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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.03 04:43:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik TD is irrelevent to deimos
No it isnt. Do you know what falloff is? Do you know how blasters work?
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General StarScream
Borg Collective hive mind
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Posted - 2008.02.03 05:28:00 -
[242]
Boooo I skilled a year for gallante to be overpowerd. now i have to skill for Amarr ;( Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.03 05:34:00 -
[243]
Edited by: Ulstan on 03/02/2008 05:36:23 Zealot change, excellent.
Moa change, excellent.
Ferox change, excellent.
Eagle change, excellent.
Apoc change, super excelent.
Omen change, very good.
However
Both the raptor and the omen need more powergrid
Omen has trouble fitting 4 guns right now. Expecting it to adequately fit a 5th would be quite amazing.
I know you don't want the raptor to fit 150mm rails: trust me, that won't be happening. Max skills, the [b]current[\b] raptor has 37.5 power 3 125 tech II rails is 7.2 power each for 21.6 power at MAX SKILLS. Add on a tech ONE MWD for 15 power and you have 36.6 power.
The current raptor can't even squeeze on a full rack of 125 II's and a MWD II, even if it fits nothing else. 150's aren't even in the picture.
Lowering it's powergrid even further would be just 0.0
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.02.03 06:09:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Falloff on Tracking Disruptors is perhaps the largest single Minmatar nerf in EVE. Amarrian Pulses have almost no falloff, but Minmatar completely rely on staying out of range in falloff.
You do realize that pulses have high optimal and that tds used to be most effective against them since ages? How is it fair that tds only worked against amarr? You didn't complain back then did you?
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
A single TD will cut their DPS by approximately 40-70% (depending on large or medium ACs). The solution people are probably going to say is 'get closer'; but Minmatar ships having the lowest DPS and worst tanks really do not have that option.
Yeah, if i am td'd by a recon cruiser while i fly my geddon i have an extremely easy time of getting close. This sounds exactly like someone whining about speed fits because he's too stubborn to accept that its a viable tactic.
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Please re-think falloff reductions on TDs or introduce new ways to increase falloff and counter the effect they will have on ACs.
Maybe another script for the tracking computer? That sounds reasonable. However there is no valid argument why minnies (a turret race) shouldn't be affected by tds you know.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.03 06:31:00 -
[245]
tl;dr Minmatar closing in to counter the range reduction from TDs results in their ships being exactly where other races want them. Staying at range means pathetic DPS. Not going to bother arguing against Amarr/Gallente pilots who have never flown Minmatar (from what I can see with a quick check) and are suggesting to fit missiles on ships like the Pest/Vaga or that their tanks are better than ships with more slots/bonuses just because their weapons use half the capacitor of an equally sized repper.
Already been training Gallente for the past month and a half so I can MWD into range, hit F1,F2,F3... and then post on the forums on how flying blasterships requires '1337 skillz'. Durr
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.02.03 06:40:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus LOL. Watching this thread is like watching a prize fight. Ariel keeps getting up off the mat, only to be smashed in the face again by Goumindong or Lyria. The Violence is entertaining.
Yes, Goumindong has been quite good entertainment for the evening. /me gets popcorn.
As for my own opinion of the changes. . .
Omen/Zealot: 5 turrets, yum. Just make sure they actually has the grid to actually fit 5 guns. On the other hand, 500 DPS at 11 km (400 DPS at 33 km) is pretty nasty. . .
Apocalypse: WTB Apocalypse BPO. Will these changes pass on to its Navy and T2 variants? The cap bonus is now built in, so it effectively becomes the first Amarr ship to get a real second bonus, and it justifies keeping the optimal bonus below the 10% that is standard. That should make a very good sniper out of it, and the Pulse Laser ramifications are very nice as well. MF range is about 20km and Scorch range about 61km. The very large engagement area may even make up the lack of a damage bonus in gangs. Should be sweet.
The Moa and Eagle needed the turret points. I expect to get the first whine about it in a few weeks, based on some triple MFS Neutron-GankMoa out-DPSing an Microblaster 1600mm RT rax, or some similar silliness. Ferox might still want for a 7th hardpoint, to make it a dedicated railgun sniper. I would request that the Merlin get a third turret point as well, to give the Caldari a more dedicated railgun platform for all ship sizes. It probably doesn't even need any grid either, or at least not much grid.
