I wont waste time.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.28 09:50:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/01/2008 09:52:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed.
Actually, 5 warrior IIs are preety awesome when you need to kill other people's drones. Plus, they're quite useful to send after small stuff.
For outright DPS addition, they're not so awesome, but meh. A full flights of light ECM drones isn't that awesome either.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.01.28 11:14:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/01/2008 09:52:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But hurricane has unbonused drones and 5x light ecm is enough to mess up other battlecruisers enough to get a bigger edge then 5xwarrior/hobo's would have given you and this is the issue and that needs to be changed.
Actually, 5 warrior IIs are preety awesome when you need to kill other people's drones. Plus, they're quite useful to send after small stuff.
For outright DPS addition, they're not so awesome, but meh. A full flights of light ECM drones isn't that awesome either.
This is true,the only reason people complain about said drones is because the other guy got extremely lucky...This has happened to me when i use them,sometimes you never jam him until he dies and sometimes he will never ever lock you. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth |
Jaro Brutus
La Isla del Mono
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Posted - 2008.01.28 11:16:00 -
[70]
Do ECM drones receive bonuses from ships like vexor/arbitrator? In a gang without proper ecm specialized ships, can those cruisers perform like a Blackbird for instance?
Regards
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.01.28 11:17:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Jaro Brutus Do ECM drones receive bonuses from ships like vexor/arbitrator? In a gang without proper ecm specialized ships, can those cruisers perform like a Blackbird for instance?
Regards
No. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth |
Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2008.01.28 11:43:00 -
[72]
The performance of ECM drones might (*might*) not be broken, however the SP you need to get that performance most definately is.
If you compare thorax vs thorax with 5 t2 hammers vs 5 med ECM drones the ECM drones let one thorax avoid about as much damage as the hammer2s are dealing. So that seems about fine from the performance point of view.
The little difference is that for the ECM drones to operate at full performance you need 300k SP. For the hammer2s you need over 2 mil SP!
ECM drones should be reduced to 40% of their current performance and get the same bonus from drone interfacing as other drones and a 5% bonus/lvl from EW drone interfacing, resulting in them having their current strength at maxed skills with about the same SP cost as combat drones.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.01.28 18:34:00 -
[73]
This thread has finally turned into a good discussion, which is nice to see.
some things people are forgetting: when calculating the jam odds from drone jam strength dont forget to include the 4 other drones at work at the same time and dont for get that every cycle that doesnt jam theres 5 more rolls in 20 seconds. A fight lasting say 2 minutes would open up 50 chances for a jam, which MASSIVELY ups the chance of jamming.
poeple say "fit eccm, for each one on paper you are twice as hard to jam, this isnt the case in PRACTICE.
people who say "kill the drones", most ships wont gimp their setup for a smartie especially in empire, shooting the drones is fine as long as you use your web to hold them as your target will escape.
The other drones stack to their disadvantage, its not a secret that ECM is the best EW, so why would anyone WANT to fit any other type. Just means ships that shouldn't hav a chance now can escape or win fights they should loose if their 'luck is good'.
Luck is something eve doesn't do, its precise, and thats why alot of people like it, it takes skill at the controls and skill in training and skill in friends - chance based is just not 'eve like'.
theres alot of defense use of ECM drones, IE ships not really meant for a direct fight will use them as a kinda warp stab back up (sniper BS, support ships).
ECM is an hugely powerful EW tool and CCP made ECM harder to use where unless you were using an EW ship they sucked, this stopped the 'multi in spare mids cowboys', but then gave 80% of the ships in game back the very same no brainier ECM slot.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.28 19:40:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
ECM is an hugely powerful EW tool and CCP made ECM harder to use where unless you were using an EW ship they sucked, this stopped the 'multi in spare mids cowboys', but then gave 80% of the ships in game back the very same no brainier ECM slot.
Exactly, now they need to get rid of it. Just like uber-dps eos and myrm. These need the nerf. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Laboratus
Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.01.28 19:52:00 -
[75]
Just fit fof missiles, sb and kill those drones. Its easy almost effortles And get out of high sec ffs. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.28 20:17:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Laboratus Just fit fof missiles, sb and kill those drones. Its easy almost effortles And get out of high sec ffs.
Sb in high sec? No. Get out of high sec? Why? So we can leave all carebear corps alone? You know some people dont want sit in a 100 man blob in 0.0 every day. Some like to not worry about bubbles and fight in empire. Did you actually read and think about why these drones are causing trouble? Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Laboratus
Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.01.28 20:42:00 -
[77]
Small gang null sec pvp ftw.
Yes, I've used drones, I've been targeted by drones and there is no problem with drones. Noone is forcing you to fight hugging a gate. Be smart, bump and profit. A single cycle of SB will force your enemy to withdraw drones or face concequences (of losing drones after the next ones). ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Veryez
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Posted - 2008.01.28 21:41:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
BAM! there it is
while all the other EW drones get worse the more there are of them (and i mean the 4 max stacking should simply not be applied to something which is nearly always in groups of 5, thats just plain silly).
ECM drones get ALOT better the more there of them, wheres the stacking penalty? WHERE?
Where's the % chance failure on Damps, Disrupters or Painters? That's right there is no probability of failure, damps, disrupters and painters work all the time without fail. Without stacking penalities, the other drones would be extremely overpowered. It's a choice a pilot makes to give up DPS to carry ECM drones, just like it's a choice you make to not carry measures against them. So a pilot gives up 10% to 50% of his DPS for a 30% chance to jam you, which you can take measures against. Sounds fair to me. Oh and chance and luck are certainly a part of eve, otherwise a smaller ship should have no chance against a larger ship. No, our task is to outfit our ships to minimize chance and luck working against us.
