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Tracking Disruptors [Devs.. you forgot something]

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Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.03 03:41:00 - [1] These are going to affect falloff. UNFORTUNATELY, Tracking Computers don't boost falloff. This means that minmatar, who rely 99% on falloff, have no means to counter tracking disruptors once they reduce falloff. If you expect minmatar to have any chance against someone with a tracking disruptor, give us the ability to counter it somehow. _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.03 03:50:00 - [2] I think you forgot to actually TEST the damn things before crying about them. For **** sakes, I still prefer using a multi-spec ECM or even an ECM Burst over using a damn tracking disruptor. My ship even has a BONUS for them (TD's). Project: Gank - Solo Pilgrim Video
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.03 04:09:00 - [3] Originally by: Feng Schui I think you forgot to actually TEST the damn things before crying about them. For **** sakes, I still prefer using a multi-spec ECM or even an ECM Burst over using a damn tracking disruptor. My ship even has a BONUS for them (TD's). Rabble rabble, maybe you didn't hear that they're getting boosted. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Update: I bought a Datahand for RSI, and I now suck at typing (so I don't post as much)
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.03 04:42:00 - [4] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Feng Schui I think you forgot to actually TEST the damn things before crying about them. For **** sakes, I still prefer using a multi-spec ECM or even an ECM Burst over using a damn tracking disruptor. My ship even has a BONUS for them (TD's). Rabble rabble, maybe you didn't hear that they're getting boosted. -Liang Troll or just that dense? Yes, I tested them, and yes, they are still crap compared to multi-spec ECMs on a non-ecm ship. And before you ask, yes, I tested on both minmatar, gallente, and amarr close range + far range setups. But you probably don't realize that, since you probably don't log onto sisi? Project: Gank - Solo Pilgrim Video
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.03 04:48:00 - [5] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 03/02/2008 04:52:04 Considering a vast majority of minmatar t2 ships rely on hanging at the edge of falloff (since we don't have real tanks, for the most part), if they can cut down our falloff from 22k-ish to 11k-ish, we will be completely neutralized. Last I checked, tracking disruptors don't have a very short optimal range, and so will never fail. The point isn't that the modules might or might not suck. It's that everything in EVE has a counter. ECM vs ECCM Tracking Disruptor vs Tracking Computer (pre-boost) Sensor Dampener vs Sensor Booster If they add falloff to tracking disruptor and don't add falloff to tracking computer, there will be an imbalance. I'm not sure you should be the one to call someone whining, considering your sig.. You want a boost for one of the most powerful recons? (curse) I could understand pilgrim, as they suck solo :) _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.03 05:09:00 - [6] Don't care so much about the curse tbh, just the pilgrim. Anyways.. Level 4 weapon disruption, level 4 turret disruption, in the pilgrim. Falloff or optimal was not affected (or at least, had 0 visible effect on damage taken / average hits) in a "Yay, that nano ship has to come into web range now" type of way. Maintained orbit / range, nothing changed. Of course, if you're not running level 4 / level 5 in your gunnery support skill, yes, you will see a huge change. Of course, you'd die anyways since you don't have any of the basic skill sets. But, I will say, that this change is a nice change for the curse, since it has the slots to use more than 1 (Pilgrim can only afford to use 1). 2 Optimal/Falloff scripted TDs and a Tracking speed scripted TD should be pretty much win against turret ships. (Instead of the 3 damps = win against any ships). Anyways, as I said, a multi-spec ECM on my pilgrim will help me avoid more damage than a tracking disruptor, with any script, will. Project: Gank - Solo Pilgrim Video
Zhulik Abyss Restless Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.02.03 05:09:00 - [7] gasp! a stealth missile boost!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.03 05:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Feng Schui Troll or just that dense? Yes, I tested them, and yes, they are still crap compared to multi-spec ECMs on a non-ecm ship. And before you ask, yes, I tested on both minmatar, gallente, and amarr close range + far range setups. But you probably don't realize that, since you probably don't log onto sisi? You know, unless they gave them a 1% falloff effect, I'm pretty sure I'd notice it. Afterall, I notice the damage increase from 10% extra falloff rather dramatically. I can only assume that you're too dense to work out how weapon damage works. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Update: I bought a Datahand for RSI, and I now suck at typing (so I don't post as much)
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.03 05:33:00 - [9] The point the OP was making was simply that there is no way to counter the loss in falloff, while there clearly should be. Originally by: Feng Schui Anyways, as I said, a multi-spec ECM on my pilgrim will help me avoid more damage than a tracking disruptor, with any script, will. Well, I don't fly the Pilgrim myself so I obviously never tried it, but I can't honestly see what a single unbonused multi-spec ECM should jam, except for a frigate maybe, I mean we're talking about a maximum jammer strength of 3 here, unless you put a few distortion amps in the lows, which imho makes no sense for one module. Care to enlighten me?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.03 05:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon These are going to affect falloff. UNFORTUNATELY, Tracking Computers don't boost falloff. This means that minmatar, who rely 99% on falloff, have no means to counter tracking disruptors once they reduce falloff. If you expect minmatar to have any chance against someone with a tracking disruptor, give us the ability to counter it somehow. Yes, you do. They are called falloff rigs. Rigs are cheaper to fit in terms of trad-offs than lows and meds. Deal with it.

Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2008.02.03 06:02:00 - [11] And they don't effect missiles or drones at all. Warning: Tracking disruptor's effectiveness is largely determined by the weapon system it's being used against.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.03 06:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Goumindong Yes, you do. They are called falloff rigs. Rigs are cheaper to fit in terms of trad-offs than lows and meds. Deal with it. Then you'd also say Amarr cap is fine, you just need to fit a couple of CCC rigs? /sarcasm off
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.02.03 06:41:00 - [13] This buff to TD has massive implications for Minmatar, its going to effectively shut down all AC boats. Not a pleasant thought. Now its true TD's need this buff but lets be honest, do we really want to obsolete the only viable weapon the Minmatar have? Artillery is a laughing stock, so most players went AC for PvP. Its not a matter of adapting, people put all the falloff boosting they can onto their ships, just so they can viably fight, now we reduce their range and cause massive dps reductions in the process. Its not a matter of grinning and taking some extra hits for been close, Minmatar generally can't take those extra hits, hence why people fight at the top end of falloff. I do believe its time that Target Painters got a boost, a reduction to the targets resists would be a good one. If it directly increased dps then its going to help when your fighting in falloff. Also for tracking computers and tracking enhancers, there certainly should be a falloff bonus. Lastly, one of the Minmatar T1 ammunitions should have a falloff bonus, not an optimal bonus. My vote is for a +20% falloff bonus be added to Depleted Uranium. We all know that the minmatar ammunition is far short when it comes to total damage and is spread over multiple damage types so an extra bonus to an ammunition that at small had 8 damage spread over 3 damage types isn't overpowered. Lastly, its time Artillery was rebalanced, its inferior in every way and now that the Amarr are getting a sniping battleship, its time Minmatar were given the option also. It doesn't help that not only does Artillery have a short range, but the minmatar have a woeful targeting range as well.
