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a51 duke1406
Order Of The Sentinel
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Posted - 2008.01.29 07:43:00 -
[1]
So ECM is being used a lot now in pvp. This in my opinion is due to two factors, the sendor damp nerf and the ecm boost. I think in just about every enagement I have had in the last month there has been at least one dedicated ecm ship.
It has personally led to alot of near kills for me ie guy gets to structure, his corpie warps in and perma jams me. I generally fly a hyperion, with an eccm in it. This gives me a sensor strenght of about 44. But yet I still find my self jammed on average 50 out of 60 seconds. I don't really think that we need another discussion on probability of jamming etc. And there has already been a tread on eccm.
My personal thoughts on ecm, It is very very effective. It will take one ship out of a fight easily, and I think it should be able to, as long as it is on a dedicated ew ship, its what they are meant to do after all. My problem is when a dedicated ecm ship jams 2-3 ships for a huge amount of time in any engagement. I think this does not do anything for balance in a the game. Every gang, including my own I might add, now has at least 1 ecm ship with it. Its become an absolute at this stage.
What I would like to see in this tread is if people think this should be changed in anyway and possible ways to change it.
My own possible solution to this, is add stacking penalties to ecm mods. This will I think allow a dedicated ecm ship to take one, or if there is smaller ships in an engagement out of the fight, but prevent it from effectivly shutting down 2-3 battleships.
What do people think?
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Raxxius Maelstrom
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Posted - 2008.01.29 08:11:00 -
[2]
Personally I think ECM should only break locks and not also prevent relock. It is far too effective compared to the other forms of Ewar. And I agree that every squad really needs a jammership to stand a chance if the other team has one.
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Luna Nilaya
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 09:58:00 -
[3]
Originally by: a51 duke1406 Every gang, including my own I might add, now has at least 1 ecm ship with it. Its become an absolute at this stage.
Just like you need huginn/rapier to counter speed tanked ships. Some of you people seem to think that PVP should be just about tank and DPS. ECM ships can't really tank at all so if one ECM ship could jamm only one hostile ship, I wouldn't bother using my ECM ships anymore. -
Installing premium content... Deleting file: \boot.ini |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.01.29 10:48:00 -
[4]
ECM and ECCM is fine. ECM only really works on ECM ships and fitting just one ECCM greatly improves your chances to withstand an ECM attack. People usually don't, so they think ECM is to strong. Well, if you don't fit a tank, guns will rip you apart in seconds, but that doesn't make them to powerful.
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Devian 666
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 10:49:00 -
[5]
ECM is a part of the paper scissors rock nature of pvp in eve. It means that people have to adapt to their opponents.
ECM is used more because RSDs were nerfed. No. RSDs were overnerfed tipping the balance entirely towards ECM. The same thing happend to ECM when it was originally nerfed.
The RSD nerf should have been tempered and not such a significant hit then minor tweaking could have followed later. Instead it got slapped hard and put specialist ships like the lach/arazu at a disadvantage because their is no scan res reduction if you're running the range script. Given that you need to be a lot closer to use an RSD at optimal this is a problem (I'm talking relative to rook/falcon/scorp).
The RSD nerf took me from flying an arazu to training up my scorp skills. tl;dr version is they nerfed too hard.
You need to look at other counters for ECM before you consider ECM changes. Especially as ECM is basically where it should be.
Originally by: Darkrydar Oh and killboard loss arguments are so 2005.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.29 11:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Devian 666 Especially as ECM is basically where it should be.
Because having one ship shut down 4-5 BS from 240km away is where it 'should be'?
RSDs, even before the nerf, were never able to do this. ECCM isn't an effective defense against ECM. The *only* effective defense vs. ECM is your own ECM specifically designed to counterjam the enemy EW ships.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.29 12:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Devian 666 .. it got slapped hard and put specialist ships like the lach/arazu at a disadvantage ..
And NOS nerf helped Amarr recons? Get real, whiny boy'a!
