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Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 14:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
There are some fundamental problems with democracy.
Tribes or groups of people will vote for a particular person associated with them.
For example, in South Africa, the Zulus, which is the largest group always vote for the ANC party which comprises of people from their tribe. They will even vote in a new leader who has forcefully removed the previous leader before the end of his term and is up on corruption, arms dealing and indecent assault charges prior to the election.
Null sec voting blocks.
Your control as a voter is usually an illusion.
Even in the best of conditions, your choices narrow down to only a few candidates that are usually chosen for you. You do not get to elect the entire bureaucracy, who make the day to day decisions. You have no recourse if those people do not follow through with their promises and have only told you what you wanted to hear. There is no "neither" option on the ballots.
CCP developers and the CSM system.
Money and propaganda machines.
There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.
Charisma is not the same as aptitude.
Politicians are not required to undergo IQ or personality tests. They do not have to write particular exams or prove their competency. All they simply have to do is convince you to vote for them.
Alliance or corporation leader are not necessarily good CSM material.
Tangents
There seems to be a growing tendency to destroy high security and worm hole space. There seems to be large vocal groups who instead of working as people to improve their social groups or to get their area of space made better for them, seek only to sabotage the other options so that people are left with no other choice than to go out there and be slaughtered as victims.
I would like to see areas being improved for the people that are there and enjoy that play style instead of breaking things to force others there.
There are some individuals that you might think are okay or that you like but have a look at the groups that they lead. They wouldn't be leading them if they were not liked and are similar to those people. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
594
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Posted - 2012.02.15 14:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well said
Also:
Quote:the iron law of oligarchy if you know what i mean |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
18
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Posted - 2012.02.15 14:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Stll, there is no better alternative to democracy, except a dictatorship with me as the dictator. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 14:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Stll, there is no better alternative to democracy, except a dictatorship with me as the dictator.
There is. You simply need to look at the weaknesses of a system then look at improvements. For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election
There are theoretical systems that have not been tried yet. One reason being that they threaten the way that democracy currently controls people while giving them a placebo "feel good" affect. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
18
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote:For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election And who is going to ensure that, and on whose authority? |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
1148
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? Vote Two step for CSM 7 CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
i, for one, am disgusted that in this Massively Multiplayer game the system for input favors those who can make friends, instead of friendless aspies |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
123
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:There are some fundamental problems with democracy.
Tribes or groups of people will vote for a particular person associated with them.
Null sec voting blocks. Please add (for CSM) to your topic and then I will give you a like so you can run on in this democratic and transparent election.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
441
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Quote:For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election And who is going to ensure that, and on whose authority?
"Who watches the watchers?" Public records and whistle blowing systems? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
54
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Large alliances are made up of people with the same goals and ideals. People vote for someone who shares their goals and ideals. If I didn't agree with the goals and ideals of The Mittani I'd be in a different alliance. If fewer people agreed with the goals and ideals of The Mittani his alliance would be smaller. How is this difficult? |
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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:Quote:For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election And who is going to ensure that, and on whose authority? "Who watches the watchers?" Public records and whistle blowing systems? i have reviewed your posts and determined you are incompetent to offer advice or opinions, and most especially to vote
please cease doing so at once |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
594
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Two step wrote:What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? exception proves the rule |
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate Initiative Mercenaries
46
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Someone famous once said that democracy is the werst form of government...except for the all the other forms. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: ... and propaganda machines.
... shout louder than anyone else.
Alliances ... dedicate people to forums ...
Interesting, is it not; how the Goons piled onto this thread? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
there are few dumber posts than "look! the goons are posting in my thread! this means something!" |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked
you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:... because nobody likes you
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Charisma is not the same as aptitude..
Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Telegram Sam
The Drones Club
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:i, for one, am disgusted that in this Massively Multiplayer game the system for input favors those who can make friends, instead of friendless aspies An interesting point, mate. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:... because nobody likes you Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Charisma is not the same as aptitude.. why would you care any more than you would care if telepathy was different from telekenesis, they're both academic questions to you |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
waaah waaah aspie tears, let's nerf democracy because nobody likes me |
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: ... and propaganda machines.
... shout louder than anyone else.
Alliances ... dedicate people to forums ...
Interesting, is it not; how the Goons piled onto this thread?
It's true, we can't resist taunting a raging sperg. Especially a self-quoting one. This is just too good.
Cry more tears about how you want to nerf democracy because people you don't like vote differently than you do.
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Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
48
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Posted - 2012.02.15 15:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked
you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you
An aspie is one who has Asperger's Syndrome, which is believed to be part of the autism spectrum. Aspies, while being quite gifted verbally, have social, emotional, and sensory integration difficulties, among others.
Sounds like the perfect Goon leadership. But you already knew that.
You and Mittens and many other Goons love to use the Aspie reply a lot. Is that because you get confronted with it daily when looking in the mirror?
The only perfect Goon reply on the forums is when they insult people, drag their points of vieuw to the Goongutter, ridicule those who despise the whole thing Goons stand for. You Goons sound like the perfect Aspie cases yourself if you look at the very definition.
Johnny Marzetti wrote: It's true, we can't resist taunting a raging sperg. Especially a self-quoting one. This is just too good.
Cry more tears about how you want to nerf democracy because people you don't like vote differently than you do.
Ah, Sperg, another shortcut for Aspie or also know as Asperger's Syndrome.
Think this proves my previous statement even more. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
did you seriously reach into your big bag of retorts and only come up with a wordy "i know you are but what am I"?
come on man put some effort into it |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
you post as well as white noise defends branch |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote: The only perfect Goon reply on the forums is when they insult people, drag their points of vieuw to the Goongutter, ridicule those who despise the whole thing Goons stand for. You Goons sound like the perfect Aspie cases yourself if you look at the very definition.
While I agree with you. It is not limited to Goons. People resort to attacking the person writing or saying something in the hopes that it will make that go away. They do not have the capacity to discuss it or refute it in a clear and coherent manner.
As per usual, they are desperate for attention and seeking an emotional response.
Goons will flood a thread and drown out other peoples' points of view if it in any way threatens them or their interests. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 15:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked
you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you An aspie is one who has Asperger's Syndrome, which is believed to be part of the autism spectrum. Aspies, while being quite gifted verbally, have social, emotional, and sensory integration difficulties, among others.Sounds like the perfect Goon leadership. But you already knew that. You and Mittens and many other Goons love to use the Aspie reply a lot. Is that because you get confronted with it daily when looking in the mirror? The only perfect Goon reply on the forums is when they insult people, drag their points of vieuw to the Goongutter, ridicule those who despise the whole thing Goons stand for. You Goons sound like the perfect Aspie cases yourself if you look at the very definition. Johnny Marzetti wrote: It's true, we can't resist taunting a raging sperg. Especially a self-quoting one. This is just too good.
Cry more tears about how you want to nerf democracy because people you don't like vote differently than you do.
Ah, Sperg, another shortcut for Aspie or also know as Asperger's Syndrome. Think this proves my previous statement even more.
Your rebuttal is literally sperging out about the definition of aspie.
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Boris Lachenkov
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 16:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Null sec voting blocks. The people we get behind are usually the social ones with a good sense of how to work in a team with others in the CSM, an understanding of problem solving and articulate enough to talk about it to CCP and other CSMs. As I'll mention later, we don't just vote for the most social sperg in the pool, we vote on who we want. I voted for Walter Stine, not Dovinian but since Dovi won he will get all my support and photoshopping power. So why is it weird that we get behind people we know and talk to instead of someone that we've never seen/talked to?
CCP developers and the CSM system. Well, yes. Of course it is undemocratic, a game designed by vote is silly and terrible. It wastes an immense amount of time, talent and skill. If this game were designed by a vote I think we would probably see mini-dreadnoughts everywhere with smartbombing freighters -.- (Yes I exaggerate and jest)
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable. I can pay -ú14 a month and skill be viable on the forums and I don't even need to play the actual game. Alliance leaders sometimes go months without even being inside the game, why would they need to? We have forums and other communication channels to work in tandem with, or in spite of, being in the game. Alliances with a huge amount of money would probably go more towards spy accounts or people who actually need to be in the game.
I don't think anyone has a budget in their alliance for "forum warriors"
Alliance or corporation leader are not necessarily good CSM material. No, they aren't. Thankfully we can weed out the insane/terrible posters and vote ourselves for who we want to get behind. It's not like we go "LOLPICKMONTOLIO HE RUNS OUR ALLIANCE". I doubt the goons did either, Mittani is a good poster who knows the game and is well spoken enough to articulate his answers/solutions into meaningful ideas. If Montolio could do that as well I guess we would be getting behind him, rather then Dovinian (Beep beep).
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Jenshae Chiroptera
441
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 17:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
Boris Lachenkov wrote:... The people we get behind are usually the social ones with ...
Again, I repeat that being social does not mean that you are most competent for the job.
Mittens and most politicians say what ever appeals to the lowest common denominator. He is harping on about how CSM went to an emergency meeting. There would not have been a meeting without the riots and revoked subscriptions in the first place. They didn't have to say anything special, just repeat what was already all over the game and forums.
High sec, low sec and worm hole space by their very nature tend to create a multitude of smaller groups. This fragmentation means that it is far less probable that there will be anyone taking up a position to protect their interests. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
22
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 17:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Democracy has never been done as it is a practical impossibility just as most other governing systems .. hence the titles of "theories".
For it to work every voter would need knowledge/understanding of everything which is never going to happen, especially not in this day and age with science doing its thing. Most societies have opted for an approximation where representatives are elected based on their knowledge (or claim thereof) of whatever topic is closest to the voter.
Vote with you mind rather than your heart and it will be mostly OK(ish) .. in Eve terms, opt for a candidate that has the health of the game as a whole (or a large portion) as a priority rather than just his/her backyard. Sadly even that will probably not do any good for us non-blocs as the backyard is filled with the bastard children of unholy unions twixt many of the current CSM and they all get a vote .. but as in real life .. YOU MUST VOTE OR FORFEIT THE RIGHT TO ***** AND MOAN AFTERWARDS! |
Boris Lachenkov
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 17:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Boris Lachenkov wrote:... The people we get behind are usually the social ones with ... Again, I repeat that being social does not mean that you are most competent for the job. Mittens and most politicians say what ever appeals to the lowest common denominator. He is harping on about how CSM went to an emergency meeting. There would not have been a meeting without the riots and revoked subscriptions in the first place. They didn't have to say anything special, just repeat what was already all over the game and forums. High sec, low sec and worm hole space by their very nature tend to create a multitude of smaller groups. This fragmentation means that it is far less probable that there will be anyone taking up a position to protect their interests.
Way to completely take the quote out of context, let me bold that for you:
Boris Lachenkov wrote:The people we get behind are usually the social ones with a good sense of how to work in a team with others in the CSM, an understanding of problem solving and articulate enough to talk about it to CCP and other CSMs
So you see that I'm agreeing with you. Social skill does not trump the deck when thinking of candidates but it is still an important skill that you will need. It doesn't matter how fantastic you understand the game if you alienate everyone and can't communicate any of your ideas. Great in-depth game knowledge does not mean you are competent for the job either, it's only by uniting these skills can you actually win at EVE.
If he put forward the idea of an emergency meeting and CCP didn't want to then he can harp on about all he wants, he took the right action in reaction to the riots. Or are you saying that the CSM caused the riots?
And I agree that small communities breed small numbers of possible candidates, but a good CSM will actually be able to understand the current situation of everyone in a objective manner. That's what makes it so tough to actually pick someone that will push a universal agenda for people and not what they 'think' is wrong with their particular end of the game. |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
228
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Two step wrote:What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? exception proves the rule
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 17:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Boris Lachenkov wrote:... The people we get behind are usually the social ones with ... Again, I repeat that being social does not mean that you are most competent for the job. Mittens and most politicians say what ever appeals to the lowest common denominator. He is harping on about how CSM went to an emergency meeting. There would not have been a meeting without the riots and revoked subscriptions in the first place. They didn't have to say anything special, just repeat what was already all over the game and forums. High sec, low sec and worm hole space by their very nature tend to create a multitude of smaller groups. This fragmentation means that it is far less probable that there will be anyone taking up a position to protect their interests.
No, your unwillingness to organize those groups is what causes that. Nothing is stopping your leaders from uniting behind a common cause, putting their egos aside, and making one of their own not just a CSM member but the chairman. You have the numbers. And considering what the job for the CSM actually is (hint, it's not about being a game designer, it's about communication), being social is extremely important to being competent for the job.
It's not like this is a surprise election. You've had as many years as there's been CSMs to prepare for this election. But now you're crying foul, and unsurprisingly it's falling on deaf ears. Did you expect your opponents to do all your legwork for you?
Why don't you stop your whining and start preparing for CSM8? You'll have a year to get ready. Goons do not plan that far in advance.
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.02.15 17:48:00 -
[33] - Quote
P.S. I'm saying all these things knowing that you won't actually do them and I'll get to quote them back to you next year when you post the same tearful complaint about the unfairness of it all. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 17:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Boris Lachenkov wrote:... The people we get behind are usually the social ones with ... Again, I repeat that being social does not mean that you are most competent for the job. Mittens and most politicians say what ever appeals to the lowest common denominator. He is harping on about how CSM went to an emergency meeting. There would not have been a meeting without the riots and revoked subscriptions in the first place. They didn't have to say anything special, just repeat what was already all over the game and forums. High sec, low sec and worm hole space by their very nature tend to create a multitude of smaller groups. This fragmentation means that it is far less probable that there will be anyone taking up a position to protect their interests.
Actually, in a job like this, being social really, REALLY does mean a lot more than whatever your definition of competency is. The entire job is social, be it talking regularly with the other CSM reps or directly with CCP. How on earth is someone without social skills supposed to be effective at all, let alone preferable?
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 17:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
Why do they keep firing me from these cruise ship activity director jobs when I know the schedule better than anybody? Just because I stand there staring down at my shoes while I shuffle my feet and mumble at the passengers, jeez, it's like they expect some kind of social butterfly for this job. Unfair labor practices!!! |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
150
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 18:30:00 -
[36] - Quote
Democracy is more than just yourself
Democracy includes EVERYONE for it to work, depsite diffferences.
Thinking that democracy is "not" about personality is a bit ridiculous I have to say. As you need to vote for someone who is representing the ideas you believe in and representing them well to be most effective. The key thing about your voting is deciding both what ideas you want represented and whom from the list of options will most acheive them in your opinion. As such you need to look at a person's achievements, what they stand for and how they present themselves to see wether they are an advocate of efficacy you want to empower.
(I'm actualy suprised the OP didn't include Arrow's paradox into the debate however.) |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
898
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Posted - 2012.02.15 19:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
So it is not pretty watching the sausage of democracy being made but it produces a tastier meal than most of the alternatives when spiced liberally with some freedom and responsibility.
I agree in Eve we may not get the CSM we want but we do get the CSM we deserve. If the majority of Eve chooses apathy over participation then they have only themselves to blame if eventually they are herded by Concord after their 3rd week in Eve to a random null system to be 'sploded as part of the "end game".
Since this is the system in place we have only a few choices.
1. Apathy. Welcome our new evil overlords and smile while they dish it out.
2. Get involved, try and change the result from within the system. Hard work, maybe impossible as a result of the physics of cat herds, but some would say the best choice.
3. Change the system. Make your case to CCP! Organize some massive statue deaths in highly visible spaces. Drop your subscription in protest. Noble to be sure. Unlikely to succeed once again due to the physics of unaffiliated cats.
So I agree with the OPs frustration. But I'm choosing #2. Let me at those windmills! My inner optimist says sometimes carebears and disaffected masses can unite, even if it was behind the wrong spork wielding assassin wannabe. I hold out hope against all logic that the slumbering masses might wake briefly and accidentally vote for someone that would represent them on their way to the refrigerator for that late night piece of roe pie and quafe snack.
Well presented case OP, I just have to try and be more optimistic.
Issler |
Jenshae Chiroptera
441
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 19:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:P.S. I'm saying all these things ... You are trapped in an assumption.
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Thinking that democracy is "not" about personality is a bit ridiculous I have to say. I am not redefining democracy, I am suggesting that it is probably not the best system.
Boris Lachenkov wrote: Social skill does not trump the deck when thinking of candidates but it is still an important skill that you will need.
(I tend to {snip} quote people in order to show where I am directing my response.)
I can agree that being able to communicate effectively is one skill that CSM would need. However, as it stands, CCP are getting a group of people best suited for public relations not those who would would be able to filter information and give them the best over all direction.
"Giving players what they want is exactly what you do not want."
Look at each of the CSM candidates. They have personal agendas and they are saying what will appeal to as many people as possible. "Hehe, he is funny I will vote for him." "That one wants the same win button as I do!"
They are short sighted and won't be helping to arbitrate with CCP what is best for the game in general. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
None ofthe Above
63
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Posted - 2012.02.15 19:55:00 -
[39] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Two step wrote:What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? exception proves the rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule
Thank you for posting. It drives me crazy when people use this to avoid looking at data rationally. Most misunderstood idiom.
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
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Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
168
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Posted - 2012.02.15 20:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:P.S. I'm saying all these things ... You are trapped in an assumption. Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Thinking that democracy is "not" about personality is a bit ridiculous I have to say. I am not redefining democracy, I am suggesting that it is probably not the best system. Boris Lachenkov wrote: Social skill does not trump the deck when thinking of candidates but it is still an important skill that you will need. (I tend to {snip} quote people in order to show where I am directing my response.) I can agree that being able to communicate effectively is one skill that CSM would need. However, as it stands, CCP are getting a group of people best suited for public relations not those who would would be able to filter information and give them the best over all direction. "Giving players what they want is exactly what you do not want." Look at each of the CSM candidates. They have personal agendas and they are saying what will appeal to as many people as possible. "Hehe, he is funny I will vote for him." "That one wants the same win button as I do!" They are short sighted and won't be helping to arbitrate with CCP what is best for the game in general.
Your points seem more attributable to the fact you dont like how people choose to vote and that you don't like certain candidates methods. That in itself is not suffcient cause to suggest it is a problem in the elective system.
