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Tenschu
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Posted - 2008.02.11 10:13:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Tenschu on 11/02/2008 10:13:34 BoB have an ace up their sleeve when it comes to financing the war, and that is one of the strongest Tech II BPO collections in the game. No tinfoil hat "Devs gave them the lot" collection either. Given the huge number of extreme veteran players they got into the T2 lottery early and have built up an excessive number of BPOs, financing their operations based upon the combined Empire sales of these items. We're talking tens of billions per month in sales here. More than enough to finance a huge, operational fighty-fight fleet.
This income has been curtailed of late due to their increasing loss of moon mining capability, but they will never ever be wiped out completely because they will never loose thier BPOs, they can always buy components off the market and manufacture in Empire and thus their revenue channels can never be destroyed.
And herein lies the rub. Anyone who thinks they will destroy BoB by taking Delve away from them is deluding themselves. Delve is a mere convenience to BoB, allowing them to solidify their powerbase, safely manufacture Supercaps and make even more ISK. If Delve is taken away then all we'll be left with is a rampaging uber-horde of nasties running amoc over the entire Eve map without a need to be based in any one particular region. And all along, they'll be financing this from the tens of thousands of Empire carebears who are buying their stuff.
Dunno about you but that scares the bejeezus out of me
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.11 10:18:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/02/2008 10:24:44
Originally by: Boid It's genuine curiosity more than anything else that has prompted me to post these questions, in full knowledge that posts that are neither from the usual clique nor from members of well known corporations are generally treated with derision and howls of, "Alt spotted!". Well, I'm not an alt, I'm truly neutral in the current war other than profiting from being an empire carebear; The demand for minerals is a wonderful thing.
I occasionally browse the killboards of the involved alliances and I find the losses in terms of isk absolutely staggering even on a daily basis, I can barely comprehend the accumulated cost over the course of an entire campaign. Just how damaging are these multi-billion losses on a daily basis to a large corporation? Is it a constant battle to replenish these losses or are they easily absorbed?
I can just about understand how the Coalition can manage, with easy access to all of the resources in EVE but even then such losses much surely hurt? How BoB manages to keep going is beyond me, I can only imagine that there are enormous stockpiles of ships and equipment. It's likely that I'm being incredibly naive in assuming these things are even a problem for either the Coalition or BoB and showing my complete lack of large corporation operations. I'm guessing that individual members of a corporation aren't expected to replace their own losses whilst fighting a war?
As I said, it's genuine curiosity that raises these questions, I'm fascinated by the logistics that must go into feeding a campaign of this magnitude.
I do enjoy reading the (factual, smack-free) battle reports and follow the war with interest. Keep up the good work!
P.S. If I had to pick a side then right now it would have to be BoB if for no other reason than I'm British, we always pick the underdog. Yes, realise this wasn't always the case, I'd have been supporting the other side then! What can I say, I'm fickle.
If you really must know, and I speak for myself even though I know a lot of people in my position, it is that we make so much isk in empire, that we could pvp 23/7 and still never run out of isk.
Again, I speak for myself, but for me 0.0 is just a battleground and not a isk factory. Therefore I can never go bankrupt.
I gave up making isk in 0.0 long ago as I would make more isk in empire semi afk than I ever did chaining 6/10 plex's in delve. Seriously. And I dont mine or rat. Thats the slowest way to make isk to be honest.
Now imagine a alliance with hundreds of people like me, who are impossible to bankrupt. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Cippalippus Primus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 10:36:00 -
[33]
Wars in 0.0 aren't about depleting the opponent's income, but its will to fight. Unless it's some kind of carebear alliance, of course... -clp
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Tenschu
Amarr TerraDyne Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.11 10:40:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Cippalippus Primus Wars in 0.0 aren't about depleting the opponent's income, but its will to fight. Unless it's some kind of carebear alliance, of course...
I disagree with this. Wars in 0.0 are about whatever the combatants want it to be about. For some it is epeen measurement and bragging rights. For BoB it is all about their killboard and precious little else. There's a reason why they have one fo the oldest and best updated killboards in the game, you know. BoB have the continuous isk source to make sure they constantly have more "stuff" (i.e. killmails) to place on their killboard so I highly doubt they will ever be defeated on their terms, only on those terms dictated by those who fight them. |
KIATolon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 10:47:00 -
[35]
If this were true their numbers wouldn't have dropped by between a half and a 2/3 during all time zones.