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.01.29 12:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: Devian 666 .. it got slapped hard and put specialist ships like the lach/arazu at a disadvantage ..
And NOS nerf helped Amarr recons? Get real, whiny boy'a!
I don't think he said 'only damps were hit'...
If we look at all recon ships now, what remains? Lets make a list, because you'll see, close to everything has been hit.
* Amarr recons : Double hit in offensive and defensive ! - TD are nerfed, they are not half as good as it was promised in the scripting devblog, they are 30% of what they were before. - NOS nerf makes very hard to have an amarr recon capstable as before, you'll need tons of cap boosters, it makes it inneficient in any long fight... As the goal is to suppress the targeted ship's capacitor, you just can't NOS it.
* Gallente : main weapon nerf - Damps were nerfed, they are just as TD, efficient at 30% of what they were before. Now, it only works on very long range fights, at distances where the damps will randomly work properly being in falloff.
* Minmatar : same stats as before, but increased need in those ships - More and more nanogangs pushes people to fly those recons, the torpedo change may make the TP useful. I think now thay are at the level they should have been since the beginning.
* Caldari : Boosting something that was already working? - ECM is all or nothing, if you win the random strength vs sensors, the target can do nothing... - When in the optimal, it works at 100% and if properly fitted, you can jam anything. - All the ship bonuses go on ECM, wich differs from the philosophy of other recons.
To sum up, amarr recons are a joke, gallente recons are partially useful, minmatar recons are exactly what they should be and caldari recons are just the thing to have as the gallente recons are not as useful (range dependant, they are useless in close range fights).
So, what needs to be done?
1/ TD and damps : they need to have one scripted stat as good as the stats were before the nerf, it means choosing between one of the two abilities you had before. 2/ Some special bonus for the amarr recons to nosf something on lower cam than theirs, they are flying energy syphons, they are never full, so, they should have their cap considered by nosf as being at 25% or something around this, allowing to nosf ennemy ships and fill themselves until the target gets lower. Then, they have to burn their own cap to destroy the remaining cap. 3/ Reworking ECM maybe. Several ideas come to me : - When jammed, it is all or nothing : wrong behaviour! - Make the target loose maximum targets until he drops at 0 (actually, it drops him at 0 or does nothing), this will make the ECM less random and less 'all or nothing', you reduce more or less the maximum locked targets of a ship depending on the proportion of sensor strenght you nullified. - Make it an instant lock breaker. This a disadvantage against smaller fast locking ships, but good enough against larger ships. Make the cycle shorter, then it's more efficient. In this configuration, it has a weakness against smaller ships, just as damps and TD have weakness against closer ships. - Take the locked targets off and then give them back at the end of the cycle : as soon as you can lock, you get back your targets and can fight! - Lower slightly the actual ECM strenght, it is too high, it is too easy to totally disable several ships with a single recon which is totally impossible with others to achieve so much combat disrupting. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Conrad Rock
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.01.29 13:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes ECM and ECCM is fine. ECM only really works on ECM ships and fitting just one ECCM greatly improves your chances to withstand an ECM attack. People usually don't, so they think ECM is to strong. Well, if you don't fit a tank, guns will rip you apart in seconds, but that doesn't make them to powerful.
Basically this,
I used one med slot eccm and one low slot eccm and solo killed a falcon in my hurricane.
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Luna Nilaya
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 13:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
3/ Reworking ECM maybe. Several ideas come to me...
No. GTFO. -
Installing premium content... Deleting file: \boot.ini |
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.01.29 13:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Luna Nilaya
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
3/ Reworking ECM maybe. Several ideas come to me...
No. GTFO.
So pleasingly answered with so many constructive ideas, go fly your ECM ship and be happy, anyway, nothing happens before SOON(tm) so don't worry... -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.01.29 16:12:00 -
[12]
CCP decided the next flavour of the month should be caldari for once and not minnie or gallente.