If I can be so bold can I suggest redirecting energies where they are needed to apply purpose to your cause. Which for an effective solution will in some way be related to voter education on ideas, providing or promoting an alternative candidacy option or reducing apathy and ignorance to issues.
In essence complaining about the system we have is pretty pointless other than an intellectual exercise and you could focus your time with much more productive and integral methods. I would also personally say that to work with people in a process than against them will offer more integrity to your views, but I'll leave it up to you wether the fight for radical change is worth it. If so I would start offering ideas to alternative solutions rather than criticism.
"All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems." |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
442
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 20:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:... Your points seem more attributable to the fact you dont like how people choose to vote and that you don't like certain candidates methods. .. Hopefully this thread is serving to generate questions in peoples' minds about what would be best and to look a bit closer at motives. I doubt it matters. People will protest it loudly but they will not want to accept how easily they are manipulated.
The design of the system produces particular results. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
168
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 20:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:... Your points seem more attributable to the fact you dont like how people choose to vote and that you don't like certain candidates methods. .. Hopefully this thread is serving to generate questions in peoples' minds about what would be best and to look a bit closer at motives. I doubt it matters. People will protest it loudly but they will not want to accept how easily they are manipulated. The design of the system produces particular results.
Please don't remove the possibility that erroneous methods can also conspire to cement views you wish to change.
"All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems." |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 20:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
Democracy is a sham: A low-comedic dumb-show to keep the masses placated and believing that they actually matter.
Always was, always will be, and one I've long since ceased to believe in--it does, however, make for great entertainment! Hey, "Bread and Circuses" works, no-one who has even the most basic understanding of human nature can deny that!
Proof:
The actual actions/track-record of the (post-1994) government in the OP's home country, among many, many other similar actions in many, many other countries. (BTW, has Julius Malema been hauled away in chains yet as he so richly deserves?)
Wither merit? And more importantly, how can we ensure that only those who prove superior merit ascend?
Oh, and don't you just adore the Goonies' current meme of using an utterly disgusting and offensive trivialisation of/attacks on people with a legitimate behavioural/social problem to try and shout-down anyone saying anything they don't happen to like. Do any of you idiots even know what Asperger's Syndrome is? Nice institutionalised ad hominem, bru...
You stay classy, Goonies: Show all those huddled masses of inferior "pubbies" (whatever those are) how it's done at the highest levels! Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Mintrolio
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
291
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 20:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
CONFRIMIGN I AM AGRE WITH SOMETHING HEAR AND DISAGRE WITH OTHRE THING HEAR.
ALSO ONLY REALS OPTION IST TO VOTIGN FUR MINTROLIO, VOICE OF RAISIN, KEEPER OF GOAT AND THE ONLY OTHRE MAJOR CANDATE TO BE IN CSM ELECSIONS PROCCESS. MINTROLIO FUR CSM7 |
Jenshae Chiroptera
442
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 20:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Wither merit? And more importantly, how can we ensure that only those who prove superior merit ascend?
Aptitude and personality testing. I don't reside in South Africa. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 20:49:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Wither merit? And more importantly, how can we ensure that only those who prove superior merit ascend? Aptitude and personality testing. I don't reside in South Africa.
The French do this, I believe, or at least they used to?
To get certain government jobs, you have to take courses and sit exams, not just on entry, but throughout your career and upon being considered for promotion, IIRC.
Are you from SA, though? Sounds like it.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 20:51:00 -
[47] - Quote
Mintrolio wrote:CONFRIMIGN I AM AGRE WITH SOMETHING HEAR AND DISAGRE WITH OTHRE THING HEAR.
ALSO ONLY REALS OPTION IST TO VOTIGN FUR MINTROLIO, VOICE OF RAISIN, KEEPER OF GOAT AND THE ONLY OTHRE MAJOR CANDATE TO BE IN CSM ELECSIONS PROCCESS.
I propose that we all pitch in to get Mintrollio a new keyboard! With a working caps-lock key.
E: Grrrrrrrr...Windows Explorer crashed on me, again--right, re-booting, and then back to playing with the Goon-puppets! Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2075
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 20:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
Quote:(Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
so :shobon:, so idealistic yeah no i'm not actually running for csm7
got you lol!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Jenshae Chiroptera
442
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 21:00:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:I propose that we all pitch in to get Mintrollio a new keyboard! With a workingNO caps-lock key. Fixed.
Lyrrashae wrote: The French do this, I believe, or at least they used to?
Even in the cases where some exams are taken, they usually rely on political "science", history and such. You still end up with Misters of transport who are too busy reading a newspaper while being chauffeur driven to know what traffic is like and have no idea how to even change a tire.
Bush senior and junior, Clintons, the Kennedys, "old boys' club" of England and so forth. The systems are being played like a well tuned instrument.
One of the problems is that usually the people who most desire the job and will jump through all the hoops to get it usually are the worst people for it. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 21:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:I propose that we all pitch in to get Mintrollio a new keyboard! With a workingNO caps-lock key. Fixed. Lyrrashae wrote: The French do this, I believe, or at least they used to?
Well, I'm just saying his caps-lock key is probably broken after all the abuse he's put it through
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Even in the cases where some exams are taken, they usually rely on political "science", history and such. You still end up with Misters of transport who are too busy reading a newspaper while being chauffeur driven to know what traffic is like and have no idea how to even change a tire.
Bush senior and junior, Clintons, the Kennedys, "old boys' club" of England and so forth. The systems are being played like a well tuned instrument.
One of the problems is that usually the people who most desire the job and will jump through all the hoops to get it usually are the worst people for it.
^^And, this...It's axiomatic, practically.
So where do we find the most reluctant of leaders, and how to convince them that they need to step up? Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
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Jenshae Chiroptera
444
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 21:44:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:... So where do we find the most reluctant of leaders, and how to convince them that they need to step up?
Psychometric testing while they are still in the education system and before they hone their ability to deceive.
In EVE? I think that is the problem. "In EVE" Every player has their own dreams and ideas of how they feel the game should be but the problem is that it isn't tempered by an understanding of game design. Their passion tends to blind them to the way their ideas would affect the rest of the game.
Aztec sacrifices were popular at one time. Now there is an altar in EVE on which some players want to sacrifice others for the gratuitous slaughter that they feel entitled to have. They don't seem to realise that cheering on these priests will lead to a lack of real gaming in the long term future. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 21:58:00 -
[52] - Quote
Look at this thread. Just look at it. All this crap so you can avoid talking to other people and building a coalition. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 22:02:00 -
[53] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Look at this thread. Just look at it. All this crap so you can avoid talking to other people and building a coalition.
Still trapped in that assumption? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5027
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 22:02:00 -
[54] - Quote
is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 22:04:00 -
[55] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone
Trouble is what you are persuading them about! Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 22:08:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Look at this thread. Just look at it. All this crap so you can avoid talking to other people and building a coalition. Still trapped in that assumption?
Yes. Set me free. Show me you've done it. All I see as a bunch of griping about popularity contests and talk of ... aptitude tests? That's hilarious on so many levels.
Anyhow, yes, democracy doesn't work if you're lazy.
|
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5027
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 22:17:00 -
[57] - Quote
a bloo bloo bloo i lost an election and someone i dislike ended up in charge, let's come up with an authoritarian solution instead of organizing The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 22:41:00 -
[58] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:a bloo bloo bloo i lost an election and someone i dislike ended up in charge, let's come up with an authoritarian solution instead of organizing
Do you hear yourself?
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Yes. Set me free. Show me you've done it. All I see as a bunch of griping about popularity ...
Wrong assumption.
You are both under a similar belief that I ran for CSM or that you think I want to be in CSM. You keep trying to attack me as a person, it is rather exasperating, like watching a child beating away at a noisy toy then looking up at you to make sure they have your attention.
Meanwhile, I am saying that this process / system produces useless people and results, which may mislead CCP. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
99
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 22:56:00 -
[59] - Quote
we already had the competency review tribunal assess your thinking capabilities and it found them deficient cease posting immediately and do not attempt to vote |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 23:03:00 -
[60] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:we already had the competency review tribunal assess your thinking capabilities and it found them deficient cease posting immediately and do not attempt to vote
Retar Aveymone wrote: i have reviewed your posts and determined you are incompetent to offer advice or opinions, and most especially to vote
please cease doing so at once
Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
99
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 23:06:00 -
[61] - Quote
i am more eve successful than you on any metric and therefore am qualified to dismiss your input
next |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 23:17:00 -
[62] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Wrong assumption. You are both under a similar belief that I ran for CSM or that you think I want to be in CSM. You keep trying to attack me as a person, it is rather exasperating, like watching a child beating away at a noisy toy then looking up at you to make sure they have your attention. Meanwhile, I am saying that this process / system produces useless people and results, which may mislead CCP. No, you dummy, I never thought that. I thought you were unhappy about things and wanted to change them, and you would get away with it too if it weren't for that meddling democracy!
You can organize a coalition without being the candidate. In fact, that's arguably the best way to do it.
But whether you're a candidate or not, you're sitting there going on about how unfair things are and you are clearly unwilling to actually do anything to change them. I'm not just gonna drink your tears, I'm gonna smoke 'em.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 23:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote: I never thought
*Nods slowly.* Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 23:28:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Enjoy your complete impotence and irrelevance, not only in the world of internet spaceships, but in real life as well. It's entirely self-created. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 23:54:00 -
[65] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone
Case in point.
You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence.
Bye!
I can haz ur stuffs?
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
629
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 00:03:00 -
[66] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:There are some fundamental problems with democracy.
I agree, replace the CSM with an hereditary system of nobility.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
400
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 00:06:00 -
[67] - Quote
csm seats should go to highest bidder using an aurum-based auctioning system |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 00:17:00 -
[68] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:There are some fundamental problems with democracy. I agree, replace the CSM with an hereditary system of nobility.
No, replace it with a system informed by strict meritocracy.
And, upon election/appointment, all delegates must immediately biomass any forum-alts!
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9815
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 00:40:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: ... and propaganda machines.
... shout louder than anyone else.
Alliances ... dedicate people to forums ...
Interesting, is it not; how the Goons piled onto this thread? I don't think it's interesting at all, and I will tell you why.
Goons love to post. It's what we do. More than we enjoy playing video games, or reading comic books, or talking about bit coins, we love to post. We just can't get enough. As a consequence of our love for posting, we post a lot. That goons have "piled onto this thread," the same thread being located in the CSM-related subforum during CSM election season, is not at all abnormal. The CSM election process has our attention right now, and will continue to have it until we become bored of it or the next big thing comes along to grasp our attention. You're not special; your idea isn't special; this thread isn't special. Just one more instance of the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world, complete with an accompanying orchestra of shitposts from Yours Goonly. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9815
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 00:51:00 -
[70] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:There are some fundamental problems with democracy. I agree, replace the CSM with an hereditary system of nobility. No, replace it with a system informed by strict meritocracy. And, upon election/appointment, all delegates must immediately biomass any forum-alts! I don't see any problem with this system, but that's because the candidates I care about are all very meritorious persons both in game and in real life, being well-traveled men of letters and space men of honour. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
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Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 00:54:00 -
[71] - Quote
Andski wrote:Quote:(Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!) so :shobon:, so idealistic
What means "shobon," please? Sorry, not up on the latest goonie ****-posting lingo.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9815
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 00:59:00 -
[72] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Andski wrote:Quote:(Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!) so :shobon:, so idealistic What means "shobon," please? Sorry, not up on the latest goonie ****-posting lingo. Wherein the term "the latest" refers to stuff that's a decade old. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9820
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:03:00 -
[73] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs? Honest question.
In the event that The Mittani is reelected to the CSM, will you admit that you were wrong? Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:09:00 -
[74] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs? Honest question. In the event that The Mittani is reelected to the CSM, will you admit that you were wrong?
Nope!
Momentum from on-going herd-conformity =/= actual legitimacy =/= progress. Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9820
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:11:00 -
[75] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs? Honest question. In the event that The Mittani is reelected to the CSM, will you admit that you were wrong? Nope! Momentum from on-going herd-conformity =/= actual legitimacy =/= progress. If you refuse to acknowledge victory or defeat conditions for your side of an argument, then how do you expect others to have a reasoned discussion with you? Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:12:00 -
[76] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Andski wrote:Quote:(Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!) so :shobon:, so idealistic What means "shobon," please? Sorry, not up on the latest goonie ****-posting lingo. Wherein the term "the latest" refers to stuff that's a decade old.
^^To you, sure.
To the rest of us whom, in that time, have been known to (occasionally) step away from the computer...?
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9820
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:12:00 -
[77] - Quote
It just seems disingenuous, to me, to have your only acknowledged resolutions as:
A: "I win!" / Haha, you were wrong! I'm right. Whee~ B: "I'm in the process of winning!" / You're still wrong. Lalala, I can't hear you.
It's awfully arrogant to believe that your argument is incapable of being disproved.
edit: added some hyperbole Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9820
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:12:00 -
[78] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Andski wrote:Quote:(Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!) so :shobon:, so idealistic What means "shobon," please? Sorry, not up on the latest goonie ****-posting lingo. Wherein the term "the latest" refers to stuff that's a decade old. ^^To you, sure. To the rest of us whom, in that time, have been known to (occasionally) step away from the computer...? You will gain no grounds in an argument with me by presenting ad hominems.
As you colloquially say, "Next!" Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9820
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:24:00 -
[79] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs? Of what is this a case in point, other than your inability to use apostrophes correctly? Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:29:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote: [multi-quoting snipped to appease the forum-monster]
You will gain no grounds in an argument with me by presenting ad hominems.
As you colloquially say, "Next!"[/quote]
Quite right, quite right.
But, see, I couldn't care less anymore either. (Except about what "shobon" means--that one's new to me, at least.)
If Mittani wins, then...well, I'll find him just as irrelevant this term as I did in the last one, notwithstanding certain outbursts of pants-on-head stupidity like removing A/B/C/O ores from lower end wormholes because "they impact the market unduly," among other examples I could name...
Overall, though, he and his--or as some of you would seemingly have it, He and His--are just not that relevant to my interests, never was, but I find his attention-whoring/delusions of grandeur entertaining, just as I always did.
He begins to bore me, though: Bit of a one-trick pony, tbqfh.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
108
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:32:00 -
[81] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:No, replace it with a system informed by strict meritocracy.
And, upon election/appointment, all delegates must immediately biomass any forum-alts!
let us entertain your stupid idea for a minute
please, person who certainly is not mentally disabled, elaborate on your strict meritocracy and how merit shall be measured and allocated |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:37:00 -
[82] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:No, replace it with a system informed by strict meritocracy.
And, upon election/appointment, all delegates must immediately biomass any forum-alts!
let us entertain your stupid idea for a minute please, person who certainly is not mentally disabled, elaborate on your strict meritocracy and how merit shall be measured and allocated
Sense of humour:
Work on that, pls, kthxbai.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
108
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:39:00 -
[83] - Quote
my friend, you are breaking the conceit of you not being mentally disabled for the purposes of this exercise, please try to respect the process |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9820
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:42:00 -
[84] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:[quote=Lyris Nairn] Overall, though, he and his--or as some of you would seemingly have it, He and His--are just not that relevant to my interests, never was, but I find his attention-whoring/delusions of grandeur entertaining, just as I always did. Are you trying to insinuate that Alexander Gianturco has a BDSM relationship wish some of us? Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9820
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 01:43:00 -
[85] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:my friend, you are breaking the conceit of you not being mentally disabled for the purposes of this exercise, please try to respect the process I'll take "Famous Titties," for five hundred. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 02:33:00 -
[86] - Quote
I can't shake the feeling that these people are furries.
|
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5041
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 02:42:00 -
[87] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs?
are you roleplaying, idgi The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5041
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 02:43:00 -
[88] - Quote
no-names and npc alts posting YOU ARE IRRELEVANT is one of the more entertaining parts of the csm cycle The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 02:50:00 -
[89] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera, are you a bat trapped in an aspie's body? |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 02:56:00 -
[90] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs? Of what is this a case in point, other than your inability to use apostrophes correctly?
Oh, is "its'" incorrect? I've seen it both with and without the apostrophe quite frequently, but if so...hey, kudos to you, space-friend, for catching my mistake. (You know what a stickler I can normally be for that kind of thing, after all )
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
|
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 02:58:00 -
[91] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:no-names and npc alts posting YOU ARE IRRELEVANT is one of the more entertaining parts of the csm cycle
This is my main--now that you mention it, though, who are all these generic Goon-fluffers popping up here, anyway?
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 02:59:00 -
[92] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs? are you roleplaying, idgi
Yeah, I'll just bet you don't.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5042
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 03:09:00 -
[93] - Quote
you /are/ roleplaying
how adorable! The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
723
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 03:51:00 -
[94] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs?
its***************************************************************************************************************************
I'm sorry, I refuse to vote or support anyone too stupid to use simple grammar correctly. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 04:00:00 -
[95] - Quote
Sverige Pahis wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs? its*************************************************************************************************************************** I'm sorry, I refuse to vote or support anyone too stupid to use simple grammar correctly.
Who said I was running? I'd flirted with the idea of doing so, true, but then sanity re-asserted itself. Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
217
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 04:01:00 -
[96] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:you /are/ roleplaying
how adorable!
Will u b my space-fwiend, Massa Mittiez?
[/sarcasm]
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9828
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 04:47:00 -
[97] - Quote
Lyrrashae do you prefer d10 dice pool systems or d20 systems for your role playing games? Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Doctor Eezee
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 05:02:00 -
[98] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote: Goons love to post. It's what we do. More than we enjoy playing video games, or reading comic books, or talking about bit coins, we love to post. We just can't get enough. .
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Stop the Clock! Posting about Bitcoins is the best thing ever. Even the hilariously bad Xenuria and D3 threads don't come close to even the mildest of Bitcoin discussions.
Anyway, since I get payed billions by the alliance every month to post in various threads on this forum:
I also think that people are stupid when they have imo wrong rationalisations for whatever they believe in. That stands for people that are religious, people that vote Republican etc.
