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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.02.13 19:37:00 -
[31]
Originally by: KISOGOKU STFU ,if you are running massive attack/score/Unauthorized Military Presence/stop the thieves in a raven instead a NH you have no clue, please stop the reply to evrything.Btw my wallet is disagree with Op who could be ,did not you even look to quete? stop the trolling forums
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
Not sure who you're disagreeing with, but running Lvl 4 missions in a Raven, not a Nighthawk, .
What on earth are you doing to make so little ISK running level 4s? I can pull in 150-200M in an evening without trying all that hard. I've made 300M in a (long) day, not even counting LPs, saved loot, salvage and storyline implants (call it 350M worth overall?), although that was pretty tiring. That was with an Arby Cruise/T1 hardener/T2 other fitted 3x CCC CNR. Nice, but nothing really exceptional. (Now it's dread fitted and goes through missions a little faster ;o).
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.13 19:43:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: KISOGOKU STFU ,if you are running massive attack/score/Unauthorized Military Presence/stop the thieves in a raven instead a NH you have no clue, please stop the reply to evrything.Btw my wallet is disagree with Op who could be ,did not you even look to quete? stop the trolling forums
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
Not sure who you're disagreeing with, but running Lvl 4 missions in a Raven, not a Nighthawk, .
What on earth are you doing to make so little ISK running level 4s? I can pull in 150-200M in an evening without trying all that hard. I've made 300M in a (long) day, not even counting LPs, saved loot, salvage and storyline implants (call it 350M worth overall?), although that was pretty tiring. That was with an Arby Cruise/T1 hardener/T2 other fitted 3x CCC CNR. Nice, but nothing really exceptional. (Now it's dread fitted and goes through missions a little faster ;o).
See, I'm not the only one.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Aarin Wrath
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Posted - 2008.02.13 19:50:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kale Kold
The solution: move ALL lvl4 missions into lowsec.
This would both get more targets into lowsec and add that element of risk to carebear mission runners. Lets get things moving on this and start asking CCP for change.
Balance if ever i saw it!
Yeah, sorry but it won't work. This idea always comes up in every "boost lowsec" thread, and it is inevitably shot down.
The main counterpoints:
1. All lvl4 runners will just grind lvl3 missions.
2. They made special lvl5 missions for lowsec only ... and those have not moved any of the high sec runners to lowsec. How would this be any different?
3. Carebears don't want risk, all you will achieve by moving lvl4s to lowsec is make them quit eve. Yay less money for CCP!
4. The vast majority of high quality lvl4 agents are already in lowsec.
5. Runner rewards are already alot higher for lowsec runners. (much more LP + much higher mission payouts + much higher chance of faction loot from "boss" rats)
Bottom line: These high sec carebears are 100% risk averse. You force them into a risk situation by moving thier bread and butter to lowsec, and they will just cancel thier subscription.
Forcing a play style on them will not work.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.02.13 19:52:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: KISOGOKU STFU ,if you are running massive attack/score/Unauthorized Military Presence/stop the thieves in a raven instead a NH you have no clue, please stop the reply to evrything.Btw my wallet is disagree with Op who could be ,did not you even look to quete? stop the trolling forums
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
Not sure who you're disagreeing with, but running Lvl 4 missions in a Raven, not a Nighthawk, .
What on earth are you doing to make so little ISK running level 4s? I can pull in 150-200M in an evening without trying all that hard. I've made 300M in a (long) day, not even counting LPs, saved loot, salvage and storyline implants (call it 350M worth overall?), although that was pretty tiring. That was with an Arby Cruise/T1 hardener/T2 other fitted 3x CCC CNR. Nice, but nothing really exceptional. (Now it's dread fitted and goes through missions a little faster ;o).
See, I'm not the only one.
I can only assume that he's trying counter-propaganda to oppose any arguments that L4s be nerfed or moved to lo-sec.
Either that or he's just blitzing missions rather inefficiently, and not counting his LPs.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.13 19:56:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Malcanis I can only assume that he's trying counter-propaganda to oppose any arguments that L4s be nerfed or moved to lo-sec.
Either that or he's just blitzing missions rather inefficiently, and not counting his LPs.
Could be on the first point.