People have stopped flying arazus and lachesis and hop into a falcon now. How this makes anything better or more balanced remains a mystery but i have trust in the *cough* balancing *cough* team. (no i really don't have actually i already have my falcon alt)
1 month and people start to complain. I already see falcons and bbs used much more then before. And while before an arazu would shut down 1-2 of us a falcon does it to 3-4 people especially if they are in bs.
Give it 6 months and the forum will be so full of whines that ccp can't stand it any longer. (they can only digest amarr tears which is why they can whine as long as they want)
Then the ecm boats get another nerf bat and anyone who has played this game for a while knows it won't be sensitive. Torp raven will then get a nerf bat too most likely and caldari lose everything the just gained.
And on a more technical note: eccm is bull****. I have seen falcons jam 3-4 bs (2 of them with eccm) and render them completely unable to fight.
And don't tell me they got lucky. I can fly a falcon myself and either i am the most lucky person in the history of the ******* universe or falcons(rooks/bbs/scorps...) are just imba. And given that i didn't win the lottery 6 times in a row i tend to think its the latter.
Now i will get flamed to hell etc. Don't get me wrong though. I am not exactly complaining. I will (ab-)use ecm platforms and especially the falcon as long and as much as possible. Just as i did with the lachesis/razu and the outcome will be exactly the same. That doesn't change the fact the latest changes to ewar were nuts though. But i have to adapt...
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Westen
Caldari Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.01.29 17:15:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Westen on 29/01/2008 17:16:16 I have been flying a falcon since they came out. I have no problem w/ a dedicated ship shutting down 3-4 ships, since I have trained nearly all the skills to 5 and invested a heavy ammount of time.
That said, here is my suggestion to balance the ships a little further. Maybe they should add a skill that will allow a pilot to raise his or her sensor strength by 10-20%. It may not seem like much at first but when added with the ECCM, the increase would make it a more viable alternative to ECM. Practically every other stat on a ship can be increased through training, why not sensor strength?
Gunnery skills reduce effect of TD Long Range Targeting and "name?" (the scan rez skill) Reduce effect of RSD Not much lessen Target Painters, but who cares No skills reduce ECM effectiveness directly
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deltauk1
UNITED KINGDOM MAYHEM Capital Storm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 17:25:00 -
[14]
Some interesting stuff on this thread. As far as i can see damps getting nerfed seems to be more of a problem than caldari EW ships. i fly a rook/ falcon and used to dread it when a hostile arazu was sighted. they were very good ships, especially for countering ecm boats. I agree totally that ccp messed up big time nerfing damps and have ruined a very effective ship/s. On the rook/falcon front i don't see any rpoblem tbh. To permajam 3 bs you need to be near maxed out which in turns means you've put a hell of a lot of skilltime in. Also they are by no means invincible, a properly fitted EW ship will have no tank and if it does have a tank it's ew threat is greatly reduced. the dps on them is hideous, they pretty much pop in seconds when hit by anything bigger than a cruiser and then you have cruise missles, hideous things for ew ships, they hurt lots, and then there are nano ships to deal with and of course other EW ships. As stated before they are part of the game and most people i fight say they are good force multipliers allowing smaller gangs to take on larger ones which is great fun. to sum up, yes it is terrible what has happened to gallente recons and all the people who have trained for them but please don't take it out on caldari recons and EW it's no easy ride flying one and i've lost some toexcellent tactics by the oppostion as well as geeting charged by nano ships. anyway that is my two-pence worth ont he matter
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The ArchWarder
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.29 17:59:00 -
[15]
Edited by: The ArchWarder on 29/01/2008 18:03:14 Edited by: The ArchWarder on 29/01/2008 18:02:21 ECM mods need to have a Jamming time of 10 seconds and a cycle time of 20 seconds.
Like Every other Ewar. ( the 10 second part )
20 seconds of uselessness is just far too much for one mod.