Still I don't whine about it, I try to change it by providing a better alternative. Most of the candidacys on this forum are straight-up ********. They don't have any position whatsoever (just look at D3, he runs solely on the basis that he doesn't like goons), or have stupid ideas (Xenuria, who coincidently also hates goons).
Of course I vote for who I think can best represent my oppinions in the game, why wouldn't I? And it's absolutely not out fault, that most people are too stupid to see that they could easily select csm members that represent their interests. If you want no goons on the CSM, get people to vote. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
218
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 05:06:00 -
[99] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Lyrrashae do you prefer d10 dice pool systems or d20 systems for your role playing games?
d20, all the way!
E: Now where did I just put mine, anyway? Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM 7! (Mittens, you may not want to admit it, but your day in the sun is over. Next!)
|
Boris Lachenkov
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 08:07:00 -
[100] - Quote
Go to sleep, wake up and see thread has progressed by 3 pages http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/9846/images/psyduck.gif
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
(I tend to {snip} quote people in order to show where I am directing my response.)
I can agree that being able to communicate effectively is one skill that CSM would need. However, as it stands, CCP are getting a group of people best suited for public relations not those who would would be able to filter information and give them the best over all direction.
"Giving players what they want is exactly what you do not want."
Look at each of the CSM candidates. They have personal agendas and they are saying what will appeal to as many people as possible. "Hehe, he is funny I will vote for him." "That one wants the same win button as I do!"
They are short sighted and won't be helping to arbitrate with CCP what is best for the game in general.
So are you saying that no-one in CSM 6 could aptly give advice/criticisms outside of their usual play style? Trebor couldn't talk about running low-sec incursions because he has never done them (No Idea if he has or not, examples are fun), White tree could never give advice about being an Englishman because he's from Ireland, etc. You seem to be complaining that the current CSM are akin to frat boys with no experiences and no ability to "Filter information". I'd dispute this I has have yet to see any modules that allow freighter pilots to scan the other side of a gate, no 'mini' ships or "Heavy mining" ships so I would say their ability to filter information is working perfectly fine.
Though it seems you are more complaining that either your specific side is not adequately represented, in which case I must seriously reiterate the fact that the CSMs are there to talk about all aspects of EVE at the moment in an objective manner. Not to just sit there and say "No, sorry. I'm a null-sec CSM, I can't talk about low-sec incursions or mining operations."
That's the trouble with the people not the system. The people are the ones going "LOL LOOK AT THE GOON TEARS. +1 MEJT." instead of wondering if they will actually have the cognitive capacity to look beyond their own experiences and step out of their shoes to deal with a problem.
I don't see how any other system would help in this situation anyway. Would you like CCP to administer an IQ test? Ask for several hypothetical solutions before their accept your application? Would you like 1 representative from null-sec, 1 from low-sec, etc, etc ,etc.
In any case I agree with some of the goons in this thread, if you want to have a hand in the change in EVE and contribute to the over development of the game get a coalition going. The alternate delegates (who still have access to the forums/skype/etc) won with a fraction of the votes last year. The lowest was Darius with 921, that isn't a huge number but it's enough to get you onto the alternate delegation squad (Funky music plays). You have a year from roughly now to begin building a base of supporters, learning all the other parts of EVE (So that you can adequately represent them all and understand their various problems) and then put in your application. That's what I plan to do, BORIS LACHENKOV FOR CSM 8.
huehuehuehuehue. |
|
Leontyne Gaterau
Lead Farmers Academy Kill It With Fire
31
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 09:10:00 -
[101] - Quote
More people need to get worked up about the process of voting for seven people to get drunk in Iceland on your PLEX's dime and seven more people to Skype with them while CCP :ccp:. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9841
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 09:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 11:25:00 -
[103] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:If you refuse to acknowledge victory or defeat conditions for your side of an argument, then how do you expect others to have a reasoned discussion with you? Argument precludes discussion.
Boris Lachenkov wrote: Though it seems you are more complaining that either your specific side is not adequately represented, in which case I must seriously reiterate the fact that the CSMs are there to talk about all aspects of EVE at the moment in an objective manner. .
I don't have a side and that is the problem, you can talk of the ideals but people are voting for sides and on bias. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Boris Lachenkov
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 11:30:00 -
[104] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Argument precludes discussion.
I don't have a side and that is the problem, you can talk of the ideals but people are voting for sides and on bias.
No. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument An argument is a form of discussion. You are thinking of the generic version that includes shouting at someone till they stop talking.
So you don't have a side to feel inadequately represented but you feel inadequately represented. Perhaps it's just me but I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your point any more, however, the right idea is to still switch from a democratic system to a completely different one due to people not voting for an undefined 'better' candidate? That seems kind of pointless and hard to achieve. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 12:02:00 -
[105] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera, does your fursuit double as a hugbox?
I don't mean to offend, I'm just asking questions. |
Mintrolio
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
299
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 12:10:00 -
[106] - Quote
CONFRIMIGN FUR REALS ?
ALSO NOW IST TO BEIGN ABSTANE ? ARE YO SERIOS ?
ALSO CONFRIMIGN ALRED IST C300,000 ACCOUNT NOT VOTIGN LAS YEAR. IF MOR IST ABSTANE IT JUST MAKIGN SAM CANDATES GETTIGN IN AGANE, NOTHIGN CAHNGE. INSTED MAK MOR VOTE. MOR VOTIGN FUR FRINGES CANDATES LIKE TREBOR, ELSIE AND SELEENA AND MINTROLIO
I RELY NO UNEDERSTANDIGN THESE POSITON. YOU NOT LIKE SITATON THEN CHANGEIGN IT. MAK MOR VOTES.
NOT VOTE IS JUS NOT OPTOIN.
I WANT NO MOR TO HERE OF THESE. RELY I AM VER VER ANGYRY ON THESE. MINTROLIO FUR CSM7 |
Jenshae Chiroptera
444
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 12:26:00 -
[107] - Quote
Mintrolio wrote:Confirming this is for real?
Also now we start abstaining? Are you serious?
Additionally, confirming that 300 000 accounts did not vote last year. If more are abstaining it will just mean the same candidates get in again. Nothing changes! Instead we need more votes. More votes for fringe candidates such as Trebor, Elsie, Seleena and myself.
I really do not understand your position. You do not like the situation then change it. Make more votes.
Not voting is just not an option.
I declare that I want to hear no more about this. Truly I am very angry about this.
I believe that it does not matter who gets voted into the CSM. I think the merit in an abstain shows CCP how many people did make the effort to vote but have no faith in CSM or the candidates.
Thus, it would demonstrate how seriously CCP should regard the options of the CSM based on how many people are saying, "These people do not represent me." Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
50
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 14:08:00 -
[108] - Quote
I for one do see the merit's of an active abstain vote. An active abstain means you are willing to vote, however the representatives that are running are not in line with your own opinions and thus you wish not to vote for the "lesser evil"
To take it even further I would add a button to vote against the concept of the CSM as a whole in the current setup.
Maybe people refuse to vote because they don't think the CSM in it's current setup is a real functionable tool to represent the playerbase. This can have several reasons like this thread already is trying to find out.
|
Boris Lachenkov
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
19
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 14:26:00 -
[109] - Quote
I agree with an active abstain, it would be interesting to see by what % voting participation goes up if this were to go in. It's a good metric for CCP as well. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 15:13:00 -
[110] - Quote
I will support this if Jenshae Chiroptera promises to write the number of active abstains on his forehead and post a picture to this thread when the election is done. |
|
Tubrug1
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
24
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 15:17:00 -
[111] - Quote
notsureifserious.jpg Don't listen to what i say |
Tubrug1
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
24
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 15:17:00 -
[112] - Quote
Double post- facepalm.jpg Don't listen to what i say |
Jenshae Chiroptera
446
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 16:54:00 -
[113] - Quote
Boris Lachenkov wrote:I agree with an active abstain, it would be interesting to see by what percentage voting participation goes up if this were to go in. It's a good metric for CCP as well.
Indeed. However, it will need to be coupled with some notification from CCP. I suspect that many players are in hopeless apathy. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2100
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 16:59:00 -
[114] - Quote
victory goes to the best organized groups, deal with it yeah no i'm not actually running for csm7
got you lol!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
RUS Comannder
Tremor Recorded Variable Enterprise Training Standards
15
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 17:18:00 -
[115] - Quote
CCP - Give us the "NONE OF THE ABOVE" voting option so we can vote out the whole twisted from its original intention CSM system. Or give us the option to for OR AGAINST each delegate.
What we have come to is a table full of people who represent their own individual interests and not the interests of the players, except the players who share their interests by some sheer accident.
Every government attempting a representational form of government has realized that an elected body of "at-large" delegates cannot represent anything but the single line of thought which elected them, so you can have one or one million representatives, but they are all representing only one slice of thought, which is far from the majority, of the constituents.
You must devise a way to to have delegates elected by different portions of the players in order to represent more than one line of thought. governments do this by region determined by residence. We have a problem establishing residence in space, but it would not be impossible to determine where a player has spent 75% of their time between one election and the next. Computers can do this by always knowing if a player is in null, low sec or high sec WHILE LOGGED ON and doing some mouse and/or keyboard activity during the period. Knowing some activity is happening is important or candidates will just park a toon in a different region to "rig" the election. Then when players attempt to vote, the candidates who can only represent the region in which they have residency, will be shown on their ballot. To keep with the representational method of most governments, the number of representatives would be determined by the number of residents of each region, thus giving each player equal representational opportunities.
As it is now, voter apathy leads to a few people backed by large alliances getting elected to their Icelandic Vacation Program. Every year, I keep waiting to see a candidate whose platform has anything on it which seems of interest to the quite popular segment of players who pursue the same type of game play as I prefer.
If you intend to keep it as it is now - simplify it and let the five largest alliances send 3 delegates each. You will most likely get the same guys as you have now.
Give us the "none of the above" or the "yes or no" vote and see how much voter apathy there is then. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9855
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 17:44:00 -
[116] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:The Mittani wrote:is this the actual aspie from last year? anyway, in a position where persuasion matters, charisma is aptitude.
sorry about your foreveralone Case in point. You are just a repellent, loud, up-its'-own-arse little tool who's outlived its' service-life, and doesn't want to face its' impending obsolescence. Bye! I can haz ur stuffs? Of what is this a case in point, other than your inability to use apostrophes correctly? Oh, is "its'" incorrect? I've seen it both with and without the apostrophe quite frequently, but if so...hey, kudos to you, space-friend, for catching my mistake. (You know what a stickler I can normally be for that kind of thing, after all ) "Its" is the possessive form of "it," denoting the long-form phrase "belonging to the entity referred to by the pronoun it". "It's" is the contraction of "it" and "is," denoting literally "it is".
Apostrophes are never used to denote plural forms of words. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 17:49:00 -
[117] - Quote
RUS Comannder wrote: (a bunch of nonsense that I'm not reprinting)
Most nullsec players have at least one empire alt that they actually log in and do things with, so basically your proposal is stupid.
What about someone whose character is a trader type who likes to run things between highsec, lowsec, and null? What region does that person belong to?
If you feel your point of view represents the majority of Eve players, get off your fat butt and organize those players into a voting bloc. If they actually don't care, then guess what, that means they actually don't care. There's not some evil external force that stops them from caring.
You're just lazy and want CCP to organize your voting bloc for you. Good luck with that. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
55
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 17:57:00 -
[118] - Quote
RUS Comannder wrote: What we have come to is a table full of people who represent their own individual interests and not the interests of the players, except the players who share their interests by some sheer accident.
Yeah, all those people who accidentally voted. How embarrassing. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 18:05:00 -
[119] - Quote
Also, why do people keep comparing the CSM to a representational government? The CSM exists to communicate the desires of the players to CCP, so that CCP can turn a profit on internet spaceships. If you abstain (deliberately or not) from the CSM vote and continue to pay for your subscription then the message you're sending to CCP is pretty obvious. If you don't vote and then cancel your subscription, CCP is going to pay even more attention to the CSM so it can hang on to its existing player base. |
Prince Kobol
210
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 19:01:00 -
[120] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Snip
So what you are saying is that it is wrong for a group of people who all share the same goals to vote for a person who is acting as a spoke persons for their group. |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
405
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 19:06:00 -
[121] - Quote
I will never understand how some people can have class and inferiority complex issues in a video game |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9858
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 19:17:00 -
[122] - Quote
Haves versus have nots. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9858
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 19:24:00 -
[123] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: So what you are saying is ...
In my experience, neither in real life nor on the Internet does the statement immediately following "So what you are saying is ..." tend to accurately represent what the quoted speaker had previously said.
Poor form. Ten points from Gryffindor. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
RUS Comannder
Tremor Recorded Variable Enterprise Training Standards
16
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 19:29:00 -
[124] - Quote
Well, thank you very much - I won my bet with a friend !!
I bet him that my post (which he approved) would be answered by GoonyToons with personal attacks (stupid, lazy fat butt, etc) instead of the basic theme that the system is not working. and cannot work regardless of who is elected or where they come from.
Now here is what I really think.
I want CCP to be successful. I want all their employees to be well compensated so they may prosper at a nice standard of living. I want CCP to get input from their customers so they can react to customer wants. I am using the terms corporation and customer purposefully to connote the real relationship each person with a subscription has with CCP, and vice versa.
I urge CCP to use the same methods to determine customer satisfaction as the rest of the successful corporate world does. I urge them to abandon the folly of these elections and go with a quality marketing firm.
Name me one corporation in the top one hundred (or thousand, or ten thousand) most successful corporations in the entire world which has an advisory body elected by the customers. Customer advisory boards? Yes, but not elected by the customers. Please do not confuse this with public corporations required by the regulations of the country in which they are based or have shares traded publicly to have elections with shareholders voting, one vote per share owned, to elect a board of directors.
Use a marketing firm to produce quality questionnaires for customers to complete. Being web based makes it a natural! Use the demographics of your customer base to guide your decision making processes. It might even be less costly than the current Icelandic Tour and CSM Drinking Contest now used. It will certainly be less divisive than this current inefficient method which can only be useful if every delegate acts in a completely altruistic manner while perforning their delegate duties. However, ANY elected delegate will most likely be human, so that sets it back a ways from actually happening.
Be a corporation! Act like a corporation! Act like a successful corporation.
Hold beauty contests if you like and give out one off ships or even special monocles!
But FIRST - get your customer satisfaction information in a reliable, time tested fashion - the same way as successful corporations over the world do!
Ok - go ahead, I know I have a grammatic/spelling error in there somewhere as I knocked it out in first draft form, so attack that if you cannot come up with anything of substance to debate the issue. Or, you can just attack me personally to divert the attention away from the issue because - OMG - we would much rather be sidetracked with nonsense than look at the issue! |
Prince Kobol
210
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 19:46:00 -
[125] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Prince Kobol wrote: So what you are saying is ...
In my experience, neither in real life nor on the Internet does the statement immediately following "So what you are saying is ..." tend to accurately represent what the quoted speaker had previously said. Poor form. Ten points from Gryffindor.
I have re-worded my post :)
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 21:43:00 -
[126] - Quote
RUS Comannder wrote:Well, thank you very much - I won my bet with a friend !!
I bet him that my post (which he approved) would be answered by GoonyToons with personal attacks (stupid, lazy fat butt, etc) instead of the basic theme that the system is not working. and cannot work regardless of who is elected or where they come from.
Now here is what I really think.
Whoa, look at this puppetmaster. I wonder what he really thinks. Unfortunately I can't read the rest until my eyes unroll.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
451
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 22:38:00 -
[127] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: So are you are saying is that it is wrong for a group of people who all share the same goals to vote for a person who is acting as a spoke persons for their group?
I am saying that the voting system is creating a bias and a group, which I believe is more detrimental than good for the game. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9859
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 22:47:00 -
[128] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:Prince Kobol wrote: So what you are saying is ...
In my experience, neither in real life nor on the Internet does the statement immediately following "So what you are saying is ..." tend to accurately represent what the quoted speaker had previously said. Poor form. Ten points from Gryffindor. I have re-worded my post :) High five! Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Prince Kobol
211
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 10:25:00 -
[129] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Prince Kobol wrote: So are you are saying is that it is wrong for a group of people who all share the same goals to vote for a person who is acting as a spoke persons for their group?
I am saying that the voting system is creating a bias and a group, which I believe is more detrimental than good for the game.
Yet inst that democracy?
You have a group of people who share the same goals and idea's who then choose a spoke person to stand on their behalf.
Yes those candidates who are part of a large alliances stand a better chance of getting elected simply because they are already part of a group who share the same goals and idea's. however this does not mean that if you are not part of a large alliance you can not get elected.
Also its all well and good saying the current voting system does not work but I do not see you proposing an alternative.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
451
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 12:16:00 -
[130] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: Yet inst that democracy?
You have a group of people who share the same goals and idea's who then choose a spoke person to stand on their behalf.
Yes those candidates who are part of a large alliances stand a better chance of getting elected simply because they are already part of a group who share the same goals and idea's. however this does not mean that if you are not part of a large alliance you can not get elected.
Also its all well and good saying the current voting system does not work but I do not see you proposing an alternative.
Which is why I have settled on this idea of actively abstaining. I do not believe that players can be impartial and will stumble consciously or subconsciously.
Thus, we should have the option to say, "I do not support this system and or group." or "These people do not represent me." Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
131
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 13:14:00 -
[131] - Quote
i agree with anything that removes more useless pubbie input |
Prince Kobol
211
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 15:28:00 -
[132] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Prince Kobol wrote: Yet inst that democracy?
You have a group of people who share the same goals and idea's who then choose a spoke person to stand on their behalf.
Yes those candidates who are part of a large alliances stand a better chance of getting elected simply because they are already part of a group who share the same goals and idea's. however this does not mean that if you are not part of a large alliance you can not get elected.
Also its all well and good saying the current voting system does not work but I do not see you proposing an alternative.
Which is why I have settled on this idea of actively abstaining. I do not believe that players can be impartial and will stumble consciously or subconsciously. Thus, we should have the option to say, "I do not support this system and or group." or "These people do not represent me."