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Tenschu
Amarr TerraDyne Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.11 10:53:00 -
[36]
Mebbe, but the fleet engagements on their killboard seem to be around the same size.
Anyway, wasn't this thread about financing, not participation? |
7sunami
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.11 10:57:00 -
[37]
the war helps reduce inflation in eve
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Cippalippus Primus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 10:57:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tenschu
Originally by: Cippalippus Primus Wars in 0.0 aren't about depleting the opponent's income, but its will to fight. Unless it's some kind of carebear alliance, of course...
I disagree with this. Wars in 0.0 are about whatever the combatants want it to be about. For some it is epeen measurement and bragging rights. For BoB it is all about their killboard and precious little else. There's a reason why they have one fo the oldest and best updated killboards in the game, you know. BoB have the continuous isk source to make sure they constantly have more "stuff" (i.e. killmails) to place on their killboard so I highly doubt they will ever be defeated on their terms, only on those terms dictated by those who fight them.
This is nonsense. No one wins or loses on his own terms, otherwise no one would ever lose. I could claim that my defeat is something over which the enemy has no control, IE closing my EVE subscription, and then I'd stay undefeated. The same of course goes for BoB. -clp
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Giant Diablo
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.02.11 11:01:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Shadowsword Well, on one side, you have Bob, who most often than not gets to recover the loots on the battlefield, supported by thousands of alts grinding missions/trading/proding in empire to support their mains (dual account is a requirement in at least several bob corps). And they had a lot of stockpiled stuff.
On the other side, so many players than, in absolute terms, their cumulative income is much greater than Bob's, and who can also, to some extent, rotate their presence on the front. Basically, the coalition can afford to throw fleets after fleets after fleets at Bob, if it allow them to conquer systems. And time gradually increase the coalition's advantages, as it reduce the gap in FC quality, capital fleet size and skill points.
Nice analysis and a good post that i agree with totally. And is also nice to see almost no smack in this topic
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Hannobaal
Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 11:07:00 -
[40]
Originally by: 7sunami the war helps reduce inflation in eve
Actually, on the contrary. It fuels it.
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olzi
Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.11 11:23:00 -
[41]
Atleast on the Goonswarm side, the player base is largely supported by 0.0 and its resources. So while the the damages are taken on the individual level, so are the rewards of better 0.0 space. In the end you fly what you can afford to lose, and when your ship explodes you either retreat to make some isk or dip into your wallet.
On both sides you have alliances with thousands of players, so some rotation can happen.
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Tenschu
Amarr TerraDyne Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.11 12:02:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Cippalippus Primus This is nonsense. No one wins or loses on his own terms, otherwise no one would ever lose. I could claim that my defeat is something over which the enemy has no control, IE closing my EVE subscription, and then I'd stay undefeated. The same of course goes for BoB.
OK maybe I should clarify.
BoB's capability to play the game in the manner in which they wish to play it is not going to be significantly hampered by losing Delve, simply because their ISK generating capabilities will not be destroyed. They'll not be able to make as many super-caps (but how many people are selling motherships now?) and that's about it. So although I dare say that the coalition will declare themselves to have won, BoB will not actually end up being quite as knee-capped as they would like to believe.
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Kaaii
Caldari PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.02.11 12:24:00 -
[43]
109...
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
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Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.02.11 12:31:00 -
[44]
NO BLOOD FOR VELDSPAR!
We've lulled our opponents into a false sense of confidence. Oh, yes. Everything is going according to plan. Those fools, they think they can win... by winning. |
Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 12:36:00 -
[45]
we spend enough isk on fuel every week to buy a titan with
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.02.11 13:41:00 -
[46]
Blah blah bobbitses.
Last time i checked fully fitted ships do not spring up at the station when you dock. I am fairly confident that has not changed since DT today so no amount of empire isk hoarding cannot help you when there is no ships for sale on the whole Delve market. Since one needs to buy and outfit a new ship closest to the frontlines possible and that cannot be done in Delve atm if Goons are doing their job you are screwed. Camping logistical routes will prove a very good deterent and the will to fight will cease very soon. We can see the logistical train has stopped since Molle is on vacation along with some others. As always empire huggers wont be able to save 0.0 players even if both are owned by the same RL person ;) Since hauling ships from empire where you bought them should be dangerous business. If not, goons should step up the pressure. You will run out of ships real soon. Those that havent already.