As for the Deimos, seriously, why a low to a mid rather than a high to a mid?
As for the Raptor, sure, give it a third turret point. But seriously, why the loss of grid? Even T1 MWD+ T1 125mms simply won't fit. Unless you're assuming we all have CN 125mm guns here, I don't see how this is going to work to encourage fitting 125s. They'll just fit 75mms and whine about the Raptor's grid problems.
For a fit of 3x 125mm Protos, 1x Named MWD, assuming all lows for speed mods and 1MW mods in all other slots, you need 36.9 grid to make that fit with AWU V. That's not even fitting a rocket or standard launcher. And if you want T2, or Gistii MWD. . . well. . .
At least a 3x 75mm II, Standard II, MWD II 24km, 3x OD II, 1 1MW mod fit should still fit with skills.
I'm still not sold on the voodoo with the resistances, though I would be sold on applying the racial 10% in the style of a hardener rather than a flat 10% (this advantages Amarr, but penalizes Minmatar).
I am sold on the falloff scripts, though. They now should screw over all guns pretty equally. Missile boats and Drone boats still laugh at them though. The passive Drake is still the Curse's kryptonite. Can't kill it, can't mess with its DPS, can't outrun all the DPS unless you drop a few bil on snakes, can drop FOFs on you even if you damp it until its targeting range is within the*****pit.
-------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Msobe
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Posted - 2008.02.03 06:40:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Falloff on Tracking Disruptors is perhaps the largest single Minmatar nerf in EVE. Amarrian Pulses have almost no falloff, but Minmatar completely rely on staying out of range in falloff.
You do realize that pulses have high optimal and that tds used to be most effective against them since ages? How is it fair that tds only worked against amarr? You didn't complain back then did you?
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
A single TD will cut their DPS by approximately 40-70% (depending on large or medium ACs). The solution people are probably going to say is 'get closer'; but Minmatar ships having the lowest DPS and worst tanks really do not have that option.
Yeah, if i am td'd by a recon cruiser while i fly my geddon i have an extremely easy time of getting close. This sounds exactly like someone whining about speed fits because he's too stubborn to accept that its a viable tactic.
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Please re-think falloff reductions on TDs or introduce new ways to increase falloff and counter the effect they will have on ACs.
Maybe another script for the tracking computer? That sounds reasonable. However there is no valid argument why minnies (a turret race) shouldn't be affected by tds you know.
Yeah - perhaps when people hear that Amarr are "the" TD race, they thought it meant the only race affected by them.
Especially fun when a minmatar pilot thinks he should be able to fit one TD on an unbonused ship to gain an advantage over an amarr opponent, but cries nerf when the amarr (who are supposed to specialize in them) can do the same back to him. (Never mind that the amarr pilot is still less likely to have a mid slot to fit that TD - the fact that he might is clearly unfair!)
Its clear that TD's are meant to make turrets more ineffective at all ranges - by dropping your working range, making you miss if you stay at range, and/or by lowering your tracking, making you miss if you close the distance. Guns with low range/high fall off are hardly impacted. Since TD's are supposed to be useful against all turrets, a change was needed.
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Clansworth
Point-Zero SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.03 08:37:00 -
[248]
What, no +1 turret for the lowly Vulture? It's based on the ferox...
New Prospector Class |
Sarinat Talen
Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2008.02.03 08:39:00 -
[249]
Apologies is someone mentioned this already, but will the Apoc changes translate over to the Paladin? |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.02.03 09:04:00 -
[250]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 03/02/2008 09:06:18
Oh this is great, some people must really be playing different games.
Can you spot the comedy? Originally by: Waxau Also, i honestly don't see why Explosive resists are being lowered on shield tanks. Theyre not our highest resist, nor are Amarr affected. It only boosts minmatar even more, which lets face it - Dont need to be boosted anymore.
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Falloff on Tracking Disruptors is perhaps the largest single Minmatar nerf in EVE. (..) A single TD will cut their DPS by approximately 40-70% (depending on large or medium ACs). The solution people are probably going to say is 'get closer'; but Minmatar ships having the lowest DPS and worst tanks really do not have that option.
Great job devs. I'm enjoying this thread, with mixed feelings I might add.
___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.03 09:34:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Arkady Sadik TD is irrelevent to deimos
No it isnt. Do you know what falloff is? Do you know how blasters work?