Eccm needs to make you immune to ECM period due to the the sacrifice of an all important mid slot for a mod that ONLY serves to keep you 'able to lock'.
Low slot ECCM needs to be buffed to the strength a mid slot ECCM is currently.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.01.29 18:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: deltauk1 Some interesting stuff on this thread. As far as i can see damps getting nerfed seems to be more of a problem than caldari EW ships.
Well amarr recons got hit twice with the nerfbat too so yes thats a problem. I for example fly 3/4 races recons and most of the recon pilots i know kinda specialize and fly at least 2. The ones that only learn 1 recon are all falcon pilots but thats probably coincidental. However if i feel my current recon doesn't give a whole lot to my gang but the falcon does why would i not fly it? A lot of people think that way and that we like to call fotm. And guess what comes after the fotm?
Originally by: deltauk1
On the rook/falcon front i don't see any rpoblem tbh. To permajam 3 bs you need to be near maxed out which in turns means you've put a hell of a lot of skilltime in.
Well those 3 bs pilots may have maxed skills either. And maxing a bs is far more skill intensive than maxing a recon tbh.
Of course to some extent this is needed for recons to work as "force multipliers". How good the multiplication works is a balance question though and very well not only depends on the ecm ships themselves but also on the state of the rest of pvp.
The game shouldn't degenerate into a simple point blank dmg/tank game. But you can't make balancing arguments based on how many sp people have invested imo because in that case its captial > bs > .... > recons. And thats just stupid.
Another thing to note is that the other recons can be quite happy if they shut only a single bs down half as effectively as a falcon would. They have supplemental abilities which the falcon lacks (they all are good tacklers, can sometimes kill or fend off cruiser sized ships, have another ewar bonus, etc.) though.
The way i see it you can play nice tricks with all the other recons but when it comes to winning otherwise doomed fights or saving lifes and keeping losses down its always the falcon, the falcon and then some more falcon.
The rapier/huginn has its own specific uses with the nano ships so its the only other recon thats really appealing atm.
Originally by: deltauk1
As stated before they are part of the game and most people i fight say they are good force multipliers allowing smaller gangs to take on larger ones which is great fun.
Agreed. How high the multipliers are for the different recons can and should be discussed though. And also how effective (or not) the counter measures are. I fly recons all the time and its fun but flying other ships should be fun too.
In small gang combat cruise missiles are the only weapon system that has enough range to shoot them directly. (assuming people fit close range mostly) One raven though will be jammed easily and its already making sacrifices in dps by fitting cruise missiles. Should one bring 3 or 4 cruise missile ravens to counter a falcon?
So in order to shoot a falcon most ships need to get near it first. Realistically only some cruiser sized ships can do this fast enough and then they have pretty much no chance of actually killing the falcon if the pilot has any awareness whatsoever.
They will only force it to warp out and come back in an instant. Its much better to have a falcon of your own and jam the other falcon.
In lowsec falcon has the further advantage that it is the only recon that can realistically use its ewar out of sentry range which pretty much means the small chance of countering it with recons other then the falcon itself further diminishes.
The only time where anyone i know lost a falcon was when they actively sacrificed it in order to keep jamming as long as possible and not warp out or switch jams although there is a huginn/curse sitting on top of them. Falcons rarely die and i can't take anyone serious who flies one but claims otherwise.
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Devian 666
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 19:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: Devian 666 .. it got slapped hard and put specialist ships like the lach/arazu at a disadvantage ..
And NOS nerf helped Amarr recons? Get real, whiny boy'a!
The discussion isn't about the most nerfed recons in the game it's about ecm and game balance.
Quit whining.
Originally by: Darkrydar Oh and killboard loss arguments are so 2005.
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Devian 666
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 19:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Devian 666 Especially as ECM is basically where it should be.
Because having one ship shut down 4-5 BS from 240km away is where it 'should be'?
RSDs, even before the nerf, were never able to do this. ECCM isn't an effective defense against ECM. The *only* effective defense vs. ECM is your own ECM specifically designed to counterjam the enemy EW ships.