The key is a good market or good corp policies.
As always, best isk is in exploits one can keep for himself as some Bobbit hinted previously using other words to describe. I wish i knew about one or two but i never do :( -------------SIG STARTS HERE------------- Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage. |
Centauris
Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.11 13:48:00 -
[47]
Most killboards will have links ot specific campaigns, have a look there and it will tell you a very very "accurate" figure. Just like BOB's K/D ratio.
Thundercats 4 Life |
HEY LISTEN
i swear this is true
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Posted - 2008.02.11 14:12:00 -
[48]
Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 11/02/2008 14:13:30
Originally by: Tenschu
Originally by: Cippalippus Primus This is nonsense. No one wins or loses on his own terms, otherwise no one would ever lose. I could claim that my defeat is something over which the enemy has no control, IE closing my EVE subscription, and then I'd stay undefeated. The same of course goes for BoB.
OK maybe I should clarify.
BoB's capability to play the game in the manner in which they wish to play it is not going to be significantly hampered by losing Delve, simply because their ISK generating capabilities will not be destroyed. They'll not be able to make as many super-caps (but how many people are selling motherships now?) and that's about it. So although I dare say that the coalition will declare themselves to have won, BoB will not actually end up being quite as knee-capped as they would like to believe.
Dude you will never get a goon to admit that they cannot win against bob so do not bother to try. Although considering goons history with bob and the fact that they were as destroyed as you can get in eve id say they realy underestimate what it takes to actualy win if it is at all possable.
What will proly happen is that goons will declare victory when they take all of bobs stations and bob will argue the point that they are still here, much like goons vs bob in the past although the situation will be reversed.
Personaly id be glad if they both died and left the game as bob was way too arrogant and goons ruin and screw up the game with their lemming style tactics and they also brag about that they wish to destroy the game or at least the enjoyment of other ppl playing it.
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Boid
Gallente Weirdwood
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Posted - 2008.02.11 14:27:00 -
[49]
Thanks for all the replies, some really interesting reads. It does sounds as though isk will never really be a problem for a half decent corporation or alliance. I guess the logistics of converting that isk to ships and modules and getting that hardware to where it needs to be is by far the greater issue.
Anyway, it seems the thread is wandering somewhat off topic now. Probably best to let it die when it's content is still somewhat pertinent to the topic.
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duckmonster
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 15:00:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Centauris Most killboards will have links ot specific campaigns, have a look there and it will tell you a very very "accurate" figure. Just like BOB's K/D ratio.
I like your bee Centauris -----------
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Gloomy Gus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 15:56:00 -
[51]
Many of Goonfleet's POS costs are taken care of by Jake Noble as we tend to take them as often as break them. However besides dreads and supercaps, most hardware bills are footed by the individual. For me that comes to about 50mil per fight, as I lose an Abaddon almost every time and t1 fitted an Abaddon costs me about 50mil for the insurance and the insurance at platinum covers hull and cheap hardware.
Since I fly my Armageddons tII it costs about the same either way. LV's old space can generate that kind of isk easily between fights.
Originally by: JakeNoble well id just like to say kilz is an epic****got plz
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Seth Quantix
Domination.
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Posted - 2008.02.11 15:58:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 11/02/2008 01:39:43
the mental age of Sirmolle,
quote]
Hey look the French are smacking...............Turning into your goon masters!!
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Hrin
Minmatar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 18:35:00 -
[53]
What is with this perception that BoB is somehow special? No, they will do what every other beaten alliance does and disintegrate. There is no special bond holding them together. The forum warriors don't seem to understand what those of us fighting BoB do. Today's BoB is a farce. The majority of BoB are from such failed alliances as LV, RISE, and FIX. Most of BoB I see in local have been in the alliance for only a few months. The long time members don't log in (on vacation) or have left the alliance to be replaced with scrubs.
BoB's propaganda machine is quite something though. Its propped them up for years and saved them from any real challenge.
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Bartolomeo Colleoni
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.11 18:44:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Boid Thanks for all the replies, some really interesting reads. It does sounds as though isk will never really be a problem for a half decent corporation or alliance. I guess the logistics of converting that isk to ships and modules and getting that hardware to where it needs to be is by far the greater issue.
