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Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:00:00 - [61] Originally by: Lucille Austero Edited by: Lucille Austero on 29/01/2008 14:49:17 Originally by: Shadarle I'm sure you know that invention slots are different than manufacturing slots. I'm sure you know that the most runs you can get from an invented bpc is 19, and that would involve using a decryptor that decreases your chance of success. I'm assuming that the average inventor will be getting prints with 10 or 11 runs. That being so, it would take 9 manufacturing slots to get 99 modules from invention vs one manufacturing slot to get 100 mods from a bpo. Additionally with the negative PE of invented BPCs the 99 runs would take significantly longer to produce than the 100 from the BPO. Time=Money. I understand your argument that you can build more from invention than from a BPO, but that requires using your extra manufacturing slots, which could be used for something else, like manufacturing T2 components. I've personally never come even close to running out of manufacturing slots... but that's just me. But you're complaining about using up slots... but you're ignoring using up billions of ISK to buy the BPO. One way you have sunk billions of isk into something and have no easy way out, the other you can just switch to inventing another item and you've got 0 sunk costs. For the billions it cost to buy the BPO you could put up an entire large POS dedicated to manufacturing and inventing and produce many times more products and still have a ton of left over ISK to do other things with. A T2 BPO is no better than any other investment. The only thing that matters is RoR. If a T2 BPO yields 3% and another investment yields 5% you go with 5%. Heck, even if they are both 5% I'd shy away from a T2 BPO as they are going down in value a lot. Sure, they are selling at 2-2.5 years profit now but that number is still lower than 1 years profit was a year ago. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:09:00 - [62] Originally by: Shadarle A T2 BPO is no better than any other investment. The only thing that matters is RoR. If a T2 BPO yields 3% and another investment yields 5% you go with 5%. Heck, even if they are both 5% I'd shy away from a T2 BPO as they are going down in value a lot. Sure, they are selling at 2-2.5 years profit now but that number is still lower than 1 years profit was a year ago. Id also like to add that your are at the whim of market manipulators for the raw materials when doing T2 production VS T1 production. Which can cause your margin to be a lot more chaotic. --
Lucille Austero	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:25:00 - [63] Originally by: Shadarle I've personally never come even close to running out of manufacturing slots... but that's just me. But you're complaining about using up slots... but you're ignoring using up billions of ISK to buy the BPO. One way you have sunk billions of isk into something and have no easy way out, the other you can just switch to inventing another item and you've got 0 sunk costs. For the billions it cost to buy the BPO you could put up an entire large POS dedicated to manufacturing and inventing and produce many times more products and still have a ton of left over ISK to do other things with. A T2 BPO is no better than any other investment. The only thing that matters is RoR. If a T2 BPO yields 3% and another investment yields 5% you go with 5%. Heck, even if they are both 5% I'd shy away from a T2 BPO as they are going down in value a lot. Sure, they are selling at 2-2.5 years profit now but that number is still lower than 1 years profit was a year ago. By this argument, why bother investing a billion or more on a Raven BPO when you can buy BPCs? You're missing what gives a BPO value. It's not simply an issue of RoR.