If you're finding ecm so difficult you could try playing another game.
Originally by: Darkrydar Oh and killboard loss arguments are so 2005.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 19:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Devian 666 Especially as ECM is basically where it should be.
Because having one ship shut down 4-5 BS from 240km away is where it 'should be'?
Look at dat fuggin hyperbole.
A Falcon with perfect skills, rigs, faction ECM (do they even drop?) and a full rack of Signal Disruption Amplifier IIs gets a total jamming strength of just over 15. A Battleship has a sensor strength of between 17 and 22, so if this "Mr Perfect" Falcon pilot has the exact racial modules for the battleships he's facing, he will jam a single battleship 60-85% of the time depending on the shiptype. So on paper, yes, a perfect Falcon pilot with his midslots stuffed entirely with ECM modules of the exact type required and his lows entirely stuffed with the SDAs can be jamming about 5 of his 7 targetted BSs at any given instant (which isn't at all the same thing as locking down 4-5 ships permanently).
Quote: The *only* effective defense vs. ECM is your own ECM specifically designed to counterjam the enemy EW ships.
Countering ECM by trying to jam the opposing ECM ship yourself is a fool's game because recon ships have such crazy sensor strength.
However each time the ECM misses a cycle, the battleship is going to target and hammer his tinfoil armoured Recon severely. If the ECM pilot has the wrong racial ECMs fitted for the enemy shiptypes and can't get his jams off he's going to be worthless in a fight. If the enemy fleet rushes the Falcon with a handful of interceptors they force it to either take its ECM away from the enemy heavy hitters to jam the tacklers (which means the BSs can target the Falcon freely), or keep on the BSs while hoping desperately the tacklers dont have the DPS to drop him themselves, or that they're not providing a warpin for a shortrange gank boat which will melt the Falcon in seconds. If the enemy put a handful of targeting range dampeners on his ship from a celestis (or even better, lachesis/arazu) he wont be locking jack from 240km away, and will be forced to either get close in and put himself in far greater danger, or be nullified entirely and forced to warp out of the fight.
And, unlike Recons, you can insure a BS.
----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true. |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.01.29 19:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Countering ECM by trying to jam the opposing ECM ship yourself is a fool's game because recon ships have such crazy sensor strength.
A recon has about the sensor strength of a t1 bs. So how is this any crazy? Also if you manage to jam the falcon it can't make use of its own jams which obviously helps a big deal.
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
However each time the ECM misses a cycle, the battleship is going to target and hammer his tinfoil armoured Recon severely.
Because the falcon pilot managed to position himself in front of said battleship? Then he really deserves to die tbh.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 20:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Countering ECM by trying to jam the opposing ECM ship yourself is a fool's game because recon ships have such crazy sensor strength.
A recon has about the sensor strength of a t1 bs. So how is this any crazy? Also if you manage to jam the falcon it can't make use of its own jams which obviously helps a big deal.
Caldari Recons: Rook: 32 Sensor Strength Falcon: 28 Sensor Strength
Caldari Battleships: Scorpion: 24 Sensor Strength Raven: 22 Sensor Strength Rokh: 24 Sensor Strength.
The Caldari battleships, which have the highest Sensor Strengths of all races, are still significantly lower than that of the Falcon and especially the Rook.
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
However each time the ECM misses a cycle, the battleship is going to target and hammer his tinfoil armoured Recon severely.
Because the falcon pilot managed to position himself in front of said battleship? Then he really deserves to die tbh.
If a Recon's is jamming its target from within its ECM optimal, its within reach of pretty much any T2 sniper returning fire (certainly Caldari and Gallente, I'm not so familiar with Laser and artillery snipers) so I don't know how you propose to avoid this, exactly.
