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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.02 20:46:00 -
[31]
yes, imbalance is not equal diversity. But diversity always implies imbalance. Need to try balance things without hurting diversity. Deimos MWD bonus change is one of those things that does very little for game balance while hurting game diversity.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.02.02 20:54:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal /signed.
First the Eos becoming totally ineffective. Then the Myrmidon made unable to take down a Drake when set up with the Drake's uber tank setup, and now a Deimos against a Zealot when it's even in range should be a fair fight! It's not the Zealot that's the problem now, it's the Eagle and all the sniper vessels that's the problem! FFS who's birdbrain thought that was a good idea?!
Yes, Gallente have massive damage. But in equal measure they have NO RANGE to play with. Fighting Gallente Blaster Boats has always been a case of: if the Gallente ship gets in range, you die. If you keep it at range, they die. Simple. Effective. Fun. Predictable.
Now people will try to use the Deimos as a Rail boat and snipering from a Deimos effectively renders this ship almost entirely useless. In fact it's so ridiculously LOL just saying it!
So CCP: EITHER make Railguns more easily fitable on Gallente blasterboats, thus making Gallente proper Hybrid platforms vs just blaster platforms, OR leave them the hell alone, because you've just broken something that was 100% fine. If you MUST balance the Deimos it needs even higher resists or more base Armor (for the Eagle) and even higher damage (to maintain it's damage over the Zealot when in range)
Either way, it's Caldari always seem to get more love than Gallente, however and the imbalance between Caldari and Gallente is growing every patch. Now the Deimos vs an Eagle is actually my main worry.
How many Gallante ships are "worst in class"? Eos, perhaps? I can't think of many others. Of ANY others, in fact. I dunno, maybe the Exeq is the worst mining cruiser?
Now, how many Caldari ships merit the "worst in class" title?
Compare the lengths of these 2 lists before complaining that Caldari have gotten a couple of minor buffs lately.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Jacob Holland
Gallente 19th Star Logistics
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Posted - 2008.02.02 21:52:00 -
[33]
Caldari worst in class...
Raptor..?
(not including the Moa and co because of the current changes).
Best in class?
How about the best EWar cruiser and the best long range cruiser, how about potentially the highest DPS BS, the longest range BS, the ONLY EWar BS..? How about the most effective high speed Interceptor?
Diversity is what you make of it.
Lets tweak my earlier example, let's make it ten Caracals and ten Thorax at 100km, yes the thoraxes can warp out but what does that gain them? they can death or glory it but they're unlikely to still have ships at the end of it. It doesn't look good on the killboards but it is important to note that forcing your opponent to retreat is a victory. If you force a fleet off a POS then either they lose a POS or you retain one. --
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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6Bagheera9
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.02 23:40:00 -
[34]
This is a disturbing new trend that I few noticed with the proposed changes to armor EM and shield explosive resists. Note that I'm a Matari pilot and such a change would benefit me by making EMP more potent. CCP should start out by fixing the most straight forward stuff first rather than reinventing ships left and right. Here is my "Duh!" fix list.
1. Switch Jaguar and Wolf optimal/fall-off bonuses. 2. Boost lock range for the Claw. 21km with MAX skills. 3. Give the Myrmidon 100mb bandwidth, currently it has no more than the Vexor (75mb). 4. Overhaul tier 1 BCs: Currently obsolete compared to tier 2 Cyclone: +1 turret, General hp/cap boost Ferox: +1 turret, General hp/Cap boost, maybe more grid. Brutix: More grid (***** to fit with T1), more hp/cap Prophecy: More grid, more hp/cap (should have more base armor hp than the Harbinger.) 5. Switch Typhoon's base armor/shield hp FFS. 7lows and 4 mids = ARMOR tanker. There are probably a half-a-dozen other fixes out there, but these are the ones I'm most familiar and confident in. I leave it to others to bring up those I failed to mention.
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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar Ama-gi
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Posted - 2008.02.02 23:51:00 -
[35]
Originally by: 6Bagheera9 5. Switch Typhoon's base armor/shield hp FFS. 7lows and 4 mids = ARMOR tanker. There are probably a half-a-dozen other fixes out there, but these are the ones I'm most familiar and confident in. I leave it to others to bring up those I failed to mention.