On the second point, hell, I wasn't counting my LPs either. I haven't even looked yet to see how many I have.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Traidor Disloyal
Minmatar Racketeers
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Posted - 2008.02.13 19:57:00 -
[36]
Lets beat the crap out of this dead horse some more!
to the OP: My favorite targets in high sec are carebear mission runners. And now you want to place those poor defenseless people out in low sec with mission fitted ships? Clubbed any baby seals lately?
--------------------------------------------- Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot |
Ragnar Darkstar
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:02:00 -
[37]
As a relatively new player, I have to say that one of the turn-off's for me in regards to lowsec is that it is unrealistic, and that the unrealistic features make it not fun. I see lowsec in RP terms as a kind of frontier. IRL, frontiers usually have safe spots dotting an untamed wilderness. When you were at the 7th Cavalry's fort, you were safe. In between that fort and the next fort you were vulnerable. In Eve, you have the equivalent of the natives perma-camping the 7th Cavalry. The U.S. Government would not have tolerated that in 1870, and it is unrealistic that the Eve empires allow pirates to perma-camp their stargates and starbases. If there is one constant in the universe it is that bureaucrats hate any challenge to their authority.
Further, this dynamic makes lowsec seem not fun. With gatecamping, the combat dynamic is basically "avoid or die." And while there are ways to avoid camps, such as using the map (boring) an alt (not that involved in this game) or a large gang (takes a lot of effort, and probably still not safe from the larger pirate gangs), these aren't really appealing to casual gamers like myself. And I suspect that I am not alone. I believe a lot of people who mission tend to do so alone or in small groups, even those who may have a main in a large 0.0 corp. If you really want more people in lowsec you need to make it possible that they have a good chance at survival solo or in small groups. If it were up to me, I'd make gate and station guns powerful enough to pretty much omgwtfpwn anything within an exclusion zone of say 50-100km. If you wanted to yarr you'd have to scan people out or catch them in a belt. This would make lowsec both more appealing to the empire folk like myself, and more realistic.
However, I realize that camping has become such a large part of lowsec pirate life that this idea will be about as popular as a preacher at a *****house. So in that case I think the best solution is to do nothing. I moved to Eve from another online game (astroempires) specifically because I could play casually, and Eve was advertised to me as a sandbox where I could do what I want. Forcing those like me into the lowsec gank-fest against our will is not how Eve was advertised to me, and not what I want to play. I have a very busy job IRL (in fact, I shouldn't even be posting this) and the big attraction of Eve for me was that I could dock in an NPC station and deal with RL for days or even weeks at a time. The two hours I would spend in a safe spot in lowsec avoiding the roving pirate gang would be all of my playing time in a given day, or even a given week. If you want to "fix" lowsec, you need to do it in a way that makes people want to come there, not simply forcing the empire lambs into the gank-fest slaughter. That's my 2 cents. |
Hephaesteus
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:15:00 -
[38]
Oh man, I can't believe this old chestnut has risen again.
Obviously you never read the Motsu Gazette today, the headline was
PVPERS USE MISSIONS TO FUND PVP CALDARI NAVY SAY THEY ARE SHOCKED
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Cat Gilligan
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:21:00 -
[39]
Most people who complain about hisec are usually pirates who just want more people to gank.
Why not pirate in hisec instead of lowsec, where there is more risk for the reward? :)
Now I like to pvp in lowsec, and I go there. But the fact of the matter is that you have to do pve to support your pvp.
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Pantaloon McPants
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:22:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Pantaloon McPants on 13/02/2008 20:22:41 Dont talk to me about risk vs reward you pleb low sec pirate scum, why dont you take your risk vs reward and go play in 0.0 space. If anything they should just get rid of low sec waste of space and turn it into 0.0 or empire space so all that useless space can get used up and lighten the server load.
Theres a reason that 83.345% of eve players are in empire space and its not because of the clean water and disease free women. Some of us just want to log in shoot some rats, make some isk, buy some nice toys without getting constantly kicked in the balls and starting from scratch because some fat faced pirate and his drunken yob mates camped your mission system gate for 12hrs.
Pirates grow some balls and go pirate in 0.0
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:29:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Pantaloon McPants Theres a reason that 83.345% of eve players are in empire space and its not because of the clean water and disease free women.