----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.29 22:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon If the enemy put a handful of targeting range dampeners on his ship from a celestis (or even better, lachesis/arazu) he wont be locking jack from 240km away, and will be forced to either get close in and put himself in far greater danger, or be nullified entirely and forced to warp out of the fight.
And what feat of magic give the lachesis/arazu something near a 240 km damper range?
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 22:53:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Venkul Mul And what feat of magic give the lachesis/arazu something near a 240 km damper range?
240km from the BSs the Falcon is trying to jam, not 240km from the damper ship. Do I need to draw a diagram or something here?
----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true. |
Waxau
The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.29 23:46:00 -
[24]
Not going to debate it as the good points have already been mentioned here and have been acknowledged by some, and totally ignored by others.
ECM is fine. Boost the pilgrim and gal recons. Simple.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.30 00:16:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Venkul Mul And what feat of magic give the lachesis/arazu something near a 240 km damper range?
240km from the BSs the Falcon is trying to jam, not 240km from the damper ship. Do I need to draw a diagram or something here?
So you want the target group to split, the arazu to fly 200 km and it is all right and kosher. Oh, and naturally the falcon will stay immobile, it is such a good guy.
Or maybe the falcon will stay at 149 km so the arazu can't jump to him (even if some cov ops has pinpointed him) and move around to keep the distance? Damps will still do nothing, and the ECM ship will work fine.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.30 00:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Venkul Mul So you want the target group to split, the arazu to fly 200 km and it is all right and kosher. Oh, and naturally the falcon will stay immobile, it is such a good guy.
Or maybe the falcon will stay at 149 km so the arazu can't jump to him (even if some cov ops has pinpointed him) and move around to keep the distance? Damps will still do nothing, and the ECM ship will work fine.
A ceptor (even if jammed) closing at 6km/s+ and then orbiting at 10km provides a handy warp in point, and its hard to keep the arazu at 149km when he's able to warp out to another celestial object and back in. You're relying on the Falcon pilot to maintain 240km distance from the target battleships whilst simultaneously keeping 100km away from the dampening ships, and constantly swapping his jammers between different battleships and between the battleships and tacklers as jams succeed or fail. Forcing information overload on the Falcon pilot and pushing him into errors of judgement as he juggles various shifting threat priorities is a perfectly viable way of taking down expensive threats such as this.
Or I guess you could just post in a whine thread instead.
----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true. |
DuPuy
Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2008.01.30 01:05:00 -
[27]
Edited by: DuPuy on 30/01/2008 01:11:45 I'm seeing a lot of ECM boats on killmails now. Three months ago, there were hardly any.
I'm seeing a lot of ECM boats on lossmails now. Three months ago, there were hardly any.
Why?
Because, three months ago, hardly anyone flew them.
Now they are helping kills. Now they are helping frustrate kills. Now they are getting popped.
Why?
They are being used.
Yes: the Damp nerf was over-the top. Yes: the Nos nerf was over-the top. Yes: the Tracking Disruptors are under-used (I don't know why given 75pc of all pvp ships use guns) Yes: Target Designators have only limited application.
I fly boats that use all of the above. The nerfs and boosts affect me equally. And I was someone who flew Falcons and Rooks when they weren't popular.
ECCM exists for a reason: to tank ECM.
Just as armor and shields exist for a reason: to tank guns and missiles.
Use them.
You won't hear ECM pilots whining about over-powered guns and missiles when their zero-tank ships get popped...
So what is causing this new rant against ECM?
In local, I am seeing a lot of fucussed-"i win" warp scrambling type pilots whining about ECM being used to prevent them getting their easy low-sec kills...
Well, that is because low-sec pilots have "adapted": they realise the only counter to this infinite scram device are ECM mods and ECM drones...
Fit some ECCM and you'll probably still get your "i-win" kills....
Adapt. Or die.
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Xavia Cameron
Caldari Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.30 01:24:00 -
[28]
I'd have to say, ECM is perfectly fine in its current (seemingly overpowered) state.