If you do not agree then with any of the candidates then you do not vote.
Also of course players are not impartial, why should they be?
Part of running for CSM is because you want aspects for the game changed, if people agree with you then you will be elected, if people do not agree with you then you wont be.
If only a handful of the New Eden vote then it will show and a re-think will be needed.
It all depends on what CCP class as an acceptable percentage of the game population voting before they consider a re-think. |
None ofthe Above
66
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 15:43:00 -
[133] - Quote
RUS Comannder wrote:CCP - Give us the "NONE OF THE ABOVE" voting option so we can vote out the whole twisted from its original intention CSM system. Or give us the option to vote for OR AGAINST each delegate.
What we have come to is a table full of people who represent their own individual interests and not the interests of the players, except the players who share their interests by some sheer accident.
Every government attempting a representational form of government has realized that an elected body of "at-large" delegates cannot represent anything but the single line of thought which elected them, so you can have one or one million representatives, but they are all representing only one slice of thought, which is far from the majority, of the constituents.
You must devise a way to to have delegates elected by different portions of the players in order to represent more than one line of thought. governments do this by region determined by residence. We have a problem establishing residence in space, but it would not be impossible to determine where a player has spent 75% of their time between one election and the next. Computers can do this by always knowing if a player is in null, low sec or high sec WHILE LOGGED ON and doing some mouse and/or keyboard activity during the period. Knowing some activity is happening is important or candidates will just park a toon in a different region to "rig" the election. Then when players attempt to vote, the candidates who can only represent the region in which they have residency, will be shown on their ballot. To keep with the representational method of most governments, the number of representatives would be determined by the number of residents of each region, thus giving each player equal representational opportunities.
As it is now, voter apathy leads to a few people backed by large alliances getting elected to their Icelandic Vacation Program. Every year, I keep waiting to see a candidate whose platform has anything on it which seems of interest to the quite popular segment of players who pursue the same type of game play as I prefer.
If you intend to keep it as it is now - simplify it and let the five largest alliances send 3 delegates each. You will most likely get the same guys as you have now.
Give us the "none of the above" or the "yes or no" vote and see how much voter apathy there is then.
Couldn't agree more.
EDIT: To be clear I am mean this in the literal sense of agreeing with the premise, and the trollish sense of vote for me!
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
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None ofthe Above
66
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 15:54:00 -
[134] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Mintrolio wrote:Confirming this is for real?
Also now we start abstaining? Are you serious?
Additionally, confirming that 300 000 accounts did not vote last year. If more are abstaining it will just mean the same candidates get in again. Nothing changes! Instead we need more votes. More votes for fringe candidates such as Trebor, Elsie, Seleena and myself.
I really do not understand your position. You do not like the situation then change it. Make more votes.
Not voting is just not an option.
I declare that I want to hear no more about this. Truly I am very angry about this. I believe that it does not matter who gets voted into the CSM. I think the merit in an abstain shows CCP how many people did make the effort to vote but have no faith in CSM or the candidates. Thus, it would demonstrate how seriously CCP should regard the options of the CSM based on how many people are saying, "These people do not represent me."
Have to say I agree, deliberate abstention is indistinguishable from indifference. If you truly feel that this process does not represent you, then you need to motivate people to vote for someone who will carry that message. To not do this plays into the bloc strategy of alienation and promoting indifference in order to magnify their strength.
My own candidacy was set up for this purpose and perhaps you could check out my collegue:
Tiger Would https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=66277
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
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Skye Aurorae
No Bull Ships
157
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 15:59:00 -
[135] - Quote
Democracy doesn't work because people vote for people 'like them' - and most people are idiots, so politicians end up being experts at appealing to to dumb people.
Eve is full of smart people, people who should seriously consider voting for a candidate who's smart, a candidate who has a track record of contributing to sci-fi universes, a candidate who's education allows them to understand and model complex systems and a candidate who by trade writes software.
That would be me. |
Mu'ad Diib
The Mighty
64
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 16:11:00 -
[136] - Quote
Whilst I really do understand the cynicism, I still believe that it's possible to have decent candidates voted onto the CSM.
I guess that's kinda why I'm standing, (or at least trying to find enough nominations to at least make the shortlist so that I can stand). If you want to change things then you could get rid of it completely, this is definitely true. However you could also choose to support the people who are standing as independent candidates, like myself.
Vote Mu'd Diib for CSM - http://tinyurl.com/Vote4MD
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. |
Tyrion Struan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 16:14:00 -
[137] - Quote
Skye Aurorae wrote:Democracy doesn't work because people vote for people 'like them' - and most people are idiots, so politicians end up being experts at appealing to to dumb people.
Eve is full of smart people, people who should seriously consider voting for a candidate who's smart, a candidate who has a track record of contributing to sci-fi universes, a candidate who's education allows them to understand and model complex systems and a candidate who by trade writes software.
That would be me.
Ummh, how far out are you? You've just listed why the Mittani is chair of the CSM.
Seriously, people here seem to have missed an important part of this election thing. Look at all the forum activity it creates. Pubbies are raging like there was no tomorrow, goons are, well, being goons, and eve is alive and thrive not only ingame - but also on the forums. For CCP this is a gigantic success, there's created tons of attention. Sure CCP can get feedback from a select group of customers. But they quoted doing that when Greyscale messed up the POS thing by talking to "people". This way they get a more or less representative sounding board, which they balance with talking to other players, and then they get all of you to go :spacemad: and created threadnoughts about the elections and how goons are bad. (We are.) All while you are strengthening your emotional connection to the game. For CCP this is nought but win. As for questioners, in some three months I've replayed to at least one through the newsletter thing, you must seriously not be paying attention if you've managed to miss it.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
455
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 16:57:00 -
[138] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: If you do not agree then with any of the candidates then you do not vote.
Not the same thing. Passively abstaining can be dismissed as laziness. Actively, voting and abstaining would show CCP how many people believe that the CSM is not representing the best interests of the game as a whole.
For now, the votes are similar to these "Like" buttons. People can only say that they agree, they have no voice to say that they disagree or do not like who is being put forward. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
knobber Jobbler
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
36
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 17:08:00 -
[139] - Quote
Tyrion Struan wrote:
Ummh, how far out are you? You've just listed why the Mittani is chair of the CSM.
The current CSM, and Mittani did well this time because of two key things:
The understanding of Agile project management, the ability to prioritise realistically. They know what the players wanted changed and could articulate that to CCP.
Its exactly why it might be a plan to vote back in the most of the current CSM. They actually did a good job for anyone who plays this game. |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5190
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 17:21:00 -
[140] - Quote
'nerf charismatic attractive people, they get too many votes' The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
455
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 18:16:00 -
[141] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:'nerf charismatic attractive people, they get too many votes'
Translation: "Pardon me ladies and gentlemen as I troll on through; I just wanted to display my ignorance and lack of comprehension as I am indignant that there might be some people, who find me a slimy windbag. Don't you know that I must smother any opposition with attempts at belittling them?" Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
135
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 18:27:00 -
[142] - Quote
that's a pretty crappy translation you should go back to posting school |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
135
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 18:28:00 -
[143] - Quote
get a GED in posting, finally be qualified for unskilled posting jobs |
Commander McSpacepants
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 18:56:00 -
[144] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:'nerf charismatic attractive people, they get too many votes'
The Mittani should be covered in 300 pounds of metal. Made to wear huge earphones blasting Celine Dion and big glasses meant to blind him and give him headaches. He must also wear a red rubber nose and black caps over his teeth. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10026
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:16:00 -
[145] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:The Mittani wrote:'nerf charismatic attractive people, they get too many votes' Translation: "Pardon me ladies and gentlemen as I troll on through; I just wanted to display my ignorance and lack of comprehension as I am indignant that there might be some people, who find me a slimy windbag. Don't you know that I must smother any opposition with attempts at belittling them?" The more you try to "call out" The Mittani, the more you are going to encourage him. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
455
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:21:00 -
[146] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote: The more you try to "call out" The Mittani, the more you are going to encourage him.
In other words: "Do not argue with a fool as they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Tyrion Struan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:22:00 -
[147] - Quote
Commander McSpacepants wrote: The Mittani should be covered in 300 pounds of metal. Made to wear huge earphones blasting Celine Dion and big glasses meant to blind him and give him headaches. He must also wear a red rubber nose and black caps over his teeth.
I think I can assure you that the above doesn't sound like a bad thing at all compared to shifting through the badposting going on here. Now that, that is showing commitment! |
Tyrion Struan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:24:00 -
[148] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote: The more you try to "call out" The Mittani, the more you are going to encourage him.
In other words: "Do not argue with a fool as they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."?
This is why no one argues with you darling, there is just now way to get that low. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10026
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:25:00 -
[149] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote: The more you try to "call out" The Mittani, the more you are going to encourage him.
In other words: "Do not argue with a fool as they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."? In my experience, neither in real life nor on the Internet do the words immediately following "In other words," often reflect the accurate spirit and intent of the quoted person's words, and this is no exception. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
455
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:26:00 -
[150] - Quote
Tyrion Struan wrote:Commander McSpacepants wrote: The Mittani should be covered in 300 pounds of metal. Made to wear huge earphones blasting Celine Dion and big glasses meant to blind him and give him headaches. He must also wear a red rubber nose and black caps over his teeth.
I think I can assure you that the above doesn't sound like a bad thing at all compared to shifting through the badposting going on here. Now that, that is showing commitment!
Speaking of which:
"I think that I can assure you, the above statement does not sound at all like a bad thing compared to sifting through the poor posting in this thread, which requires a great deal of commitment." Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10026
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:27:00 -
[151] - Quote
Tyrion Struan wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote: The more you try to "call out" The Mittani, the more you are going to encourage him.
In other words: "Do not argue with a fool as they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."? This is why no one argues with you darling, there is just now way to get that low. I dare say the reason no one argues with Jenshae Chiroptera is because that forums user does not present arguments which may be reasonably debated. The lack of a gender specific pronoun is in no way meant to be sexist. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10026
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:28:00 -
[152] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyrion Struan wrote:Commander McSpacepants wrote: The Mittani should be covered in 300 pounds of metal. Made to wear huge earphones blasting Celine Dion and big glasses meant to blind him and give him headaches. He must also wear a red rubber nose and black caps over his teeth.
I think I can assure you that the above doesn't sound like a bad thing at all compared to shifting through the badposting going on here. Now that, that is showing commitment! Speaking of which: "I think that I can assure you, the above statement does not sound at all like a bad thing compared to sifting through the poor posting in this thread, which requires a great deal of commitment." To be fair, this is a very low-content/low-effort thread. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
455
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:30:00 -
[153] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:In my experience, neither in real life nor on the Internet does the statement immediately following "So what you are saying is ..." tend to accurately represent what the quoted speaker had previously said.
Lyris Nairn wrote:In my experience, neither in real life nor on the Internet do the words immediately following "In other words," often reflect the accurate spirit and intent of the quoted person's words, and this is no exception.
You just copy and paste things? Maybe got yourself a bot to write your posts for you? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Tyrion Struan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:32:00 -
[154] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyrion Struan wrote:Commander McSpacepants wrote: The Mittani should be covered in 300 pounds of metal. Made to wear huge earphones blasting Celine Dion and big glasses meant to blind him and give him headaches. He must also wear a red rubber nose and black caps over his teeth.
I think I can assure you that the above doesn't sound like a bad thing at all compared to shifting through the badposting going on here. Now that, that is showing commitment! Speaking of which: "I think that I can assure you, the above statement does not sound at all like a bad thing compared to sifting through the poor posting in this thread, which requires a great deal of commitment."
Aww, look at that. It always makes me happy when the oly thing left to retort with is correcting my spelling and grammar. You're cute! |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10027
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:33:00 -
[155] - Quote
Here's another one you'll likely claim is copy-and-pasted (as though it were at all relevant): you will gain no ground in an argument with me by presenting logical fallacies. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
455
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 19:44:00 -
[156] - Quote
*Takes a deep breathe.* I love the smell of such fine forum PVP. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10029
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 20:03:00 -
[157] - Quote
And have you any arguments to present? Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
51
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 20:10:00 -
[158] - Quote
I do understand where the fear comes from when discussing the option of an active abstain button.
It could actually show there are more people against the circus called "CSM" than there are pro-CSM people. As such the "glorious" position of chairman or woman wouldn't be as shiney as some try to call out anymore.
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10029
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 20:20:00 -
[159] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:I do understand where the fear comes from when discussing the option of an active abstain button.
It could actually show there are more people against the circus called "CSM" than there are pro-CSM people. As such the "glorious" position of chairman or woman wouldn't be as shiney as some try to call out anymore.
I would think the fear would be on the part of CCP, because it would potentially reveal one of their big things to be a flop. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
51
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 20:57:00 -
[160] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:I would think the fear would be on the part of CCP, because it would potentially reveal one of their big things to be a flop.
Or on the part of Mittens because then all of a sudden his gloating would be proven more as bloating. |
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 21:10:00 -
[161] - Quote
yes he'd only be the guy heading the most successful alliance in eve |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10030
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 21:13:00 -
[162] - Quote
~heh~ Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10030
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 21:13:00 -
[163] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I would think the fear would be on the part of CCP, because it would potentially reveal one of their big things to be a flop. Or on the part of Mittens because then all of a sudden his gloating would be proven more as bloating. The very worst case scenario for "The Mittani" is that he loses interest in EVE Online entirely, and turns his focus onto World of Tanks or Skyrim, or to some other hobby besides video games. The very worst case scenario for CCP is that their flagship product appears less appealing, and less money comes into their coffers from investors and subscribers. I'm not sure whether it's intentional, childish bickering, or genuine naivete, that's compelling you to overlook "the big picture". Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 21:48:00 -
[164] - Quote
Gather 'round, children, grandpa's gonna tell the story about the time when he was a very important person in an internet spaceships game. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
132
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 21:56:00 -
[165] - Quote
Tell me a story...
Bark |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10032
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 22:22:00 -
[166] - Quote
We're all ears Johnny Marzetti Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
456
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 02:16:00 -
[167] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:I do understand where the fear comes from when discussing the option of an active abstain button.
It could actually show there are more people against the circus called "CSM" than there are pro-CSM people. As such the "glorious" position of chairman or woman wouldn't be as shiney as some try to call out anymore.
Thanks. Added to OP. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
JusFooling Around
JusFooling Around Corp
40
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 07:29:00 -
[168] - Quote
As usual, this thread has disintegrated into a handful of Goony Toons (loved reading that ealrier) sitting on the sidelines sniping away like little children sitting in th back of the classroom making wisecracks while leading the OP through a set of hoops all designed to trip up the logic and discourage any real discussion on the issue. Yes, if they shout it down long enough, it turns to goo.
CCP has to realize that the only people represented by the CSM are the ones who voted, so the smaller the field of voters, the smaller the value of the CSM becomes.
Yeah, CCP - hire the pros and get a first class marketing firm as that guy said a few pages back.
This whole "high school student government" experiment has proven itself useless.
Let the power hungry satisfy their self esteem issues within corps and alliances and let the rest of us just a play a game devised and refined by adults. Why should the vast majority of players, who just want to play, have to organize and become more successful at power seeking just so we can dismantle that failed paradigm, anyway?
Just recognize the voter turnout for what it is - a small portion of the player base wanting to impose their views on the vast majority of the players who don't choose to play the part of the game they think we should.
And as that guy earlier said, go ahead and attack me personally for my bald head and any typos I may have made, but - OMG - stick to the nonsense, because we all want to avoid the real issue here anyway!
I should have quoted that single voice of reason, but hell, I'm no froum rat who knows all those little secrets. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
135
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 07:39:00 -
[169] - Quote
JusFooling Around wrote:sitting on the sidelines sniping away like little children sitting in th back of the classroom making wisecracks More like Rokhs shooting railguns at 250km right?
|
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
216
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 11:27:00 -
[170] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: More like Rokhs shooting railguns at 250km right?
No-one cares.
Internet Spaceships =/= serious business for those of us who have friends and lives, sorry.
I are kyute kitten! I are in ur mishun! Redoosin' teh lag by ninja'ing ur wrekz! (CCP: Make wrecks probable, and after 30min., tractorable.) |
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10061
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 16:05:00 -
[171] - Quote
JusFooling Around wrote:As usual, this thread has disintegrated into a handful of Goony Toons (loved reading that ealrier) sitting on the sidelines sniping away like little children sitting in th back of the classroom making wisecracks while leading the OP through a set of hoops all designed to trip up the logic and discourage any real discussion on the issue. Yes, if they shout it down long enough, it turns to goo.
CCP has to realize that the only people represented by the CSM are the ones who voted, so the smaller the field of voters, the smaller the value of the CSM becomes.
Yeah, CCP - hire the pros and get a first class marketing firm as that guy said a few pages back.
This whole "high school student government" experiment has proven itself useless.
Let the power hungry satisfy their self esteem issues within corps and alliances and let the rest of us just a play a game devised and refined by adults. Why should the vast majority of players, who just want to play, have to organize and become more successful at power seeking just so we can dismantle that failed paradigm, anyway?
Just recognize the voter turnout for what it is - a small portion of the player base wanting to impose their views on the vast majority of the players who don't choose to play the part of the game they think we should.
And as that guy earlier said, go ahead and attack me personally for my bald head and any typos I may have made, but - OMG - stick to the nonsense, because we all want to avoid the real issue here anyway!
I should have quoted that single voice of reason, but hell, I'm no froum rat who knows all those little secrets. Everything you say makes sense, and that's where you've made a grave misstep. You are trying to fight nonsense with sense, and that battle cannot be won. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; RIFTERSWARM : Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar; Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
95
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 16:18:00 -
[172] - Quote
I'm a goony toon and I vote.
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10062
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 16:19:00 -
[173] - Quote
goonies toonies iskies Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; RIFTERSWARM : Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar; Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
95
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 18:31:00 -
[174] - Quote
I like boobies. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10111
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 18:45:00 -
[175] - Quote
Vote for Xenuria so you can put boobies on your goonie toonie meight 07 Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar; Space Friend to All Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 18:58:00 -
[176] - Quote
Goonie toonies with boobies and weenies? And they say democracy doesn't work.
|
None ofthe Above
67
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 19:10:00 -
[177] - Quote
I see this OP is evolving, which is probably a good thing.