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:31:00 - [64] Originally by: Treelox Originally by: Shadarle A T2 BPO is no better than any other investment. The only thing that matters is RoR. If a T2 BPO yields 3% and another investment yields 5% you go with 5%. Heck, even if they are both 5% I'd shy away from a T2 BPO as they are going down in value a lot. Sure, they are selling at 2-2.5 years profit now but that number is still lower than 1 years profit was a year ago. Id also like to add that your are at the whim of market manipulators for the raw materials when doing T2 production VS T1 production. Which can cause your margin to be a lot more chaotic. Depends how far back you do the chain -- I thought it was interesting to see a T2 BPO auction note that it was including component BPOs. Hopefully we all know where complex reactions come from... :) Please post constructively. ~Saint
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Lucille Austero Originally by: Shadarle I've personally never come even close to running out of manufacturing slots... but that's just me. But you're complaining about using up slots... but you're ignoring using up billions of ISK to buy the BPO. One way you have sunk billions of isk into something and have no easy way out, the other you can just switch to inventing another item and you've got 0 sunk costs. For the billions it cost to buy the BPO you could put up an entire large POS dedicated to manufacturing and inventing and produce many times more products and still have a ton of left over ISK to do other things with. A T2 BPO is no better than any other investment. The only thing that matters is RoR. If a T2 BPO yields 3% and another investment yields 5% you go with 5%. Heck, even if they are both 5% I'd shy away from a T2 BPO as they are going down in value a lot. Sure, they are selling at 2-2.5 years profit now but that number is still lower than 1 years profit was a year ago. By this argument, why bother investing a billion or more on a Raven BPO when you can buy BPCs? You're missing what gives a BPO value. It's not simply an issue of RoR. I am interested to know what you mean by giving a BPO value. example. 1. Purchase Raven BPO at approx 900M ISk. Build or make BPC's and that returns around 8-10% (not including research time), so probably more like 3-5% in first year. Sell BPO after 1 yr - not much profit 2. Purchase researched Raven BPC's and make 5% return. Then use other capital for other projects trading. What is the better investment? Lucille what are you trying to say? Whats your definition of value? T2 BPO's can't keep selling for such high prices with potential nerf's and game changes. With the low return on investment what is the HIDDEN VALUE I am missing? 5 billion invested in T2 BPO at 3-5%, can not be as good as 5 billion invested diversely that makes a higher return!
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:43:00 - [66] Originally by: Lucille Austero By this argument, why bother investing a billion or more on a Raven BPO when you can buy BPCs? You just made his point. Why buy a Raven BPO indeed? It's not a very good investment.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.01.29 21:43:00 - [67] Originally by: Benvie Originally by: Lucille Austero By this argument, why bother investing a billion or more on a Raven BPO when you can buy BPCs? You just made his point. Why buy a Raven BPO indeed? It's not a very good investment. Indeed, it's not. There's only one thing an expensive BPO does though. It means to enter manufacturing you need to outlay a lot more capital. Why is that important? There'll be less competition from other indy's with less capital. In other words, you pay isk to buy into a market in a sense. Obviously there's a lot more people with (the capacity, at least) to manufacture kestrels rather than ravens since it's a cheap BPO. I wouldn't get into Kestrel manufacturing because the per-minute return is only about 900-1100 isk from what I can tell though. Point being the high price of T2 BPOs was largely due to the fact it was an almost-exclusive market (and it was in some cases) which allowed manufacturers to greatly inflate prices. Now, with invention, that market is no longer as exclusive, so what the case is now is that you enter an approx 2500 isk per minute market for a massive comparative cost, whereas there's equally-profitable markets available for far less initial capital. To sum up, I guess what I'm saying is the isk you throw into that BPO is essentially you paying for less competition (though this isn't always the case!). For T2 BPOs pre-invention, the competition was almost non-existant. Now, it's incredibly competitive, and hardly justifies the cost of the T2 BPO. To paint the picture a little more clearly for you, to take the 1MN T2 BPO into question, several billion was paid for that. What that exact figure is hardly matters, because for a mere 50 million I can buy up, for my own business example, 11 T2 component BPO's and make 11 times what that 1MN T2 BPO will return per day. Improve Market Competition!
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:02:00 - [68] Originally by: Benvie Originally by: Lucille Austero You just made his point. Why buy a Raven BPO indeed? It's not a very good investment. ? I get 200mil+ weekly income from mine, by far my best income producer from a working set of 25 prints that include t1 and t2. I'm considering buying a 2nd print because demand has recently sustained beyond my ability to keep up. A researched Raven bpo routinely sells for 25% over npc cost, so the time spent researching it and tying up the capital isn't too bad. About the only drawback is that it takes about 4bil total capital (including mineral stocks) to drive it properly, but a 23% return monthly on that capital is respectable.
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:06:00 - [69] You forgot the part where we're in Market Discussions, where if someone says it's a bad idea or unprofitable, it's either quite lucrative or a bad idea. Please post constructively. ~Saint
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:34:00 - [70] And where are you selling these Ravens?