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Nian Banks This buff to TD has massive implications for Minmatar, its going to effectively shut down all AC boats. Not a pleasant thought. Now its true TD's need this buff but lets be honest, do we really want to obsolete the only viable weapon the Minmatar have? Artillery is a laughing stock, so most players went AC for PvP. Its not a matter of adapting, people put all the falloff boosting they can onto their ships, just so they can viably fight, now we reduce their range and cause massive dps reductions in the process. Its not a matter of grinning and taking some extra hits for been close, Minmatar generally can't take those extra hits, hence why people fight at the top end of falloff. I do believe its time that Target Painters got a boost, a reduction to the targets resists would be a good one. If it directly increased dps then its going to help when your fighting in falloff. Also for tracking computers and tracking enhancers, there certainly should be a falloff bonus. Lastly, one of the Minmatar T1 ammunitions should have a falloff bonus, not an optimal bonus. My vote is for a +20% falloff bonus be added to Depleted Uranium. We all know that the minmatar ammunition is far short when it comes to total damage and is spread over multiple damage types so an extra bonus to an ammunition that at small had 8 damage spread over 3 damage types isn't overpowered. Lastly, its time Artillery was rebalanced, its inferior in every way and now that the Amarr are getting a sniping battleship, its time Minmatar were given the option also. It doesn't help that not only does Artillery have a short range, but the minmatar have a woeful targeting range as well. Yes, a TRACKING DISRUPTOR should SHUT DOWN <insert race here's> guns. Get used to it, because it's a beautiful thing when something finally works.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:24:00 - [15] But I would like some defense against missiles
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Julius Romanus Yes, a TRACKING DISRUPTOR should SHUT DOWN <insert race here's> guns. Get used to it, because it's a beautiful thing when something finally works. Yes, it should. However a TRACKING COMPUTER should counter a tracking disruptor... which it does not for one race, Minmatar. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Update: I bought a Datahand for RSI, and I now suck at typing (so I don't post as much)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:32:00 - [17] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 03/02/2008 06:20:03 Originally by: Goumindong Yes, you do. They are called falloff rigs. Rigs are cheaper to fit in terms of trad-offs than lows and meds. Deal with it. Then you'd also say Amarr cap is fine, you just need to fit a couple of CCC rigs? /sarcasm off Edit: Falloff rigs increase powergrid needs, which can lead to problems with grid-hungry artillery, also they tend to be fairly expensive. Apart from that, the point is that the tracking disruptor reduces falloff+optimal while its counterpart module only affects optimal. If you are fitting falloff mods onto artillery then you have more problems than getting tracking disrupted. However, if the argument was "there are no counters to neutralizers" then "fit CCC rigs" would be a legitimate answer.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Julius Romanus Yes, a TRACKING DISRUPTOR should SHUT DOWN <insert race here's> guns. Get used to it, because it's a beautiful thing when something finally works. Yes, it should. However a TRACKING COMPUTER should counter a tracking disruptor... which it does not for one race, Minmatar. -Liang No, all it means is that the counter is slightly different. Hell falloff rigs are better options than tracking computers because med slots and low slots are more valuable than rig slots.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:54:00 - [19] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Julius Romanus Yes, a TRACKING DISRUPTOR should SHUT DOWN <insert race here's> guns. Get used to it, because it's a beautiful thing when something finally works. Yes, it should. However a TRACKING COMPUTER should counter a tracking disruptor... which it does not for one race, Minmatar. -Liang No, all it means is that the counter is slightly different. Hell falloff rigs are better options than tracking computers because med slots and low slots are more valuable than rig slots. As I see it, most players fit falloff rigs as it is because they are the only reason that decent AC boats have become as effective as they are now, Now that webs can be overloaded, plus many other changes, the falloff rig is no longer a counter but near mandatory for normal play. A counter is something that you would normally only fit to "counter" something. Hence a AC boat would not normally fit a tracking computer. But if it had a falloff bonus then people may fit it to "counter" the new TD. Also No TD are not meant to shut down all turrets, Perhaps unbonused turrets with no modules or rigs fitted to counter the negative effects but then that's the issue isn't it. For AC's we don't have an effective counter and the optimal range is laughable so we can't fight in that.
Escobar Noreaga Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.03 09:27:00 - [20] Times are changin, adapt. if ya dont like said change then goto a different race, not that hard to do. Ive gone from Amaar > Caldari > Gall > back to Amaar > Minmatar soon. Self Proclaimed Man of many talents, but master at none. _________

Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.02.03 09:41:00 - [21] You know, perhaps given all the recent "movements" it is time to start thinking about training a reaaaaaaaally long skill...
joshmorris Silver Snake Enterprise SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:07:00 - [22] I support the op. If the tracking dis are buffed the tracking comps need to be/ or changed to counter. Uber idea solves all !!