I seriously think what you are looking for rather than ABSTAIN is (no joke here):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_of_the_above
An abstain vote means you will allow others to make the decision for you. It is a formal version of not voting.
None of the Above (not talking about me) should mean to invalidate the election with no one winning if it comes in first. New elections with new nomination process would have to started.
In an election like this, not sure what it would mean if a real NOTA vote came in somewhere in the middle of the pack.
And yes that is the inspiration for my name.
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
457
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 22:29:00 -
[178] - Quote
JusFooling Around wrote: CCP has to realize that the only people represented by the CSM are the ones who voted, so the smaller the field of voters, the smaller the value of the CSM becomes.
Thanks, added the meat of your post to the OP. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Jenshae Chiroptera
457
|
Posted - 2012.02.19 06:24:00 -
[179] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:An abstain vote means you will allow others to make the decision for you. It is a formal version of not voting.
Sometimes the absence of something said can tell you things. The main thing, calling it what you will is to have the option to say, "We can vote but we have no confidence in them or their group." Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Skex Relbore
The Dominion of Light BLACK-MARK
78
|
Posted - 2012.02.19 09:03:00 -
[180] - Quote
(I hate the way this ******* forum eats posts)
A "None of the Above" option would not significantly affect the outcome of the CSM elections.
All forms of government rely on the consent of the governed, Even the most brutal dictator must have the "support" of the majority of their people. In this case support being defined as satisfied enough with the status quo to not take action to change it.
There is this saying that 90% of the battle is showing up (This coincidentally is why we own Branch while WN. is couch surfing), this applies just as much to democracy as any other activities.
Those who are active politically are generally the people who are dissatisfied and effected significantly enough by the status quo that the value of their time spent on affecting change is greater than their alternatives. The corollary being that those who are least active are those who are generally satisfied with the status quo.
Here is a brief history lesson of how CSM6 came about. For the first 5 cycles of the CSM program the null blocks generally ignored it as being a mostly irrelevant PR whitewash by CCP in the wake of the t20 debacle. The CSM didn't significantly affect them so they pretty much ignored it.
Then CSM5 said "hey removing jump bridges is a great idea" and CCP said "coolio".
Suddenly the CSM didn't seem like so much of a joke to those null power blocks. So they did what any interest group would do when faced with such a situation,
They organized, They created a platform they organized their constituency in many cases in game enemies put aside their differences to work towards a common cause and because of the general apathy towards the CSM process from the majority of the player base and the fragmented nature of other constituencies they were able to have a disproportionate affect on the outcome.
This happened because they gave enough of a **** about the outcome to take action.
The fact is that unless they are adversely affected by the actions of the CSM most people don't really give a rats ass who's on it. What difference does The_Mittani being the CSM chair have on the average high sec dweller? The answer is not a lot.
The_Mittani may be evil but he's not stupid so you won't see him advocating idiocy that would enrage the average high seccer enough to motivate them into action so don't expect him to start championing nerfs to incursions or moving L4s to low sec.
His detractors can cry boohoohoo "goons are a bunch meanies" until they are blue in the face and it won't have any affect on the outcome, because the average empire pubie isn't negatively affected by him being CSM. In fact those who are rational enough to look past his corp/alliance tag to the stuff he's actually advocated and accomplished, end up having to conclude that he's actually a very affective CSM Chair period.
BTW does anyone else find it interesting that the people who cry the most about wanting a Meritocracy are generally the people that such a system would place at the bottom of the heap.
|
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Karos Vandarl
Homeworld Republic United Homeworlds
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.19 13:22:00 -
[181] - Quote
I Believe having the CSM is more usefull to the player base than not having it, im not saying is perfect but if there wasnt a CSM next time thres a crisis as bad as the jita riots ...who are CCP goina call on to represent thew playerbase ? So...i am opposed to the inclusio of an abolition option however i do appeciate that there may not be a candidate who seems to represent the interests of every player so i would be in favour of the inclusion of an abstention option. I would not use it personly but i can see the value in its inclusion. Of cource the real solution to player who doent feel represented is to stand for election themselves.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
458
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 13:54:00 -
[182] - Quote
Karos Vandarl wrote:... next time there is a crisis as bad as the Jita riots ...who are CCP going call on to represent their player base?
I believe that CSM were a waste of time, literally. I believe that CCP thought, "Oh darn it! We just spent all this time and man hours to make this expansion but the players don't like it. Well ... hey, maybe they just don't like change. I know, we can call the CSM over here for an 'emergency' meeting in a week or two. That should buy us time for people to calm down, accept this change and we can probably spin it out longer saying that we need to work on the meeting notes."
All I can see CSM doing is repeating exactly what was being said loud and clear all over the forums. They then threw in some fun curve balls such as, "It isn't fair, worm holes shouldn't have ABC ore, only null sec should, even though they are both equally risky for their target players," while they were there.
Skex Relbore wrote: The fact is that unless they are adversely affected by the actions of the CSM most people don't really give a rats ass who's on it. What difference does The_Mittani being the CSM chair have on the average high sec dweller? The answer is not a lot. The_Mittani may be evil but he's not stupid so you won't see him advocating idiocy ...
You have said more eloquently what others in this thread have said before you. Right from September last year, a relatively short time after the meeting minutes were at long last released, I thought that I could smell a rat.
Face it, high sec fluctuates far too much for coalitions to be made, the corps and alliances are too small, there are no central intelligence channels and pretty much the same happens with low sec and worm holes. It is highly improbable that they will ever form up into voting blocks to ever contend with null sec.
It has been suggested that the CSM seats be split up into the different regions of space, each of the four having one or two seats and there being an extra veto seat. However, that would not work as null sec players are quick to point out as they usually have care-bear characters and would still just vote themselves in.
Which means that the voting system is broken with no alternative on the horizon.
Thus I have the two options that I am putting forward, active abstaining declaring that "Go ahead but know that they do not represent this many players," and removal which means that the whole CSM is considered a farce that should be terminated.
Majority null sec player + CSM = biased sounding panel. - -
Which, means in turn that when ever there is an idea that would damage the other three areas of space suggested by CCP - CSM could say, "Great idea, go right ahead" then push all their null sec agendas. They already have members falling out of their ears - no, what they want more are victims coming as poor little refugees from the other broken parts of space to be slaughtered. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
146
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 14:28:00 -
[183] - Quote
basically this boils down to that you're bitter that nobody likes you
other highsec candidates have managed to not be spergin' morons and get elected
you, on the other hand, have clearly recognized there is no voting system ever that will get anyone supporting you so you want to throw a hissy fit and take your ball and go home
except nobody let you play with the ball so you don't have any ball to take home its very sad |
Jenshae Chiroptera
458
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 14:58:00 -
[184] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:The usual garbage, which is usually ignored even by Goony Toons
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Like, that would NOT work COZ null sec players say they have care-bear toons and would always PWNZ the CSM elections!!1!. x 9000!!!1! Majority null sec players (YES you!) + CSM = BAD (GGRRR) . .
You seem to require some assistance as your comprehension appears to be lacking. I have done some extra highlighting and cut out the relevant parts of my post that suit yours in response. Even added some smilies to help you with your attention deficiency. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 15:04:00 -
[185] - Quote
"quote" is not the same as "fill in your own biased summary"
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 15:04:00 -
[186] - Quote
that was the worst post i have ever seen |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 15:06:00 -
[187] - Quote
i've seen some terrible posts in my day: been forced to watch helplessly as digi posted on the goonswarm forums without remorse, watched snot shot making such bad posts you could feel the internet weep in shame as it transmitted them
but this, this is an abomination against posting |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 15:23:00 -
[188] - Quote
my position is completely incoherent and perpetually shifting, let me mock your inability to understand the voices in my head |
Jenshae Chiroptera
458
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 15:25:00 -
[189] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:my position is completely incoherent and perpetually shifting, let me mock your inability to understand the voices in my head
You are jealous because the voices only talk to ME! Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
None ofthe Above
70
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 17:13:00 -
[190] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:(I hate the way this ******* forum eats posts)
A "None of the Above" option would not significantly affect the outcome of the CSM elections.
All forms of government rely on the consent of the governed, Even the most brutal dictator must have the "support" of the majority of their people. In this case support being defined as satisfied enough with the status quo to not take action to change it.
It is probably an important note to make that the CSM governs jack all. Its more of a diplomatic committee. These are our representatives to CCP. Consent of the governed has little to do with what we are talking about here.
I strongly believe that "None of the Above" protest vote sends a hell of a lot stronger message than an abstention. Meanwhile, if there are good candidates, its probably better to vote for them. So I'll be voting for Hans and perhaps a few others.
Quote: There is this saying that 90% of the battle is showing up (This coincidentally is why we own Branch while WN. is couch surfing), this applies just as much to democracy as any other activities.
No argument there.
Quote: Those who are active politically are generally the people who are dissatisfied and effected significantly enough by the status quo that the value of their time spent on affecting change is greater than their alternatives. The corollary being that those who are least active are those who are generally satisfied with the status quo.
Here is a brief history lesson of how CSM6 came about. For the first 5 cycles of the CSM program the null blocks generally ignored it as being a mostly irrelevant PR whitewash by CCP in the wake of the t20 debacle. The CSM didn't significantly affect them so they pretty much ignored it.
Then CSM5 said "hey removing jump bridges is a great idea" and CCP said "coolio".
And the current CSM is different how?
They've done essentially the same with Worm hole stabilizers, Drake nerf/refocusing/buff, and using FW as a test bed to avoid breaking null. All bad ideas greeted enthusiastically by the CSM according to the minutes.
We should be outraged and rallying behind those that take this seriously.
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 18:25:00 -
[191] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:except nobody let you play with the ball so you don't have any ball to take home its very sad That is pretty sad.
|
Skex Relbore
The Dominion of Light BLACK-MARK
78
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 19:46:00 -
[192] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:
I strongly believe that "None of the Above" protest vote sends a hell of a lot stronger message than an abstention. Meanwhile, if there are good candidates, its probably better to vote for them. So I'll be voting for Hans and perhaps a few others.
You believe wrongly. None-of the above would not gain significant votes because most of the people who currently abstain do so out of a lack of interest rather than a lack of candidates.
Quote: Those who are active politically are generally the people who are dissatisfied and effected significantly enough by the status quo that the value of their time spent on affecting change is greater than their alternatives. The corollary being that those who are least active are those who are generally satisfied with the status quo.
Here is a brief history lesson of how CSM6 came about. For the first 5 cycles of the CSM program the null blocks generally ignored it as being a mostly irrelevant PR whitewash by CCP in the wake of the t20 debacle. The CSM didn't significantly affect them so they pretty much ignored it.
Then CSM5 said "hey removing jump bridges is a great idea" and CCP said "coolio".
And the current CSM is different how?
They've done essentially the same with Worm hole stabilizers, Drake nerf/refocusing/buff, and using FW as a test bed to avoid breaking null. All bad ideas greeted enthusiastically by the CSM according to the minutes.
We should be outraged and rallying behind those that take this seriously. [/quote]
I'm not familiar with "worm hole stabilizers", Drakes do need adjusted and as Selene explained the idea isn't to use FW as a test bed to avoid breaking null but was instead assuming it would be more practical to get changes/improvements pushed through on one system (or at least two similar systems) than two completely different systems.
Of course whether they are bad idea's or not is a value judgement. My point isn't whether or not removing jump bridges was/wasn't a good/bad idea but rather that until a change significantly affected the null blocks they weren't all that interested in the CSM. But once it did they banded together and worked to ensure that they weren't affected in such a way by people they consider clueless again.
If the CSM were to for instance push for the removal of concord from high sec, I suspect that the High seccers could indeed organize a response capable of changing the makeup of the CSM the same for substantial changes to wormholes.
The reason high sec players aren't currently all that influential on the CSM is because they are too diverse a group with too many divergent interests. High sec industrialists might be interested in revamping the war dec system to make wardecs harder to instigate and maintain but high sec merc outfits would be against that, Miners might want all refinable module drops removed from mission drop tables but mission runners would be against such a change. The list goes on and on.
The point being that there aren't that many rallying cries but you can be fairly certain if such a rallying common cause were to come into being then High sec would assert itself.
My point stands the null blocks that annoy the the butt hurt crybabies like the OP spent the better part of 5 years ignoring the CSM and only after a change was endorsed that adversely affected then did they get active. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
458
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 20:08:00 -
[193] - Quote
Null sec bias will erode the decision process of the game. There is a prevalent idea that high sec should be ruined so that they are forced out into low and null sec for the null players to kill. They will do it incrementally, examples:
- a little ore nerf here,
- an ice removal there,
- a bit more tax over here,
- drop the pay out on the Incursions,
- put data ribbons or T3 things in null rats,
- move the research and industry services to low sec
- cut high sec into four areas split buy low sec for "Role Playing reason"
Far better would be some GMs that have played the game, read the suggestions forums and are impartial. Then they can maybe finally realise that "different stroke for different folks" and just try improving each area of space according to the players that dwell there. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Skex Relbore
The Dominion of Light BLACK-MARK
78
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 20:53:00 -
[194] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Null sec bias will erode the decision process of the game. There is a prevalent idea that high sec should be ruined so that they are forced out into low and null sec for the null players to kill. They will do it incrementally, examples:
- a little ore nerf here,
- an ice removal there,
- a bit more tax over here,
- drop the pay out on the Incursions,
- put data ribbons or T3 things in null rats,
- move the research and industry services to low sec
- cut high sec into four areas split buy low sec for "Role Playing reason"
Far better would be some GMs that have played the game, read the suggestions forums and are impartial. Then they can maybe finally realise that "different stroke for different folks" and just try improving each area of space according to the players that dwell there.
No one is impartial. Anyone who claims to be in a liar. At best one can be uninterested but being impartial regarding something you're familiar with the arguments for/against is impossible unless you have absolutely no prior experiences or convictions.
The only Ore nerf I've heard suggested from this CSM (at least from the Chairman) is replacing drone poo with bounties. This would actually be a ore buff for people who harvest their ore by shooting rocks since the market is currently saturated by people who harvest their ore by shooting rats.
Considering how much pleasure The_Mittani derives from terrorizing Ice Miners I don't see him endorsing any action that would remove those targets from highsec.
The thing I consistently see pushed regarding incursions isn't a flat nerf to income potential but a balancing of different incusions so that there would be more incentive to run something other than vangards.
In fact most of the idea's you propose are not things the null blocks would care all that much about. I mean sure we'd rather be more self sufficient so we wouldn't have to spend so much time importing things out of high sec but that's a far cry from ruin high sec.
For the most part those are idea's that have been suggested/pushed by either CCP themselves (NPC tax, Removing Ice from highsec) or from low sec fail pirates.
Also the fact remains, if you have problems with the advice you see the CSM providing, your best solution would be to organize others who share your convictions and try to put your own "voice" on the panel.
Of course as wrong headed as you are about most of the things I've seen you post you'd be hard pressed to find enough fellow morons to accomplish anything. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
458
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 21:04:00 -
[195] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:... you'd be hard pressed to find enough fellows to accomplish anything.
... and yet it takes but a few minutes to find one that shares my views.
Always the little ad hominem at the end? *Shakes head disapprovingly.* Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 21:10:00 -
[196] - Quote
Its only fair that nullsec gets to dominate the CSM since its by far the most important part of Eve.
|
None ofthe Above
70
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 21:56:00 -
[197] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:
I strongly believe that "None of the Above" protest vote sends a hell of a lot stronger message than an abstention. Meanwhile, if there are good candidates, its probably better to vote for them. So I'll be voting for Hans and perhaps a few others.
You believe wrongly.
No you do. :P
Quote: None-of the above would not gain significant votes because most of the people who currently abstain do so out of a lack of interest rather than a lack of candidates.
That maybe true. My point was that abstention as an organized protest was indistinguishable from apathy. It will have no affect. If there is a significant votership that disproves strongly with what's going on here and votes None of the Above, then you have a statement. Same number of voters not voting makes no significant statement.
If there are good enough candidates and approval of the existence of the CSM, then yes it would have no effect, except to provide an opportunity to say that the electorate approved, so "Disband the CSM" types are proven to be in the minority.
I think perhaps we are working at tangents but actually agreeing, sort of.
Anyway, responses to other points to follow since forums can't handle the number of quotes required in one post...
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
|
Skex Relbore
The Dominion of Light BLACK-MARK
78
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 22:01:00 -
[198] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Skex Relbore wrote:... you'd be hard pressed to find enough fellows to accomplish anything. ... and yet it takes but a few minutes to find one that shares my views. Always the little ad hominem at the end? *Shakes head disapprovingly.*
Who? The OP, Mr I should be able to fly through your space with no risk? good luck with that. Most people who think like that end up quitting anyway so it's not like it's a massive constituency waiting to follow you.
But hey prove me wrong. Make me eat my words. hoist your petard and see if you can get enough butthurt carebears to get a seat on the CSM.
Of course you know you can't do it. That's why you come here and whine about how horrible democracy is because people who care enough to participate get a voice while whiners like yourself get marginalized and laughed at.
By the way calling someone a moron isn't automatically an ad hominem.
If I were to say you are a moron so your idea's are wrong.. that's an ad hominem.
Saying you are a moron because your ideas are wrong is not an ad hominem it's an evidence based conclusion. |
None ofthe Above
70
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 22:02:00 -
[199] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:Those who are active politically are generally the people who are dissatisfied and effected significantly enough by the status quo that the value of their time spent on affecting change is greater than their alternatives. The corollary being that those who are least active are those who are generally satisfied with the status quo. Here is a brief history lesson of how CSM6 came about. For the first 5 cycles of the CSM program the null blocks generally ignored it as being a mostly irrelevant PR whitewash by CCP in the wake of the t20 debacle. The CSM didn't significantly affect them so they pretty much ignored it. Then CSM5 said "hey removing jump bridges is a great idea" and CCP said "coolio". None ofthe Above wrote: And the current CSM is different how?