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:35:00 - [71] That's irrelevant as long as he doesn't personally have to haul minerals or Ravens. Please post constructively. ~Saint
Klavayne Free Mercenaries Union	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:58:00 - [72] Somehow, his alliance ticker tells me he's not a jita dock-warrior. I'd have thought the captive market of a large pvp alliance which fights hard would make it obvious where he sells them. I could be totally wrong though.
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.29 23:14:00 - [73] It's relevent because most traders don't have access to Tri stations. In fact most traders don't have access to any 0.0 stations. My point is valid for most people. Just because you've identified a specific market where something works doesn't mean my statement was wrong.
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:30:00 - [74] Originally by: Benvie It's relevent because most traders don't have access to Tri stations. In fact most traders don't have access to any 0.0 stations. My point is valid for most people. Just because you've identified a specific market where something works doesn't mean my statement was wrong. Ah I see your angle now. It's an empire prostitute parked in .9. And no, I don't haul ravens or minerals. I wake up and spend about 15 minutes updating my mineral index, mineral buy orders, factory jobs and sell orders. Tri's 0.0 bs market is handled by renters. Mineral supply issues alone guarantee I'd never try to carve a niche out here.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:30:00 - [75] Originally by: Benvie And where are you selling these Ravens? I already showed with a very detailed post in a past thread how his "advice" about Raven BPO's is hogwash for basically every trader other than himself. He personally can do well because he's in 0.0 and in a situation many people aren't in. For any normal person in empire a Raven BPO is fairly craptastic for production value these days unless you've found the perfect station to sell them in. But honestly I'd be surprised if anyone could prove they are turning 10% a month off a raven bpo by manufacturing in empire. Interestingly enough there is a new T2 BPO on contracts now. 12.5bil for a Retribution BPO. The funny part is that it yields 750 mil per year profit. So it would take a mere 16.67 years to break even. This means 0.5% monthly profit! Woot! I'm sorry, there is absolutely no way to justify that, even if you are an alliance and you fly Retributions. If you instead invested in a 5% monthly return investment you would be getting 625 mil a month. Compared to the 62 mil worth of profit per month from the Retribution BPO. Thus you could get 87 "free" retributions from making a real investment and simply buying the retributions off the market. Now if you invested at 10% you'd get closer to 190 retributions for "free". That is more Retributions than you can build in an entire month in a POS with the T2 BPO. Basically, anyone who buys this thing is a complete fool. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:02:00 - [76] Originally by: Shadarle He personally can do well because he's in 0.0 and in a situation many people aren't in. For any normal person in empire a Raven BPO is fairly craptastic for production value these days unless you've found the perfect station to sell them in. But honestly I'd be surprised if anyone could prove they are turning 10% a month off a raven bpo by manufacturing in empire. What? Scroll up. Reading comprehension is essential. Empire dude, just a stupid .9 station. Current cost of production is 77.80mil, and average sell price for the last month was 86.27mil. My calculator says average markup is 10.9% (if by 10% you refer to markup as opposed to profit as a % of capital needed, which is much higher), and regardless the markup in this case is less important than the turnover. I get double that markup from geddons, but less than 1/4 the volume so it performs less well with respect to income and return on capital. So basically your detailed post fails.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:26:00 - [77] Originally by: Danari Originally by: Shadarle He personally can do well because he's in 0.0 and in a situation many people aren't in. For any normal person in empire a Raven BPO is fairly craptastic for production value these days unless you've found the perfect station to sell them in. But honestly I'd be surprised if anyone could prove they are turning 10% a month off a raven bpo by manufacturing in empire. What? Scroll up. Reading comprehension is essential. Empire dude, just a stupid .9 station. Current cost of production is 77.80mil, and average sell price for the last month was 86.27mil. My calculator says average markup is 10.9% (if by 10% you refer to markup as opposed to profit as a % of capital needed, which is much higher), and regardless the markup in this case is less important than the turnover. I get double that markup from geddons, but less than 1/4 the volume so it performs less well with respect to income and return on capital. So basically your detailed post fails. if you bought the minerals for 78 million thats great if you sold the ship for 86 million thats great if you could sell the minerals for 84 million thats not so good Trashed sig, Shark was here