That certainly does help though. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!) |
Vikarion
Caldari United Heavens
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:30:00 -
[42]
While I don't have anything against pirates, I do have to say that I get a little bit angry when I see these threads come up, because they are basically about one group of players (pirates, etc) wanting to make another group of players (carebears) adjust their playing style to fit the pirates.
People don't like losing their ships. That's why they stay in hi-sec space. It's not hard to figure out. There are already plenty of ways to lose stuff in hi-sec, why should someone who doesn't want to risk more be forced to risk more?
You say that the risk/reward system is out of balance with missions. Well, with a hulk/mackinaw I can make about 10-20 million an hour, in hi-sec, without much risk if I use a hauler alt. Should asteroid belts be moved to low-sec as well?
Why not just make hi-sec space low-sec, then?
Running level 4 missions is much less profitable than ratting in 0.0, or even running missions in 0.0. Complexes in hi-sec are much less profitable than those in 0.0. The same is true for mining, and just about everything else. The reason carebears are not in 0.0 is because they are willing to accept the lesser income for the trade-off of less risk.
Why should they be forced to play your game? --------
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Kahega Amielden
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:33:00 -
[43]
They're not comparing 0.0 and hisec, it's lowsec and hisec.
Lowsec should be more profitable than hisec if you can accept the risk. I think this is mostly fine. From what I've heard from a friend of mine who missions in .3, it's extremely profitable compared to hisec.
Ratting is obviously more popular.
The cosmic anomalies are more profitable.
And the exploration is better.
The thing is, to do a corp mining op in lowsec, you need guards, rather than just miners and haulers. This means you'll have fewer miners.
I'm wondering if the solution might just be to boost the asteroids in lowsec.
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Vikarion
Caldari United Heavens
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:37:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden They're not comparing 0.0 and hisec, it's lowsec and hisec.
You are, of course, correct. However, I was just pointing out that there already is a sliding scale between hi-sec and 0.0, with low-sec in the middle. Complexes and missions in low-sec are much more profitable than those in hi-sec. Believe me, I'd love faction loot, but I'd love to keep my ship even more.
To be honest, I support boosting low-sec, but not by nerfing hi-sec. It's already nerfed enough. --------
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2008.02.13 21:39:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
I seem to be able to do lvl 4 missions in a standard Raven with T1 launchers and T2 tank with no problem what so ever. Perhaps I'm doing them wrong?
Yeah, I can do them in a T1 Dominix with T1 gear. I guess I'm doing it wrong too. :(
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2008.02.13 21:42:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Malcanis What on earth are you doing to make so little ISK running level 4s? I can pull in 150-200M in an evening without trying all that hard. I've made 300M in a (long) day, not even counting LPs, saved loot, salvage and storyline implants (call it 350M worth overall?), although that was pretty tiring. That was with an Arby Cruise/T1 hardener/T2 other fitted 3x CCC CNR. Nice, but nothing really exceptional. (Now it's dread fitted and goes through missions a little faster ;o).
My problem is that I can barely manage to do one Level 4 mission a night before I'm bored to tears. I'm sure I could make money if I grinded missions, but I'd rather a) shoot myself in the head or b) buy, then sell a GTC. Working at my real job is more fun than doing missions and is more efficient.
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Rollotamasi
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Posted - 2008.02.13 21:43:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kale Kold Me and my mate was thinking today about the risk versus reward to carebear mission runners. We all know that lvl4 missions have a good payout and lots of people run them with little or no risk.
We also know that CCP and players would like to see more people in lowsec.
The solution: move ALL lvl4 missions into lowsec.
This would both get more targets into lowsec and add that element of risk to carebear mission runners. Lets get things moving on this and start asking CCP for change.
Balance if ever i saw it!
This would not get more targets into low sec. This would mean people would stop running lvl 4's. Want more targets? War dec someone. Hell, convo me in game and I will give you a list of 0.0 sectors with tons of people in them. The problem is that you don't want quality targets to PvP with, You simply want more easy targets. I know this because if you weren't just looking for easy targets you wouldn't want mission runners seeing as how mission fittings generally aren't good for PvP.
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Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.02.13 21:43:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kale Kold Me and my mate was thinking today about the risk versus reward to carebear mission runners. We all know that lvl4 missions have a good payout and lots of people run them with little or no risk.
We also know that CCP and players would like to see more people in lowsec.
The solution: move ALL lvl4 missions into lowsec.