Quickly removes the 3 Gyrostab, 3 Ballistic Controls from his low slots
all kidding aside the OP as well as Bagheera9 both have some valid points. I hope that the fact they are in here and not on the devblog comment thread, means they will be read by devs. -- No love for the Matari |
Hunter Vonnegut
In terrorem KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.03 00:05:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: El Torrent deimos was fine, if used in its role (gank boat)
Too bad no one used it. People like to nano ishtars instead.
hm... not true,
My nice polycarb faction fitted ishtar sees less flight time than my rigged t2 fitted deimos.
Scram, release drones, orbit got very old very fast. The deimos imo, is a helluva a lot more fun to fly, because A) it does way more damage when fit correctly. B) There is a good chance that the guy that is about to web me may have some set up which may toast me very quickly. Which leads to my heart rate going up, which leads to excitment, which leads to fun.
Honestly if I wanted to win every fight I got into I would rat.
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Kristoffer
Amarr Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2008.02.03 00:18:00 -
[37]
The current deimos is utter garbage and anyone who actually flies it as a blastership is living in 2005. The ship has been unable to gank since... what... the beginning of RMR with the HP buff? Its an overpriced pos that gets killed as soon as -anything- gets tossed in its direction.
It needs a change.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.02.03 00:18:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jacob Holland Caldari worst in class...
Raptor..?
(not including the Moa and co because of the current changes).
Best in class?
How about the best EWar cruiser and the best long range cruiser, how about potentially the highest DPS BS, the longest range BS, the ONLY EWar BS..? How about the most effective high speed Interceptor?
Diversity is what you make of it.
If you're talking t1, Raven is not the highest DPS BS.
So to narrow it down: We have the best Ewar; our frig goes the fastest while doing 50 dps; our t3 BS can shoot farther; we have a "ewar" BS.
Gal has the... highest dps cruiser; 2nd highest dps BS; Only "drone" BS; Best drone users; Highest dps BC (I havn't checked post Trinity, still beats my Drake though ).
Min has the... highest dps BS; fastest HAC; fastest BC; fastest BS; Best webbers;
Amarr has the... coolest looking ships; Lasers; idk what else, they can Neut I guess.
Totally Caldari online IMO.
I'm not really including the t2 battleships, massive ECM weakness hurts my eyes.
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.03 00:30:00 -
[39]
hey kiaeddz do you still fit lasers on your deimos
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Polkageist
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Posted - 2008.02.03 00:50:00 -
[40]
/thats a roger
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Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.03 03:48:00 -
[41]
Honestly, I wish they would just make every ship the same. That way everyone will KNOW that its THEIR OWN FAULT that they suck, and can't blame it on their race, ship, guns, etc.
If you want to know why eve is making all ships the same, its people like Jonny JoJo, do what you can to stop them, as long as its legal. (Remember, its only illegal if you're caught) _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.02.03 04:09:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Min has the... highest dps BS; fastest HAC; fastest BC; fastest BS; Best webbers;
Gallente has the highest dps BS by far (wtf are you smoking?)
Don't even try to tell me the "fastest BC" and "fastest BS" is even an advantage.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.02.03 04:18:00 -
[43]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Don't even try to tell me the "fastest BC" and "fastest BS" is even an advantage.
It is if you fit long range guns and can keep your opponent within your range but outside theirs ^_^
In PvE, it is quite possible to go up against multiple cruisers and battlecruisers in a Min battlecruiser and come out without having taken a single hit.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.02.03 04:24:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Don't even try to tell me the "fastest BC" and "fastest BS" is even an advantage.
It is if you fit long range guns and can keep your opponent within your range but outside theirs ^_^
In PvE, it is quite possible to go up against multiple cruisers and battlecruisers in a Min battlecruiser and come out without having taken a single hit.
Battleships don't just go around and roam by themselves and run into other battleships roaming alone. At AB speeds, the difference is almost negligible. BS's don't usually hit top MWD speed either, it sucks too much cap. Same goes for BCs. They're gang ships.