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:32:00 - [78] Originally by: SiJira if you bought the minerals for 78 million thats great if you sold the ship for 86 million thats great if you could sell the minerals for 84 million thats not so good I've been planning on testing selling surplus minerals but I run into some barriers: The sell / buy margin sits under 3% -- not attractive at all considering broker fees -- where I can get 10-1900% in production, so it never makes sense to sell minerals if I can mark them up by waiting for them to come out of a factory slot. Recall that production is a time-shifted markup of mineral value. Selling minerals directly is also a time-shifted markup, where you wait for someone to buy them at your listed price. It might make sense to sell surplus minerals but so far I've responded to catching up to mineral reserve needs by buying additional high-income bpos. At some point I'll actually have surplus minerals and I'll be able to assess their income potential. Just because you can 'instantly' post minerals at a 3% markup doesn't tell you what their income potential is since the turnover rate is difficult to assess without empirical tests.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:50:00 - [79] Originally by: Danari The sell / buy margin sits under 3% -- not attractive at all considering broker fees -- where I can get 10-1900% in production, so it never makes sense to sell minerals if I can mark them up by waiting for them to come out of a factory slot. Recall that production is a time-shifted markup of mineral value. Selling minerals directly is also a time-shifted markup, where you wait for someone to buy them at your listed price. It might make sense to sell surplus minerals but so far I've responded to catching up to mineral reserve needs by buying additional high-income bpos. At some point I'll actually have surplus minerals and I'll be able to assess their income potential. Just because you can 'instantly' post minerals at a 3% markup doesn't tell you what their income potential is since the turnover rate is difficult to assess without empirical tests. Thank you for that post. It pretty much confirms my point that the Raven BPO you have is not yielding the profits you think it is. If you remember, I made a VERY detailed post explaining how the numbers you gave in another thread simply do not add up. I calculated them in many different ways and they were not even remotely possible. The only way they could have worked was if you were in 0.0, but you say you aren't. No we can all see why you think you're making a 10% profit on Ravens. You are the reason Raven BPO's are not worth buying, you don't know how to calculate production costs and you don't know how to calculate trading costs. You're part of the "I got my minerals for free or a reduced rate so I can charge less and still make my margins" crowd. SiJira's numbers were right on the mark to, 84 mil is what the minerals would have sold for without the Raven being built, or at least close to that. So building the Raven netted you 2 mil or so. So about 2.3% profit per ship. Very impressive! You claim that minerals take a long time to sell but you totally ignore the fact that manufactured items not only take time to sell but they take time to build as well. You claim there is a 3% margin on minerals, which is completely untrue. The difference in 78 mil (your claimed build cost) and 84 mil (the real build cost) is 6 mil, which is over a 7.5% markup due entirely to the margin on minerals. Finally, you claim you will keep buying BPO's to build more things with, rather than sell the minerals directly. This means you're sinking billions of ISK in BPO's which you then have to consider part of your equation for determining your profit. Selling the minerals directly you'd have no overhead and could earn higher percentage profits more easily. The money could instead be spent on other investments that truly did return high profits in addition to the mineral profits. To sum up, every aspect of your current business strategy is flawed in regards to Raven production. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:17:00 - [80] I'll type this slowly so that you can keep up. I paid 77mil for the minerals. I could sell them for 80mil. How fast? To repeat myself, no idea tbh. But given how it takes absolutely no capitalization to do this, every macro miner would have macro buy and macro sell programs running to drive this profit to zilch if there were real isk in it. I could sell them for 85mil if I wait a day to cook them. How fast? At a rate of cost + 260mil per week. Just for ravens. I paid a bil for the ability to wait a day to sell 77mil of minerals for 85 instead of 80. The bil is reimbursable. I don't operate in the time sink called Jita. Get this through your neandertalensis skull. 