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xergher	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:25:00 - [1] Just would like to suggest that CCP remove all the T2 BPO items in the Marketplace. They are a complete waste of space, you can't even get them any more so get rid of the completely useless blueprint sections, no-one ever uses them so it's just a waste of time having them there. Would be better to allow BPC sales in Marketplace and seperate them out by Originals or Copies option even though I don't believe you can with how the system currently operates (no. of copies, ME, PE, etc.).
Mona Lou Essence Research Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:36:00 - [2] Market is easy way to get blueprint info though. Instead of BPC on market I would rather see BPC specific filters on Contracts (ability to list BPO/BPC only, min ME/PE/Run filter).
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:48:00 - [3] Originally by: Mona Lou Market is easy way to get blueprint info though. Instead of BPC on market I would rather see BPC specific filters on Contracts (ability to list BPO/BPC only, min ME/PE/Run filter). I'd love to see the ability to sort by Runs. 0 = BPO, > #, = #, etc. The ME/PE should be on a > system as well. That said, T2 BPO's are in a horrible state right now. People are trying to put them up for sale at 8-10+ billion when they actually lose you money to produce with em. The harpy bpo on contracts right now for 10b for example. If you produced harpy's at Jita prices you'd lose money and be in the hole 10b on the BPO. The 1MN afterburner isn't much better. 8b for it on contracts and it yields about 2.5-3 bil per year. What moron is so stupid as to buy them at these prices? Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.27 22:00:00 - [4] Lots of people are. T2 BPOs are rockstars. The people buying them aren't actually doing a real financial analysis, they're just buying on name recognition.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.27 23:22:00 - [5] Edited by: Robacz on 27/01/2008 23:23:31 Originally by: Shadarle That said, T2 BPO's are in a horrible state right now. People are trying to put them up for sale at 8-10+ billion when they actually lose you money to produce with em. The harpy bpo on contracts right now for 10b for example. If you produced harpy's at Jita prices you'd lose money and be in the hole 10b on the BPO. The 1MN afterburner isn't much better. 8b for it on contracts and it yields about 2.5-3 bil per year. What moron is so stupid as to buy them at these prices? Well most of T2 module BPOs sell for reasonable prices, that guy who put 3 T2 BPOs on Contracts today must have some evil plan or is plain crazy (all three prices are insane). But I can imagine, that for 0.0 alliances BPOs have another than just "profit" value, especially ships. It is still a lot easier to build from BPO than invent and build later. BTW I did my calc on that 1MN AB earlier, and it was closer to 4B with POS, production implant and some PE. Even though Jita price is kind of standard for pricing T2 BPOs, it is not necessary to sell there for lowest prices in Eve universe - real profit from T2 BPO can be higher than "Jita calc" says.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.27 23:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Robacz BTW I did my calc on that 1MN AB earlier, and it was closer to 4B with POS, production implant and some PE. Even though Jita price is kind of standard for pricing T2 BPOs, it is not necessary to sell there for lowest prices in Eve universe - real profit from T2 BPO can be higher than "Jita calc" says. Not sure how you managed to come to 4B on it, best I could come up with was 3.2 and that was being very generous. I also was being very generous with my selling prices, looking around for places that bought for better prices. Component prices, however, I used Jita prices as if someone else had them lower then you could just make money transporting the components and skip the building and buying of T2 BPO's. I am very much in the market for some decent T2 BPO's... but the prices people seem to expect on Contracts are insane. Perhaps that's what they payed a year ago, it's not what they are worth now. Not with the increase in moon prices. Not sure people realize that an increase in production cost means a decrease in T2 BPO value as well if sell prices don't rise accordingly. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.28 00:03:00 - [7] Well it is about 15000+ units per year with PE 10, rapid POS and production implant. So depends what profit you calc with. It is hard to get good T2 BPOs these days, I used to dump all my cash on them, but last few months I can't get any. However those smaller ones (under 8B) sometimes seem to sell for reasonable prices. Demand is a lot higher than supply. I know many people constantly looking for good T2 BPOs. Also half of those T2 BPOs on contracts are sold by same reseller who keep recycling his alts. Since he camp channel all the time, he gets good deals and reprice them to not-so-good ones.