And Minmatar is the worst race for PvE.
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Lil Mule
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Posted - 2008.02.03 05:30:00 -
[45]
I have to say that this illustrates to me that I was correct in my earlier posts, that CCP has no idea or long term planning laid out for EVE ships, and overall ship combat and ship balance. They come up with ideas, and toss ships into the mix (ie: Destroyers, T2 frigates, Battleships were once referenced as capital ships, Battlecruisers) almost on the fly, and try to squeeze them in. Then after adding in the ships, they spend the next 6-8 months nerfing various ships very heavily, not examining the repurcussions of their nerfs, and then later, have to boost most of them back because they finally realize that they've nerfed them so bad that no one wants to fly them anymore and/or the ship is completely useless.
On the other hand, I also have to say that I find these posts quite amusing too. Let me explain. Ive flown all of the races at a T2 level except Gallente. Never quite got around to them as my hands were full with the 3 other races. Since my time here at Eve, Ive witnessed nerf after nerf after nerf to Caldari and Amarr, to the point where many of the ships in both of those races were reduced to plain crap (Moa, Raven for PVP, Ferox, Eagle, Pilgrim, Curse, Zealot, any Amarr Cruiser, just about any Amarr BS). Ive witnessed boost after boost after boost to Minmatar (primarily) and Gallente. Could be that Im looking at this from a PVP perspective, because lets face it, Caldari always have been, and probably always will be the kings of PVE. However the number of SP to participate in PVE is significantly less than PVP - so I dont think its a valid point to look at which race is best at PVE (just simply train up Caldari BS to 2 or 3 and you'll be fine with a Raven). So, it is amusing, that for the longest time, all of the Gallente based pilots would flame the crap out of the Amarr pilots when the Amarr pilots would say that their ships cant compete on the battlefield.
Now that there are two nerfs against the Gallente, they are out full force posting up a storm. Maybe now that you've had the experience with the Diemos, we can all evaluate more objectively about the impact of changes, and support fair and just changes for all ships, and not just demand boosts for the ships that we fly only. But then again, Im dreaming......
Flame on!
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People enjoy flying Amarr for the same reason they like being tied up in leather, whipped and called names
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Zanon Xiu
Dogs 0f War
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Posted - 2008.02.03 05:40:00 -
[46]
am i the only one who read the ship dev blog and at the very end they say they are keeping a close eye, especially on the demios change?
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.02.03 06:04:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sara Roeburn Problem is an Amarrs tanks is usefull and so is the Matari speed and so is the Gallante damage.
No, no it is not. How useful do you think is speed for a hurricane when it can be webbed at 13 km? And that once webbed the nice drones of gallente will eat it alive while it is fighting at around x1 falloff even with barrage? Or vs missiles, where it'll get hit anyway? What, kite it at 20 km so that your ship has time to turn around (given its mass) to maintain range? And the dps will be what, 0ish?
Close range is where fights happen. And currently mimatar ships have been nicely gimped thanks to heat because once you get webbed you can forget about range, and only one ship has a bonus to falloff.
On battleships? I doubt they'll be alone. So yes, even on a 1v1 some minmatar ships have advantage, it'll get webbed pretty soon like the other battleships. And guess what. Your speed counts for 0 once you are webbed but the others damage and tanking bonuses do count for something. Your bonus depends on being able to react fast enough on something that is extremely sluggish.
Vs caldari, speed & range do nothing at all.
Vs other races, if you get too close you'll get webbed and play into their tanky game. If you fly far enough you'll get outdps due to being in their better range.
And it's funny cause all these webs directly affect one of our supposed advantages. If this was supposed to **** with nanoships, hell, the right answer is to make sure that the ships that can go fast can kill the other ships that shouldn't be speeding around without having to constantly worry about whether the other nanos have a web on or not.
Yes, I'm disappointed with current minmatar ships. I'm still very unhappy about heated webs.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.02.03 10:38:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 03/02/2008 10:44:43
Well yes, I agree.