15 minutes a day, 500mil a week income. I spend more time deconstructing your bull**** than driving my empire prostitute. To listen to you, the entire production program of Eve is a waste of effort. Uh huh. I've never typed at 3wpm before, I hope you appreciate the effort.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:52:00 - [81] Guess I touched a nerve Your entire premise is faulty due to your own statement: Quote: I could sell them for 80mil. How fast? To repeat myself, no idea tbh. You come out and state you have no clue what you're talking about. I, on the other hand, used to do things your way as well. I produced 10 different T1 ships. I also used to make your level of profit. I now make more daily than you make weekly. I spend less than 15 minutes twice daily updating orders currently. So while you speak as someone who has only ever done it your way, I speak as someone who has done things both ways and know which is more efficient. You can choose to ignore my advice, it is your loss. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

CCP Mitnal	Posted - 2008.02.02 21:31:00 - [82] Please remember to post respectfully of one another, suggesting people are idiots or querying their ability to read is not respectful. Mitnal, Community Representative EVE Online CCP Games Email/Netfang

cosmoray	Posted - 2008.02.02 22:47:00 - [83] Originally by: Danari Edited by: Danari on 02/02/2008 18:31:20 I'll type this slowly so that you can keep up. I paid 77mil for the minerals. No appreciable time was involved as may be the case of miners who get them for free after countless hours. I could sell them for 80mil. How fast? To repeat myself, no idea tbh. But given how it takes absolutely no capitalization to do this, every macro miner would have macro buy and macro sell programs running to drive this profit to zilch if there were real isk in it. I could sell them for 85mil if I wait a day to cook them. How fast? At a rate of cost + 260mil per week. Just for ravens. I paid a bil for the ability to wait a day to sell 77mil of minerals for 85 instead of 80. The bil is reimbursable. I don't operate in the time sink called Jita. Get this through your neandertalensis skull. 15 minutes a day, 500mil a week income. I spend more time deconstructing your bull**** than driving my empire prostitute. To listen to you, the entire production program of Eve is a waste of effort. Uh huh. I've never typed at 3wpm before, I hope you appreciate the effort. Edit: It is you who have no idea of the concept of cost. You keep focusing on 'what you coulda sold it for' and calling that cost. In RL I was a small business consultant for many years, and never did I see a summary balance that referred to what something coulda sold for under COG (cost of goods). If Paul Baker Printing in Roseville California buys ink at $4800/ton, it goes in as $4800/ton, not the $5400 they might get it if they were a retail ink store rather than offset printers. Do retail ink sellers make more than offset printers? Who gives a pile of Shadarle excrement? What generates more income, apples or oranges? This very interesting. Your business examples of Raven production and the printing ink business are classic types of case studies from most MBA programs in the USA and probably all over the world. FACT: Your OVERALL profit maybe 10% on each production run FACT: Your production profit from each run is much less if you could sell the minerals at a profit The real point here is that you are segmenting your business, and each unit is making a different level of profit. If your mineral reselling makes 7% and your production makes 3% why invest so much capital in the production side with such a small return. You would be better re-selling minerals and using the capital (900 mill+ for Raven BPO) to invest in other things. Same in RL for the printing company. If the company can make a large return re-selling ink, they can reinvest the capital in new higher returning projects. An example of this is from the 1980's when some energy intensive using manufacturing companies in California had a contract to sell their electricity back to the generators at a fixed price. When the cost of the electricity dropped beneath the re-sale value most of the companies stopped manufacturing anything as they made a higher return reselling the electricity back to the suppliers.
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.03 02:06:00 - [84] Originally by: cosmoray If your mineral reselling makes 7% and your production makes 3% why invest so much capital in the production side with such a small return. You would be better re-selling minerals and using the capital (900 mill+ for Raven BPO) to invest in other things. Tying up a bil for an extra 300mil a month income is reason enough.