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.28 00:32:00 - [8] Haha, it looks like someone bought the 1mn for 8b. Production Cost: 630,806 Sell Price: 850,000 Without the implant thats 3.16b per year. So basically someone is fine with taking 2.5 years just to recoup their investment. Basically a 3.33% return per month. Pitiful. You can do better producing most T1 items and you don't even need a POS for that. The Mega Pulse Laser II BPO at least earns a decent amount of money... but even so it takes 2-3 years to recoup the investment. So again around a 3-5% monthly return. T2 Production and sales is too annoying (imo) to warrant such a horrid return. People really have nothing else to do with their money if they settle for such horrid prices. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Menkaure Amarr Vanitas Corp.	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:12:00 - [9] Edited by: Menkaure on 28/01/2008 01:11:58 Originally by: Shadarle recoup the investment Meh, you recoup the investment when you resell the BPO later, you don't recoup it from profits. I'm not saying its a good idea -infact its downright stupid, there are better things to invest your isk into with much higher rates of return, but its not as big a loss as you make it out to be. Just stupid, not r etarded.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Menkaure Edited by: Menkaure on 28/01/2008 01:11:58 Originally by: Shadarle recoup the investment Meh, you recoup the investment when you resell the BPO later, you don't recoup it from profits. I'm not saying its a good idea -infact its downright stupid, there are better things to invest your isk into with much higher rates of return, but its not as big a loss as you make it out to be. Just stupid, not r etarded. If you reread my post you'll notice the reason I calculated how long it would take to recoup would be to find out when you earned 100% profit off it and thus be able to divide that by the time taken. I then specified the pitiful return generated. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 05:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Mona Lou Market is easy way to get blueprint info though. Just type out the bpo name in local and right click it into an infotype or whatever tf they call it. Personally I get annoyed trying to pc Ogre IIs and having to select it again because the ******* bpo is in the list too
SencneS Amarr Spartan Industrial Manufacturing SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 06:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Shadarle Basically a 3.33% return per month. Which is pathetic because you can take almost any T1 BPO and make at least 5%(A lot more if you put effort into it). 8bil for that 1MN you could have purchased a LOT of T1 BPOs. Amarr for Life
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.28 06:12:00 - [13] Originally by: SencneS Originally by: Shadarle Basically a 3.33% return per month. Which is pathetic because you can take almost any T1 BPO and make at least 5%(A lot more if you put effort into it). 8bil for that 1MN you could have purchased a LOT of T1 BPOs. Exactly. Which is why I am calling whoever bought that BPO a moron. Even at 1 years price a T2 BPO is not all that amazing, but it's decent enough. At 2.5 years value it isn't even close to worth it... too great a chance the BPO will be turned into a BPC in that time. 2.5 years is a long time. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.01.28 06:36:00 - [14] To put this all into perspective, that sales/production figure is equivalent to 2500 isk per minute (approx). That's the average rate of return of any one of Dusk Blades production lines which each BPO, of which each BPO costs a mere 4.5 million credits. Improve Market Competition!
YouGotRipped Gallente Ewigkeit Galactic Research	Posted - 2008.01.28 07:17:00 - [15] Originally by: xergher Just would like to suggest that CCP remove all the T2 BPO items in the Marketplace. They are a complete waste of space, you can't even get them any more so get rid of the completely useless blueprint sections, no-one ever uses them so it's just a waste of time having them there. Would be better to allow BPC sales in Marketplace and seperate them out by Originals or Copies option even though I don't believe you can with how the system currently operates (no. of copies, ME, PE, etc.). T2 BPOs are not a complete waste of space. They still hold informative value. As for the BPCs there is not standardization for ME / PE whatever nor such a clutter would be desired.