Some fundamental problems:
* Damage bonus > everything else * Mixed weapon platforms = subpar * 4 med slots = mandatory, because MWD, Web, Scram and Cap Boost is mandatory
Notice something? Weapon homogenization. Mid slot complaints. "Can't xyz get a damage bonus instead of zyx?". "Boo, xyz is crap / does no damage! (has no damage bonus)". Etc. Etc.
I seems EVE and it's playerbase becomes increasingly narrow-minded. Or maybe some basic things are just not balanced/too good, and the devs can't change them, because it would invoke an epic whine-fest and many people 'would quit'.
___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
Pesadel0
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.03 10:45:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Prez21 Eve gets worse with every patch, and your right soonish we will be flying ships that perform exactly the same but just look slightly different and thats because the majority of the ppl who play eve nowadays have no idea how to fly there ships properly or fit them so they whine on the forums and because they make up a large amount of ccps income they are getting there own way most of the time.
Complettly agreed ,people that came from wow ,trying to shift the balance ,or worse fenhal is a wow dev too?
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Spenz
Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.02.03 10:47:00 -
[50]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Min has the... highest dps BS; fastest HAC; fastest BC; fastest BS; Best webbers;
Gallente has the highest dps BS by far (wtf are you smoking?)
Don't even try to tell me the "fastest BC" and "fastest BS" is even an advantage.
*cough*raven*cough*
Torp changes made it so that you can easily out-dps a T2 neutron-mega with a T2 torp-raven. Not only out-dps, UTTERLY out-dps. It isn't even comparable. Your looking at upwards to 200 more dps from the torps.
Gallente blaster-boats used to be the highest dps battleships, now they are the second highest dps. Unfortunately they are still the closest range battleships. Torp raven can do more dps with over twice the range.
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
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Ikonz
Red.
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Posted - 2008.02.03 11:41:00 -
[51]
I can't really add anything here.
/signed
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Sebroth
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:11:00 -
[52]
there are alot of ships I dont fly since I dont like them, deimos is one of them.
but that doesnt mean it need to be changed!!
we need more unique and strange ships, not less of them
----- Never knock on Death's door; ring the doorbell and run (he hates that) |
Jonny JoJo
Amarr The Imperial Guards
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:13:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/02/2008 12:17:47
Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw.
removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous.
It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship.
Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same.
I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this.
eve pvp has changed since rigs/nano and various other changes came in. Glass cannon Demios is still the 2006 mindset, not the 2008 one. Just stop playing eve like it was 2006 and you will see what a boost the demios got. In fact, without this demios boost, the demios would be confined to what the zealot used to be, which is obsolete hac. Fantastic work Zulupark on fixing this.
Also remember that MWD is almost 100% certain to get nerfed. So dont count on using them anymore, as ships may be using afterburners soon after nano/mwd nerf. If pvp changes to Ab, then the demious ranks in the top hac category.
Demios change is great, now it can fit cap booster and use repper. Sig locked, lack of Eve content |
wierchas noobhunter
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:44:00 -
[54]
if u make all ships the same no one will ever whine .. get a clue guys tho there is no difference in ships when use them in blobs cos eve=blob
transformers!! do u see them ? |
wierchas noobhunter
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/02/2008 12:17:47
Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw.
removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous.
It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship.
Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same.
I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this.
eve pvp has changed since rigs/nano and various other changes came in. Glass cannon Demios is still the 2006 mindset, not the 2008 one. Just stop playing eve like it was 2006 and you will see what a boost the demios got. In fact, without this demios boost, the demios would be confined to what the zealot used to be, which is obsolete hac. Fantastic work Zulupark on fixing this.
Also remember that MWD is almost 100% certain to get nerfed. So dont count on using them anymore, as ships may be using afterburners soon after nano/mwd nerf. If pvp changes to Ab, then the demious ranks in the top hac category.
Demios change is great, now it can fit cap booster and use repper.
dude wtf if u would eve fly deimos u would know that its no only glass cannon now, its even will not have dps
transformers!! do u see them ? |
Ekuwy Oizoa
Anthrax Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.03 14:09:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Ekuwy Oizoa on 03/02/2008 14:11:19
Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/02/2008 12:17:47
Originally by: KIAEddZ Edited by: KIAEddZ on 02/02/2008 10:15:22 Its been happening far far too much, and this tbh for me, is the final straw.
removing the MWD bonus from the Diemos is just totally ridiculous.