No, I don't. This is the second time you get personal and insulting. Obviously, all people who disagree with you do not have a clue. Now, considering I was agreeing with you mostly, people who agree with you have no clue, either.
But yes, the statement you quoted is wrong. It's not irrelevant. But it doesn't affect blasters nearly as much as (medium) ACs, as blaster boats do not have the deadly magic 10/13km barrier, which (some) AC boats sadly do have. Blaster boats want to be inside web range. (Some) AC boats want to be outside web range. Reducing optimal forces everyone into web range. One side gets what they want, the other gets what they do not want.
Now, I won't let this degenerate into a flame fest with you. I stated my opinion repeatedly. So far, I was apparently unable to explain to you what I meant, as your reactions appeared to me to be reactions to things I never said. I doubt repeating myself will help the situation, as I don't think I can express myself any better. Have a nice day :-)
Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 03/02/2008 09:06:18
Oh this is great, some people must really be playing different games.
Can you spot the comedy? Originally by: Waxau Also, i honestly don't see why Explosive resists are being lowered on shield tanks. Theyre not our highest resist, nor are Amarr affected. It only boosts minmatar even more, which lets face it - Dont need to be boosted anymore.
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Falloff on Tracking Disruptors is perhaps the largest single Minmatar nerf in EVE. (..) A single TD will cut their DPS by approximately 40-70% (depending on large or medium ACs). The solution people are probably going to say is 'get closer'; but Minmatar ships having the lowest DPS and worst tanks really do not have that option.
I'm not sure what the comedy there is. Both comments basically say that Minmatar are ok and balanced as-is, and neither boost, nor a nerf, is needed. Something I'd agree with. :-)
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Zoltar Torzoid
Gallente Swag Co. Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.02.03 09:55:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 03/02/2008 09:58:03
Quote: Deimos After a significant amount of testing with the changes to the Zealot, it became apparent that the Deimos had problems compared to the other close range heavy assault ships. As the damage output is already the highest of all the HACs, we looked into boosting its defenses so it had a fighting chance. One of the main problems of actively repaired Deimos setups is the high energy requirement, so we have changed the slot layout so the Deimos can accommodate a capacitor booster.
Deimos:
* Slots: 6/4/5 (+1 med, -1 low) * Capacitor capacity: 1625.0en (+250en) * Bonuses: o 5% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per Gallente Cruiser level (no change) o 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Gallente Cruiser level (replaces the MWD capacitor penalty reduction)
The above mentioned changes to the Deimos and Zealot allow them to better compete on even term with other close range HACs, such as the Sacrilege.
OK so, I just HAD to hop on the test server and check this out. Now, I understand that my skills aren't all at 5, so I cannot say that I'm at max potential for either fitting, but here's what I've found out so far.
Fitting 1 (Current Deimos Setup) Lows: MAR II x2 DC II Expl H II EANM II x2
Mids: Y-T8 Overcharged MWD Warp Disruptor II Med Cap Injector II
Highs: Heavy Electron Blaster II x5 Small Neut II
Rigs: Nano Pump x2 (Armor Repair Ammount)
Resistances: EM - 79 EX - 76 KI - 92 TH - 83
Armor Reppers: 831.95 Damage every 9.61 seconds 86.77 HP/s
418/437 CPU Plenty of grid on both fittings
Fitting 2 (Proposed Changes) Lows: MAR II x1 DC II Expl H II EANM II x2
Mids: Y-T8 Overcharged MWD Warp Disruptor II Webber II Med Cap Injector II
Highs: Heavy Electron Blaster II x5 Small Neut II
Rigs: Nano Pump(Armor Repair Ammount) / Anti-EM Pump
Resistances: EM - 79 EX - 76 KI - 92 TH - 83
Armor Reppers: 506 Damage every 9.61 seconds 52.65 HP/s
don't remember the exact CPU, but it was +/- 10 Plenty of grid on both fittings
Yes, this is basic math, but it still doesn't lie. I don't understand how removing a low and adding a mid allows for the ability to create a better tank. Looks to me my old fitting's got the new one beat hands down.
Couple that with the fact that even if there was another slot left to put in a second repper, there's no longer enough CPU.