heyzeus435	Posted - 2008.01.28 07:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: SencneS Originally by: Shadarle Basically a 3.33% return per month. Which is pathetic because you can take almost any T1 BPO and make at least 5%(A lot more if you put effort into it). 8bil for that 1MN you could have purchased a LOT of T1 BPOs. Exactly. Which is why I am calling whoever bought that BPO a moron. Even at 1 years price a T2 BPO is not all that amazing, but it's decent enough. At 2.5 years value it isn't even close to worth it... too great a chance the BPO will be turned into a BPC in that time. 2.5 years is a long time. thats not how it used to be though before invention killed the T2 market.... they used to be alot more profitable... the thing that kinda burns me is that ccp ignores the people who spent 4 years building up their t2 bpo library.... and now its next to useless....
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.28 08:04:00 - [17] Originally by: heyzeus435 thats not how it used to be though before invention killed the T2 market.... they used to be alot more profitable... But the point is people are knowingly paying these prices TODAY. It's just stupidity. I stick by my statement that T2 BPOs are like rockstars. People pay a price based on some unrealistic dream rather than the economic reality. The reality is that a lot of T2 BPOs are just as likely to depreciate in value faster than you can make a profit from producing them.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.28 08:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Benvie Originally by: heyzeus435 thats not how it used to be though before invention killed the T2 market.... they used to be alot more profitable... But the point is people are knowingly paying these prices TODAY. It's just stupidity. I stick by my statement that T2 BPOs are like rockstars. People pay a price based on some unrealistic dream rather than the economic reality. The reality is that a lot of T2 BPOs are just as likely to depreciate in value faster than you can make a profit from producing them. This is right on the money. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Sofitia Mourtos GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 09:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Shadarle That said, T2 BPO's are in a horrible state right now. People are trying to put them up for sale at 8-10+ billion when they actually lose you money to produce with em. The harpy bpo on contracts right now for 10b for example. If you produced harpy's at Jita prices you'd lose money and be in the hole 10b on the BPO. I think it is an excellent example of the fact that you cant just use 1year of potential profit on a tech2 bpo in order to evaluate the value of such bpo. With the harpy example they seller should infact be giving people money to take it - clearly the bpo holds some value, hence there are other conserns when pricesetting a tech2 bpo. That may be the "rockstar thing", or the fact that your supply lines are insured/independent, or maybe you expect ccp to change something in a patch - a lot more than just the 1year profit = price come into play in determining the value a bpo (now if it gives financial sense is another matter) ---------------------------------------- WTB: Guardian BPO
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.28 09:09:00 - [20] As I said in my earlier post, I think T2 BPOs can have bigger value for people in those wild regions with no law. They could be buying them solely for supplying their alliance, not for profit. Then the BPO has value of saved time/effort/risk with importing stuff from empire, or inventing it. However since I am not in 0.0, I wouldn't buy it at that price either. I am willing to pay slightly over 1 year profit at Jita, but not 2x-3x more. That Mega Pulse would be good if it was in 10B range...
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.01.28 11:31:00 - [21] T2 BPO values are becoming less and less connected to profitability because there is too much free ISK in circulation and nothing to spend it on. I've just spent 40b on a second Sacrilege BPO, which I know is about 2.5 years profit. Why? Because I have a growing ISK mountain that I just can't find a home for. And scouring this forum for respectable 5%+ investment opportunities gets boring after a while. See my other recent post - CCP need to deliver some new high-end content to soak up some ISK from long term industrialists like me. Until they do, I suspect ROI on high-end investments will get lower still. People have to put their money somewhere, and CCP aren't delivering right now. Leo PS - The same reasoning applies to the steadily declining returns on bonds offered through this forum. The going rate now seems to be 5% unsecured on a bond by someone seemingly trustworthy. That's awfully low for an unsecured investment, and tbh makes my Sacrilege purchase seem a fairly decent investment imho.
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:26:00 - [22] Originally by: heyzeus435 the thing that kinda burns me is that ccp ignores the people who spent 4 years building up their t2 bpo library.... and now its next to useless.... They didn't ignore you. You tried to use it for a money printing machine and got *****-slapped for it.