They've done essentially the same with Worm hole stabilizers, Drake nerf/refocusing/buff, and using FW as a test bed to avoid breaking null. All bad ideas greeted enthusiastically by the CSM according to the minutes.
We should be outraged and rallying behind those that take this seriously.
I'm not familiar with "worm hole stabilizers", Drakes do need adjusted and as Selene explained the idea isn't to use FW as a test bed to avoid breaking null but was instead assuming it would be more practical to get changes/improvements pushed through on one system (or at least two similar systems) than two completely different systems.
Wormhole stabilizers: device that allows nullsecers to move supercaps into wormholes and solve the "Citadel Systems" problem by making WH-space an extension of null. Essentially paving over WH space as we know it.
Drakes: No you! The idea of finding whatever is working in this game and beating it with a nerf bat until its works as poorly as everything else is misguided. Turning the Drake into a big Caracal is not going to make this game better.
And yes, I read Selene's back-pedal. Not sure I buy it. Selene may be sincere in this but I don't think Mittani is.
Skex Relbore wrote: Of course whether they are bad idea's or not is a value judgement. My point isn't whether or not removing jump bridges was/wasn't a good/bad idea but rather that until a change significantly affected the null blocks they weren't all that interested in the CSM. But once it did they banded together and worked to ensure that they weren't affected in such a way by people they consider clueless again.
If the CSM were to for instance push for the removal of concord from high sec, I suspect that the High seccers could indeed organize a response capable of changing the makeup of the CSM the same for substantial changes to wormholes.
The reason high sec players aren't currently all that influential on the CSM is because they are too diverse a group with too many divergent interests. High sec industrialists might be interested in revamping the war dec system to make wardecs harder to instigate and maintain but high sec merc outfits would be against that, Miners might want all refinable module drops removed from mission drop tables but mission runners would be against such a change. The list goes on and on.
The point being that there aren't that many rallying cries but you can be fairly certain if such a rallying common cause were to come into being then High sec would assert itself.
My point stands the null blocks that annoy the the butt hurt crybabies like the OP spent the better part of 5 years ignoring the CSM and only after a change was endorsed that adversely affected then did they get active.
Yep, time for others to get organized before they get stomped. This is the way of EVE. Calls for complacency and abstention aren't helping, or rather help the stompers not the potential stompees.
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
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Skex Relbore
The Dominion of Light BLACK-MARK
78
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 22:44:00 -
[200] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote: That maybe true. My point was that abstention as an organized protest was indistinguishable from apathy. It will have no affect. If there is a significant votership that disproves strongly with what's going on here and votes None of the Above, then you have a statement. Same number of voters not voting makes no significant statement.
If there are good enough candidates and approval of the existence of the CSM, then yes it would have no effect, except to provide an opportunity to say that the electorate approved, so "Disband the CSM" types are proven to be in the minority.
I think perhaps we are working at tangents but actually agreeing, sort of.
Anyway, responses to other points to follow since forums can't handle the number of quotes required in one post...
I understand your point and to some extend I agree with your sentiment.
I'm just pointing out that from a practical standpoint such an option would actually have no bearing on the eventual outcome of such a contest.
For one while the representatives may be selected in something resembling a democratic manner the existence of the CSM is by the sole will of CCP. CCP declared "THE CSM SHALL BE" so even if a "none of the above" option won the majority it would simply be discarded and the next runner up selected.
Even ignoring that, I still maintain that there just aren't that many people who are interested in the process yet are unwilling to get behind some candidate or another because most of those abstaining aren't doing so in protest, they're doing so because they can't be arsed to pay attention.
I know it's only natural to assume that because you think a thing that there must be some silent army out there who agree with you, but most the time that just isn't the case.
Consider this, only a very small minority of the player base cares enough to even bother reading the forums, of that minority only a small minority bother following the CSM elections at all. Of that tiny minority only a vanishingly small minority support your "non of the above" option.
I mean if you really want to lodge a protest vote just vote for one of the joke candidates and be done with it. Or hell just do a Richard Pryor from Brewster's Millions and run your own joke campaign. You have the name for it after all.
Oh wait you did, just missed it at first since your candidacy post is sitting on page 3, Which should give you a decent indicator on how much good such an option on the ballot would do.
You couldn't even garner the 100 votes needed to get on the ballot after the Goons were told to go support every long shot troll to put up a candidacy in order to dilute the butthurt vote. and if you can't get as many votes for you as the joke candidates like Xenuria or the racists like Fon Revedhort what makes you think there are enough people who'd be bothered to vote "none of the above" to affect anything?
|
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Jenshae Chiroptera
458
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 23:13:00 -
[201] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote: Drakes: No you! The idea of finding whatever is working in this game and beating it with a nerf bat until its works as poorly as everything else is misguided. Turning the Drake into a big Caracal is not going to make this game better. .
This was one of the things I discussed in a thread and I started out with "nerf the Drake" however, we came around to agreeing that we need to buff the tier 1 battle cruisers so that there are no tiers.
Drake in my opinion is a bit over powered for what it is, gets more tank than a battleship, however, I thought it could do with maybe a three percent instead of a five percent resists bonus. Just knock its tank down a bit then give its damage a bit of a boost so that it goes to maybe 550 DPS average instead of 512.
Skex Relbore wrote: Even ignoring that, I still maintain that there just aren't that many people who are interested in the process yet are unwilling to get behind some candidate or another because most of those abstaining aren't doing so in protest, they're doing so because they can't be arsed to pay attention.
I agree with you to a point. There are a lot of people that I talk to, who look at the CSM, sneer and say that they are still PR rubbish or that EVE is a game and when the CSM ruins it they will just go onto the next one. They don't want anything to do with the politics and don't care about the candidates. A strong theme is that they seem to feel that players being involved is like the accountant standing over the mechanic while he works on the car and telling him how to do his job. We are players, not game designers.
However, the largest sentiment is "Why bother? We can't change anything with our votes." So, I am lobbying for them to at the very least have a way to show they aren't apathetic and that they believe that the CSM or the people running for it are not what they want.
Even if it is a dismal failure and only one percent of the votes went into an abstain / dismiss / ignore this years candidates / suspend for a year and a list of other options at least they would have had the chance to vote in some opposing stance, then blame can rest squarely on the players' shoulders. "CCP you ruined the game!" - "No, we gave you the opportunity and you did not speak up."
---
As for running for CSM? EVE already takes up far too much time and I am quite weary of MMOs. I put a lot of time and effort into Anarchy Online, I was talking to the developers on a nearly daily basis, still am with some. I ran events and I worked with the volunteers (similar to ISD) at one point they were considering me to work on their databases as an employee but the Oslo to Montreal move came up and their recruitment policies changed. I also ran two organisations that would be on about the level of EWOKs, known and moderately successful server wide.
... and quite honestly, I just don't have the enthusiasm any more. I am jaded from the years of playing MMOs and all the different ones that I have been in.
I joked about running for CSM and I think I could get in with just one line, "If you hate one of the candidates - then vote for and inflict me on them for a year." Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
None ofthe Above
70
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 23:38:00 -
[202] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote: I'm just pointing out that from a practical standpoint such an option would actually have no bearing on the eventual outcome of such a contest.
For one while the representatives may be selected in something resembling a democratic manner the existence of the CSM is by the sole will of CCP. CCP declared "THE CSM SHALL BE" so even if a "none of the above" option won the majority it would simply be discarded and the next runner up selected.
Ah sure. If they decided the meaning of that ballot winning would be set aside, then it would have no bearing on the makeup of the CSM. It would just look pretty stupid.
Other ways to deal with a none of the above "win" would be to clear out the election take a good look at what you are doing, make some changes and try again.
Quote: Even ignoring that, I still maintain that there just aren't that many people who are interested in the process yet are unwilling to get behind some candidate or another because most of those abstaining aren't doing so in protest, they're doing so because they can't be arsed to pay attention.
I know it's only natural to assume that because you think a thing that there must be some silent army out there who agree with you, but most the time that just isn't the case.
You may have me confused with the OP. I am here discussing how to frame the call for action for the OP to get what is desired if the silent army exists that agrees with her. I had another agenda with my candidacy which I don't feel I need to elaborate here as it's off topic.
My agenda here is to largely tell people to vote in the CSM election and dissuade people from abstaining as a misguided attempt to send a message.
Quote: Consider this, only a very small minority of the player base cares enough to even bother reading the forums, of that minority only a small minority bother following the CSM elections at all. Of that tiny minority only a vanishingly small minority support your "non of the above" option.
I mean if you really want to lodge a protest vote just vote for one of the joke candidates and be done with it. Or hell just do a Richard Pryor from Brewster's Millions and run your own joke campaign. You have the name for it after all.
Oh wait you did, just missed it at first since your candidacy post is sitting on page 3, Which should give you a decent indicator on how much good such an option on the ballot would do.
You couldn't even garner the 100 votes needed to get on the ballot after the Goons were told to go support every long shot troll to put up a candidacy in order to dilute the butthurt vote. and if you can't get as many votes for you as the joke candidates like Xenuria or the racists like Fon Revedhort what makes you think there are enough people who'd be bothered to vote "none of the above" to affect anything?
Yep, quite right. I missed the first wave of goon likes entering too late as I deliberated. When I entered, I entered with a big question mark, asking if I was needed. Fon is interesting since he entered after I did, but had a compelling enough addition to the circus to still bring out the goon vote.
It turns out the goons don't want None of the Above. I find that interesting in itself, but yes not enough other people wanted it, so likely not going to happen.
I am okay with that since I've found candidates I can get behind.
I don't find it however, a compelling argument against including an actual "None of the Above" vote. Your arguments are somewhat circular in nature and don't hold water to me.
If CCP wanted to "dare to be bold", they'd include it and bet on the vote validating their position. If None of the Above ever did win, it would be a wake up call that some retooling was needed.
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10224
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 00:26:00 -
[203] - Quote
Why would CCP want to "dare to be bold," in the first place?
It's a catch phrase that sounds good, not an actual guiding tenet of their business practice. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar; Space Friend to All Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
None ofthe Above
70
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 00:32:00 -
[204] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Why would CCP want to "dare to be bold," in the first place?
It's a catch phrase that sounds good, not an actual guiding tenet of their business practice.
Surely the incomparable Lyris Nairn can come up with a better contribution to this thread than this bitter vet cynical snark?
During campaign season even?
Take it back and try again.
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
|
None ofthe Above
70
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 00:37:00 -
[205] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:None ofthe Above wrote: Drakes: No you! The idea of finding whatever is working in this game and beating it with a nerf bat until its works as poorly as everything else is misguided. Turning the Drake into a big Caracal is not going to make this game better. .
This was one of the things I discussed in a thread and I started out with "nerf the Drake" however, we came around to agreeing that we need to buff the tier 1 battle cruisers so that there are no tiers. Drake in my opinion is a bit over powered for what it is, gets more tank than a battleship, however, I thought it could do with maybe a three percent instead of a five percent resists bonus. Just knock its tank down a bit then give its damage a bit of a boost so that it goes to maybe 550 DPS average instead of 512.
Almost where I could agree with you and then you restart your nerf Drake thread, pretty much from scratch. Ugh, not going to engage.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Skex Relbore wrote: Even ignoring that, I still maintain that there just aren't that many people who are interested in the process yet are unwilling to get behind some candidate or another because most of those abstaining aren't doing so in protest, they're doing so because they can't be arsed to pay attention.
I agree with you to a point. There are a lot of people that I talk to, who look at the CSM, sneer and say that they are still PR rubbish or that EVE is a game and when the CSM ruins it they will just go onto the next one. They don't want anything to do with the politics and don't care about the candidates. A strong theme is that they seem to feel that players being involved is like the accountant standing over the mechanic while he works on the car and telling him how to do his job. We are players, not game designers. However, the largest sentiment is "Why bother? We can't change anything with our votes." So, I am lobbying for them to at the very least have a way to show they aren't apathetic and that they believe that the CSM or the people running for it are not what they want. Even if it is a dismal failure and only one percent of the votes went into an abstain / dismiss / ignore this years candidates / suspend for a year and a list of other options at least they would have had the chance to vote in some opposing stance, then blame can rest squarely on the players' shoulders. "CCP you ruined the game!" - "No, we gave you the opportunity and you did not speak up." --- As for running for CSM? EVE already takes up far too much time and I am quite weary of MMOs. I put a lot of time and effort into Anarchy Online, I was talking to the developers on a nearly daily basis, still am with some. I ran events and I worked with the volunteers (similar to ISD) at one point they were considering me to work on their databases as an employee but the Oslo to Montreal move came up and their recruitment policies changed. I also ran two organisations that would be on about the level of EWOKs, known and moderately successful server wide. ... and quite honestly, I just don't have the enthusiasm any more. I am jaded from the years of playing MMOs and all the different ones that I have been in. I joked about running for CSM and I think I could get in with just one line, "If you hate one of the candidates - then vote for and inflict me on them for a year."
Oh so you actually are burned out and apathetic. My mistake, I thought you passionately looking to find a way to make a difference.
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=795254
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10224
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 01:15:00 -
[206] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:Why would CCP want to "dare to be bold," in the first place?
It's a catch phrase that sounds good, not an actual guiding tenet of their business practice. Surely the incomparable Lyris Nairn can come up with a better contribution to this thread than this bitter vet cynical snark? During campaign season even? Take it back and try again. There's nothing bitter about calling a spade a spade. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar; Space Friend to All Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10224
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 01:16:00 -
[207] - Quote
"Elegant" is just an inelegant word meaning "simple". Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar; Space Friend to All Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM7. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
458
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 23:39:00 -
[208] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote: Oh so you actually are burned out and apathetic. My mistake, I thought you passionately looking to find a way to make a difference.
I am as this highlight points out
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Even if it is a dismal failure and only one percent of the votes went into an abstain / dismiss / ignore this years candidates / suspend for a year and a list of other options at least they would have had the chance to vote in some opposing stance, then blame can rest squarely on the players' shoulders. "CCP you ruined the game!" - "No, we gave you the opportunity and you did not speak up."
Trying to create the opportunity for others to be heard and make a difference. Little steps
Replies are going to be short from today, for awhile - I was in hospital and typing is now difficult. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
JitaJolie
Paradox Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 23:52:00 -
[209] - Quote
I would consider using one of my accounts to cast a no confidence vote on a particular candidate. perhaps it is not furthering democracy but rather saying "I don't care who you pick, just not 'this' guy" |
None ofthe Above
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 23:54:00 -
[210] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:None ofthe Above wrote: Oh so you actually are burned out and apathetic. My mistake, I thought you passionately looking to find a way to make a difference.
I am as this highlight points out Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Even if it is a dismal failure and only one percent of the votes went into an abstain / dismiss / ignore this years candidates / suspend for a year and a list of other options at least they would have had the chance to vote in some opposing stance, then blame can rest squarely on the players' shoulders. "CCP you ruined the game!" - "No, we gave you the opportunity and you did not speak up."
Trying to create the opportunity for others to be heard and make a difference. Little steps Replies are going to be short from today, for awhile - I was in hospital and typing is now difficult.
Sorry to hear about the hospital trip, hope you get better soon.
As for the topic of this thread, I maintain that your proposal hinders anyone who follows it to be heard. Anyone following it is literally not "speaking up".
I would encourage anyone who is unhappy with the existence and/or form of the CSM to vote for Tiger Would
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=66277
At this point, its the only real protest vote worth considering, and not voting sends no message. It gets lost in the sea of apathy that is the general rule of the EVE playerbase.
Even None ofthe Above supports Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7! |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
458
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 00:00:00 -
[211] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote: I would encourage anyone who is unhappy with the existence and/or form of the CSM to vote for Tiger Would .
My post is voting as for your suggestion I see it as fuelling a broken system.
Thoughts / suspicions, "Tiger is a trick and when he is in CSM nothing holds him to his promises." Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
None ofthe Above
78
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 02:58:00 -
[212] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:None ofthe Above wrote: I would encourage anyone who is unhappy with the existence and/or form of the CSM to vote for Tiger Would .
My post is voting as for your suggestion I see it as fuelling a broken system. Thoughts / suspicions, "Tiger is a trick and when he is in CSM nothing holds him to his promises."
It doesn't really matter on some levels what Tiger does or does not do. Could he be worse than what happens when you don't vote? Possibly, but no real indication of that.
More importantly: The message would already have been sent, which is what you where trying to accomplish anyway, yes?
In the end, its your choice, even if you make one I can't really comprehend. Just wanted to make the argument.
Hope you recover from whatever is ailing you quickly.
Even None ofthe Above supports Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7! |
None ofthe Above
78
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 03:03:00 -
[213] - Quote
Oh and for the record...
... I support the inclusion of Abstain, a binding None of the Above, and Request to Disband options.
But while they are not there, I encourage everyone to vote their favorite candidate (Hans, FTW) or Tiger Would as a protest vote.
Even None ofthe Above supports Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7! |
Jenshae Chiroptera
458
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 12:22:00 -
[214] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:Oh and for the record... ... I support the inclusion of Abstain, a binding None of the Above, and Request to Disband options. .
Added suspend to OP bullet points.
Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Jenshae Chiroptera
459
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 23:53:00 -
[215] - Quote
Have I won?
Almost half a day without any Kittens playing with this thread.
Give the wildest conspiracy reasons why they are suddenly keeping quiet! Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.02.23 00:14:00 -
[216] - Quote
Got bored? Busy being blown up?
Ooh, I got one. Don't give a damn anymore. Sort of like a forums-based version of apathy. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Jenshae Chiroptera
459
|
Posted - 2012.02.23 00:37:00 -
[217] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Got bored? Busy being blown up?
Ooh, I got one. Don't give a damn anymore. Sort of like a forums-based version of apathy.
Those are too obvious. I said, "wild conspiracies" Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Jenshae Chiroptera
459
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 15:40:00 -
[218] - Quote
What a surprise, at a glance, Test Alliance x2 , Noir, Volition Cult, AAA, Goons x2, Pandemic x2, xxDeath, Razor, Darkside - another year to look forward to with null sec dominance of CSM.