Ok so, I can use a webber now to hold my target still, I can't tank as well despite the added mid slot for extra cap, which I might add is now being sucked up increasingly fast by my MWD that no longer gets it's 10% bonus. Which would be fine if it was replaced by something that could be considered equal. The 7.5% per level bonus to armor repair amount is weak in comparison to a dual repped ship with the same resistances, and a slower cap drain due to less use by the MWD. Whoever thought this through stopped a bit shy of complete. I suggest you try again.
-Zoltar
We Build the Stuff You Steal |
Salacir Khan
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Posted - 2008.02.03 09:57:00 -
[253]
What about the Apocalypes Navy Issue ? Will it get changed as well ? Right now its the same as before on SiSi. If it stays this way the Faction Variant will be the worst of all the Amarr BS...
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Gyufa Arus
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Posted - 2008.02.03 10:18:00 -
[254]
I'm afraid that no matter what we say, since CCP growed this big, there are too many clever people in it, they will read this forums, they will act like they care what we say, but actually noone will listen. The deimos is going to be (stealth) nerfed no matter what.
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Noelle Fay
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Posted - 2008.02.03 10:55:00 -
[255]
CCP:
Please consider swapping the EM/Thermal damage on crystals... turn thermal into the primary damage type and make EM second. This would probably solve most of the issues.. think about it and test it.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:05:00 -
[256]
One thing you should keep in mind, CCP.....
You've been boosting ships individually (like this) or collectively (HP buff, Rigs) for a while now, but you've completely neglected to increase the difficulty of NPC's or missions along the way. This means that it's now much less risky to run missions, meaning that a lot less ships are lost to it and a lot more money made from it. From a game balance point of view that not a good thing.
Example, before rigs, you could perma-tank a Raven only at the expense of firepower, but now you can permatank and still have 3 BCS on it. Yes, I know this require an expensive Gist booster, but the principle in the example extends to all other fits. You tank better, you give more damage, but NPC's has not been adjusted. Indeed, for missions a lot of them has been made a lot easier because of reduced number of NPC's.
You should look at buffing NPC's (significantly) soon....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kumq uat
Gallente Round Table Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:14:00 -
[257]
I really don't understand the Deimos changes. If you are going to take away a slot take away the 6th high slot and not a low slot. That really hurts any tanking ability. Also, a Deimos will fit a MWD and the thing helping it keep so much cap is the MWD bonus. I really really don't see why that needs to be changed. I guess I will be stuck with flying Ishtars if the Deimos is going to be gimped like that. www.eve-pirate.com author and goat molestor.
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Brzhk
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:30:00 -
[258]
The cap whining is just strange... 'Cause as the cap is extended, if we loose some cap when fitting a MWD, it ain't really an issue. But the diseapearing low slot is more of an issue. Why don't you take a (useless) high slot instead?
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Charlie Seriya
Gallente Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:35:00 -
[259]
I think cutting the Raptor grid is a mistake. The Raptor struggled a bit to fit weapons even before the grid got cut, now it's just a nightmare. There's just no fitting 3 125mm Rails and a MWD right now without a MAPC, and yes, a MWD *IS* essential on a tackling inty because there's no way in hell you're tackling a Vagabond or in fact any nanocruiser without one.
Malediction has un-nerfed turrets/launchers and 35 grid Ares + Stiletto have extra low and high slots and 30 grid Raptor just got it's turrets un-nerfed and it's grid is 26??
Raptor is a bit of a joke compared to the Malediction now.
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Messingaround
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:41:00 -
[260]
Yay Apoc, Omen, Zealot, Ferox, Moa, Eagle changes
Nay Raptor, Deimos changes
Also buff the Crane's pg |
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MysteriousJade
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:42:00 -
[261]
dont know if someone mentioned it - my paladin on the testserver has 50 base em armorresie ... the first amarr oompf blog says it only affects t1 ships. bug or feature?
will the paladin get the love like the apoc? 7.5% tracking/lvl and 25% more cap instead of the 5% cap/lvl?
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Tintifish
Species 5618 Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:43:00 -
[262]
Deimos: 5x Heavy Ion II MWD II, 24km Scram, Web II, electrochem booster MAR II, 2x EANM II, 2x MFS II
Fits with AWU 4 with 17 pg and 5 cpu to spare
As much as i would like that empty high removed instead of the low, wheres the problem?
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Trigos Trilobi
Man-Eating Village Idiots
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:54:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/02/2008 18:45:02
Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm not sure that I like the idea of the optimal range script affecting falloff. Mostly, because there is no counter for this.