This would both get more targets into lowsec and add that element of risk to carebear mission runners. Lets get things moving on this and start asking CCP for change.
Balance if ever i saw it!
I'm guessing you've never seen balance then, as what you propose isn't it.
Engaging a PvE fitted ship who has already been aggroed by twenty or more hostile NPCs can be loads of fun, but it isn't balanced in the slightest.
The loss of corp status for failing a mission is imbalanced by design - the penalty for failing a level 4 can be pretty harsh.
I could go on, but others in this thread have touched on most of the salient points.
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Corstaad
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Posted - 2008.02.13 22:10:00 -
[49]
I think it wouldn't matter they'd just start doing L3's in High Sec. Its just a fact they like that part of the game really. Its to bad people don't give low sec a chance I remeber huge "carebear" types playing on a FFA type games when they didn't have to. Ask them why and they said they enjoyed the risk and reward that comes with it.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.02.13 22:14:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Frug
Originally by: Vagel to actually DO the level 4's, you need to make a major investment in faction gear/rigs/faction ship
Not if you're good at eve. All you need is some t2 shields. Sorry.
Also, a CNR makes it easy and only costs 500million.
No, you most definitely have to spend 2-3bil fitting a normal raven and take it through lowsec, then believe the local pirates when they say that you're safe to jump when they let your scout go through all day long
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Originally by: Praxis1452 you win eve
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Mika Meroko
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Posted - 2008.02.13 22:36:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Mika Meroko on 13/02/2008 22:41:02
edit: removed reference about traders.... nothing special about traders.. move along...
OP needs to do some research before posting on the forum, lest he make himself look stupid...
heres the list of stuff said so far, and yeah...
1) Lvl 5 missions are low sec only... those missions have the highest payout... 2) the BEST lvl 4 agents ARE already in low sec...the BEST (expensive)LP store items are from the pirate factions.. and guess what?... they are 0.0 3) exploration sites in low are already more profitable... if you hit radar/ladar/mag sites. 4) if the lvl 5 missions and lvl 4 best agents are already in low sec.... and people STILL dont come to low sec... moving stuff wont work... ppl just move to lvl 3s or out the door instead..(yay... less lag for everybody?...)
for all the reasons above.. moving said lvl 4 missions wont accomplish your goal of getting more ppl in low sec, the ppl who wants to go are already there...
all you end up doing will be nerfing CCP's wallets and we will see posts like this in the subject in afew weeks:
"OMG LVL 3 MISSIONS PAYS TOO MUCH!!!! NERF THEM!!!!! MOVE THEM TO LOW SEC!!!!"
now as for the "risk vs reward"
5) pssst... Risk vs reward.. my butt... I can risk a 60 mill ship and kill an mission runner who's already busy with npc rats very EASILY... my risk 60 mill ish (scorpion and cheap Ewar stuff..."jam, scram thank you npc rats...") mission runner's risk... atleast 100 million + standings....
(even after insurance, the mission runner STILL risks more than I do...and the reward part is already sliding to the pirate... =P )
6) if you think risk vs reward in a pirate (pvp) vs mission runner (pve fit) 1 on 1 isnt in favor of the pirate.. you need to consider whats going on then... the only problem with hunting mission runners in a pvp set up would be a) mission runner docks when you show up in mission 100km away. b) mission runner managed to stabbed himself and get away (while nerfing his range and locking speed) and the mission aggro gets ya...
but yeah, pvp set up beats missioner's pve set up any day...
(btw, my set up involves a rack of heavy Energy Neutralizers, scrambler, cap booster (to keep the neuts running) and alot of ECM jammers... I dont do the dmg myself per say... but this setup is enough to hold them down and break most tanks for npcs rats to pwnt said mission runner...)
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.02.13 22:42:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Vagel to actually DO the level 4's, you need to make a major investment in faction gear/rigs/faction ship
lol? I just want to be one of the many who will tell you what an idiot you are.
I do all L4 missions in a T2 Drake.
/makes fart noise
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.02.13 22:45:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Kale Kold Me and my mate was thinking today about the risk versus reward to carebear mission runners. We all know that lvl4 missions have a good payout and lots of people run them with little or no risk.
We also know that CCP and players would like to see more people in lowsec.
The solution: move ALL lvl4 missions into lowsec.