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.01.28 22:08:00 -
[79]
Just wanna point out that outside optimal range which is only 45 km with dampeners (with full skills I think) they are chance dependent.
Probing is chance based.
There are more things in eve chance based then ECM..
Ok lets take an example here.
2 Thoraxes fight.
They are using this fit (to put the thorax using ecm drones at a huge unrealistic advantage).
5 Neutrons II 3 Magstabs II
Skills are fairly high in both blasters and drones.
One rax is using Hammerhead IIs, the other EC-600 (med ecm drone).
The chance the ECM rax has to jam the dps rax is 40% every 20sec. On average it should jam it once every 50sec.
During the 12 seconds + 5 seconds (time for the dps rax to lock again) the ECM thorax can deal additional dps to the other rax that is jammed. equal to 5780 damage.
During the 67 seconds this jam takes the dps thorax deals 8844 dps with drones.
Now take into consideration a real fit and the ECM thorax will have an even huger disadvantage.
It means that the dps thorax will win most such battes.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.01.28 22:45:00 -
[80]
That about concludes that. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
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Tsu'ko
Valley Forge STELLAR LEGION
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Posted - 2008.01.29 11:51:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Tsu''ko on 29/01/2008 11:52:18 After reading this thread makes me want to put some ecm drones in a geddon and see what happends As EW sucks for amarr, need to use drones to compensate, no nerf imo. Hope they will increase more of the amarr ships drone bay (bandwidth can be the same) so we can field both ecm drones and damage drones (maybe not full "rack" of dmg drones)
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.29 13:38:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Tsu'ko Edited by: Tsu''ko on 29/01/2008 11:52:18 After reading this thread makes me want to put some ecm drones in a geddon and see what happends As EW sucks for amarr, need to use drones to compensate, no nerf imo. Hope they will increase more of the amarr ships drone bay (bandwidth can be the same) so we can field both ecm drones and damage drones (maybe not full "rack" of dmg drones)
If you face another geddon or any other BS for that matter without ecm of his own youll steam roll across their faces. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.29 13:42:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/01/2008 13:42:34
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
If you face another geddon or any other BS for that matter without ecm of his own youll steam roll across their faces.
If you're lucky with jams and they don't fit smartbombs or ECCM, yes. Did I say you need to get lucky as well? Well, you do.
Quite a gamble, isn't it?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.29 13:44:00 -
[84]
think coochie wins the thread
/discussion. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.29 13:57:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/01/2008 13:52:51 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/01/2008 13:42:34
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
If you face another geddon or any other BS for that matter without ecm of his own youll steam roll across their faces.
If you're lucky with jams and they don't fit smartbombs or ECCM, yes. Did I say you need to get lucky as well? Well, you do.
Quite a gamble, isn't it?
Besides, Coochie won the thread.
First off many battleships fit a neut before a SB, if they have spare highs like minmatar BS they fit both sure. Also no one fits eccm, it sucks. Because even if you fit one you can jammed by medium ecm drones wich is redicilous.
Oh and in empire wars and close to gate/stations ecm drones cant be countered either. A gamble? Yeah it is NOT to fit ecm drones. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.29 14:00:00 -
[86]
Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 28/01/2008 22:21:50 Just wanna point out that outside optimal range which is only 45 km with dampeners (with full skills I think) they are chance dependent.
Probing is chance based.
There are more things in eve chance based then ECM..
Ok lets take an example here.
2 Thoraxes fight.
They are using this fit (to put the thorax using ecm drones at a huge unrealistic advantage).
5 Neutrons II 3 Magstabs II
Skills are fairly high in both blasters and drones.
One rax is using Hammerhead IIs, the other EC-600 (med ecm drone).
The chance the ECM rax has to jam the dps rax is 40% every 20sec. On average it should jam it once every 50sec.
During the 12 seconds + 5 seconds (time for the dps rax to lock again) the ECM thorax can deal additional dps to the other rax that is jammed. equal to 5780 damage.
During the 67 seconds this jam takes the dps thorax deals 8844 damage with drones.
Basicly the ECM thorax trades a probability to have a 200dps advantage for 17 sec for having a 132 dps disadvantage for 50 sec.
Now take into consideration a real fit and the ECM thorax will have an even huger disadvantage.
It means that the dps thorax will win most such battles.
I hope I got that right, kinda tired, might have overlooked smth.
Of course ECM drones might be better to maybe jam a tackler. Or in other situations. But I think thats totally fine. You choose a bit protection or dps. Totally fine by me.
I do agree on the training time for ewar drones, its way to short. When I realized how short it was I was like "wtf did I train drone interfacing with my alt before training EWAR drones"
You know why your calculations fail? Because thorax has a high damage / tank ratio. Do the same calculations with 2 ships that have more tank and less gallente blaster gank and youll be proving the opposite. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II |
Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.29 17:37:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You know why your calculations fail? Because thorax has a high damage / tank ratio. Do the same calculations with 2 ships that have more tank and less gallente blaster gank and youll be proving the opposite.
I think lyria won the thread.
/discussion
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Lithel
Amarr The Soviet Galactic Union
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Posted - 2008.01.30 00:53:00 -
[88]
Nobody has mentioned nossing drones.... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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L70Rogue
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Posted - 2008.01.30 07:04:00 -
[89]
thread over Lyria wins thread.
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.01.30 08:10:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Lithel Nobody has mentioned nossing drones....
Neutralizer drones aren't really that great sure its free cap drain but it takes forever to make it worth it.
Also make Tracking disruptor's affect missiles
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