Has the Optimal script for TC's been adjusted to also increase falloff?
-Liang
No they have not.
There are counters. They are called falloff rigs.
Not that that matters much anyway. There are other counters called drones and missiles and "getting closer"
edit: before the change, every ship could fit a single module that made lasers useless. There is no bias agaisnt AC's or blasters here, its just a reduction in range.
Laughable to argue that there is no bias, as long as AC boats have only two rig slots to play with, while laser boats have the same rig slots and both a med and a low slot module and a remote option as a counter.
Not to mention it is equally laughable to insist that a ship which relies on speed to avoid most damage isn't hurt more by being forced to web range than a ship that typically has a hefty armor tank fitted.
Now, I can fairly well understand the sentiment that it makes sense that ac's are equally affected, but looking at this from other perspective, was a nerf to acs (and to lesser extent blasters) really needed? Not to mention this will end up being a nerf to amarrs too since TDs will be used a lot more than before. So in fact, did drone and missile ships need a boost? Should we perhaps add a +explosion radius component to TDs too just to make sure they are viable in enough situations (there's actually more counters against +explosion radius than -falloff, go figure)?
The webbing system should be fixed first. Then see if TDs (and painters) even need to be fixed or was their perceived underperfoming due to the bogus web system. Fixing symptoms instead of the cause is futile anyway.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:58:00 -
[264]
I'm glad that the Amarr are getting some much needed love, and it's nice to see the Ferox getting a fix up too. While it's nice to see some thought going in to the rather useless Deimos, those changes seem pointless. I can't imagine how they'll make a positive impact on it's beleaguered game. Well worth a rethink, that one. ------
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
farfrael
Freelancer Union
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:12:00 -
[265]
Even though I am a deimos pilot, I'm not very happy with the proposed changes to this ship
It used to be unique, had to think carefully about how you fit it and what you could do or not do with it. It was hard to fly it solo but great in gang when somebody else was scramming your target.
Now it's just going to become yet another soloPvPmobile cookie-cutter build: slap a med cap booster and here you go. The gallente have got deimos = eos = astarte. almost the same ships, with the same fit and with the same bonuses. Talk about boring
Frankly, not all ships should be equal (in the same category) and some should be less good than others. But CCP has been on a crusade for the past year or so to harmonise everything. Want to fly a SB? pick any, they are all identical. Want a HAC? same thing, they have all been brought "in-line". Eve used to be great, you had to really think about your ship, your setup etc. Nowadays, who cares, all ships are more or less equal anyway.
If you feel the Deimos is under-powered, you can either increase its stats and bring it at the same level as every other ship with the same stats etc etc OR you can keep as it is but make it cheaper than the other HACs. THAT would bring diversity.
Ships stats are not the ONLY thing CCP needs to play with to change a ship's desirability, you know. IMHO, it would be better for the game to have a slightly less powerful deimos (keep it as it is) which cost 15-20% less (random numbers, maybe up to 40% less) than other HACs.
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Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:24:00 -
[266]
For 1st look the changes are nice GRAT
But i think u forgot some ships, for example:
Pilgrim Vulture
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Free Merchant
Brick Pharmaceuticals and Chicken Wings LLC.
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:34:00 -
[267]
Thanks for making the demios rock even more!pewpew
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rgreat
Gallente OEG Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:41:00 -
[268]
Edited by: rgreat on 03/02/2008 12:43:18 4th med slot is useles on Deimos compared to lost 6th lowslot.
Deimos don't have enough cargohold and CPU/Grid to fit cap boosters.
Slot layout change on deimos is a plain nerf.
Just add 350 cap to base capacitor (instead of 250) to fully compensate for MWD bonus lost and it will be all good as it was. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
Faye Valerii
Caldari Exeunt Omnes
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:59:00 -
[269]
Entire fleets of Amarr and Caldari ships have sucked for years ... and now they finally get minor boosts.
One Gallente HAC may have appeared slightly less overpowered than it used to for a few weeks ... and it gets fixed instantly.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.03 13:08:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Faye Valerii Entire fleets of Amarr and Caldari ships have sucked for years ... and now they finally get minor boosts.
One Gallente HAC may have appeared slightly less overpowered than it used to for a few weeks ... and it gets fixed instantly.
Ontop of that gallente wants damage boosts on hybrids wich is lol just because amarr is getting some fixes they have been waiting for for 2,5 years. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
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