These ships are flying coffins if your FC doesn't know EXACTLY what he's doing. They NEED to be able to jamm 3-4 ships, or what is the point of flying one in a serious battle? TD, RSD, TP are all examples of skirmish EWar, ECMs however are fleet EWar. An ECM ship will get owned in a 10 v 10 because if one ship misses a cycle you die, no tank, no speed.
ECMs need to be more powerful then other races Ewar because ECM boats sacrifice all of their tank for it. Also, they need range being the Ewar of the long-range race.
TBH I'd prefer the Raven nerfed then ECM. Then the Caldari have an obvious place in combat... SUPPORT!
-- Fix Clone Vat Bays Fix Local
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.01.30 03:12:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
The Caldari battleships, which have the highest Sensor Strengths of all races, are still significantly lower than that of the Falcon and especially the Rook.
I said about. English is not my first language but i meant approximately. And falcon has +4 sensor strength against rokh which is only 20% more. If you think this makes trying to jam it crazy while jamming a bs with -20% sensor strength is ok then you probably try to skew the facts.
I have jammed recons and i have been jammed while sitting in recons. In my curse i've even been permajammed for over 2 minutes by a lone falcon with multispecs. And my bs with eccm have higher sensor strength then your rook or falcon and guess what? They still get jammed. Just not as often.
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
If a Recon's is jamming its target from within its ECM optimal, its within reach of pretty much any T2 sniper
My falcon has nearly 230km optimal on racials. And imo they just introduced new implants to further enhance that range.
Did you ever fly an ecm boat?
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
returning fire (certainly Caldari and Gallente, I'm not so familiar with Laser and artillery snipers) so I don't know how you propose to avoid this, exactly.
See there is fleet bs and there is small gang combat. I do the latter and people don't bring sniping bs there. So even if your point was true (which it isn't see above) it would be a moot point kinda.
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LordMordred
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.30 05:19:00 -
[30]
Edited by: LordMordred on 30/01/2008 05:19:19 To be 100% honest ECM needs to return to what it was in the beginning of the game.
Ships have a set sensor strenght. Jammers each jam for a set amount of points. If you put more point on a ship than it has sensor strengh, it is jammed. What was really unbalance about this was the ECM modules had no range at that time, this has been corrected.
This would solve two major problems as I see it: 1.) The ease of use involed with ECM 2.) The Random Chance Factor
Both of these reasons fall under the explation (for me anyways.) Pilot skill. Back before they changed ECM to a random chance (When 100 people in a system was an OMG moment almost) it was heavily based on your skill at using the modules.
Example one: A noob with old ECM
He throws all of his jammers on a BS and overwhelms his sensor strength, perma jamming him till he stops using the ECM for whatever reason.
Example Two: Experienced player with ECM
Does jamming Cycles. Multispec had a 5 second cycle time. Each time the cycle was up the ECM pilot would put all of his jammers on the another target. So on and so forth. This was called "Cycle Jamming." You would just break the locks of every one on your target list as often as possible.
Most importantly, it was all based on fixed values and not Random chance. This method of target jaming also means it can't be done by any ship that doesn't have a lot of mids to put towards jamming. Back in the day, those ships where the BB and the Scorp. Some Ravens could use it to effect but where better off with a Duel MWD or Shield Tank setup.
The only problem I see with this system in modern day EVE is the effects of LAG in the now Mega sized fleet battles that take place in EVE now fairly often. Module lag was always a killer for a Cycle Jamming ECM pilot.
Counters to Cycle Jamming: If you threw one or two ECCM modules in your meds or lows you most often wouldn't be jammed. A lot of ECM ships back then carried enough to jam one normal sensor strength Scorp (the highest Sensor Strength ship in the game back then.) This could really throw an ECM pilot for a loop, and provided a route for all other ships a module-based way of effectively countering ECM, at the plenty of module space (which is the way it should be.)
To sum it all up. No more random chance. It is based high on the pilotĘs skill to manage his modules in combat.
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