Reminds me of the saying "Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics."
BTW good interesting topic.
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Nocturnal Avenger
The Ankou The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2008.02.11 19:40:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Zinrix It would if this were a job and not a game. Part of the enjoyment is the possibility of dying. The risk makes it worth playing. The people who lose the most are generally the people who play the most. Whenever you go into a fleet fight, you have the likelihood of dying, but if you don't PVP and you stay in empire, you don't have any fun.
I endorse this product and/or statement.
- Carebear Pirate - |
HEY LISTEN
i swear this is true
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Posted - 2008.02.11 22:38:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Hrin What is with this perception that BoB is somehow special? No, they will do what every other beaten alliance does and disintegrate. There is no special bond holding them together. The forum warriors don't seem to understand what those of us fighting BoB do. Today's BoB is a farce. The majority of BoB are from such failed alliances as LV, RISE, and FIX. Most of BoB I see in local have been in the alliance for only a few months. The long time members don't log in (on vacation) or have left the alliance to be replaced with scrubs.
BoB's propaganda machine is quite something though. Its propped them up for years and saved them from any real challenge.
Theres plenty of alliances with a new name and even some with their old name that lost their space and regained some either elsewhere or in their original systems.
Goons lost to bob but sat around in npc stations or behind others, recruited like mad, napped most of eve, got a nerf or two and are now the pain in eves ass once again that they were before.
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Orebuster
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 22:50:00 -
[57]
Originally by: HEY LISTEN
Goons lost to bob but sat around in npc stations or behind others, recruited like mad, napped most of eve, got a nerf or two and are now the pain in eves ass once again that they were before.
I would suggest we are much larger pains than we were before.
To the OPs' question, what price can you put on liberty? How much isk is too much to spend on freedom? The shackles which BoB put on many Eve pilots have been shattered, and space will soon be as it was intended to be, held by those who have the wherewithal to hold it, fought for by those who have the testicular fortitude to fight for it, and cherished by those whose ships and treasure have gone to winning it.
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Kilostream
Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.11 23:27:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Kilostream on 11/02/2008 23:29:28
Originally by: Tenschu ....rampaging uber-horde of nasties....
They aren't doing a whole lot of rampaging at the moment, mate - and as for the t2 bpo collection - the greatest chunk of isk that will make them has already been made.
Invention means anyone can be a t2 producer now and although on an individual level one guy with a few negative-ME bpc's can't compete with a bpo owner, cumulative over-supply from hundreds (or thousands) of inventors has seen prices drop and the racketeering has come to an end - BPO owners can still make isk from their BPO's, but not on anything like the scale seen pre-invention.
That and the fact that we [the coalition] are systematically dismantling their moon mining pos chains is hitting them in the wallet hard. Of course you are right, losing Delve would not necessarily guarantee the end of BoB, but don't kid yourself it's "nothing more than a mere convenience" to them - it's a f*****g gold mine!
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Junkie Beverage
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.11 23:53:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Semkhet The peeps who think that entities like BoB can be wiped off by taking away its current territory are deeply deluded. The game mechanics simply do not allow the loss of territory to translate into significant resource gains for the winner since at these scales, a single fleet battle can commonly represent losses requiring mining a dyspro moon for almost 3 years due to the limits of insurance coverage.
That vs a merry band of vets using multisubs and a stash of T2 BPO's which represent an income stream which can't be neither stopped nor controlled since minerals and precursors are fungible goods.
So me quietly laugh at those expecting the end of BoB. If BoB ends it will be due to endogenous causes like mismanagement, lack of leadership or cohesion, and not for things like possible circumstantial military setbacks facing overwhelming numbers or loosing control of a 0.0 backyard. Social engineering against their leadership would be far more effective than the current brute force approach.
Besides, I would be delighted to know how the distinguished Coalition strategists think to cope on the long run with a BoB untied from estates. That day BoB will regain the privilege of choosing where, when and who they engage, without risking anything else than the assets thrown in battles, while Coalition members will only have achieved to exhaust trillion of isk in the current war while drawing nice red crosshairs on their beloved new POS'es networks
where is lv these days anyway i never see those guys around anymore
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Annaliese Witschak
Galgorth's Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.11 23:54:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Annaliese Witschak on 11/02/2008 23:54:35 I've seen LV in empire. --- Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. |
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