It is one of the few characteristics that made it a unique ship.
Whoever is thinking up these ideas, doesnt play this game, or hasnt played enough variance to know, that we do not want all ships to be the same.
I feel this "change" is among the worst CCP have proposed to roll out in quite some time. Yes the Cap increase compensates for it somewhat, but I personally feel it is just a step too far in taking away the unique features of the various ships in the game... very sad panda today seeing this.
eve pvp has changed since rigs/nano and various other changes came in. Glass cannon Demios is still the 2006 mindset, not the 2008 one. Just stop playing eve like it was 2006 and you will see what a boost the demios got. In fact, without this demios boost, the demios would be confined to what the zealot used to be, which is obsolete hac. Fantastic work Zulupark on fixing this.
Also remember that MWD is almost 100% certain to get nerfed. So dont count on using them anymore, as ships may be using afterburners soon after nano/mwd nerf. If pvp changes to Ab, then the demious ranks in the top hac category.
Demios change is great, now it can fit cap booster and use repper.
Ok first of all, its Deimos. not:
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
demios demious
or whatever. First of all, you have never flown a blastership before, so dont talk about it like this 'boost' is awesome.
You, as an amarrian, may have a hard time to realise that more medslots doesnt equal a boost. Its a high dps, gankboat and the ship is balanced by its low hp.
Its a boost for the wrong reasons, but gallente pilots will turn this absolutely into something positive. Im thinking: neutrons, dual shieldextenders or just one and a web, 3 magstabs and nano the rest of it.
Why the **** would anyone wanna capinject a ship that kills its target in less than 30 seconds (or else the deimos dies). You cannot active tank a hac. Only the sacriledge is capable of this.
And yeh, awesome a mwd nerf. We are all gonna swap to afterburners, cause a deimos getting in range slower = teh pwn.
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Hunter Vonnegut
In terrorem KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.03 16:19:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Hunter Vonnegut on 03/02/2008 16:20:14
Quote: Its a boost for the wrong reasons, but gallente pilots will turn this absolutely into something positive. Im thinking: neutrons, dual shieldextenders or just one and a web, 3 magstabs and nano the rest of it.
Yeah so is this the new "2008" mindest huh? Nano everything? Why not just give every race a vagabond and make them different colors to distinguish them apart? That seems to be the goal of almost all new hac fits these days.
I also do not understand why anyone would want to nano fit a blastership, yeah that LSE is going to definitely come in handy when you inevitably get webbed...
Quote: Why the **** would anyone wanna capinject a ship that kills its target in less than 30 seconds (or else the deimos dies). You cannot active tank a hac. Only the sacriledge is capable of this
Active tank on my deimos has worked for me plenty of times. I just never expected it to last longer than 45 seconds to a minute, but if things went as planned it didnt need to tank any longer.
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Azirapheal
Amarr The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.03 16:26:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: El Torrent deimos was fine, if used in its role (gank boat)
Too bad no one used it. People like to nano ishtars instead.
really? im a fan of balls to the wall deimos's and thorax's always have been, to me the real problem stems from a drive to make eve safer than it used to be. too large a proportion of the playerbase is vocal in its whining to fix certain things, and FOTM has always drawn the developers wrath
i fly gallente aswell as amarr and other stuff, and im not exactly wetting my pants with joy over this new "safer" deimos.
it was and should allways be balls to the wall, tank or gank no compromise.
i might start whining for lasers to be restored to their former glory if the nerfbat keeps falling like this imho, i want faster, more bloody fights, i want piracy to be viable. i dont want eve to edge closer to hello kitty online, unescape or WOW
its what brought me to this game in the first place
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Ikonz
Blue.
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Posted - 2008.02.11 19:06:00 -
[59]
bump
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.02.11 19:55:00 -
[60]
GIVE BACK THE MWD BONUS!!!
SCREW TANK, ITS NOT A FLIPPING SOLO SHIP!!! ----------------- Friends Forever
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