*sigh.* I get so tired of being Cassandra
Quote: ... grant her the gift of prophecy. ... ... placed a curse on her so that no one would ever believe her predictions. She is a figure both of the epic tradition and of tragedy, where her combination of deep understanding and powerlessness exemplify the ironic condition of humankind ...
At least, when people slowly start waking up and crying all over the place, I can use this to rub their faces in it. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
None ofthe Above
79
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 15:46:00 -
[219] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:What a surprise, at a glance, Test Alliance x2 , Noir, Volition Cult, AAA, Goons x2, Pandemic x2, xxDeath, Razor, Darkside - another year to look forward to with null sec dominance of CSM. *sigh.* I get so tired of being CassandraQuote: ... grant her the gift of prophecy. ... ... placed a curse on her so that no one would ever believe her predictions. She is a figure both of the epic tradition and of tragedy, where her combination of deep understanding and powerlessness exemplify the ironic condition of humankind ...
At least, when people slowly start waking up and crying all over the place, I can use this to rub their faces in it.
Is that the goal?
Cause, sorry to say, a CSM that doesn't represent you is a self-fulfilling prophecy when you are preaching abstention.
Even None ofthe Above supports Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7! |
Jenshae Chiroptera
459
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 16:10:00 -
[220] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote: Is that the goal?
Cause, sorry to say, a CSM that doesn't represent you is a self-fulfilling prophecy when you are preaching abstention.
CSM removal and compromise with "These people do not represent me."
GMs would be more impartial, especially since they usually apply for a public relations and not a gaming job. They could play in Jove space to get the hang of the game and understand which ideas are good to put forward from the forums., while greeting new players. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 17:15:00 -
[221] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:What a surprise, at a glance, Test Alliance x2 , Noir, Volition Cult, AAA, Goons x2, Pandemic x2, xxDeath, Razor, Darkside - another year to look forward to with null sec dominance of CSM. ] Sounds like a rockin' time in the next CSM.
Don't forget the like 100 highsec candidates. We made sure there were as low as possible barriers to entry! Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
130
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 17:31:00 -
[222] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Don't forget the like 100 highsec candidates. We made sure there were as low as possible barriers to entry!
In a way, you could say that just about any of them is equivalent to a "None of the above" vote! |
Franklin D Roosevelt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
52
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 18:00:00 -
[223] - Quote
Is this a candidacy thread? I want to like it only if it will further dilute the candidate pool. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
459
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 21:35:00 -
[224] - Quote
Franklin D Roosevelt wrote:Is this a candidacy thread? I want to like it only if it will further dilute the candidate pool.
No, it would probably have more people voting but less of the votes would go to players generally. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
None ofthe Above
81
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 21:39:00 -
[225] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:None ofthe Above wrote: Is that the goal?
Cause, sorry to say, a CSM that doesn't represent you is a self-fulfilling prophecy when you are preaching abstention.
CSM removal and compromise with "These people do not represent me." GMs would be more impartial, especially since they usually apply for a public relations and not a gaming job. They could play in Jove space to get the hang of the game and understand which ideas are good to put forward from the forums., while greeting new players.
Ummm wut?
How did GMs and Jove space come into this?
Still say vote Tiger Would, best choice for you, and the folk that agree with you.
Even None ofthe Above supports Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7! |
Jenshae Chiroptera
459
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 21:42:00 -
[226] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote: Ummm wut?
How did GMs and Jove space come into this?.
They would do the CSM job properly without the meta-gaming garbage. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
None ofthe Above
81
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 22:00:00 -
[227] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:None ofthe Above wrote: Ummm wut?
How did GMs and Jove space come into this?.
They would do the CSM job properly without the meta-gaming garbage.
What do you think the CSM's job is?
Its a delegation of players elected to a council to sift through player suggestions, present them to CCP and act as a focus group for NDA'ed proposals from CCP. How would the GMs do that job?
Even None ofthe Above supports Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7! |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1661
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 23:57:00 -
[228] - Quote
Pubbies mad about space democracy itt The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
459
|
Posted - 2012.02.25 03:29:00 -
[229] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote: What do you think the CSM's job is? How would the GMs do that job?
Its to sift through player suggestions, present them to CCP and act as a focus group for NDA'ed proposals from CCP.
Almost answered yourself.
Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
165
|
Posted - 2012.02.25 03:40:00 -
[230] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Pubbies mad about space democracy itt Space politics, meh. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
462
|
Posted - 2012.02.25 14:42:00 -
[231] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote:Pubbies mad about space democracy itt Space politics, meh.
Space politics, in the air. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Jenshae Chiroptera
462
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 16:11:00 -
[232] - Quote
When ever I go to first warp in a Hurricane, I think of this. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5479
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 22:55:00 -
[233] - Quote
hey, you just got kicked out of your alliance and awoxed for being annoying and posting threads like this
i guess you could say... ~democracy does not work~
The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Eli Grange
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 23:03:00 -
[234] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:hey, you just got kicked out of your alliance and awoxed for being annoying and posting threads like this
i guess you could say... ~democracy does not work~
http://pastebin.com/20s9J0Aj |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2529
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 23:09:00 -
[235] - Quote
well this thread just rocketed into the amazingsphere |
Pandares
hindsight is 20-20
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 23:19:00 -
[236] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Two step wrote:What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? exception proves the rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule Thank you for posting. It drives me crazy when people use this to avoid looking at data rationally. Most misunderstood idiom.
Anyone with half a brain would know that an exception actually disproves a rule. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
462
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 23:26:00 -
[237] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:hey, you just got kicked out of your alliance and awoxed for being annoying and posting threads like this
i guess you could say... ~democracy does not work~
If I had been kicked out then there would be a NPC corp in my recent employment history and if I was awoxed [killed by people in same fleet] then there would be a kill mail no doubt being used to try and rub my face in it.
Fortunately, there are still some decent people in this world who were good enough to give me the heads up.
Three mails exist so far and my two were sent because I had this stupid hope that they could address their internal problems and thrive instead of constantly bleeding members. Anyway, washing my hands of the matter, time to look forward.
Null Sec really that boring for you guys to be looking for stories about the peasants?
Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Pandares
hindsight is 20-20
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 23:28:00 -
[238] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Status: Taking a break
Real life really that boring for you to be looking for stories about Eve? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
462
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 23:33:00 -
[239] - Quote
Pandares wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Status: Taking a break
Real life really that boring for you to be looking for stories about Eve?
Aww ... aren't you cute! Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1684
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 23:40:00 -
[240] - Quote
To me it looks like Jenshae is saying we should cancel the election and keep the current CSM in place. The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
|
Skye Aurorae
No Bull Ships
183
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 17:44:00 -
[241] - Quote
I you really want to protest the system then vote for a 7 year old girl! Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21, so.. Vote for Scott Manley / Skye Aurorae for CSM 7 An Expert in Dealing with Childish Arguments Over Toys. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=68506 |
Jenshae Chiroptera
462
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:16:00 -
[242] - Quote
Well there is the civil method and making a joke out of it; either might accomplish the same ends.
Real thing to fear is when you are joking then they take you serious, suddenly, one day you log in and they have implemented magical space unicorns, pixies and fairies that shoot sparkles, rainbows and flowers at each other in place of ships and shooting effects.
Would make a great April Fool's joke though. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
36
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 07:43:00 -
[243] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:Stll, there is no better alternative to democracy, except a dictatorship with me as the dictator. There is. You simply need to look at the weaknesses of a system then look at improvements. For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election There are theoretical systems that have not been tried yet. One reason being that they threaten the way that democracy currently controls people while giving them a placebo "feel good" affect.
how do you measure competency? We all do, just to different standards.
there is something to be said for dictatorships, they get stuff done |
Jenshae Chiroptera
462
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 22:37:00 -
[244] - Quote
Snowflake Tem wrote: how do you measure competency? We all do, just to different standards.
there is something to be said for dictatorships, they get stuff done
Minister of Transport that studied history and political science, sit in the back with a newspaper while driven, never did logistics, worked in the traffic department and can not even change a tire - would you consider that a ringing endorsement of competency? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 02:51:00 -
[245] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Snowflake Tem wrote:how do you measure competency? We all do, just to different standards.
there is something to be said for dictatorships, they get stuff done Minister of Transport that studied history and political science, sit in the back with a newspaper while driven, never did logistics, worked in the traffic department and can not even change a tire - would you consider that a ringing endorsement of competency? I was thinking about us.
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Jenshae Chiroptera
463
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 20:49:00 -
[246] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote:Re: Regarding CSM elections. From: CCP Xhagen Sent: 2012.02.29 15:26 To: CCP ####, Jenshae Chiroptera,
Hi Jenshae Chiroptera.
I've read your post and while I understand your points, they can be made about any form of election and/or information gathering of this nature.
The CSM is far from being the only source of information CCP uses, while it is (undoubtedly) the most prominent one.
I also want to correct you on one thing - there is an "Abstain" option for the CSM elections. If you look up the devblogs giving the results from the previous elections you'll see us specifically stating how many players voted "Abstain"
Cheers, Xhagen
Quote:From: Jenshae Chiroptera To: CCP Xhagen
Apologies, I must have misread it as I thought that was a count of active members that would not vote.
Also, I am lacking the term or word that I want to convey, which is, "Sure, have the CSM but know that declare most definitely that none of them represent me as players will always be too biased and steer games into a gradual long term decline."
Well a response at least. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 21:43:00 -
[247] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Well a response at least.
I'm impressed with how civil the staff are with the 1424th random pubbie who wants to mouth off about how unfair their Free Vacations for Space Nerds program is. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
463
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 21:47:00 -
[248] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Well a response at least. I'm impressed with how civil the staff are with the 1424th random pubbie who wants to mouth off about how unfair their Free Vacations for Space Nerds program is.
Probably because I am not saying that?
Go ahead, have a party, inflate their egos but ultimately pay them lip service, as they are not good for EVE. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 21:54:00 -
[249] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Probably because I am not saying that? Go ahead, have a party, inflate their egos but ultimately pay them lip service, as they are not good for EVE.
yet, there's all that **** in the OP |
Jenshae Chiroptera
463
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 21:56:00 -
[250] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote: yet, there's all that **** in the OP
Need help with it? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
|
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 21:57:00 -
[251] - Quote
no thanks theres a copy right here
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:What a surprise, at a glance, Test Alliance x2 , Noir, Volition Cult, AAA, Goons x2, Pandemic x2, xxDeath, Razor, Darkside - another year to look forward to with null sec dominance of CSM. GMs would be more impartial, especially since they usually apply for a public relations and not a gaming job. They could play in Jove space to get the hang of the game and understand which ideas are good to put forward from the forums., while greeting new players. During the course of this thread, I have come to a realisation; that I have no faith in the CSM. I can understand the intentions of CCP in starting the CSM. However, the problem is that is has become a tool of meta-gaming both in terms of alliance status and in terms of trying to manipulate the game for short sighted reasons. Candidates stand and are voted for based on sides, interests and bias. Thus, I believe that CSM detriment to EVE far out weighs any benefit and request the following voting options:
- Abstain /suspend - actively declaring no confidence in the candidates or CSM and possibly having no CSM for a year.
- Removal - believing that the system is irredeemable and should be withdrawn entirely.
See, the problem might not be that people are too lazy to vote. They simply don't want any of those people involved in the decision process of their game. We should have the option to say, "I do not support this system and or group," or, "These people do not represent me." As a reply: "For now, the votes are similar to these 'Like' buttons. People can only say that they agree, they have no voice to say that they disagree or do not like who is being put forward" --------- Original post below. --------- There are some fundamental problems with democracy. Tribes or groups of people will vote for a particular person associated with them. For example, in South Africa, the Zulus, which is the largest group always vote for the ANC party which comprises of people from their tribe. They will even vote in a new leader who has forcefully removed the previous leader before the end of his term and is up on corruption, arms dealing and indecent assault charges prior to the election. Null sec voting blocks. Your control as a voter is usually an illusion.Even in the best of conditions, your choices narrow down to only a few candidates that are usually chosen for you. You do not get to elect the entire bureaucracy, who make the day to day decisions. You have no recourse if those people do not follow through with their promises and have only told you what you wanted to hear. There is no "neither" option on the ballots. CCP developers and the CSM system. Money and propaganda machines.There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays. Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable. Charisma is not the same as aptitude.Politicians are not required to undergo IQ or personality tests. They do not have to write particular exams or prove their competency. All they simply have to do is convince you to vote for them. Alliance or corporation leader are not necessarily good CSM material. TangentsThere seems to be a growing tendency to destroy high security and worm hole space. There seems to be large vocal groups who instead of working as people to improve their social groups or to get their area of space made better for them, seek only to sabotage the other options so that people are left with no other choice than to go out there and be slaughtered as victims. I would like to see areas being improved for the people that are there and enjoy that play style instead of breaking things to force others there. There are some individuals that you might think are okay or that you like but have a look at the groups that they lead. They wouldn't be leading them if they were not liked and are similar to those people. Edit: The system produces particular results. Player desires ruin games. Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Meanwhile, I am saying that this process / system produces useless people and results, which may mislead CCP. Killer Gandry wrote:I do understand where the fear comes from when discussing the option of an active abstain button.
It could actually show there are more people against the circus called "CSM" than there are pro-CSM people. As such the "glorious" position of chairman or woman wouldn't be as shiney as some try to call out anymore.
JusFooling Around wrote:... CCP has to realize that the only people represented by the CSM are the ones who voted, so the smaller the field of voters, the smaller the value of the CSM becomes. Yeah, CCP - hire the pros and get a first class marketing firm as that guy said a few pages back. This whole "high school student government" experiment has proven itself useless. Just recognize the voter turnout for what it is - a small portion of the player base wanting to impose their views on the vast majority of the players who don't choose to play the part of the game they think we should. ... JitaJolie wrote:I would consider using one of my accounts to cast a no confidence vote on a particular candidate.
|
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 22:00:00 -
[252] - Quote
seriously, what did you make me read
e; sorry, allow me to contribute. just a little
you actually think there's
Quote:There seems to be a growing tendency to destroy high security and worm hole space. There seems to be large vocal groups who instead of working as people to improve their social groups or to get their area of space made better for them, seek only to sabotage the other options so that people are left with no other choice than to go out there and be slaughtered as victims.
and that
Quote:There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.
and a whole lot of
Quote:The system is flawed because I know my special snowflake candidate won't get elected!
that last one was fake. i made it. can you tell?
e2; an abstain option is cool i guess, why the hell not vOv |
Jenshae Chiroptera
463
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 22:27:00 -
[253] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote:Quote:The system is flawed because I know my special snowflake candidate won't get elected! that last one was fake. i made it. can you tell? e2; an abstain option is cool i guess, why the hell not vOv
System is flawed because game after game is dying when they listen to a vocal minority.
GMs = impartial assessment as it is just work to them with no extra gain depending on what is changed. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 00:06:00 -
[254] - Quote
you're right, eve is dying(is it?) because someone(hopefully us!) killed your retriever. it's also the csm's fault for not making pvp a bannable offence.
remember! nullsec players want to kill all of highsec! even wormholes!!!
on a related but still terrible note, did you just accuse the largest alliances in the game of paying members to **** up forums? i think you did.
Quote:There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
463
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 00:14:00 -
[255] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote:you're right, eve is dying(is it?) because someone(hopefully us!) killed your retriever. it's also the csm's fault for not making pvp a bannable offence. remember! nullsec players want to kill all of highsec! even wormholes!!! on a related but still terrible note, did you just accuse the largest alliances in the game of paying members to **** up forums? i think you did. Quote:There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.
There is no way other than deliberately for you to be this obtuse. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 00:31:00 -
[256] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Sir Marksalot wrote:you're right, eve is dying(is it?) because someone(hopefully us!) killed your retriever. it's also the csm's fault for not making pvp a bannable offence. remember! nullsec players want to kill all of highsec! even wormholes!!! on a related but still terrible note, did you just accuse the largest alliances in the game of paying members to **** up forums? i think you did. Quote:There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable. There is no way other than deliberately for you to be this obtuse.
there, i bolded the part where you pulled things out of your ass and said that alliances are paying people for votes
Sir Marksalot wrote:you're right, eve is dying(is it?) because someone(hopefully us!) killed your retriever. it's also the csm's fault for not making pvp a bannable offence.
remember! nullsec players want to kill all of highsec! even wormholes!!!
on a related but still terrible note, did you just accuse the largest alliances in the game of paying members to **** up forums? i think you did.
it's almost like i'm making things up on this part isn't it? (it's what you're doing)
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
208
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 03:54:00 -
[257] - Quote
Quote:Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable. [/quote] I think that person thinks we mine ice watching the miner go pew pew at the ice, instead of alt-tabbing to the forums.
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
198
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 05:29:00 -
[258] - Quote
We actually have forum ops with FCs telling us what to post on Teamspeak, and our alliance runs a post replacement program for posts that get deleted by CCP Phantom.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
208
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 05:30:00 -
[259] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:We actually have forum ops with FCs telling us what to post on Teamspeak, and our alliance runs a post replacement program for posts that get deleted by CCP Phantom. They're actually reimburseable, wow! Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Jenshae Chiroptera
463
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 10:00:00 -
[260] - Quote
More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.
ALT + Tab? Only have one screen? -.^ Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
200
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 13:27:00 -
[261] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.
I have to admit there's a part of me that would love to see the world through your eyes just long enough to get an idea of what it's like for you.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
464
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 13:35:00 -
[262] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.
I have to admit there's a part of me that would love to see the world through your eyes just long enough to get an idea of what it's like for you.
Talk with me long enough, the insanity is contagious. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Franklin D Roosevelt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 21:13:00 -
[263] - Quote
- Abstain /suspend - actively declaring no confidence in the candidates or CSM and possibly having no CSM for a year.
- Removal - believing that the system is irredeemable and should be withdrawn entirely.
See, the problem might not be that people are too lazy to vote. They simply don't want any of those people involved in the decision process of their game.
We should have the option to say, "I do not support this system and or group," or, "These people do not represent me."