I already do ALL my lvl4 missions in lowsec. For about 1.5 years now. Only had one single loss due to pirates. Obviously the risk-vs-reward must be screwed up. Move ALL lvl4 missions to 0.0!
People missioning in high-sec has nothing to do with risk and reward. Google a bit about human decision making behaviour, looking at things like gain-frames and loss frames in particular. Most people avoid risks irrationally much so. If low-sec had double the income and double the losses, most people still would not mission there even though the net outcome is the same. It's just how people are... ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.02.13 22:46:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Vagel to actually DO the level 4's, you need to make a major investment in faction gear/rigs/faction ship
lol? I just want to be one of the many who will tell you what an idiot you are.
I do all L4 missions in a T2 Drake.
Actually, I did most lvl4 missions in my Crusader before I could fly a decent battleship. Perfectly doable. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Mika Meroko
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Posted - 2008.02.13 22:50:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Merdaneth
People missioning in high-sec has nothing to do with risk and reward. Google a bit about human decision making behaviour, looking at things like gain-frames and loss frames in particular. Most people avoid risks irrationally much so. If low-sec had double the income and double the losses, most people still would not mission there even though the net outcome is the same. It's just how people are...
This guy gets a cookeh...
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Ja'kar
MAFIA
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Posted - 2008.02.13 22:52:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Ja''kar on 13/02/2008 22:52:00 mispost
I agree - with Marcus
Also why not give low 4.5 mission runners or just way better rewards that will be fair I think
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.02.13 22:58:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Merdaneth People missioning in high-sec has nothing to do with risk and reward.
I think effort vs. reward is a more important variable. I can't tell you how many times I threw away ISK in Eve because I'm lazy.
/makes fart noise
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Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.02.13 23:02:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina basically, what it boils down to:
- If they move L4s to low-sec, carebears whine and/or quit, CCP loses money
- If they make low-sec safe, pirates/antipirates whine and/or quit, 0.0 people will demand more people move out of empire and into 0.0, carebears demand 0.0 is made safer first, risk vs reward, etc.
Any change on CCPs part will likely cost them lost revenue, basically, which is why they're probably not doing anything. I'm not sure what the real solution is, but seeing this game tumble to PvE carebear fluffy haven would be saddening.
I agree on that a small group of players would quit when CCP adjust the balance between the security-areas. They would probably loose a few subscribtions if you look at it in a short period. However if you step back and take a look at a longer period then it'd probably be a different picture. Increasing the rewards in high-sec would make Eve more geared to the other MMORPG's on the market, those which you don't have to risk very much to earn alot of money. This probably would mean that when the next space-oriented mmorpg comes it'll have a greater imact on Eve's survivability. Alot of players today play Eve because its harsh enviroment, i think these people wouldn't quit if CCP nerfed highsec. A few highsec-people would probably quit but CCP would maintain and strengthen one major USP (Uniquie selling point) that Eve got. On a long term, nerfing high-sec probably would have very positive effects on CCP's revenues.
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Pantaloon McPants
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Posted - 2008.02.14 00:32:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Pantaloon McPants on 14/02/2008 00:32:13
Originally by: Rawr Cristina Alot of players today play Eve because its harsh enviroment, i think these people wouldn't quit if CCP nerfed highsec. A few highsec-people would probably quit but CCP would maintain and strengthen one major USP (Uniquie selling point) that Eve got.
If allot of players play eve because of its harsh enviroment, why is most of eve in High Sec space?? If your low sec system is empty of big fat targets maybe you should consider moving to a new one, problem solved, unless your to comfy where you are and prefer your targets to come to you?
Maybe instead of ganking every pod or noobie that comes through to check out low sec you can let the systems fill up a bit, then pick off targets every now and then. I guess your kb stats are to important.
So now you want all of high sec to suffer because you have no targets? Maybe stop taking the easy route and become a ANTI-PIRATE and clear out some of these zones and make them safe for a change, wouldnt that be nice.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.02.14 01:21:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin How do all those npc's get in highsec anyways
They get there using pirate / smuggling stargates that we can't use WTF CCP!!
Quote: also lvl4's to lowsec isn't the answer as some have stated they'll just run lvl3's. Dynamic agent quality based on the agents relative use is the answer.
/signed for the, ummm, 15th time?
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