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:17:00 - [23] Another script for a tracking computer might be an ok idea not sure about that. On the other hand: would you seriously put a tracking comp on say a vaga - like ever?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:40:00 - [24] Tbh with with the stupid 50% nerf to TCs, falloff rigs are most definitely an alternative if not even superior to tracking comps... Which I happen to find inherently wrong, modules should be stronger than rigs (which they were before CCP decided that TCs were omgwtfpwnoverpowered and cut their balls off...) There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2008.02.03 13:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon These are going to affect falloff. UNFORTUNATELY, Tracking Computers don't boost falloff. This means that minmatar, who rely 99% on falloff, have no means to counter tracking disruptors once they reduce falloff. If you expect minmatar to have any chance against someone with a tracking disruptor, give us the ability to counter it somehow. Yes, you do. They are called falloff rigs. Rigs are cheaper to fit in terms of trad-offs than lows and meds. Deal with it. Falloff rigs vs optimal rigs + a med slot module + a low slot module + remote boosting. You're not going to convince anyone that this is balanced. Also rigs CAN be cheaper I agree, but especially when there's a grid penalty involved and as long as polycarbs are better than the low slot mod it's a bit more complicated.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.03 13:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Julius Romanus Yes, a TRACKING DISRUPTOR should SHUT DOWN <insert race here's> guns. Get used to it, because it's a beautiful thing when something finally works. Yes, it should. However a TRACKING COMPUTER should counter a tracking disruptor... which it does not for one race, Minmatar. -Liang No it shouldnt, just like light ecm drones can jam a tier 3 battleship with overloaded eccm. Its balanced now. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 13:04:00 - [27] Unguided missiles should really be affected by TD's, cause as "un-guided" calculations are taking place into the ship's targeting computing, which TD's are aiming to bug the first place! Dmg or chance to hit should be lowered for unguided Torps/Rockets/HAMs. Ballistic contro units should also be "disrupted" for both guided and un-guided missiles, as the BCU description mention that it adds to guided missile efficiency due to better flight pre-calculation and analysis etc...that's also another "in-ship" thus disrupt-able operation. These changes could add some "anti-Missile" use to TD's with sufficient "scientifically" supported reasons.
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2008.02.03 13:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Wu Jiun Another script for a tracking computer might be an ok idea not sure about that. On the other hand: would you seriously put a tracking comp on say a vaga - like ever? Dunno about a tracking comp, but if tracking enhancers had falloff mod too, it might be an option for 2nd/3rd gyro since falloff on vaga is basically a damage mod, aswell as a counter against TD, not to forget you'd track better and gain a tiny % damage from the extra optimal too. Without running the numbers through tho it's hard to say. Though all this is pretty much a moot point, if the -falloff effect in TD is going to be -50% like the optimal effect, a vaga is going to be screwed like no other ship wether it has one or two +15% falloff mods/rigs on or not.
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2008.02.03 13:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Julius Romanus Yes, a TRACKING DISRUPTOR should SHUT DOWN <insert race here's> guns. Get used to it, because it's a beautiful thing when something finally works. Yes, it should. However a TRACKING COMPUTER should counter a tracking disruptor... which it does not for one race, Minmatar. -Liang No it shouldnt, just like light ecm drones can jam a tier 3 battleship with overloaded eccm. Its balanced now. Way to go comparing apples to oranges. Chance based system will always have stuff like that happening. Even at 1 billion sensor strength there's a tiny possibility of jam happening and then you could come to forums to whine about it while sounding like you either don't have a clue or just conveniently forget the nature of chance based events because it supports your trolling. TDs aren't chance based though, so what's your point?
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2008.02.03 13:36:00 - [30] Originally by: Nian Banks This buff to TD has massive implications for Minmatar, its going to effectively shut down all AC boats. Not a pleasant thought. Now its true TD's need this buff but lets be honest, do we really want to obsolete the only viable weapon the Minmatar have? How exactly is does "obsolete" it? You act like every single ship you encounter will have them and minmatar cannot fit them as well. The only ships where minmatar have to rely on the AC range are blaster ships, pulse lasers and short range missiles outrange ACs anyway, so you have to get close for these or flee. "But they have no ships with bonuses for them!" Right. But which ships with bonuses are there? - t1 and t2 amarr EW frigates TD do not effect drones in ANY way. 5 war2 on these (slow) pesky buggers and you have something to salvage - arbitrator Will be pretty dangeous to turret ships now, but more than a blackbird? Not really. Will be more vulnerable to drones as well and unlike it won't be able to counter EW. - pilgrim 4 words: 12k nos/neut range. The falloff reduction will not be of much use for it since it has to get close anyway. - curse Now that will benefit from them quite a bit. Dangerous ship now again. However, guess what: a properly setup huginn will kill a curse.



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