Lady Beauvoir Slutty Witches	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:30:00 - [23] Edited by: Lady Beauvoir on 28/01/2008 13:29:55 Well, I do agree that people seem to be paying insane amounts of ISK for the T2 BPOs at the moment. On the other hand, I do believe that it's not a bad idea to diversify one's investments to include some T2 production (even though it might not be the most optimal investment) just to be able to withstand market fluctuations. And in many cases, it's one of the most easy passive ISK sources, so some people might be paying for convenience as well. I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas around here. I have some modest T2 BPOs I produce from, I'm just posting some of my own reasons for owning them. "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaet point." -Blaise Pascal, PensTes, 4, 277
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:26:00 - [24] shiney kit syndrone. People think T2 BPO's will ALWAYS have value. 2.5 years payback in a game is nuts, here's why. What if CCP: 1. comes out with T3 2. nerf's your BPO or what it produces 3. Turns you BPO into a limited BPC 2.5 years payback assumes NOTHING changes, and that isn't usually the case
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:46:00 - [25] T2 bpo's are the inverse Bottle Imp. The newer owners are going to simply get stuck with them at prices they can't offload them for... at all.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:16:00 - [26] If anything I think a 1 year cost of a t2 bpo is too high currently. Nearly every T2 BPO is decreasing in value slowly (or quickly in a few cases). The longer your projections go the larger the chance of a loss. The only thing that could turn around T2 is T3 requiring T2 items. That might help. Just as the only boost for carrier profit at this point is T2 carriers requiring T1's. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:16:00 - [27] Edited by: Leowen on 28/01/2008 17:26:02 Originally by: cosmoray shiney kit syndrone. People think T2 BPO's will ALWAYS have value. 2.5 years payback in a game is nuts, here's why. What if CCP: 1. comes out with T3 2. nerf's your BPO or what it produces 3. Turns you BPO into a limited BPC 2.5 years payback assumes NOTHING changes, and that isn't usually the case Agree with all 3 of your points, but as a typical BPO buyer that doesn't put me off. It's a calculated risk. The fact is if you're making 1b a day profit, where else is there to put all of the cash you're generating? Right now - nowhere. So the choice is - let the cash mountain grow and fester. Scan this forum every day to try to find opportunities to put it with other people (and even the most trustworthy are liable to RL dilemmas so your money is never safe there unless 100% secured). Or buy something expensive that is likely to give you a somewhat profitable return long term. The issue is - and I'm boring myself now with this line - there is just waaaay too much free ISK in circulation. And with a 100b and growing cash pile, what else can you do? Buy cap ship BPO's? Ahem!! Leo
Altalicious	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:28:00 - [28] Yes, I bought that T2 1MN AB BPO. No, I did not pay 8 Billion for it. So you can stick that where the sun does not shine. For those of you that think along the lines of having to make a profit off the bpo within a certain amount of time, I say "Nuts," to your funny notion of profitability. I purchased this bpo, not to make a certain amount of ISK/year but by giving me the ability to produce a high demand item for a rather finite cost. I don't have to worry about inventing this item any more. I don't care if it takes 1 year or 5 years to make money off this BPO. The whole point of getting it was to bolster my T2 production position. Whoever said that there is too much ISK out there is right. If you do not have a capital fleet, nor want one, then what will you spend your money on? I abandoned Capital ship production because, for the amount of labor involved, there just wasn't enough profitability. For me T2 production was a smarter choice. So I have pursued purchasing T2 bpos and will see where it takes me. Plus if I ever get tired of making T2 items, I can sell the bpos that I have accumulated and sit on a big pile of cash. And if CCP shuts the servers off tomorrow, all our economic sparring would come to an end. Those BPOs would become nothing but memories. So what are they really worth?
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:35:00 - [29] You have to have a pretty weak understanding of the T2 components market to price production based on Jita prices.
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 21:02:00 - [30] Originally by: Altalicious The whole point of getting it was to bolster my T2 production position. Would just like -- nay, enjoy immensely -- to point out that you just posted a 4-paragraph circular argument that reduces down to 'because'.

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