Khatred ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs	Posted - 2008.02.03 02:29:00 - [85] Edited by: Khatred on 03/02/2008 02:29:54 What's with all this e-peen stroking, economist wannabe talk? Unless somebody is into isk selling or the ROI of dunno what and the% of dunno who it's massively important to make 180 mil for your next GTC, who cares what is exactly and precisely the most lucrative and most isk per second online thing to do in Eve. It's a game. With a game economy that lacks the most important pillars of a real life economy. What a joke. Freacking spelling.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.03 02:36:00 - [86] Edited by: Shadarle on 03/02/2008 02:38:03 Originally by: Danari Originally by: cosmoray If your mineral reselling makes 7% and your production makes 3% why invest so much capital in the production side with such a small return. You would be better re-selling minerals and using the capital (900 mill+ for Raven BPO) to invest in other things. Tying up a bil for an extra 300mil a month income is reason enough. Except you're pulling numbers out of thin air. I could just as easily say "Tying up a bil and losing 300 mil a mon is reason enough not to". Through the math you would have to make 150 ravens per month (nearly 100% production) to make 300 mil producing Ravens under optimal conditions. Perhaps you do make 150 ravens/month, though from your own numbers you've given previously it seems the number is far below that. EDIT> I believe it is actually closer to 1.5 mil profit (when selling ravens at 86) so it's closer to 200 raven's/month. This is compared to selling the minerals directly of course, which you seem to have no clue about since you've never done it... yet you also somehow know it is less profitable. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.03 03:50:00 - [87] Quote: Tying up a bil for an extra 300mil a month income is reason enough. Except, as I've pointed out numerous times in my own business, you can tie up 45 mil for an extra 400 mil a month. Improve Market Competition!
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.03 03:53:00 - [88] Quote: It's a game. Yeah, it's a game. So why don't you fit cargohold expanders on your PvP fit? Simple. Because you'll lose if you do. Why do traders and industrialists seek the best ROI? Because if you don't, you'll lose. Improve Market Competition!
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.02.03 03:55:00 - [89] Originally by: cosmoray This very interesting. Your business examples of Raven production and the printing ink business are classic types of case studies from most MBA programs in the USA and probably all over the world. FACT: Your OVERALL profit maybe 10% on each production run FACT: Your production profit from each run is much less if you could sell the minerals at a profit The real point here is that you are segmenting your business, and each unit is making a different level of profit. If your mineral reselling makes 7% and your production makes 3% why invest so much capital in the production side with such a small return. You would be better re-selling minerals and using the capital (900 mill+ for Raven BPO) to invest in other things. Same in RL for the printing company. If the company can make a large return re-selling ink, they can reinvest the capital in new higher returning projects. An example of this is from the 1980's when some energy intensive using manufacturing companies in California had a contract to sell their electricity back to the generators at a fixed price. When the cost of the electricity dropped beneath the re-sale value most of the companies stopped manufacturing anything as they made a higher return reselling the electricity back to the suppliers. Two things. First, using Danari's figures, Danari claims he gets around $160 million per week from turning those minerals into Ravens rather than selling the minerals directly. Second, $260 million divided by 8 is a bit over 30 ravens a week, which adds up to more than 120 a month. Sounds doable and means the BPO is probably almost always in the factory. Even if we use your guess that only 30% of his profit is due to the BPO and the effort of manufacture, that's still a bit shy of 80 mil isk a week or $300 million as Danari points out. Frankly, I'm on Danari's side. Maybe the numbers are wrong, but if they aren't, then Danari has a compelling case. A second thing, the more recent California energy crisis is a better example. For a time, west cost manufacturers from British Columbia all the way down to Mexico had incentive to resell their power (obtained through old fixed rate contracts) rather than continue to run the plant. I know virtually all aluminum smelting (which takes a lot of electricity) stopped in the Northwest US for a couple of months. And I know of a copper mine in New Mexico that not only shutdown to resell their electricity, but it started running its emergency backup generators in order to sell that power as well.
Mollie Black Caldari Orion Faction	Posted - 2008.02.03 08:27:00 - [90] Originally by: Shadarle But honestly I'd be surprised if anyone could prove they are turning 10% a month off a raven bpo by manufacturing in empire. Let's assume a 1.5 million profit per ship and building 4 ships a day. (both very conservative) That would mean a profit of 6 million per day or 180 million per month. Assuming a 1 Billion BPO and 350 million in minerals to build the initial 4 ships in investment cost, that would be a 13.3% return per month. That is more then 10% a month and very doable in high sec Empire space. I think I have the math correct, but if I don't please point out my error.

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