As a reply: "For now, the votes are similar to these 'Like' buttons. People can only say that they agree, they have no voice to say that they disagree or do not like who is being put forward"
--------- Original post below. ---------
There are some fundamental problems with democracy.
Tribes or groups of people will vote for a particular person associated with them.
For example, in South Africa, the Zulus, which is the largest group always vote for the ANC party which comprises of people from their tribe. They will even vote in a new leader who has forcefully removed the previous leader before the end of his term and is up on corruption, arms dealing and indecent assault charges prior to the election.
Null sec voting blocks.
Your control as a voter is usually an illusion.
Even in the best of conditions, your choices narrow down to only a few candidates that are usually chosen for you. You do not get to elect the entire bureaucracy, who make the day to day decisions. You have no recourse if those people do not follow through with their promises and have only told you what you wanted to hear. There is no "neither" option on the ballots.
CCP developers and the CSM system.
Money and propaganda machines.
There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.
Charisma is not the same as aptitude.
Politicians are not required to undergo IQ or personality tests. They do not have to write particular exams or prove their competency. All they simply have to do is convince you to vote for them.
Alliance or corporation leader are not necessarily good CSM material.
Tangents
There seems to be a growing tendency to destroy high security and worm hole space. There seems to be large vocal groups who instead of working as people to improve their social groups or to get their area of space made better for them, seek only to sabotage the other options so that people are left with no other choice than to go out there and be slaughtered as victims.
I would like to see areas being improved for the people that are there and enjoy that play style instead of breaking things to force others there.
There are some individuals that you might think are okay or that you like but have a look at the groups that they lead. They wouldn't be leading them if they were not liked and are similar to those people.
Edit:
The system produces particular results. Player desires ruin games.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Meanwhile, I am saying that this process / system produces useless people and results, which may mislead CCP.
Killer Gandry wrote:I do understand where the fear comes from when discussing the option of an active abstain button.
It could actually show there are more people against the circus called "CSM" than there are pro-CSM people. As such the "glorious" position of chairman or woman wouldn't be as shiney as some try to call out anymore.
JusFooling Around wrote:... CCP has to realize that the only people represented by the CSM are the ones who voted, so the smaller the field of voters, the smaller the value of the CSM becomes. Yeah, CCP - hire the pros and get a first class marketing firm as that guy said a few pages back. This whole "high school student government" experiment has proven itself useless. Just recognize the voter turnout for what it is - a small portion of the player base wanting to impose their views on the vast majority of the players who don't choose to play the part of the game they think we should. ...
JitaJolie wrote:I would consider using one of my accounts to cast a no confidence vote on a particular candidate. [/quote] I agree with everything here... +10000 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
212
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 07:26:00 -
[264] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.
I have to admit there's a part of me that would love to see the world through your eyes just long enough to get an idea of what it's like for you. They don't realize we win more by not logging in.
And in some cases, EVE-O forums might not rank much higher than logging in.
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 09:59:00 -
[265] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked
you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you
You should quit Eve and come back again when you are a bit more mature. |
Korah Arnelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 10:28:00 -
[266] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Two step wrote:What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected? exception proves the rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule
Technically, exceptions prove the exception. Just being a logic nerd on this, sorry. :) |
Jenshae Chiroptera
464
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 12:39:00 -
[267] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you You should quit Eve and come back again when you are a bit more mature. I suspect that is not possible for them due to some limitations:
Quote:A person deformed and mentally handicapped due to a congenital thyroid deficiency.
Korah Arnelle wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote: exception proves the rule
Technically, exceptions prove the exception. Just being a logic nerd on this, sorry. :) You can make this go on forever but the basic point is that the way EVE is made fragments the majority and creates strong minority voting blocks. Thus even if the representation could be working as intended there would still be 20 -30 percent of the delegates representing 50 - 70 percent of the players. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 06:11:00 -
[268] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:You can make this go on forever but the basic point is that the way EVE is made fragments the majority and creates strong minority voting blocks. Thus even if the representation could be working as intended there would still be 20 -30 percent of the delegates representing 50 - 70 percent of the players. so just what the hell do you it is that the csm does anyway?
do you really think that eve is evenly divided by certain activities and the people that like each one? or is this one of those things where you assume that as a highsec veldspar explorer a 'nullsec guy' could never effectively represent you because they dont understand the finer nuances of how absolutely terrible, boring, and worthless mining is? in which case get over it
alternatively you make riverini sound super intelligent |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 06:14:00 -
[269] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.
ALT + Tab? Only have one screen? -.^
you dont need isk to have your voice heard you colossal dumbass
this is not a real life election with real life money being spent on real life people buying real life advertisements
edit:
for every doublepost i make mittens gives me a drake |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
213
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 08:56:00 -
[270] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote:edit:
for every doublepost i make mittens gives me a drake So you're posting on the forums to get in game benefits.
Sounds like a meta game to me
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
464
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Posted - 2012.03.04 21:04:00 -
[271] - Quote
Yes, I only mine Veldspar in high sec. That good pirate standing? I must have found a secret mining station of theirs and those worm hole kill mails are fake because I mine them to death and would never be in another ship.
However, this has nothing to do with me as a player. I am saying that the whole CSM is bad because it has players in it when it would be better run by GMs.
Vocal minorities destroy games and giving them a soap box is the worst thing a game company can do. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
61
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Posted - 2012.03.04 21:33:00 -
[272] - Quote
End result ot the debate is that there are players who wish for an active "none of the above" option as to let CCP see howmany would actually vote that and take that into their calculations. CSM candidates feel threatened?
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Jenshae Chiroptera
467
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Posted - 2012.03.07 15:46:00 -
[273] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:End result ot the debate is that there are players who wish for an active "none of the above" option as to let CCP see howmany would actually vote that and take that into their calculations. CSM candidates feel threatened?
Why is there so many "Like" with no "Dislike" options across the web? Games where any idiot need only apply time, grind and then be "uber"?
People do not handle criticism or failure well any more. They do not want challenges as they live sheltered little lives. Companies see ways to inflate the feelings and egos of their target market then cash in on that.
Just read the articles with quotes from after the Jita protests, "we were going from strength to strength and could not handle this set back well." (paraphrased) They had become complacent and shrouded in their belief of succeeding. "Just wait until you see this WiS stuff, it will blow you socks off!" Was there thought to contingencies? An awareness of divided interests? What if they had released some long asked for FiS changes at the same time? Do you think that there would have been more mollified people?
Do you really see CSM with all its bias being good coverage for the game or do you think like me that it is another Incarna blind spot of CCP's? Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
SMT008
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
378
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:33:00 -
[274] - Quote
Here's the list of CSM7 candidates :
SkipperMonkey : Not a bloc candidate Riverini : Init, might be supported by part of Team Tech Korvin : [BEST] Alliance. Never saw this dude, nor his alliance. Two Step : Not a bloc candidate Greene Lee : -A- candidate, definetly a bloc candidate. Trebor : Not a bloc candidate. Mu'ad Dhiib : Not a bloc candidate. Prometheus Exenthal : Not a bloc candidate. Draco Llasa : Supported by Init, might be a bloc candidate. Xenuria : ****** with a hat, not a bloc candidate. Corebloodbrothers : not a bloc candidate. Tiger Would : Not a bloc candidate. Sollana : Not a bloc candidate (CVA is not a power bloc) Lyris Nairn : Definetly a bloc candidate, but also the Sky Captain of My Heart. Dovinian : Bloc candidate from TEST. Mintrolio : Not a bloc candidate. Alekseyev Karrde : Not a bloc candidate. Vincent Athena : Not a bloc candidate. PsychoBitch : Not a bloc candidate. The Mittani : Definetly a bloc candidate from GSF. Also a chairman4life. Mike Azariah : Not a bloc candidate. Meissa Anunthiel : Not a bloc candidate. Roc Wieler : Not a bloc candidate. Darius III : Not a bloc candidate. His bloc have been...savagely ripped to pieces. leboe : Not really a bloc candidate. Issler Dainze : Not a bloc candidate. Skye Aurorae : Not a bloc candidate. UAxDEATH : Bloc candidate. Kelduum Revaan : Not a bloc candidate. T'amber Anomandari Demaleon : Not a bloc candidate. Fon Revedhort : I don't think Darkside is in any powerbloc ? So...Not a bloc candidate. michael boltonIII : bloc candidate from TEST. Blake Armitage : Not a bloc candidate. Voloses : Bloc candidate. StarConquer212 : Not a bloc candidate. Elise Randolph : Bloc candidate. Seleene : Bloc candidate. Blackberry Bold : Not a bloc candidate. Hans Jagerblitzen : Not a bloc candidate. Akirei Scytale : Bloc candidate.
That's 12 bloc candidates. Some of them are even purely comical.
28 Non-bloc candidates.
And you really think that CCP should add a "None of the candidates suit my needs" button ? I mean...If there were like 10 candidates or 15. But no. If you don't want to vote for a bloc candidate, you still have 28 possibilities. Isn't that enough ?
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Skye Aurorae
No Bull Ships
200
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:39:00 -
[275] - Quote
The obvious way to abstain is to vote for a candidate that legally is denied a place on the ballot - there's a 7 year old girl standing, think of what a statement that would make. Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21, so.. Vote for Scott Manley / Skye Aurorae for CSM 7 An Expert in Dealing with Childish Arguments Over Toys. http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=458 |
Jenshae Chiroptera
467
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:53:00 -
[276] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Here's the list of CSM7 candidates :
And you really think that CCP should add a "None of the candidates suit my needs" button ? I mean...If there were like 10 candidates or 15. But no. If you don't want to vote for a bloc candidate, you still have 28 possibilities. Isn't that enough ?
Realistically, who is going to win? Regardless of that, it does not matter how benign the candidate is, I believe this work is not suitable for any players.
Skye Aurorae wrote:The obvious way to abstain is to vote for a candidate that legally is denied a place on the ballot - there's a 7 year old girl standing, think of what a statement that would make. I have already taken the only option available to me and actively abstained. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 16:54:00 -
[277] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:End result ot the debate is that there are players who wish for an active "none of the above" option as to let CCP see howmany would actually vote that and take that into their calculations. CSM candidates feel threatened?
What makes you think CCP cares about that information?
Think about it - it's extremely easy to participate in this whole system. Voting is beyond simple, you have 14 days to do it on any number of accounts you have that qualify. Running is almost as easy, as the only two barriers of entry are "are you 21?" and "can you legally travel to Iceland?".
A vote of "none of the above" is really saying "I'm too lazy to run, too lazy to solicit any of the 28 certified candidates from just about every corner of the galaxy, but certainly not too lazy to whine about it". How valuable is any of that to CCP at the end of the day?
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Jenshae Chiroptera
467
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:56:00 -
[278] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote: A vote of "none of the above" is really saying "I'm too lazy to run, too lazy to solicit any of the 28 certified candidates from just about every corner of the galaxy, but certainly not too lazy to whine about it". How valuable is any of that to CCP at the end of the day?
No. I believe that all players in CSM capacity is bad for EVE, self included. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 16:59:00 -
[279] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Snow Axe wrote: A vote of "none of the above" is really saying "I'm too lazy to run, too lazy to solicit any of the 28 certified candidates from just about every corner of the galaxy, but certainly not too lazy to whine about it". How valuable is any of that to CCP at the end of the day?
No. I believe that all players in CSM capacity is bad for EVE, self included.
Good for you. CCP clearly doesn't, hence the CSM existing. So we're right back to the "why do you think they care about your opinion?" point. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
467
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:02:00 -
[280] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote: Good for you. CCP clearly doesn't, hence the CSM existing. So we're right back to the "why do you think they care about your opinion?" point.
"Why do you think they care about anyone's opinion?" Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:04:00 -
[281] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Snow Axe wrote: Good for you. CCP clearly doesn't, hence the CSM existing. So we're right back to the "why do you think they care about your opinion?" point.
"Why do you think they care about anyone's opinion?"
They're paying yearly to fly some of them to Iceland for the 7th time. That's a good sign they at least somewhat care. Even if they didn't care and this is all PR, what skin is it off your back?
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Jenshae Chiroptera
467
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:13:00 -
[282] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:... if they didn't care and this is all PR, ?
Then I would be happier. Time and again, I have seen games eroded by vocal short sighted players. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 17:28:00 -
[283] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Then I would be happier. Time and again, I have seen games eroded by vocal short sighted players.
And far more often, I have seen short-sighted devs with no idea what players actually *do* in game ruin a game completely.
A good recent example - some devs spent 2 years focusing on this expansion that even at best would have added nothing but fluff, ignored the core game and very nearly lost the entire thing because of it. You might have heard of it, it was called Eve Online. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
467
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:36:00 -
[284] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote: And far more often, I have seen short-sighted devs with no idea what players actually *do* in game ruin a game completely.
A good recent example - some devs spent 2 years focusing on this expansion that even at best would have added nothing but fluff, ignored the core game and very nearly lost the entire thing because of it. You might have heard of it, it was called Eve Online.
For all those years they had CSM and look what good that did them!
Emergency meeting was a result of the riots and all they had to do was repeat what was very loud and clear all over the forums. GMs, could have done that quicker with less cost. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 17:45:00 -
[285] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:For all those years they had CSM and look what good that did them!
Wait, I thought you would be happy to see the CSM worthless and ignored?
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Emergency meeting was a result of the riots and all they had to do was repeat what was very loud and clear all over the forums. GMs, could have done that quicker with less cost.
GM's would have been able to report how angry people are, sure, and their usefulness would have ended there. Would they have known to push CCP to put some very immediate focus on the whole Flying in Space thing as that's what people were truly angry about?
Also as an aside, why the hell do you care about "less cost" to CCP? Do you really think they're so stupid that they'd be flying a group of players to a foreign country if consulting their GM's had the same effect? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
467
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Posted - 2012.03.07 18:16:00 -
[286] - Quote
GMs only needed to read, think logically and consolodate the reasons why the players were angry. These abilities are not unique to players.
As for CSM, I am hoping it is just some glamour, drama, celebrity, PR stunt.
The key is that GMs would be impartial and not try to direct the game into conscious or subconscious bias that would be detrimental to the over all game in the long term. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 18:21:00 -
[287] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:The key is that GMs would be impartial and not try to direct the game into conscious or subconscious bias that would be detrimental to the over all game in the long term.
The only way a GM's opinion would be even somewhat useful to CCP would be if they were still actively playing the game, which means not only would they be subject to the same biases as the current CSM players, it'd be even harder to weed out as their biases would be obfuscated by their roles, as opposed to the system we have now, where factions are out in the open, making blatant attempts to one-up your adversaries easy to spot and shoot down. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
467
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Posted - 2012.03.07 18:26:00 -
[288] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote: The only way a GM's opinion would be even somewhat useful to CCP would be if they were still actively playing the game, ...
By that token you can say that the null sec focused players must be automatically disregarded when ever an aspect to do with other parts of space is brought up; as they are not actively playing there.
It does not take more than an average understanding to see why an idea is logically sound. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
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Posted - 2012.03.07 18:30:00 -
[289] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:By that token you can say that the null sec focused players must be automatically disregarded when ever an aspect to do with other parts of space is brought up; as they are not actively playing there.
It doesn't make their opinion irrelevant (as they may well have played that aspect of the game, or currently participate in it), but it does mean that people who actively DO participate in that part of the game should definitely be taken more seriously. Hence why it's a good idea to find a candidate that plays what you do and back them, OR run yourself. Abstaining like this is a good way to ensure that the CSM becomes totally unbalanced, which nobody wants.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:It does not take more than an average understanding to see why an idea is logically sound.
This says more about your struggles on this topic than I'm sure you wanted to admit. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
467
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Posted - 2012.03.07 20:28:00 -
[290] - Quote
If anyone is looking for the point before the Goony Toon arrived it is here.
Snow Axe wrote: Blah blah
The CSM will always be unbalanced due to the nature of people and the way that this game is structured.
GMs would be impartial and it does not take long for them to mess around a bit in Jove space enough to understand when player suggestions make sense or not. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
234
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Posted - 2012.03.07 20:41:00 -
[291] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: The CSM will always be unbalanced due to the nature of people and the way that this game is structured.
GMs would be impartial and it does not take long for them to mess around a bit in Jove space enough to understand when player suggestions make sense or not.
Aaaahahahahahaha. This thread is the gift that keeps on giving. Never give up, little bat. Never stop posting things like this. Can't wait for the video of 2000+ GMs reenacting last night's battle in C-J6MT so they can understand any player suggestions that come up about it.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
468
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Posted - 2012.03.07 23:13:00 -
[292] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote: Aaaahahahahahaha. This thread is the gift that keeps on giving. Never give up, little bat. Never stop posting things like this. Can't wait for the video of 2000+ GMs reenacting last night's battle in C-J6MT so they can understand any player suggestions that come up about it.
Heaven forbid that anyone could make a to scale experiment and study. I am sure it is also impossible to eaves drop, record or re-enact with bots. There are no examples of this ever happening.
Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2323
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 00:11:00 -
[293] - Quote
Vote 'abstain' now: http://t.co/A8hmt7fh "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
PsychoBitch
Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo
171
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 00:30:00 -
[294] - Quote
Read the complete Platform here: http://www.eve-online-dark-taboo.com/vote/
If you want your vote to count just once in EVE vote for PsychoBitch.
Sick of CCP devs and their hair-brained, half-baked, blue-balled ideas?
Sick of self-important fat puds and frail half-elves on the CSM?
Sick of things in eve that should have been fixed A G E S ago not being fixed
and new errors being introduced daily?
Make your one vote count finally, vote for PsychoBitch!
If you are voting for someone who has been in the CSM before - you have wasted your vote on F A I L
Don't be a failure, be a hero. Vote for PsychoBitch now!
Campaign Song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnOZAEbk7r0
If you don't drink whiskey - VOTE FOR SOMEONE ELSE If you don't like having sex with women - VOTE FOR SOMEONE ELSE If you don't live life on your own terms - VOTE FOR SOMEONE ELSE
THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW IN LIFE - ANYTHING WRITTEN BELOW IGNORE
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